|
I'm a 1600pt Random Diamond player and I've been able to use this strategy quite successfully in my ladder matches.
Basically, the the Terran player just builds a normal 2-3 barrack build. (perhaps a slight change), and there's absolutely no sacrifice to economy. However, the Protoss player doesn't have any good early game units to crush marauders. 2 Marauders usually come out at about 4:30, and hit the opponents base at 5. (I actually think it's 30 seconds faster, but i forgot, you can watch the replay though).
The build order starts off the same, however, when the barracks is finished, immediately build a techlab. No marine. Once that's done, you'll have enough resources for 1 Marauder, concussive shell, and another barrack. Build those. Then once the first marauder is done, build a second, and once that's done, attack. Concussive shell should be finished by the time you push.
Replays: Sadly, I only have 3 against the same opponent, but rest assured, this rush has worked multiple times. He is a 1300 pt protoss player and knew the rush was going to hit every time. He still wasn't able to defend against it.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-163963.jpg)
Of course this rush is able to be shut down... if you chrono your army. But most protoss players won't do that if they don't expect it. If someone who's expecting this rush is losing, how do you expect someone that's unexpecting the rush to defend it? (then again, he was trying to play so he won't deviate from the standard protoss build order just to defend against my rush)
And realize this, this rush has negligible econ difference if it fails. I believe that this rush should be used in every TvP game. And if terran walls up, the protoss can't really punish him for not making that marine (assuming P didn't cheese).
P.S. If someone comes up with an all in Marauder Rush cheese, let me know. I'll be quite interested in that.
Enjoy my brothers.
-Stay Moist
|
zealot before stalker zealot infront of stalker micro your stalker and take 2-3 probes of min line as well if needed. Done push stopped. Very old beta rush strat for T very easy to hold off.
|
but if you dont build a marine, every protoss can scout ur marauder and prepare accordingly....
any comment on that?^^
|
On November 08 2010 11:13 MasterReY wrote:
but if you dont build a marine, every protoss can scout ur marauder and prepare accordingly....
any comment on that?^^
then perhaps terran players should just not build marines, and let the protoss player sacrifice his econ for a uselessly big army 
-Stay Moist
|
On November 08 2010 11:17 FarJeylZmun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 11:13 MasterReY wrote:
but if you dont build a marine, every protoss can scout ur marauder and prepare accordingly....
any comment on that?^^ then perhaps terran players should just not build marines, and let the protoss player sacrifice his econ for a uselessly big army
How will you kill the scouting probe without a marine OR a marauder? You're gonna have to make a ranged unit out of the rax or it won't die.
|
You basically just described the defacto 2 marauder, 1 marine poke vs. protoss early game. Getting a techlab before any marine is incredibly easy to scout (even with that super late scout of your protoss friend), and screams "oh hey, some marauders coming your way!". The scouting probe would be pretty annoying to get rid of if you wait that long for the first ranged unit to come out.
Second, the protoss player scouted it, saw "oh geeze, hes going to rush me", and... didn't do anything about it. 1 zeal and one stalker would have held the first 2 marauders fine, and the sentry would pop in time to ff the reinforcements while warpgates and immortals arrive. This push can be incredibly deadly to toss (esp. if 2 scvs come along and throw down a bunker), but its also not exactly new - most any protoss in diamond will have had a lot of experience vs. this poke.
Game 2, scouting at 18 food vs. terran? responding exactly the same? This is bad play, the poke really is pretty standard and the response to it is pretty standard. Build a zeal while the cybercore warps in, build a stalker, pull the stalker back if the zeal dies. Worst case, pull ~4 probes for added dps/tank.
|
Apparently this build is neither impressive nor original. But every time i use this strategy, it works out very well. It damages the protoss economy if he has to pull probes from the mineral line to use as meat shields.
yet i rarely see this stategy being used against me when im' playing PvT
-Stay Moist
|
On November 08 2010 11:19 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 11:17 FarJeylZmun wrote:On November 08 2010 11:13 MasterReY wrote:
but if you dont build a marine, every protoss can scout ur marauder and prepare accordingly....
any comment on that?^^ then perhaps terran players should just not build marines, and let the protoss player sacrifice his econ for a uselessly big army How will you kill the scouting probe without a marine OR a marauder? You're gonna have to make a ranged unit out of the rax or it won't die.
