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Ok. I'm a Zerg, and i'm constantly getting hammered.
I just dont know what to build....
My main partner for 2v2's is a protoss.
It just seems that no matter what i try and build, someone always beats me down.
For instance.
We played some 2v2 map where the two players are on a raised ramp area with only one entrance.
I get in and scout our opponents. Oh yes, A zerg building a spawn pool, and a terran building a supply depot and rax to close off the bases entrance.
So they could build a MMM ball and rush heaps of lings/roaches/banelings to get into our base.
We get attacked with about 18 lings and some marines and marauders, and manage to defend them off.with some lings of my own, roaches, and my partners stalkers and 2 void rays he's just created. So my mate's gone AA and i've gone ground, but in comes a huge wave of banshee's and muta's....
It's like we'll scout, but then we cant see anymore because a ramp is blocked off, next thing you know you're attacked by a MMM ball and a huge zerg army of zerglings, roaches and hydralisks, while you've gone zergling/Mutalisk, and your mates gone zealot/void.
What it seems like is well, ok, theres a chance theyve gone air, but a chance they've gone mass ground too so how are we going to defend against that and beat them and counter, etc...
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I think making roaches in 2v2 is not a good choice... zergling with +1 attack banling and muta/infestor does better ...
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This sounds like mainly a scouting issue.
I play 2v2 Zerg/Terran and while terran has a scan, you don't see that much either.
Now a few weeks ago we played ZP and we found there was a horrible timing window where scouting is very hard for both Z and P - more so against two opponents. My solution was to suicide overlords in or (if I forget the earlier) to get an overseer ASAP and try and sneak changelings in while flying around/over their bases.
In 2v2 this issue is far more compound than on 1v1 because you have to scout two opponents. We often end up playing with only one enemy scouted - meaning you're half blind. This seems to be a general issue with 2v2s.
Just remember, the enemy also doesn't know what you're doing (or they shouldn't). In many ways 2v2 is very blind during the mid-game. So much can happen with 4 players - it's almost impossible to predict one action specifically.
Also, as Z in 2v2 it seems to be fatal to stay on T1 for too long. Unlike in 1v1 you should be aiming to tech up ASAP - for me thins often means even before my first expo is up. This is because zerg's T2 is simply so powerful (muta harras, infestor, roach+burrow, hydra) and combines very well with many units the other races have access to.
Edit: Agreed, Roaches are not very good in 2v2 - the exception being Protoss enemies it seems (for whatever reason).
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As a zerg player I've lost much of my faith in 2v2. While arguably weaker in 1v1, zerg is a big wildcard in 2v2, especially if they mass speedling push with ally, or are fed with muta. The terran / toss ally can break down walls with range, or banelings work as well. I've found that oftentimes solid zerg macro that works wonders in 1v1 is punished in 2v2 because opponents who rush double in early offensive power, and the ranged units are complemented by mass speedling (whereas just speedling or just ranged units are individually not so big a threat). This problem is compounded by maps where allies are separate, or where naturals are further away and down a ramp.
In short, early game all-in pushes work so often in 2v2 it's ridonkadonk. It's annoying to know that trying to play in a "good", "honest", "solid" fashion in team games gets punished, but that just comes with the territory. I've gotten a lot more into 1v1 since (and don't get me started on half of my diamond allies in 2v2 who know only one thing - mass stalker the entire game). In my opinion, 2v2 is the game mode where you'll most see lousy players beat decent players by merit of all-in pushing, and random team 2v2 is where you'll see the most number of diamond players who obviously got where they were by means of 1 gimmick every single game who have no game sense.
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yeah i thought so. I guess it's just very hard to judge for a zerg.
If I play against a zerg im either getting attacked with mass zerglings, or a few zerglings and VERY early mutalisk, or else lings/infestor burrowed shooting out infested terran everywhere...
