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Pr0xxis
United States60 Posts
I generally 10 pool to avoid cheesy zerg players who like mass ling. then I grab some roachs and go straight for mutas hoping to beat my opponent to it. I skip the expo and ling speed for a fast lair and spire. I think my build in itself is the problem. Which is why I'm asking you fellow TL'ers to help me out. EDIT: Here are 2 replays. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/99348-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/99349-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns | ||
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alwaid
United States96 Posts
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Small Frog
United States4 Posts
May I ask what what level of play you are in? Platinum and lower the answer may simply be that your opponent is doing the basics all slightly better than you are. | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
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Pr0xxis
United States60 Posts
On November 03 2010 09:28 daowns wrote: i'm no diamond player but it seems like the idea behind your build is for a mixed unit comp all in? it seems open to pushes at all times. ZvZ mirror is basically centered around who scouts better. I try not to sac econ for an all in usually. Okay, see the thing is I really have no idea how to play this match-up. On November 03 2010 09:29 Small Frog wrote: If you want serious replies, I would highly suggest replayS. (emphasis on the multiple there) May I ask what what level of play you are in? Platinum and lower the answer may simply be that your opponent is doing the basics all slightly better than you are. I would like to put up replays, but Im not sure how... >,< Im high silver, so thats entirely possible. But im mostly looking for what are people are doing in this match-up. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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Xaggah
Canada45 Posts
Try going 13 pool 13 extractor, this will put you somewhere in the middle of economy and early defense vs cheese. If your opponent does cheese and u hold it off with a couple zerglings and ur queen you'll be in a better position then ur opponent. Remember a spine crawler only costs u one larva to produce, and will do the job of about 6 zerglings, leaving u more larva to power drones. If you go Muta, be very active with them. Snipe overlords and try to pick off some drones. This will keep his unit count down because of supply block and the need to replenish his drone count. If you go for some kind of mass roach push get an evo chamber and upgrade +1 carapace. This way you can throw down some spore crawlers to fend off muta harass, and ur roaches will rip through any ground forces he may have (if he went muta his ground force wont be as big anyways). I hope this helps! gg  | ||
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Pr0xxis
United States60 Posts
On November 03 2010 09:33 emc wrote: mass roach and infestor is a very safe build, infestors completely shut down mutas and mass roaches destroy all ground. Infestors can stop alot of things including banelings (one fungal kills them out right). If they end up going roach hydra, then cut down on the infestors and get more banelings, fungal the hydras, bane them and clean up with the roaches. Also upgrades are even more useful as a 1/0 roach is hugely stronger than a 0/0 roach. Strategies aren't the problem in ZvZ, it's knowing when to expand, when to drone and when to build up. I still don't have a complete grasp on this, but the best way is good overlord placement, you can get away with aggressive overlords for a long period of time which will really help you figure out what you need to do. Setting OV's out side of their natural, outside of your natural and somewhere in the middle of the map is a good place to start. Sweetness. Thanks a lot! I think my irrational fear of cheese/mutas is really messing with me. So I will definitely get a build up revolving around those units. I find hydra's in general are useless, although I did play a zvz today where my opp used them. So roach/infestor it is. Prolly have to just scout more to learn those timings. | ||
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Small Frog
United States4 Posts
On November 03 2010 09:31 Killswitch wrote: I would like to put up replays, but Im not sure how... >,< Im high silver, so thats entirely possible. But im mostly looking for what are people are doing in this match-up. Find replays in folder Host replays on the internet Link us to the replays Frankly, in Silver, you really don't need to worry too much about unit composition, or advanced strategy. I know it sounds silly but honestly, I'd be willing to bet that with better Macro you could do exactly what you did and win. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
Also I would recommend getting hydras if you haven't scouted their tech or army comp, if only 6-8 of them. The added DPS will destroy a pure roach army and they are very safe against mutas. Sometimes infestors cost too much gas and a couple hydras will be enough to stop early muta and get some infestors out. I don't find hydras useless, mass hydra is useless as they get owned by banes (which will often happen against a muta/ling comp) but a couple hydras surrounded by roaches is very very strong. For later stages of the game and you have a ton of gas, infestor/hydra works well as infestors can kill banes outright, you can fungal mutas and out range them with hydras, they just sit there. Against roaches you can fungal a group of them then micro back and attack them, like the mutas they also sit there. I've also been finding 14 hatch 14 pool to be very strong. Delay your gas to around 17 or 18 supply and you will still be safe because with this build as you should be able to get 2 queens at the same time from each hatch and a couple lings. The delayed gas also helps you get a roach warren down as you don't need early gas for roaches. 18 supply roach warren with an extractor around the same time, put 3 drones on gas when it finishes and you should be good to go. | ||