You're implying people have perfect scout micro from Bronze to 2500 Diamond.
|
no marine would let toss scout everything. Toss shouldnt have trouble holding this off if scouted. Even if you deny the in base scout, as long as they see you move out with marauders they will be fine.
3 rax, is sacrificing economy vs 1 rax fe or 2 rax FE which are econ builds, 3 rax if failed puts you behind most of the time.
|
Alright, I have a question for critics:
You're using for Chrono Boosts to rush Warp Gate, because early-game Toss is basically the Warp Gate. That tech is pretty much it. Every tactic and strategy uses the Warp Gate, don't deny it.
So you aren't using CB on units. If you're scouting on the 9 Pylon and you see the Rax being thrown down, then alright, cool. The Terran's playing standard, so I will too. You make a Gateway + Assimilator at the usual times, so does the Terran. As your Probe dances around their base, the Barracks completes, and a Tech Lab is immediately made.
Now, workers can't catch up to each other - your early scouting Probe sees all of this. As soon as your Gateway finishes, you build a Cyb Core right away. That's all completely standard. Furthermore, this fast Tech Lab may indicate Reapers. So you won't build a Zealot first because you know as a veteran player that you need a Stalker first.
So surprise surprise, a Marauder pops out and kills your Probe, and you don't know if the Marauder is on his way or the Terran is just building up an army to take his natural. The Cyb Core is complete, and you won't have time to make a Zealot AND a Stalker before the Marauder(s) arrive, if the Terran is attacking at all.
You have no idea what's going on - all you think you know is the Terran might be inclined for early aggression. You have energy saved up at your Nexus to CB the Warp Gate tech - do you delay WG research to get a fast Zealot out - a unit that you know is useless against a Marauder?
*** *** *** ***
The larger problem at work here is that Marauders are imbalanced against Warp Gate units in the early, mid, and late game. They're cheaper, harder hitting, faster attacking, and faster building. There is no down-side to the Terran massing Marauders. So the OP is simply asking the question: why not begin the carnage sooner rather than later?
Edit: I just said that the Marauder is imbalanced. I want to amend that - Marauders are not imbalanced against Gateway units, because Marauders are not supposed to be the same as Gateway units. In the same way that a single Phoenix is "imbalanced" against a single Mutalisk, Marauders are supposed to be better than Gateway units. They were made that way, and that's the way it is.
So, in the time span of 60 seconds, how can the Protoss player execute a deviation from standard play to anti-Marauder play? Because that's about how long it takes for a second Marauder to build and the pair of them to walk across the map. In 60 seconds, what can the Toss do?
|
Well it's kind old on the korean ladder and they use it with proxy rax for maximum efficiency, still very micro intensive and can be deadly or economic killer for the opponent if not scouted...
|
On November 08 2010 11:26 Kurdaj wrote:
Alright, I have a question for critics:
*** *** *** ***
The larger problem at work here is that Marauders are imbalanced against Warp Gate units in the early, mid, and late game. They're cheaper, harder hitting, faster attacking, and faster building. There is no down-side to the Terran massing Marauders. So the OP is simply asking the question: why not begin the carnage sooner rather than later?
mid and late game? lol have you heard of chargelots? It is a gateway unit and it rapes marauders. Dont go throwing the word imbalanced around.
|
mid and late game? lol have you heard of chargelots? It is a gateway unit and it rapes marauders. Dont go throwing the word imbalanced around.
I insist that Chargelots are not a counter to Marauders in the sense that, well, they don't.
It's never just Chargelots. It's Chargelots and Templar, or Collosus, or with something else. Chargelots by themselves cannot handle a Marauder ball. And so long as mid/late-game tech is being brought into play, then let's throw Medivacs and Terran Armor upgrades into the mix. And of course, Stim Packs.