Anyways thanks for the advice. If anyone else has more advice please send it along. I DEFINATELY NEED IT ;-P
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Well I play both as zerg and terran. I'm a big fan of zerg in 2v2 or 3v3 as opposed to terran, (tanks trying to gaurd 4-6 bases, or trying to defend minerals with infantry is huge pain). So the point is you won't get alot of scouting in 2v2, bot that's not that different from 1v1. The thing is you can't straight up macro as zerg like you can in 1v1. Surprise you need to do 2v2 different than 1v1.
Typically when i do team 2v2 the strat should go something long opening 1 basse play. I am a fan of 14 gas 14 pool opening. I do some poking around with my lings while teching to tier 2, if you leave 3 drones on gas you will have plenty of min/gas to get lair after your queens finishes. This is so I have a mobile army to help defend myself or my partner and is good at stopping cheese. If I see that they are going for 1 base play also I'll expand and grab the gas asap. I may not get fully saturated but I'll get the gas so I can build a reasonable counter army. The key is don't just sit around with the lings, poke inside thier bases, your speedlings you can run away from bad situations, force them to attack you if they are walled. For instance if you poke in and all thats firing back is 3-4 marines, expect tanks or banshee's. If you see maraduars repel you expect bioball. If you see cannons from toss expect void rays etc.
I feel that opening is very versatile and holds itself well against alot of play, can let me punish FE's but gives me the chance to repel early attacks or get the correct tech to stop Air. If they are turtling on 1 base by time you are to tier 2 feel free to expand, just don't open with FE. The only time i recommend opening FE is if your partner is cheesing. (8 reapers 10 pool, cannon rush etc) Your opponents will be so focused on stopping the cheese you should be able to get away with it and get on 2 base to make it 3 base vs 2 base.
Finally in mid game realize that mobility is sooo much more important than it is in 1v1 making things like roaches less valuable. My most common build is something like ling->muta-> t 3 unit of approriate choice. I am also big fan of 2 hatchery speedling overlord drop play against terrans that have seperate bases from partners, if walled in long prolly going high tech which tends to be weak vs speedlings in mass. Fast roach->Hydra if its a shared base map is also very good but you need shre base for it.
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I was sort of thinking of saying this earlier but didn't due to it being a little OT.
Thus far my experience in 2v2 is that - much like in 1v1 - you need some idea of what you want to do. You need a solid but adaptable game plan (possibly even more so than in 1v1). From there on it's really a bit of a gamble.
If you're ever played 2v2 arena in WoW, it's kinda the same feeling (some combos are just unbeatable). You just can't counter EVERY possibility the enemy *might* throw at you. The best you can do is go with what you've planned out and try and adapt if it fails.
I keep running into situations where I keep thinking: Shit, that was a dumb loss, why didn't we do <xyz>.
You get the same thing in 1v1 but due to the sheer number of possible combinatioins in 2v2, it takes a lot longer to get used to all of them. While there are some standard builds they tend to vary a lot more than in 1v1.
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You'll get pretty far by just keeping games short: lings/banes. Basic zerg spling micro and running all around really can do lots in right hands. Often you can kill one of them alone when speed pops, or just have managed to kill some units here and there. And ofc you can base strats on mutas also, though that's a bit more unreliable. But really, 2v2 games at top tend to be very hectic and are very often decided before you'd get to mutas or anything else t2.
While I like to diss zerg overall, they can be really useful with the provided mapcontrol with splings and also sort of all-around counterness with blings and splings, depending on opponent's army composition. It's a lot related to maps - in those where it's hard for opponents to unite their forces lings become so much better since you can often force 2v1's. You just have to be active and not wait in base until opponent makes the move, zerg in 2v2 is about taking the lead yourself very often.
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Hello. I am one of a handful of players that absolutely loves playing 2v2 competitively. I am currently ~1.2k points and 6th place in my Diamond Division.
In 2v2s, I've found the most important thing to do is to get an army that complements your ally's army. I consider a strong army to have units to kill light, armored, and air units. It is also INCREDIBLY helpful to have one player go air. I play Zerg with a Terran partner, and our standard build is scout to see how early you can expand (if they're not rushing I expo), and then go into muta/ling while my partner goes m/m with tank support. It has a bit of everything. Marines/Lings vs light, Marauders vs armor, Marines/Mutas vs air, and Mutas to keep them pinned in their base.
