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Effect010
Germany89 Posts
On October 18 2010 20:11 ddrddrddrddr wrote: First of all, don't say gg before your opponent when you win the game. so true...its incredibly unfriendly and makes me angry every time... | ||
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Rowen
United States76 Posts
On October 19 2010 04:41 Effect010 wrote: so true...its incredibly unfriendly and makes me angry every time... I'm sorry! I didn't know! I stopped, if it's any consolation! Shows what I get for trying to congratulate a player on a good game -- too many players just surrender out of a game instantly. How do people manage their macro during micro-intensive sessions? For example (no replay as I'm not on my home computer), I played ZvP on Desert Oasis and end up storming their expo with roaches and lings against their stalker-heavy force. I need to micro to win, so after 30 seconds or so of heavy micro (with JUST enough time to throw in an inject as I queued up moves for my roaches to run circles around the expo's Nexus while the speedlings picked off the 3 remaining zealots), I look up to see over 1,000 minerals just laying around. I quickly queue up more lings and pop out a hatchery, but I'm still at over 500/500 of money just SITTING there. Is it in my best interest to micro less and let units die in order to make sure their replacements are getting out in a timely fashion? How should I gauge when the units that are alive are more important than the units I need to build? A similar thing happened to me in a ZvZ on Blistering Sands where I end up pushing through their destructible rocks to avoid the (metric shit-) ton of spines at their ramp, and have to corner up my roaches to keep from being surrounded by their slowlings. By the time I'm done micro'ing around and have won the fight, my mineral count is 800+. Is this just a matter of increasing APM and wisdom to know what's likely to happen next, so I can ignore some micro? | ||
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ScholarZero
14 Posts
It's not all that hard during a fight to hit "6srrrzzz" or whatever you need to build and you don't even have to be looking at your base. Edit: I keep editing as I think of things. If you think that Macro is your problem, just focus on one solid build. 5RR is ok, I am currently at gold on the back of speedling expand, so whatever works for you. Do you have your own (Link #1) Day9 Mental Checklist? It seems weird to compartmentalize your actions, but it frees up so much mental energy to actually playing better. Try to get in the rhythm of "Check my minimap, is there action? Ok, I made some units, time to spread creep. Ok I spread creep, time to check if I need to spawn larva. Ok I spawned larva, time to check my food to see if I need to make overlords..." and so on. If you don't try to do everything individually, you will basically be going "OOOOOOOOOOOOOH SHIIIIIIIIIIIT" and try to do everything at once, which leads to doing them all poorly. | ||
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Biochemist
United States1008 Posts
On October 19 2010 05:41 Rowen wrote: I'm sorry! I didn't know! I stopped, if it's any consolation! Shows what I get for trying to congratulate a player on a good game -- too many players just surrender out of a game instantly. How do people manage their macro during micro-intensive sessions? For example (no replay as I'm not on my home computer), I played ZvP on Desert Oasis and end up storming their expo with roaches and lings against their stalker-heavy force. I need to micro to win, so after 30 seconds or so of heavy micro (with JUST enough time to throw in an inject as I queued up moves for my roaches to run circles around the expo's Nexus while the speedlings picked off the 3 remaining zealots), I look up to see over 1,000 minerals just laying around. I quickly queue up more lings and pop out a hatchery, but I'm still at over 500/500 of money just SITTING there. Is it in my best interest to micro less and let units die in order to make sure their replacements are getting out in a timely fashion? How should I gauge when the units that are alive are more important than the units I need to build? A similar thing happened to me in a ZvZ on Blistering Sands where I end up pushing through their destructible rocks to avoid the (metric shit-) ton of spines at their ramp, and have to corner up my roaches to keep from being surrounded by their slowlings. By the time I'm done micro'ing around and have won the fight, my mineral count is 800+. Is this just a matter of increasing APM and wisdom to know what's likely to happen next, so I can ignore some micro? At higher levels of play you'll be required to take breaks during fights to build buildings, transfer miners, buy upgrades, inject larvae, defend against harassment, etc. but until at least platinum if not higher you should be fine doing 6srrrrrrrrr or whatever you're making (which only takes a second or two during the fight) and catching up with the other stuff afterwards. This is especially true if you're doing bronze friendly builds that don't rely on constant aggression and harassment, since 90% of the time you've probably got nothing to do other than macro. This way money should really only build up if you manage to supply block yourself right before a fight. 1000 minerals at the end of a fight isn't a big deal (especially if you're fighting at his base), but I've watched a few bronze replays where players let their minerals get upwards of 2-3k while sitting on 2 bases with 8 drones at each. But like I said earlier, one really good way to train your ability to do both micro and macro at the same time is to FORCE yourself to play one of those really aggressive builds for awhile. You'll certainly lose more at first as it takes awhile to get used to, but you'll probably be happy with what you learn from it. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