I'm surprised you didn't just say "Immortals" and then lean back in your chair, content that the internet troll had been satisfactorily dealt with. Chargelots... pffft.
|
On November 08 2010 11:26 Kurdaj wrote:
Alright, I have a question for critics:
You're using for Chrono Boosts to rush Warp Gate, because early-game Toss is basically the Warp Gate. That tech is pretty much it. Every tactic and strategy uses the Warp Gate, don't deny it.
Now, workers can't catch up to each other - your early scouting Probe sees all of this. As soon as your Gateway finishes, you build a Cyb Core right away. That's all completely standard. Furthermore, this fast Tech Lab may indicate Reapers. So you won't build a Zealot first because you know as a veteran player that you need a Stalker first.
*** *** *** ***
Right, responding to what I find relevant, first bit was bolded by me for emphasis.
FALSE. Not every Protoss player will chrono their warp gate research; I personally prefer to chrono my first gateway to get out a zealot and stalker and do a quick ramp poke vs T players in case they're opting for some fast banshee/tank build. In fact, the kcdc 1gate fast expand pretty much devotes your chronoboosts to your 1 gateway so you can get a decent amount of units while expanding.
Which brings me to the 2nd point; this is with a normal 13 gate build and I can get 1 zealot out to either force an early reaper to kite while the stalker is almost done (usually 2/3rds to 3/4ths done when a fast reaper arrives), and will always be enough to have 1 stalker and 1 zealot with the 2nd stalker on the way if it's a 2 marauder push. Pulling 1-2 probes is sufficient if I mis-micro and lose the zealot before my 2nd one pops out from the gateway.
|
On November 08 2010 11:22 FarJeylZmun wrote:
Apparently this build is neither impressive nor original. But every time i use this strategy, it works out very well. It damages the protoss economy if he has to pull probes from the mineral line to use as meat shields.
yet i rarely see this stategy being used against me when im' playing PvT
Very unoriginal, in fact. As others have pointed out, this is the standard cookie-cutter poke that every Terran uses against Protoss except that you're skipping the marine. The only reason you wouldn't see this much is that you play random, meaning your opponents are unlikely to use race-specific early pokes.
|
If a terran doesn't know how to studder attack, they cannot kill the probe getting into their base if it's one marine. Not a horrible opening if it doesn't set you back though, as it does do damage.
|
diamond players seem to suck ass
|
As a Toss player, I can say that if I suspect any kind of aggression, I usually chrono boost out units before warpgate. If it is close positions on a 4 player map, I'll usually chrono boost out units instead of warpgate. Warpgate will finish regardless and if I'm not going for any timing push, why would I chrono boost warpgate research? It is essential but I'd probably just use a single chronoboost on it while the rest goes into my single gateway.
I can't say that every P will do this but that is what I usually do against T because I always expect early aggression either in the form of fast marines or MM ball and want as many units as I can quickly get out.
|
On November 08 2010 11:26 Kurdaj wrote:
I just said that the Marauder is imbalanced. I want to amend that - Marauders are not imbalanced against Gateway units, because Marauders are not supposed to be the same as Gateway units. In the same way that a single Phoenix is "imbalanced" against a single Mutalisk, Marauders are supposed to be better than Gateway units. They were made that way, and that's the way it is.
u just compared a marauder to a phoenix. that is retarded as hell. a phoenix utterly sucks vs anything thats not a mutalisk whereas the marauder can rape ALL armored units on top non armored units like zealots. blizzard cites the zealot as being the counter to marauders but this is a joke. marauders can kill an infinite amount of zealots with little micro. the marauder can do everything vs all toss ground making it cost effective and all purpose.
|
On November 08 2010 12:02 Eminent Rising wrote:
blizzard cites the zealot as being the counter to marauders but this is a joke. marauders can kill an infinite amount of zealots with little micro. the marauder can do everything vs all toss ground making it cost effective and all purpose.