If you can build up that composition, you will usually win as long as your armies work together. NEVER get one army out of position. It is pretty much an insta-lose. Early, Middle, or Late game, you must have your armies together.
So let's talk about openings. I always scout on 9 to make sure they aren't going for proxy or rush. If it is proxy or rush, just defend as best you can, but as it is, it is a little imbalanced if they both go for rush, because they will just attack the weaker one. Discuss with your partner which part of the rush you and him will deal with. For example, if it is TZ you're up against, tell him to get stalkers to counter reapers, and get a lot lings and banelings asap to beat his lings.
If they are not rushing, it is critical to know when they are expanding. I send an overlord to both of their naturals every game I play. That way, I know if they are going for a 1 base all in and I know when I need to make more units. As a general rule, always keep scouting up and see what they're building. As Zerg, you don't have many tech options, but if they are going for certain 1 base plays, it is easy to hold off with the right counters. If they are going mass ling/marine for a huge timing push, get banelings. If zerg is getting roaches, you need to get your own roaches if you don't want to die. If you react correctly, you will be able to make enough units to survive while still getting ahead in economy.
The last thing to take note of is as Zerg, you will always get attacked first. Whether it is a rush or just a late game attack, you are always the first target because you have no way of walling. Expect to be the victim every single game. If they are going for a 10 pool, you are the target. Get spine crawlers/lings asap. Just going into the game knowing you will be attacked can be really valuable, as it allows your partner to play more greedily (fast tech, later gateways, fast expo, etc). Since you will always be the attack victim, it's okay if you play more defensively when they are going for some 1 base play. Feel free to build 2 or 3 spine crawlers and a seemingly unnecessarily large number of zerglings if you scout that they are not expanding. Even though your economy will be weak, your partner's will be booming, and ideally, he will have some nice tech available to help defend.
Hope to see you on the ladder!
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Nice post Archmage. Now i've played terran a shit ton and it will still be my primary race but occasionally i like to try zerg out in 3v3 with friends and i know if i build 1 rax 2 depots and 2 marines before tech lab i am 100% safe from any 10 rax reaper/6pool/proxy zlot rush of any sort and i still maintain the most economical build i can.
But when i play Zerg.. i'm unsure what to build that ensures my safety as well as the safety of my teammates. I usually 12 pool and get 5-7 roaches and some speedlings before i expand but i really feel that i would much prefer getting zerglings/banelings because they do compliment my allys army better than roaches (more often than not). But i just cant seem to use all my resources. Most people build an in-base hatchery.. though i find it kind of dumb to build an in base hatch when u could build it at an expo.. But there is usually some asshole who runs around with mass speedling fucking around with my expo when its building. I would much rather prefer to play more econ but still safe.
Im just wondering is there a way to spend all ur minerals off 1 base only making zerglings and banelings until you have a decent sized army that can defend ur expansion? maybe 2 gas and start getting early upgrades or tech fast.. i would prefer to get 2 queens before lair so i can get that creep spread goin on.. any suggestions? what kind of builds do you guys use?
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10 pool speedling harass works so well with my terran partner, he use reaper harass with my lings, and after make some damage we go for eco and then i switch to t2 (usually muta) he use different tech depending of our foes, and we try to deny their expos in middle game and reach t3 units with nice eco and constant harass (muta-lings/drops-reaper).
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Thanks for the compliment Veetz. It is pretty tricky as Zerg, as there is no magic number (as of yet) to when you should start and stop droning in order to hold off certain rushes. They way I see it, there are two types of rushes that are tricky to hold off early as Zerg.
