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After watching the GSL over the last days/week I've always seen the same trend: Pro gamers seem to hate stationary AA (turrets, spores etc.). Even when they know what's coming (see the latest GSL RO4 games).
I of course know the obvious reason for this: Stationary defense won't help you in the offense, it's wasted ressources if the enemy stops attacking with air, most of the time basic ground units will be able to fend of the attack without having to invest in the tech for AA, etc., etc.
But I've seen several games now where the cost of the lost SCVs (drones, probes) outweighs the costs of an Engineering Bay + a couple of turrets (or the equivalent for Z/P) by a huge amount. I don't get why I only see a turret every 10 games or so when (from my point of view) even a single turret could stabilize their play so much against the occasional banshee/muta/phoenix harass.
And if they do invest in turrets or spores, they either build one or two at seemingly random locations, where the enemy may still snipe workers from gas or depots, or they totally overcomit and build 3-4 spores at every base.
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I think for the most part you answered your own question. Stationary defenses put you on the defensive, meaning you can't put any pressure on or expand further without a larger commitment.
Of course having those extra one or two turrets is going to help when you scout the mutalisks incoming, but for banshees the spores / turrets are mostly used for detection. The long range on the banshees and void rays make it impractical to build enough stationary defenses to kill banshees or voids.
Honestly, losing that many workers, especially against mutas, can be prevented with a couple of missile turrets if you are lacking in AA.
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Cannon, Spores, and Turrets are built for their detection ability, as well as helping fend off drops. They are not meant to fend off large attacks (this is the view from the pro's perspective...many interviews will attest to this.)
Small groups of units will be stronger than static defense, and can later be used to attack...this being the second reason to avoid static defense.
Turrets and Spores can only attack air, while marines and hydras/queens can attack both air and ground (as well as spit larva and produce creep) - so economically, units are better.
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Stationary defense like that is a waste of money, so you generally want to get as little as possible. Units that can attack air are more valuable and can move around and be used offensively as well.
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I've always been somewhat skeptical about that since Terrans almost always had to turret spam against Mutas :L
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the question is, why do non-pro players build SO MUCH anti air
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only time its ok to build defense is if the zerg player is going muta's. You should have a couple turrets or cannons early on to reduce pressure. In the end this should help you move out and steam roll your opponent.
and for zerg players spining up when you have no men. very useful against toss.
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Defensive structures are terrible in this game.
In BW where the longest range non-T3 AtG attack was 4 range, turrets were a worthwhile investment.
Now, banshees and void rays not only destroy defensive structures once you have 3 or 4 of them, they also have 6 range, so they can destroy your whole base around it.
Its ALWAYS better to just make units that can shoot up in the current game.
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Because Flash hasn't switched to SC2 yet.
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bronze talking:
I also saw GSL (especially) Loner gathering his army in front of his base with an Toss observer hovering over the area - and there was no turret up. Toss (nexgenius) had full knowledge what is going on - when & where. I was really shocked.
but probably if you are a good toss or bansheeist - you advance very slowly or have good micro control, so you do not run into a turrent but move around.
however I like having one "save-spot in my base" where I can pull/lure attackers into because there are 2 turrets. I can "park" my workforce there during attack - the mutas start auto targeting the turrets and after 10 sec. my main army should arrive to repel the attack.
1 think 100 mins (or 1 cannon) + 4-5 marins (or 3 stalker) are a good investment to hold off a standard 1-2 banshee attack near the minerals.
"why do bad people build so many" - I can tell you I am one of them - they generate the illusion of security because the game has so much complexity and uncertainty for low level players.  +plus if you have a wall of turrets - what this buys you is time until your army arrives - which is especially a need for low skillers and their army that is out of position by nature.
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On November 04 2010 22:43 FrankWalls wrote:
the question is, why do non-pro players build SO MUCH anti air
Touche. A point well raised to counter the OP.