From my experience, its like this
rauder<zealot<rauder+concussion<zealot+charge<rauder+shoot and scoot micro<good sentry support/colossi/HT
|
On November 08 2010 12:02 Eminent Rising wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 11:26 Kurdaj wrote:
I just said that the Marauder is imbalanced. I want to amend that - Marauders are not imbalanced against Gateway units, because Marauders are not supposed to be the same as Gateway units. In the same way that a single Phoenix is "imbalanced" against a single Mutalisk, Marauders are supposed to be better than Gateway units. They were made that way, and that's the way it is.
u just compared a marauder to a phoenix. that is retarded as hell. a phoenix utterly sucks vs anything thats not a mutalisk whereas the marauder can rape ALL armored units on top non armored units like zealots. blizzard cites the zealot as being the counter to marauders but this is a joke. marauders can kill an infinite amount of zealots with little micro. the marauder can do everything vs all toss ground making it cost effective and all purpose.
Any unit will kill any other unit in the game if that units strengths and weaknesses are not taken into account and it is not properly supported. Zealots supported by sentries will destroy marauders (force field behind them).
Zealots supported by stalkers + maybe one Immortal or one Collosus will wreck large groups of biological units. This advantage slowly disappears the more tanks he gets and the more effectively he uses them.
In regards to the OP. Early pushes use to scare the hell out of me, hell, from Zerg they still do. 7 roaches at 3:50 is a little difficult to do anything against. But general pushes, force field, force field, force field. I'm not particularly familiar with "pokes", but if they just try and get it and do some damage then leave, then it's not a problem. Otherwise if it's a hard push, I just keep popping out sentries until I can get a decent unit composition to counter whatever they have out there.
|
Without reading anything at all, I dislike the OP's use of the word rush.
|
Stalker 1:1 with a marauder leaves the Marauder left with 1 hit.
All a protoss player has to do when scouting the fast tech lab is to make 2 Stalkers to hold off a possible reaper harass or a 2 marauder concussive push.
Stalkers will get first hit on the marauders due to ledge advantage, or they can pull off some probes.
I really don't recommend Zealot Stalker as the first two units to counter early T pushes because it's quite easy for T to micro around your zealot and focus fire on the stalker.
|
On November 08 2010 11:26 Kurdaj wrote:
Now, workers can't catch up to each other - your early scouting Probe sees all of this. As soon as your Gateway finishes, you build a Cyb Core right away. That's all completely standard. Furthermore, this fast Tech Lab may indicate Reapers. So you won't build a Zealot first because you know as a veteran player that you need a Stalker first.
So surprise surprise, a Marauder pops out and kills your Probe, and you don't know if the Marauder is on his way or the Terran is just building up an army to take his natural. The Cyb Core is complete, and you won't have time to make a Zealot AND a Stalker before the Marauder(s) arrive, if the Terran is attacking at all.
You have no idea what's going on - all you think you know is the Terran might be inclined for early aggression. You have energy saved up at your Nexus to CB the Warp Gate tech - do you delay WG research to get a fast Zealot out - a unit that you know is useless against a Marauder?
No, this is very wrong. It doesn't matter what comes out of that tech-labed barracks, you are going to get a zealot while the cybercore completes. Even if its a reaper, you get that zealot first. Back when proxy reapers were all the rage vs. toss in beta, you got that zealot first.
Why Mal!? Thats just crazy talk!
It doesn't matter that the zealot will never hit a properly microed reaper. You get that zealot, because they can take quite a beating, and it buys you time for you cybercore to complete so you can build a stalker. Even back in the day, zealot chasing the reaper combined with some probe micro could minimize, or even outright prevent, probe casualties to fast reapers - and today's reapers come out way, way later.
Zealot stalker is also quite good vs. marauder. If the marauder is not using its concussive shell on the zealot, then the zealot can get hits on, even with good stutter step micro. The zealot does more dps to the marauder than the stalker, so if the marauder really wants to focus on the stalker, its going to actually be worse. Even then, probes are quite decent vs. marauders in the early game, and 3-4 probes can quickly clean up any leftover marauders along with your next warpgate unit.