There is the ultra fast rush (6 pool, 10 pool, proxy gateway, etc) that are designed to hit you before you have any real units out. If you scout this, just plop down your pool as fast as possible (as soon as you scout out what they're doing) and get a spine crawler + lings asap. There will still be an uncomfortable period, but remember, that you will always be the target, so have your ally come over to your base with one of his second zealot, or his first marine (terrans can completely wall off) as soon as possible. If you ally is a Zerg as well, one of you should 10 pool. I've seen this used very effectively where they will 10 pool, and if they don't see a rush, don't build lings. If they do scout rush, then they can get fast lings to fight with.
The other rush is a 1 base rush where they just work on building units for a timing push. These are trickier to stop because they are harder to scout. As a rule, your first overlord should always got to their naturals, and try to hide it so you can see when they expand, but they don't see your overlord. If you see one of them expanding or both, just play normal. If neither are expanding, they are going for a timing push. The hardest part is finding out what units you need to build. If you scout marines, stalkers, zerglings or tanks, you can expand and get away with building a lot of lings and banelings (very helpful vs marines and lings) to defend with. Just remember not to get overambitious with your droning (I do this roughly half the games I lose to these pushes). If you see lots of zealots, roaches, or a large number of marauders a thrown into the mix, you will not be able to hold it off if you expand. Just go 1 base roach (or 1 base ling if they have a ton of marauders) and expand after the push.
As for a general build order, I would suggest trying to make 14 Extractor 14 Pool standard. This sets you up for a solid early-mid game and lets you get very fast ling speed which is essential for scouting. If they aren't doing a very early rush or are going for one of the weaker of the 1 base plays, try to expand at around 21. It usually helps to delay your second queen and have the first one build one creep tumor first. This will let you expand at around 21 comfortably, but still have the flexibility to go roach if needed. After that, the difficulty starts to decline and you just need to out macro and out play. Just try to push your limits and find out exactly what you can and can't get away with and you'll rise to the top very quickly.
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He's toss, so couldn't you just send in a few hallucinations? I know it might not seem cost-effective, but the scouting might be invaluable. A couple sentries dedicated to scouting could go a long way. Sorry if this is bad advice- I'm a generally bad player =p It's just the first thing that came to mind.
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I have around 700 games played, only five of those being 1v1, my placement matches lol. Early game zerg totally depends on the comp you are facing. An opposing zerg is more threatening than any other race due to splings blings and mutas being so devastating to your econ. If there is another zerg I will usually 10 pool to be totally safe against the 6 pool. If I scout standard play from the zerg I just make sure to get my queen out as soon as the pool finishes instead of any lings so I can catch up on econ. If I scout a late gateway, zerg gas first with no saved larvae, or lack of a terran wall (never), I get 6 lings asap to harass pylons/workers, kill a queen as it pops, generally make them play defensively while picking up gas, droning and expanding around 25, upgrading ling speed then lair right when the first queen pops.
Aggressive play in the form of proxies, reapers, or 6 pools necessitate earlier gas for fast ling speed, a spine crawler or two, and an early evo chamber for +1. Don't put down the evo chamber till you can afford the upgrade when it finishes. I usually go +1 carapace against marines and chrono boosted forge, and +1 attack vs anything else. Only go roaches on the smallest maps if you scout bling/zeals, otherwise save your gas for mutas. I do have trouble late game, as holding a third expo can be really hard and on the shared base maps when everyone has two bases you just won't be able to contend with Terran/Toss that turtle, defend your mutas well, and move out with an upgraded army of hero units (thor + marine or colossus + blink stalkers). So vote down the shared base maps, they are awful for zerg.
Honestly I have the most trouble with Phoenix play since I usually go mutas. Some times you just can't punish them for going two stargate and pumping Pheonix with their allies defending, and the phoenix will just destroy your overlords/queens/drones/mutas. I honestly hate building Hydras in team games, the huge maps and inability to creep your teammates base make them defensive only plus they are super fragile. Infestors can work OK but I still cringe every time I see the outline of a Pheonix in a Stargate with a scouting OL.
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Just go f'in kill one. Don't worry too much about getting accurate scouting info for setting up a counter. Speedlings + stalkers, maybe mix in some banes, and just get your armies together. 2v1 is bad news for anyone. You'll probably see at least one guy's base.
