|
So I've been watching the GSL lately and it seems like Banshee harass is extremely popular. P and Z seem to have a real hard time dealing with it, banshees are exceedingly cheap, and tend to get 5-10 kills easily because P and Z can't deal with it.
When I watch the pros, the Z will try to defend with their queen, because they don't have any other anti-air units at that point in the game. The P will walk stalkers around and try to get shots off on it. Both are slow and tend not to kill the banshee unless the banshee gets overly aggressive. To my untrained eye, this seems like the wrong move.
So my question is, what is the correct way to prepare for and defend against banshee play? Should P get cannons or Z get spore crawlers, just in the mineral line? It would seem like the investment is well worth itself, rather than taking your army out of position.
|
There's a day[9] daily on this excact topic. Maybe you should watch that 
|
The socke-style pheonix opening basically completely nullifies banshee harass. You just need to have good map awareness and intercept the banshee as it moves out of the base before it has cloak. If he sits in his base until he gets cloak and moves out, it will have low energy and you can have detection in time.
A banshee with cloak is a big investment and even if it gets 5 kills it's still arguably not worth it. Build an obs and use stalkers if you don't want to go pheonix first and you'll be fine - same with queens + overseer. It seems like you're underrating how expensive a cloaked banshee is, and as a result, making it seem more effective than it really is. Getting a banshee + cloak (350/300) and only getting 5 worker kills isn't that fantastic at all.
|
Well, it usually just comes down to what is going on. If you make extra queens/stalkers you have units with additional capabilites (creeping, healing, injecting, fighting). If you make static D it subtracts from your army size. Sometimes it's needed not to die/lose large amounts of workers but you should only make it if you absolutely know you need it or it's going to decrease your army size for no reason. /thread
|
Banshee is after all used as an element of surprise. That's why you see the pros making great efforts trying to conceal the starport.
Keeping that in mind, if you scout a startport with tech lab before seeing any banshee on the map, then you are in a good shape. This is so provided that you played all your other cards right so far, meaning you have teched to lair, have a robo facility, etc...
Another thing is that if you are zerg and have good overlord placement, you can scout that banshee-in-route way before it's in your base.
|
On November 08 2010 17:15 azhp wrote:
The P will walk stalkers around and try to get shots off on it. Both are slow and tend not to kill the banshee unless the banshee gets overly aggressive.
Stalkers are actually faster than a banshee over open ground. 2.95 vs 2.75 speed.
|
For zerg, if you scout a possible banshee harass and you're not yet tier 2, get up 1 spore, link bases with creep and pump queens from all hatch. The spore's there for detection so don't expect it to do the fighting for you.
|
On November 08 2010 18:40 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
For zerg, if you scout a possible banshee harass and you're not yet tier 2, get up 1 spore, link bases with creep and pump queens from all hatch. The spore's there for detection so don't expect it to do the fighting for you.
This. Cannons/turrets/spores are more for detection than actually defending. I like to 1-1-1 sometimes and tech lab my starport for 1 banshee before switching it to the factory. i don't usually cloak it when i'm doing this. the idea is to build 1 banshee just to make my opponent nervous. while he's busy building anti air and static defense i get MMM and a few siege tanks and roll over his base. probably wont' work at higher levels but where i'm at it works very nicely
|
watch your mini map alot itll give you the edge you need to cut the banshees off
|
The problem is not with banshee, its that the counters to banshee take longer to get out then the banshee. So that first banshee or two (with or without cloak), are really really powerful because nothing that can effectivly counter it can come out in time. The primary counters are phoenix/blink stalker with an obs and muta. Muta takes sooo long to make. But once the counter actualy come out, they shut it down compleatly (other then maybe a little harras, but they will still usualy lose the banshee doing it then).
Later on in the game that banshee tech isnt very useful at all, so it kinda works out to even because they invested in someone that isnt useful late game at all, but got some damage done for doing it.
|
I play as toss, and it's become second nature to me to throw down a few cannons in my mineral line when going up vs terran. His natural turtling will make up for the extra costs I incur doing so. I don't know why everyone is so averse to static defenses all the time. I know not to go overboard, but vs banshees there's really no better solution.
|
On November 09 2010 02:21 obsid wrote:
The problem is not with banshee, its that the counters to banshee take longer to get out then the banshee. So that first banshee or two (with or without cloak), are really really powerful because nothing that can effectivly counter it can come out in time. The primary counters are phoenix/blink stalker with an obs and muta. Muta takes sooo long to make. But once the counter actualy come out, they shut it down compleatly (other then maybe a little harras, but they will still usualy lose the banshee doing it then).
Later on in the game that banshee tech isnt very useful at all, so it kinda works out to even because they invested in someone that isnt useful late game at all, but got some damage done for doing it.
it's true that banshees are expensive, which is why i don't like losing them. queens are usually a good deterrent unless i'm doing some kind of crazy early 2 starport cloak banshee silliness.
and i disagree about banshees not being useful late game. banshee harass is always good, keeps them on their toes and forces them to keep defenses in their base. sometimes i like a few banshees in my main army too. especially against like a chargelot/collosus ball.
|
On November 09 2010 02:21 obsid wrote:
The problem is not with banshee, its that the counters to banshee take longer to get out then the banshee. So that first banshee or two (with or without cloak), are really really powerful because nothing that can effectivly counter it can come out in time. The primary counters are phoenix/blink stalker with an obs and muta. Muta takes sooo long to make. But once the counter actualy come out, they shut it down compleatly (other then maybe a little harras, but they will still usualy lose the banshee doing it then).
Later on in the game that banshee tech isnt very useful at all, so it kinda works out to even because they invested in someone that isnt useful late game at all, but got some damage done for doing it.
Um...
Queens take longer to get than banshees? Stalkers take longer to get than banshees? Marines take longer to get than banshees?
Sorry but no.
|
It seems banshee harass into marine/banshee/raven is getting very popular these days vs protoss. Vs Terrans who quick tech to banshees (e.g. you see nothing but marines, no tech lab on barracks, early gasses, wall-in and bunker at choke, etc.) I usually 1 gate robo and chrono an observer to see what's up.
If it is banshees I toss down a stargate and forge, place 1 cannon in each mineral line if I have an expo (cheaper than making multiple observers for all your bases), make an extra observer for insurance and then split my stalkers around my mineral lines. Once phoenixes pop I try to snipe any banshees in their base and/or on the way to my base if I'm lucky.
Finally remember to transition into colossi during this period as you will need it to defend the marine/banshee/raven push. Zealot/sentry/colossi/phoenix will destroy his push.
|
I'd hardly consider banshee harass to be fool-proof. It can be easily repelled if you know its coming or even if you prepare accordingly versus terran.
Build additional queens as zerg.
Build stalkers and chrono out the first observer as toss.
Save a scan and have marines defend as terran.
|
the only trouble i have with the banshee harass is that even if you have a queen or two shooting a banshee theyll just let it take hits and still get 3-5 drones before pulling it away
|
For protoss, getting a single phoenix out will do wonders to the whole bancheese into marine banshee raven build since both of those units are light.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
