EPTBefore the patch i had a 25-0 streak vs Toss with this strategy, since the patched i tried it like 10 times and won maybe 1 or 2 games more likely because my opponent screwed it.
[G] TvP 2 Thor Push - Page 20
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LimboMessiah
Germany8 Posts
Before the patch i had a 25-0 streak vs Toss with this strategy, since the patched i tried it like 10 times and won maybe 1 or 2 games more likely because my opponent screwed it. | ||
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Ironsights
United States196 Posts
I'm at work now so can't post any new replays, but the thor push is still viable. All the patch did was make it to where melee units would target SCVs that got in the way, stalekrs and immortals and other ranged units still target the thor. I have had admittedly less success with the push, but no where near the levels of failure you are discribing. Part of that is the patch, but most of it is the super fast 2-gate-robo builds i've been facing...thors outnumbered by immortals fall pretty hard. I do have a couple threads on blizzards forums that talk about the thor and have replays. I will post the links here so you can read and view if you wish. If linking to other forums is forbidden, I hope a mod will kindly remove those links and inform me of the transgression...I think such links are allowed but I do make mistakes. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1965618624 That link leads to a topic on going thor early push into air tech swap. Kind of fun and works well post patch: the early thor is not meant to win the game just deal some damage and make the Protoss spam zealots and immortals. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1869409550?page=1 That link leads to a topic specifically discussing the viability of Thor post 1.2 The replays are on page 2 Enjoy and happy gaming! | ||
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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kwantz
Canada65 Posts
same with zerg, but its is very successfull against all races I find. I dont thnik of this strat as a Toss only strat. | ||
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DayDayTV
Canada20 Posts
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On February 03 2011 19:56 DayDay87 wrote: Does this build/strategy still work after the patch that increased the threat for repairing SCVs? yes it does still work for me, but the successrate is lower than before the patch. but im still winning over 50% of my tvps where i use this build. | ||
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
On February 03 2011 21:52 Black Gun wrote: yes it does still work for me, but the successrate is lower than before the patch. but im still winning over 50% of my tvps where i use this build. 50% win rate is pretty sad if ur using a specialized strat..no offense lol..u mite as well use a generic BO. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
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YakiSOBA
30 Posts
I tend to highlight my entire army and attack move.. (I know I know, I should be hotkeying my unit groups!) But until I learn to do so... if I throw in SCV's into my army mix, and just click auto-repair, and then a-move the entire army... will the scv's be auto-repairing, or will they try to attack if the whole group is selected? Thanks! | ||
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Valestrum
United States246 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On February 09 2011 00:21 YakiSOBA wrote: Noobie question about scv's and repairing (with any mech, be it thors, tanks, etc). I tend to highlight my entire army and attack move.. (I know I know, I should be hotkeying my unit groups!) But until I learn to do so... if I throw in SCV's into my army mix, and just click auto-repair, and then a-move the entire army... will the scv's be auto-repairing, or will they try to attack if the whole group is selected? Thanks! They'll attack if they have nothing to repair, but as soon as there's something available for them to repair, they'll do that instead of attacking a unit. So yeah, basically they'll act as medics for your mech if you A-move with them. | ||
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YakiSOBA
30 Posts
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Parra
United States152 Posts
Also I wouldn't bring more than 5-6 Scv's for repair | ||
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
A +0/0 thor does 30+30 damage 60 total +1/0 thor does 35+35 damage 70 total +2/0 thor does 40+40 damage 80 total +3/0 thor does 45+45 edmage 90 total +3 attack upgrades increase thor damage to ground from 60 to 90, a increase of 50%? holy crap. its rare for any unit in this game to get that much of a percentage damage increase from upgrades. for example a zealot goes from 16 to 22 damage with 3 attack upgrades, a bonus of less than 50% and a higher percentage of zealot attack damage is knocked off with enemy armor than thors attacks a stalker goes from 10(14) to 13(17) damage with 3 attack upgrades. a increase of only 30% to unarmored and even less of a percentage against armored. you will not be massing thors in tvz or tvt. in both of those matchups you may get a couple thors however in both of those matchups you will always want to upgrade mech attack (for siege tanks) over mech armor every time so the only matchup where this is in question is in TvP in TvP do you upgrade thor attack or thor armor??? the best situation in tvp if you upgraded armor on thors is when zealots are attacking your thors. because armor hurts zealots the most of any protoss unit (except carriers which will not arrive) however even against zealots +attack is better than +armor. with +3 armor you can bring +3attack zealot damage from 20 to 14 against your thors, a benefit of i dont know how many percentage or with +3 armor upgrades you can make your thors deal 90 damage to zealots, essentially 2shotting them another reason why you shouldnt worry about zealots is because against protoss you want to lead with your thors (because they shred gateway units) with your marines behind the thors once zealots charge in on your thors, your marines and thors will quickly vaporize all the zealots. next you will be fighting collossi and stalkers with your thors and marines. keep your marines behind your thors and your thors should 2shot all of the stalkers quickly. the collossi must use their 9range to kite the thors because if any collossi get within 7range of a thor they will die to strike cannons. the problem is thors with +attack upgrades simply incinerate gateway armies so quickly that the thors will keep backing up until there is nowhere left to run behind the toss base then they get cannoned | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