Push or drone up, depending on how your initial pokes looked. One tactic that can win is doing a runby on the other guy with your reinforcement zerglings, instead of sending them to the initial target.
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chargelots + speedling. seal off and surround timing push. beat zerg to muta...harass. if he techs hard...rush him. they make anti air which protoss teammate makes psi storm and kills them while mutas take map control. done.
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Archmage has hit the nail on the head, you will be attacked, you must complement your allie.
So with this in mind, early lings to muta harass is pretty standard, you fall behind in econ but it allows your partner to macro up a HUGE army (most probably blink stalkers) and its constant pressure into a big push.
Second of all i notice my games aren't short in 2v2 playing as zerg, try going for a starvation tactic of taking bases and defending them.
On the same note over saturate bases, tasteless likes to say more then 2 drones per patch is a waste but in the unsuraty of 2v2 3 per patch works well.
Lastly if you guys look at my other posts i sling around i cant stress enough how good infested terrans are. instead of going mutas try going 5-10 infestors. Crazy right? 10 infestors = 80 ranged units that benifit from carapace and ranged attacks build in uhh 3 seconds? (not sure but its damn quick). Able to lob them into their army, up on cliffs, behind walls all from the safety of being burrowed. Hold of two pushes with your infestors + alllies units = you being ultra ahead in terms of army cost losses.
TLDR: Early game i favour around 50 +1 lings off one base if its seperated bases. If the base is shared with a free nat in your fortress i go 15 hatch 14 pool 13 gas then your set for the game.
Oh and my 2v2 partners are usually a bronze zerg or a terran with 7 1v1 ladder matches played and favours the campaign.
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i've made several experiences
if you go ling/bling and the other team has a good terran or protoss they will do almost zero damage if they go force fields and/or hellions; fortunately most toss use too much stalkers instead of more zealots and sentries - this means against a T+P team i dont recommend going ling/bling
if your ally is terran then going roaches in early game is a good choice because he can take care of marauders; the effectivity of roaches ends when the toss gets immortals out; then your options are mutas and hydras; infestors arent the best choice here; roaches are also ok if your ally is toss and goes sentry/zeal
in matchups that contain another zerg its a good idea to get an evolution champer and use your next 100 or 150 gas after ling upgrade; alternatively you can use that gas for some blings - both ways should give you an early advantage on the ground and put you ahead of the other zerg
most zerg players are going ling/mutas now - you have several options to react; one way is to go hydras which will require a lot of creep and i always get 3-4 spore crawlers which are quite underrated and underused but you have to see that killing one muta means -100 gas for your opponent; the other way is to go air yourself where i recommend a 3-1 ratio of mutas and corrupters - this way you will defeat your opponents air and still be able to attack the ground; last but not least you can switch the task of killing air to your ally which is an excellent choice if its a toss with awesome phoenix; if another zerg is involved its always a good idea to get infestors and if its T+Z its almost a must-have
if the other team is z+p a start with roaches and a transition into hydras is my preferred way to go since this combo will take out everything unless the other zerg does the same or toss has already colossi or high templars
in games of 3v3 and 4v4 im lately experimenting with going pure lings, upgrade them early and tech to ultra which will benefit of the same upgrades
(~900 diamond RT)
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Some great help in here, I have started to random in 3on3 and 4n4 and want to in 2on2 as well, but I suck with Zerg, the more I play im starying to get better but I sitll lose with some stupid errors!! With the help above hopefully push on my zerg randoming skills a lot more!!
Thanks
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I'd like to thank everybody who has posted thier help on here. It has given me hope in playing as a zerg in a 2v2 or a 3v3. I was soo close to calling it quits and just playing protoss myself.
The thing is, I find the other races so boring. Terran is boring and a bit difficult for me, and protoss, my APM slow down to half of what i have as zerg. I'm ALWAYS doing something with Zerg whereas with T or P i seem to be doing not nearly as much or enough.... I'm always walling in, etc....
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EPT