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Pr0xxis
United States60 Posts
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ezdez
Australia28 Posts
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NyuNyu
Canada146 Posts
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Pr0xxis
United States60 Posts
On November 03 2010 09:49 ezdez wrote: As everyone has said - replays or you're going to get some pretty generic replies like you need to out macro and out upgrade. I'm a little confused though as the problem you're having with the two "strategies" - when you go fast mutas, you lose to mass roaches? Are you building enough lings? Ling strength against roaches is speed and catching the roaches in the open. Try to not skip ling speed, and get lair 100gas later. I wish I had the replays that go along with that statement. But, thats probably the problem. I've realized too, I my BO isn't solid. I try getting a little of everything which is terrible... | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
from your post I can tell you definitely play too conservatively... this is a mirror match, and if you 10 pool and your opponent 13 pools you have just crippled yourself. if you 13 pool into roach and your opponent fast expands into roach, he should be able to defend and you are way behind again. if you aren't comfortable in long macro games, try variations of ling/baneling, mass speedling, and ling/muta play. if you prefer the longer macro games and have more passive style, play around with roach/infestor/hydra builds. here are some general unit comps (take with grain of salt, my humble opinion) - early game roach > ling/baneling rush speedling> roach pure roach > roach/hydra mid/late roach/speedling > pure roach roach/hydra/infestor > muta ling muta ling > roach roach/hydra = muta ling (small maps i think roach/hydra has edge, large maps i think muta ling has edge) roach/infestor > pure roach roach/infestor > roach/hydra/infestor speedling muta baneling > roach/hydra | ||
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demosthenes.460
United States25 Posts
Here's how my games typically play out. 12scout 14gas 14pool Metabolic boost From here I'll typically drone to 20 and get four lings out for scouting. Based on what I scout, I'll take a certain path. He's going roaches: mass speedlings (take two drones off gas, take expo as soon as I'm out of larva and have 300) He's teching to lair: mass speedlings (same) He's fast expanding: speedlings (same) He threw down a baneling nest: roaches! He just has zerglings: get banelings and roaches, this is honestly the only build order i have trouble with. obviously i'll transition out of this into mutalisks or hydras, but honestly, most games are won or lost at tier 1, it's the most important basically, try to stay at just speedlings as long as possible, because pretty much any tech path he chooses has a hard counter to it I | ||
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Gimpb
293 Posts
The second game you did much better--you got a large enough group of roaches that lings wouldn't be super effective against them and then followed with lots of drones and tech which is pretty logical. You expanded at a decent time and had good decision making regarding when to attack and retreat. Most importantly, you made enough drones to be able to actually do stuff. | ||
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throttled
United States382 Posts
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ezdez
Australia28 Posts
On November 03 2010 09:51 Killswitch wrote: I wish I had the replays that go along with that statement. But, thats probably the problem. I've realized too, I my BO isn't solid. I try getting a little of everything which is terrible... That's not 100% true - if you have a look at FruitDealer's builds, he often gets a bit of everything. The reason is that even ZvZ, you end up being reactive. Just make sure you're going to be using the buildings to full effect before you build them - popping out 3 mutas out of a spire and then falling back to roaches might not be the greatest investment. But if it forces hydras whilst you get banelings or you force spore crawlers whilst you mass roaches, and that wins you the game, are those mutas wasted? But as everyone has already said, it comes down to scouting. Your BO should get you to your first 20 or so supply, but by the sounds of it you need to have more than one BO - you need one to react to different builds. Instead of naturally going for 10 pool to defend against cheese, scout for cheese before you reach 10 supply. Learn a FE build, learn a fast lair build, learn a muta-ling build, learn a roach build. | ||
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itsme
Canada46 Posts
10drone scout 10ovie usually around this time im able to see whether if hes goin early pool or any other build. 14gas 13pool try to make a manner evo chamber right when the opponent makes a gas so that either he has to deal with having to go maneuver around with his drones for his gas= slower tech and usually when he tries to kill it with queens or lings i can either kill his drones with the leftover broodlings or weaken his starting army so that i can have an advantage early in the game/win first 250/100 for queen and speed ups, send lings in front of main make baneling nest for the next 50 gas. keep making lings if he goes for roaches, lure their army out and then just run around to kill his drones, leave 2 on the corner of his main and morph them to banelings. keep him busy till the banelings just kill his min line, either kill his roach army by a good surround or leave and make some sunkens to tech or expand. u have the lead anyway. if hes going for mirror build, send 1 ling at a time when u see him making banelings to waste them. when going for a push, never group them all in 1 hotkey. 1 for everything and 2 for just banelings when ur going for a push, just amove the 1 and for banelings quickly move them instead of amove into his min line so that they wont explode when they try to micro 1 at a time. Also, when fighting a large ling army they will explode at a right time and just keep going like an unstoppable wall. | ||