*wrote out a full review and then realised it was all already covered while i was reading  *if your going to call gg (or similar) for your opponent when you win, dont use an abbreviation; it makes it obvious that your sincere i.e you got horribly smashed: your opponent calls "gg" and/or "wp" compare that to him/her typing "good game" / "well played" assuming your not going for bm anyway On October 19 2010 01:06 TERATON wrote: I just dont get it why he got warned for this... Its true tbh. Just like day9 said... build pylons and probes/ scv's and sup depots/ drones and overlords + keep your money low. Warn day9? the OP asked for help and got trash talked randomly he didnt have to post that it was pointless, the bronze is even in the title even if the advice is solid, delivery still matters On October 19 2010 05:41 Rowen wrote: How do people manage their macro during micro-intensive sessions? For example (no replay as I'm not on my home computer), I played ZvP on Desert Oasis and end up storming their expo with roaches and lings against their stalker-heavy force. I need to micro to win, so after 30 seconds or so of heavy micro (with JUST enough time to throw in an inject as I queued up moves for my roaches to run circles around the expo's Nexus while the speedlings picked off the 3 remaining zealots), I look up to see over 1,000 minerals just laying around. I quickly queue up more lings and pop out a hatchery, but I'm still at over 500/500 of money just SITTING there. Is it in my best interest to micro less and let units die in order to make sure their replacements are getting out in a timely fashion? How should I gauge when the units that are alive are more important than the units I need to build? A similar thing happened to me in a ZvZ on Blistering Sands where I end up pushing through their destructible rocks to avoid the (metric shit-) ton of spines at their ramp, and have to corner up my roaches to keep from being surrounded by their slowlings. By the time I'm done micro'ing around and have won the fight, my mineral count is 800+. Is this just a matter of increasing APM and wisdom to know what's likely to happen next, so I can ignore some micro? its a bit of a practice thing, generally if you can a-move and still win the battle, or at least come out close, you want to be making more units generally in starcraft, micro < macro, up until a decent level of diamond, a move + macro will win you most games anyway in words similar to those day9 has previously said: ignore the battles untill you macro so well that you have time to look away from your macro and start microing i hotkey queens on one tab, shift +v and click the hatcheries, then hatches on a second key to make the units, check the minimap, spread creep, check the minimap, do stuff until just before the new larvae spawn <move units, defend, attack, tech, expo, supply>, check the minimap, rinse and repeat havnt really got the <> bit sorted in an order, and it kinda varies in the game anyway learning a solid BO would get you to at least silver/gold | ||
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ScholarZero
14 Posts
Drone Timing/Production, courtesy of Day9 Game 1, ZvZ Jungle Basin - Feel free to keep the speedlings out of your base checking stuff out. If shit starts going down, just bring them back to your base. I think one of the biggest hurdles of bronze/silver level play is just being too passive. You don't want to lose your base, but neither does the other guy. You're so busy turtling up that you miss the opportunity to just completely kill him. Especially with an army of speedlings and three spines at your base, your army can be outside of your base, it's safe enough. I mean, you might not be familiar with that map, but you had vision on the entire map just because you had the OL at the bottom of the ramp and one at his natural. You had two drones mining that bottom gas geyser most of the game, watch out for that. Try to keep the units out in the field. Keep your eye on the minimap and let THAT tell you when you need to get back to your base. Game 2, ZvP Shakuras Plateau - Your opponent will never spawn in the near position on this map (unless this has changed, let me know). Try to move your drone to build the spawning pool before you can afford it - like, get a drone on the way to build it at around 185 minerals, then BLAMMO Spawning Pool. There is rarely a reason to gas steal, especially in Bronze. After that, you just won because you had more units. It's funny how much different your two builds are, just because of that little bit of early pressure you took in Game 1. You want to hold the pressure then get right back to your build. Look at it this way, if you hold off the rush and get back to your build, you HAVE to be in a stronger position because in order for him to rush he had to cut harvesters, but you're right back where you belong. | ||