On February 09 2011 16:54 roymarthyup wrote: You should always upgrade +attack on your thors over +armor A +0/0 thor does 30+30 damage 60 total +1/0 thor does 35+35 damage 70 total +2/0 thor does 40+40 damage 80 total +3/0 thor does 45+45 edmage 90 total +3 attack upgrades increase thor damage to ground from 60 to 90, a increase of 50%? holy crap. its rare for any unit in this game to get that much of a percentage damage increase from upgrades. for example a zealot goes from 16 to 22 damage with 3 attack upgrades, a bonus of less than 50% and a higher percentage of zealot attack damage is knocked off with enemy armor than thors attacks a stalker goes from 10(14) to 13(17) damage with 3 attack upgrades. a increase of only 30% to unarmored and even less of a percentage against armored. you will not be massing thors in tvz or tvt. in both of those matchups you may get a couple thors however in both of those matchups you will always want to upgrade mech attack (for siege tanks) over mech armor every time so the only matchup where this is in question is in TvP in TvP do you upgrade thor attack or thor armor??? the best situation in tvp if you upgraded armor on thors is when zealots are attacking your thors. because armor hurts zealots the most of any protoss unit (except carriers which will not arrive) however even against zealots +attack is better than +armor. with +3 armor you can bring +3attack zealot damage from 20 to 14 against your thors, a benefit of i dont know how many percentage or with +3 armor upgrades you can make your thors deal 90 damage to zealots, essentially 2shotting them another reason why you shouldnt worry about zealots is because against protoss you want to lead with your thors (because they shred gateway units) with your marines behind the thors once zealots charge in on your thors, your marines and thors will quickly vaporize all the zealots. next you will be fighting collossi and stalkers with your thors and marines. keep your marines behind your thors and your thors should 2shot all of the stalkers quickly. the collossi must use their 9range to kite the thors because if any collossi get within 7range of a thor they will die to strike cannons. the problem is thors with +attack upgrades simply incinerate gateway armies so quickly that the thors will keep backing up until there is nowhere left to run behind the toss base then they get cannoned This is not a good analysis because you haven't considered the repair rate. The thors are tanking damage for a longer time with armor upgrade and can thus be repaired for a longer time, adding more HP for the terran side, which in turn results in more damage for the terran side in the long run. I'm not saying armor is better at all times. If you have a superior T army the attack is better. If you dont use scv's for repair attack is better. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
lets for example assume that 6 zealots are attacking a thor, thats 84 dam per 1.2 seconds. lets assume that the scvs repair the thor by 54 hps per 1.2 seconds. this yields an effective dam of 30 per attack, which means that the zealots will take 1.2*10*1.333 = 16 seconds to kill the thor. now lets assume the thor has +1 armor upgrade. this means that the zealots will do 72 damage instead. this means that the effective dam after repair shrinks from 30 to 18. it now takes the zealots 26.66 seconds to kill the thor. thats an increase of 26.666/16 = 1.666. this means the survivability of the thor has increased by 66% by the one armor upgrade. now lets assume the thor gets an additional armor upgrade, +2 armor. the zealots now do 60 damage, and 6 after repair. this means it takes them 80 seconds to kill the thor. 80/26.6666 = 3. this means that the second armor upgrade increases the survivability of the thor by 200% compared to the thor with only one armor upgrade. this is a higher increase than from zero to one upgrade. with +3 armor, the zealots would not be able to kill the thor at all. in general, the formula is the following: time to kill a unit = hps/(dps - rps), where hps denots the units hit points, dps denotes the dam per second factoring in all upgrades and rps denotes the repair per second. more generally, the effect of armor is a function of the form c1/(x - armoreffect - c2), which is clearly nonlinear in the variable "armoreffect". the real problem ofc is that the dps of the opposing army is diminishing during a battle, so that the nonlinearity effect of repaired units doesnt play a large role early on, but tends to increase over time. a good example is the case of 2thor pushes before the patch. the opponents army was dwindling while the scvs remained repairing. at the end of the fight, he was left with too few units to kill off the thor. all the single units coming out from then on were not able to break the repair and got destroyed. armor upgrades speed up this process to the point where the nonlinearity kicks in significantly. to sum it up, this means that armor upgrades have the potential to yield infinite raise of efficiency, but they also have the potential to not do a lot. attack upgrades on the other hand have a constant effect on the efficiency of your army, but in general they only help if they reduce the amount of hits needed to kill a particular unit. the effect of armor upgrades, in particular if combined with repair, also depends on how quickly you kill off the opponent´s army´s firepower. this means that the question of whether attack or armor upgrades are better depends on the numbers and type of units on both sides of the battle aswell as on the attack and armor upgrades on both sides. tldr: there´s no general answer, and a comprehensive mathematical analysis is rather complicated, far too complicated to treat it in a short forum post. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
either wait at your natureal or wait for the thor to come into your base and a zealot heave army would be able to win since the scvs are also auto attacked | ||
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eXwOn
Canada351 Posts
10 supply depot 12 barracks 13 refinery 15 refinery 17 marine 17 supply depot 20 factory 21 marine 23 armoury 23 starport 23 reactor 23 hellion 25 supply depot 25 tech lab 25 thor 31 medivac-medivac 35 orbital command center 35 supply depot 35 thor 43 supply depot 43 tank-marine 49 tank-dropship-marine 49 supply depot 50 supply depot 55 marine 57 tank-dropship-dropship-marine marine-siege mode command center currently 120:40 in masters league using this strat. | ||
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SecretA5DC
Korea (South)225 Posts
On February 10 2011 03:44 eXwOn wrote: Hey man, I use a similar build in all TvX matchups, it goes a little like this: 10 supply depot 12 barracks 13 refinery 15 refinery 17 marine 17 supply depot 20 factory 21 marine 23 armoury 23 starport 23 reactor 23 hellion 25 supply depot 25 tech lab 25 thor 31 medivac-medivac 35 orbital command center 35 supply depot 35 thor 43 supply depot 43 tank-marine 49 tank-dropship-marine 49 supply depot 50 supply depot 55 marine 57 tank-dropship-dropship-marine marine-siege mode command center currently 120:40 in masters league using this strat. What do you with the units? Rush? Drop? Pressure? | ||
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