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FroSTNova
5 Posts
I don't like ZvZ and I am guilty of 6 pooling when I'm angry but aside from that. You have multiple options but in order to perfect ZvZ you need to get used to timing pushes. As I started playing higher ranked Zerg I found that I've seen less fast-muta play and more expansion-roach / speedling.baneling play. This is because someone who turbos to mutas will get punished easily unless everything goes right. It's really easy to fend off someone who goes 1 base muta with a few queens .. you don't even need spores. If you see a slow(er) transition into mutas then you might want some spores but by then you should easily have hydras/infestors out. Basically I'm saying the only way mass muta works is if you sit in your base and do nothing. Infestors, EVEN 1 INFESTOR, can REALLY shut down muta play. Just to give you perspective; it's quite possible to kill 6-10 mutas with 1 Infestor and a miniscule amount of hydras with no risk of hydras dying. I wish I could give you a build order but I'm honestly still trying to figure out something that "works." but good timed roach pushes (+1 attack helps vs speedlings) can shut down an expanding zerg/quick 1 base play. Most important thing to do is be aware of what your opponent is doing. ZvZ is all about proper countering + timing. .. okay that's with all matches but I think for ZvZ moreso. | ||
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
On November 03 2010 10:05 tskarzyn wrote: speedling> roach Thats only true if he manages a surround. If you know hes going speedlings hug something so he can only attack from one side. In that case roaches will win, but youve gotta be really careful. roach speed helps alot, and should be considered mandatory if youre going for some roach push/all-in. | ||
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fireproofazn
United States231 Posts
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TekKpriest
308 Posts
On November 03 2010 13:33 nihoh wrote: How is 14 hatch/pool safe against Roach builds? Or baneling builds for htat matter? 16 Hatch 15 Pool is more standard nowadays, its pretty safe on most maps, and if you scout an early pool you can throw down your own pool on 13/14 and be safe. After that its either droning time, Baneling Wars etc. Scout and be fine. You can easily defend everything your opponent throws at you. edit to the one above me. Stealing both gas is waste of your money, if you dont early pool him he can get his expo relative safe and gas there. Sure the gas will come 30 seconds late + mining time, but most of the time it isnt a problem. | ||
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MonkeyKungFu
Norway154 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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Boysarn
Sweden77 Posts
I had lots of problem with ZvZ and has since then studdied it and this IS the way to do it, it's basically a copy of dimaga's playstyle (Look at blizzcon replays where he dominated all other zergs). ZvZ is ALL about scouting, more then in any other setup becuase it's all about timing your hatch/pool with his. You want to scout on 9 on most maps, this allows you to see if he has gone for hatch/pool yet once your drone arrives. If he has gone for early pool, put yours down right away. Once his zergs/roaches reach you you'll have enough units of your own to defend due to travel distance and you now have a economical lead which will grant you the win unless you fuck up. If you arrive and you DONT see a spawning pool what you want to do is block his hatch with your drone and hatch on 16 followed by spawning pool. Reason you hatch on 16 is becuase you get 300minirals by then by just spamming drones and overlords and spawning pool to get 2queens out to dominate his larva production and economy. By now you can start to spam speedlings at your enemy, superior larva count and a good economy will rake hell. DONT fast expand on maps that don't have a chocke on your expansion since you won't be able to defend this against early preassure. On maps with chockes you can easily throw down a few spinecrawlers, block ramp with queens and a few zerglings and spam drones into victory. Once the first stages of the match is complete (early preassure) you want to get range/armor upgrades and switch into roaches into roach/hydra. Infestors can be worth it but usually just going mass roach/hydra with upgrades will neat you the win. Once again check out all dimaga blizzcon replays and really study what he does. Don't do like me first time and say "oh he goes 16hatch 15 pool", insted ask yourself WHY does he go 16hatch 15pool. He adjusts after their playstyle, sometimes he goes 15hatch or 14hatch depending on the enemys opening. | ||
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chip789
Canada199 Posts
Build order: 9 overlord 13 pool 15 extractor 15 overlord 16 queen 20 Roach warren when the queen is exactly half built 20 overlord x2 wait for spawn larva to pop boom instantly 7 or 8 roaches...then wait for next larva to pop boom 5 or 6 more roaches...attack...drone...roaches..expand... and then tech and your good | ||
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