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Rowen
United States76 Posts
On October 19 2010 08:50 Cyber_Cheese wrote: in the OP you wrote ZvP as PvP Fixed, thanks! On October 19 2010 09:59 ScholarZero wrote: Drone Timing/Production, courtesy of Day9 Game 1, ZvZ Jungle Basin - Feel free to keep the speedlings out of your base checking stuff out. If shit starts going down, just bring them back to your base. I think one of the biggest hurdles of bronze/silver level play is just being too passive. You don't want to lose your base, but neither does the other guy. You're so busy turtling up that you miss the opportunity to just completely kill him. Especially with an army of speedlings and three spines at your base, your army can be outside of your base, it's safe enough. I mean, you might not be familiar with that map, but you had vision on the entire map just because you had the OL at the bottom of the ramp and one at his natural. Try to keep the units out in the field. Keep your eye on the minimap and let THAT tell you when you need to get back to your base. Game 2, ZvP Shakuras Plateau - Your opponent will never spawn in the near position on this map (unless this has changed, let me know). Try to move your drone to build the spawning pool before you can afford it - like, get a drone on the way to build it at around 185 minerals, then BLAMMO Spawning Pool. There is rarely a reason to gas steal, especially in Bronze. After that, you just won because you had more units. It's funny how much different your two builds are, just because of that little bit of early pressure you took in Game 1. You want to hold the pressure then get right back to your build. Look at it this way, if you hold off the rush and get back to your build, you HAVE to be in a stronger position because in order for him to rush he had to cut harvesters, but you're right back where you belong. Keeping lings out and doing things (short of taking the Watchtowers) requires more micro, which is more APM-intensive than I feel I'm able to do at the moment. Keeping them in my base when I know I can see every move they make seems to make more sense to me since I can focus on macro instead of "where are my lings NOW?" I'll give it a shot though -- more micro+macro = more practice doing both at the same time, in a situation where if I misclick or fail to notice something it's likely not to get my early pressure wiped out. I'm more gas stealing to be a pain in the ass than any REAL threat. It gets in the opponent's head and I like the mental aspect of it. I've noticed a lot less early pressure since I started gas stealing, leading to the thought that (at least in Bronze), if I'm able to pull off a gas steal and cancel/rebuild two or three times, it makes the other player feel like I'm on a higher level and less likely to push out, leaving me to do the aggression and expansion. A new replay is posted. I had the feeling about halfway through (once I denied their expo at their natural) that the game was over and I could have just rushed and won, but wanted to play it safe and mass a bit more. It might have blown up in my face with that Thor push at the end, but I figured with one base mined out and another one close, they wouldn't be able to counter what I was doing with my three, then four bases. I ended up pushing to Ultra by the end in the thought of busting through their front wall, but no need. New thought -- Nydus drops. Good/bad/ugly? How many Nydus Networks do you make to ensure its success? They take so long to morph in, I'm always afraid of losing the building before it can finish. Perhaps two or three worms at once will help? Banelings + Nydus @ mineral line = lolwin? Or does anyone ovvie drop blings? Seems to me three or four blings could WRECK harvesters. | ||
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Biochemist
United States1008 Posts
On October 19 2010 10:01 Rowen wrote: Fixed, thanks! Keeping lings out and doing things (short of taking the Watchtowers) requires more micro, which is more APM-intensive than I feel I'm able to do at the moment. Keeping them in my base when I know I can see every move they make seems to make more sense to me since I can focus on macro instead of "where are my lings NOW?" I'll give it a shot though -- more micro+macro = more practice doing both at the same time, in a situation where if I misclick or fail to notice something it's likely not to get my early pressure wiped out. I'm more gas stealing to be a pain in the ass than any REAL threat. It gets in the opponent's head and I like the mental aspect of it. I've noticed a lot less early pressure since I started gas stealing, leading to the thought that (at least in Bronze), if I'm able to