That's obviously because they think they need that much to feel safe... but you can't win with only defense
OP, pros generally have incredibly good understanding of timing, so they know when air can come and they usually have a mobile, offensive force to help counter air harrass... so this means they can skimp on the static defense. If you already have marines and know where you can position them to take care of banshees, why bother making more AA? Banshees will just avoid the turrets, whereas marines can chase them down. Your turrets can't counter-attack.
Besides, you often need a decent-sized army of your own to counter a decent-sized air force anyway, so wasting money on things that don't move will only put you farther behind. How do you counter 11 mutalisks in Brood War? Static defense? I think not. Same goes with SC2.
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I think it depends on the person your playing against most times. If they are harassing your base more then going after your army or expansions its worth a few more, but if your on top of your scv movement you should be moving them toward your main army and your army toward the scvs at the same time, I keep my workers hot keyed so i can do this quickly, i also try to design my base and depots to restrict enemy movement by raising the depots, then lowering them to increase my own troop movement putting the buildings i can afford to loose on the outskirts, while the buildings that will hurt me to loose close to the middle.
just my opinion, not tell you what to do with your own.
oh plus the range upgrade to turrets makes the "random" placement make more sense, its more about covering an area with detection than making more to cover the area, i'd think
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Besides the fact that pros are normally and rightfully confident in their ability to defend with their units because they practice against those scenarios so much, putting down an ebay and turrets not only costs a lot of minerals that could be used for workers and units, it also costs time, which is arguably more important. The AA will undoubtedly delay the build, and pros hone their builds down to the second. Pushing a few seconds early can be the difference between a win or a loss.
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I've been like wtf don't they build a couple stupid turrets during this whole GSL too. After thinking about it I came to the conclusion : they are stubborn idiots.
I mean really, a million kittens died cause of those fags who just don't want to build an ebay + 2 turrets (or even a single one for vision ffs) to permanently protect their workers instead of spamming scans all game long to kill banshees, every single time a banshee has been ingame with cloak it did WAY more damage than the cost of an ebay + 2 turrets , same for the cost of the scans they keep using to fend them off. This is even more the right thing to do considering the huge investment that are cloaked banshee, if he has cloaked banshees he doesnt have much more else so the money that could've been into a tinsy bit bigger army is not needed at all.
People saying that it's wasted resources that should go into army are just as wrong as them really, there is no reason not to invest 325 minerals to prevent multiple 15 kills banshees.
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Most Terrans, even pros, seem to do some sort of Marine/Marauder-centric build, so they'll need or already have the Engineering Bay anyway.
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Yeah I didn't mean to seem "pro" by any means, just sharing how i handle things most times.
i wanted to point out, tvp / tvt i build a few around the outside to avoid the observer scout / drops
and tvz one at my entrance and two in the back to prevent drops / infestors
that is if your scouting and see it coming
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On November 04 2010 23:17 cArn- wrote:
People saying that it's wasted resources that should go into army are just as wrong as them really, there is no reason not to invest 325 minerals to prevent multiple 15 kills banshees.
just think about it:
- 325 minerals = 6 marines
- 150min 100 gas = 1 banshee
if we convert the banshee cost into marines, it'll be around 5~6 marines. so if you can kill that banshee, it means you now have 6 more marines than your opponent. if those resources went on the turrets, you would break even on the army count.and please, don't call pro gamers idiots.
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I too find it ridiculous.
Foxer lost *so* many SCVs to the banshee harass which would've been easily stopped with one turret.
At the very least one turret saves having to use a scan, which in balance discussion every single terran claims isn't free but actually costs over 300 minerals. Foxer used scan to reveal cloaked banshees in his main at least 3 times, you're telling me one turret isnt worth it?
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I think they are most worried about how the turret doesn't move, and can be destroyed very quickly with the right micro, and that it only attacks air, marines attack both
2 marines that attack both and can move, or one turret that stands still and only attacks air?
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Pros tend to change off game resources (Positioning, APM, Looking at the minimap, ect) for in game resources. With good control you only need "Shoot at this" stationary defenses to buy time for ther army to come.
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EPT