This push is much better with a marine first, to kill the scouting probe, but whatever - unless you are doing some sort of 2gate -> double chrono stalker push, you tend to get that zealot, precisely because its a necessary tank for your stalker vs. any early agro. You could blindly prepare for this with 1 gate zealot ->stalker -> stalker + probe pull, even if you were planning on 1 gate FE and didn't want to scout. Its a very solid poke, and it can kill inexperienced protoss, but its hardly some sort of expected game-winner.
|
This works so well against any P, to narrow it down:
Concussive Shell > Zealots
1 Marauder > 1 Stalker
.. and Sentries just die
I haven't failed with this yet, even with five Marauders against all probes and six gateway units
|
|
|
This guy had a robo going before he had a single attacking unit. That is pretty risky.
This won't work against me, but this is because I actually open with sentry first.
It's true that it catches a lot of protoss though, the same people who complain about gateway units not being able to hold out against mm. It all comes down to sentry usage basically. Shields, forcefields, hallucinations and all.
A lot of people actually try doing this against me and then it's just forcefield -> free kills.
On November 08 2010 12:02 Eminent Rising wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 11:26 Kurdaj wrote:
I just said that the Marauder is imbalanced. I want to amend that - Marauders are not imbalanced against Gateway units, because Marauders are not supposed to be the same as Gateway units. In the same way that a single Phoenix is "imbalanced" against a single Mutalisk, Marauders are supposed to be better than Gateway units. They were made that way, and that's the way it is.
u just compared a marauder to a phoenix. that is retarded as hell. a phoenix utterly sucks vs anything thats not a mutalisk whereas the marauder can rape ALL armored units on top non armored units like zealots. blizzard cites the zealot as being the counter to marauders but this is a joke. marauders can kill an infinite amount of zealots with little micro. the marauder can do everything vs all toss ground making it cost effective and all purpose. A pretty good example here. You know that a marauder can't kite you with a forcefield up his back. Or that hallucinations spawn no less than two fake zealots?
He can only slow one zealot at a time. MM until like 30-40 supply can be taken out by gateway units of same supply. You just have to use your sentries well. Hallucination is a thing people often forget. Just fake 8 extra zealots and you're fine.
|
lol this push, well protoss i face now easily stops this
this will not work in higher diamond
|
I just beat a 1800 diamond players (twice) using this strat. I'm a 1000 platinium players.
Before using this BO I was probably winning like 30% of the time vs Protoss
|
Alright, let's all just calm down.
OP: Early pokes with marines and marauders are often effective, because those units are great in small numbers. This is known. However, when you post a strategy, most people like to have an answer to the question: "How would this fare against somebody who played reasonably well?", so it's good to include replays of people doing normal builds. Such as making a zealot, and then a stalker.
Everybody else: Early pokes with easily-micro'd units are a pretty decent plan. This poke should never win a game, but it can provide some early pressure and screw with people. It's not the worst thing ever.
-Cross
|
a lot of terran players are just implying this strat wrong i think. just because it works 3-4 times doesn't mean it's a standard work for all against all "protoss". top level terran players are the most reactive to scouting and reacting to scouting is a very important feat as a terran player. sure this strategy works and it should be incorporated into ur gameplay, but it isn't really and shouldn't be a standard opening to vs all protoss players. game is still young and constantly evolving as i see new strats being posted everyday and people thinking that these new strats will replace old strats -- completely not true. strategies should be accumulated that's why the game lasts long because people are thinking of new ways to do new things; but it doesn't mean that you should stop using the old stuff. i used this strat back in beta phase i and it worked a lot when marauders came with concussive as a passive skill. i still use it now and then and kill of top level players but it doesnt' mean it works everytime.
i forgot who wrote this but, "you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time -- but u can't fool all of the people all of the time".
|
Marauders are bad anyway. Marines deal the DPS in the terran bioball.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-163944.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-163962.jpg)