pull off a gas steal and cancel/rebuild two or three times, it makes the other player feel like I'm on a higher level and less likely to push out, leaving me to do the aggression and expansion. A new replay is posted. I had the feeling about halfway through (once I denied their expo at their natural) that the game was over and I could have just rushed and won, but wanted to play it safe and mass a bit more. It might have blown up in my face with that Thor push at the end, but I figured with one base mined out and another one close, they wouldn't be able to counter what I was doing with my three, then four bases. I ended up pushing to Ultra by the end in the thought of busting through their front wall, but no need. New thought -- Nydus drops. Good/bad/ugly? How many Nydus Networks do you make to ensure its success? They take so long to morph in, I'm always afraid of losing the building before it can finish. Perhaps two or three worms at once will help? Banelings + Nydus @ mineral line = lolwin? Or does anyone ovvie drop blings? Seems to me three or four blings could WRECK harvesters. One is fine, especially if you hide it somewhere. Maybe run a ling into his army right before you start to distract him. I see platinum/low diamond players not see nydus worms all the time that are just sitting there in plain sight, so I don't think you have to go to great lengths to make sure he can't stop it. Just don't do strategies that rely on getting a successful nydus worm up. I played a TvZ once (platinum level) where the zerg literally sat in his base on 10 drones and made nothing but roaches and then hydra, while repeatedly dropping nydus worms in my base. I had fast expanded so I had to scramble to stop the first few, but before long my economy kicked in and I waltzed down to his completely undeveloped base and rolled over him. Don't be that guy  | ||
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ScholarZero
14 Posts
You can do overlord drops with banelings, it takes a while to get set up because you have to get banelings, overlord speed and ventral sacs (which takes a long time) and you have to not die in the meantime. It would definitely be in place of any Muta work, though - people tend to get more air defense once they see mutas flying around. | ||
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ScholarZero
14 Posts
They are sooooo good. You need to watch them. They are so fucking good. | ||
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zbedlam
Australia549 Posts
On October 19 2010 03:43 TheMilkMan wrote: Because good habits start off early, and hes coming to a place that will teach him good habits at the begining instead of having to relearn everything at the end. @Rowen, First, what is your plan when you go into the game? Do you have a plan? I am not saying that you have to stick to said plan, but the fact that you have one. What I do, and I am a Diamond Terran, if you ever want some 1v1s let me know, I have a plan when I go in. For example, I see Zerg, I think in my mind, I am 3 raxing, building an engineering bay, getting stim, +1 weapons and slamming his expansion asap. Zerg will ALWAYS win the macro game. I scout with my scv and do my best to slow HIS expansion down. I can win 90% of the time on a 1 base game. So, develop a plan, but ALWAYS have contingencies. On the second game, you dropped a pool on 13, and a gas on 12. Did you have a purpose? Speedlings? Were you going to lair? What is your reasoning behind doing that. What was your overall plan/ At 3:38 you drop the spine crawler, you did this because you feared early harass from lings from the other player. Why not just make lings and a queen? Mind you, Im not saying it was a bad choice, just what prompted that thought process. You are asking for strategy comments, Ill do my best At 4:23 you beat off his first rush. You have him beat in scv count, you know this because you know that zerg can not build 2 units at once, that early of a rush means he sacrificed scv count, so expand. You will have him beat. Make some lings to defend. Zerg are a macro race, you already know this, you need monies to macro. Get better placement on your crawlers. At 730 your macro drops. Focus on Macro, get better at it. You have WAY to much monies. Way to much. If you notice, high level and programer zerg players, spread creep like a boss. You need the WHOLE map to be creeped up. I think spending the 150 for an additional queen to do this is worth it. SPREAD CREEP. GET THIS IN YOUR HEAD NOW. S P R E A D C R E E P. You didnt start spreading until almost 9 minutes. You have map control, move your crawlers up to your front door so they can support your units. YOU STILL HAVE TO MUCH MONEY! Build another hatchery in your base do something with it. The fellows that commented above have a point, you need to learn how to spend your money. You have to few drones, honestly. I know I am saying you have to much money as well, but you need to have about 25-30 drones at each base. You saw that he was going lings and roaches, why didnt you go mutas? Then you could harass and attack. Again, not saying wrong decision, but asking what your thoughts were. At 14 minutes you beat his army and had a standing army, you should have expanded. YOU HAVE TO MUCH MONEY. Good micro at 1530 at 18 I recomend attacking with your standing army, and using your mutas to kill his mineral line. YOU HAVE TO MUCH MONEY. Yea bad form to gg before opponet. :/ Your doing good for a bronze player, polish up a bit and I expect to see ya in Diamond. I tend to disagree with most of his general advice except the "YOU HAVE TOO MUCH MONEY" thing. Spreading creep for example is a wonderful thing, but by the looks of the game you didn't have the mechanical power to spend your money efficiently, creep is not important at all compared to efficient droning/spending of money, ignore the fact that high level players do it for now. As for the "go into the game with a plan" and the quoted example he gave is completely useless to a zerg player. Do not ever go into a game saying "i'm going roach/ling this game and am going to harass early" or whatever, zerg is a reactionary race and you must play it as such, your army composition will depend entirely on your opponents' army composition. Also just to be picky, terran will not ALWAYS lose to zerg in a macro game unless either a) the terran has inferior macro or b) the terran does not force the zerg to build an army. In regards to the game itself, you are better than any bronze player I have seen, your macro was far from perfect but it was better than most gold/platinum players i have seen and you actually scout which is rare below gold, I expect you to rise fast once you get the mechanical power to play zerg. Keep playing games, learn when you can and cannot build drones, build your muscle memory and i expect you to rise quickly. edit: do TRY to spread creep by all means but do not make it a priority over general resources management. | ||
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Rowen
United States76 Posts
On October 19 2010 10:35 zbedlam wrote: In regards to the game itself, you are better than any bronze player I have seen, your macro was far from perfect but it was better than most gold/platinum players i have seen and you actually scout which is rare below gold, I expect you to rise fast once you get the mechanical power to play zerg. Thank you! It's nice to get some encouragement, although my recent win/loss records seems to be encouragement enough (I keep trying to post a replay of a loss, but I'm on a 14 game winning streak and I'm not about to "throw" a game just to get critiqued!) EDIT: Two new replays are posted, same opening, same end result. 15 game winning streak now, and going strong. | ||
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Skrattybones
Canada37 Posts
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Majblitz
2 Posts
Edit: Completely off-topic I know, but I felt the need to say it. | ||
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ddrddrddrddr
1344 Posts
For your zvp. Good early pressure. Keep your lings in front of your roaches because stalkers get bonus damage against lings and lings are cheaper. Also should stay a bit further back so if he dares come off the ramp to take pot shots, you can run the lings up, surround, kill the stragglers, and retreat. Your position was not optimal while you were bottling him. Angle toward the right so he can't easily cut off your escape path and reinforcement with force fields should you need it. He didn't even use his spells so it wasn't an issue but it could have been. You again did not upgrade your army. DO IT! Roach speed, attack, defense should all be priority when you had as much mineral as you did. Now that you're doing games where you outmacro the opponent by a lot, experiment with tier 3 units and infestors. You will be needing them later against stronger unit combinations and it's better to use it when you have power overwhelming at your disposal. Besides, nothing cooler than rolling 200 banelings down the street. If you're doing this every game, you should be at least platinum league. Interestingly enough I've stopped making mass mutas the same time I got into diamonds, just fyi. | ||
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AAT
Romania2 Posts
On October 19 2010 15:10 Majblitz wrote: I have to say that as a low level zerg player myself (Bronze), threads such as this really not only help me learn as well, but make me feel proud. I know it might be strange to say, but seeing all the help thrown Rowen's way just makes me feel better about being here at all. I want to thank everyone, including Rowen for asking for help. Edit: Completely off-topic I know, but I felt the need to say it. Hello to everyone, my first post here, long time lurker tho. I would like to thank everyone who put into this thread, thanks to Rowen for asking for help also. As a bronze player myself i stopped laddering and started cusotoms plus a hell lot of research around here, day9 and so on. It helped me immensly. I took day9 advice and started going one BO (5RR) and transitioning from it, practiced it alot and when i laddered yesterday i couldn t belive how much easier it seems now that i actually know what i am suposed to do even if it gets skewed sometimes (the timings mostly). I always wanted to come out here and say guys help me please, but i found out that no bronze level players posted because bronze is still stuck on 3 things: macro, spending resource and scouting. So i thought a 1600 diamond would simply say nothing to a thread like that, the answer is obvious. This thread also helped me so i thank you all for taking the time and look at Rowen s replays and also providing us with your thoughts on improving. tip hat to all of you and TL in general | ||
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Rowen
United States76 Posts
LOSS http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/92952-1v1-zerg-steppes-of-war | ||
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TheMilkMan
United States13 Posts
On October 19 2010 10:35 zbedlam wrote: I tend to disagree with most of his general advice except the "YOU HAVE TOO MUCH MONEY" thing. Spreading creep for example is a wonderful thing, but by the looks of the game you didn't have the mechanical power to spend your money efficiently, creep is not important at all compared to efficient droning/spending of money, ignore the fact that high level players do it for now. As for the "go into the game with a plan" and the quoted example he gave is completely useless to a zerg player. Do not ever go into a game saying "i'm going roach/ling this game and am going to harass early" or whatever, zerg is a reactionary race and you must play it as such, your army composition will depend entirely on your opponents' army composition. Also just to be picky, terran will not ALWAYS lose to zerg in a macro game unless either a) the terran has inferior macro or b) the terran does not force the zerg to build an army. In regards to the game itself, you are better than any bronze player I have seen, your macro was far from perfect but it was better than most gold/platinum players i have seen and you actually scout which is rare below gold, I expect you to rise fast once you get the mechanical power to play zerg. Keep playing games, learn when you can and cannot build drones, build your muscle memory and i expect you to rise quickly. edit: do TRY to spread creep by all means but do not make it a priority over general resources management. For one, we ARE talking about a bronze level player, and Im sorry, I totally disagree with the fact that, "I am going to react to everything the other player throws at me" I guess Im part of the old school where I prefer to force the player to react to me. Admittedly, I am a terran player and not a zerg player, and as it seems you ARE a zerg player, the only advice I can offer is from accross the battle lines. I do play Terran and I can say the one race I usually feel more comfortable with beating IS zerg. Not that I think that Terran is OP, but because I think zerg is just so hard to play. Thus, I will retract my advice in honor to yours, as I am a bronze level zerg player and a diamond level terran player. Also the fact that spreading creep NOW will help him develop good habit later? /shrug I agree you are at the very least a high gold low plat player, especially once you fine tune your mechanics. | ||
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zbedlam
Australia549 Posts
Also the fact that spreading creep NOW will help him develop good habit later? /shrug I agree, learning to spread creep is something that needs to be learned eventually, but generally players who have trouble spending their resources lack the mechanical practice to do so. He could follow either of our advice, I tend to find people will get better much quicker if they focus on something to improve on, rather than just general play and as such I just prioritised what should be improved on; but yeah either way would work fine imo. Mass mutas works great up until platinum league when people will start going thors, so keep that in mind as you enjoy muta harass for a while yet. This is 100% wrong, no other way to put it. Mutalisks will always be a standard unit in ZvT. I will explain why. Firstly in relation to thors, yes thors will demolish mutas if you 3a into them or w/e, however platinum level + zergs know how to "magic box" mutalisks against thors, if you search for this in TL forums you should get a guide on how to do it, PM me if you have any questions about it. ZvT is all about containment on both sides, the terran player wants to contain the zerg so he doesn't expand all over the place and the zerg player wants to contain the terran so he doesnt drop/cliff abuse/expand and just generally use you as a punching bag. Mutalisks are the best unit to facilitate this bar none, infestors are the only other viable unit I have seen used in place of mutalisks for containment. (fungal growthing drops, slowing his push etc.) This applies at all levels, in fact i would go as far to say that mutalisks are even more useful at higher levels due to the ammount of utility they have that lower level players would not use. | ||
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Rowen
United States76 Posts
WIN http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/92997-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis | ||
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