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First time poster, yay.
Inspired by day9's latest cast, the noobie tuesday, I've made a little doodad to help you calculate how many unit-producing structures you can afford on any number of bases. You fill out which buildings you want to use, what mixture of units they should produce, and the doodad will tell you how much percent of your income is required to sustain it.
In day9's cast, he looks at a replay of a gold-level player that builds 3 warpgates and 2 stargates off 1 base, and they are mostly idle, since he doesn't have the income to use them.
The Protoss unit cost doodad is at:
http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/protoss.php
I'll add a Terran version probably tomorrow. The Zerg version requires a little more thinking, but shouldn't be too long after that.
Update: Terran version available at:
http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/terran.php
Update 2: Zerg version available at:
http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/zerg.php
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nice, is the Percentage of 1-base mining based on that 1 second mining rate or on production cycles of each building? Can't seem to 4 gate or 2 gate robo under 100%
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Well, both actually. 
A gateway consumes resources at a certain rate, expressed in minerals/second and gas/second. A base produces resources, similarly expressed. If it says 4-gate is 148% of your mineral production, that means that you consume 48% more minerals than 1 base can produce.
And that's not even taking into account chronoboosting, which increases your resource consumption quite a bit.
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I know chronoboosting increases your resource consumption if you use it on a warpgate, but what about when you use it on a Nexus. I can't find exact numbers, but I am pretty sure your probes bring in minerals faster when the Nexus is chronoboosted. Maybe it is 50% for 20 seconds, but it is definitely faster. Does this take into account if you are chronoboosting your Nexus (which happens quite a bit)?
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No, chrono-boosting your nexus will only affect the speed at which your probes are being trained (and motherships, of course ). The only way to increase the speed at which your workers gather minerals is to increase your gamespeed.
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This seems like it would be a cool site to create some offline templates from, but it sure is hard to look at. Kudos for the effort, but is there any way to make it a little more streamlined and not so cluttered?
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Only pro's can 100% utilize their production structures perfectly. Even at the 1400pts diamond level, 4 can be supported off 1 base because you do let them side idle just for a bit.
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1 probe and 1 zealot out of 1 nexus, 4-gate takes 158% of 1-base minerals? Somethingdoesntseemright.jpg
How are you calculating the building costs over time?
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On September 23 2010 23:45 MadNote wrote:
I know chronoboosting increases your resource consumption if you use it on a warpgate, but what about when you use it on a Nexus. I can't find exact numbers, but I am pretty sure your probes bring in minerals faster when the Nexus is chronoboosted. Maybe it is 50% for 20 seconds, but it is definitely faster. Does this take into account if you are chronoboosting your Nexus (which happens quite a bit)?
Chronoboosting doesn't increase mining speed at all.
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A warpgate allows you to warp in a zealot every 28 seconds. That's 100 minerals + 25 minerals (a quarter of a pylon) per 28 seconds, or 4.46 minerals per second.
Similarly, warping in probes costs 50 minerals + 12.5 minerals (an eighth of a pylon) per 17 seconds, or 3.67 minerals per second.
For 4 warpgates and 1 nexus, that sums up to 21.53 minerals per second. Significantly more than the 13.6 minerals per second that a fully saturated base provides. You can check the resource production in this thread.
It feels like you can afford 4 warpgates, because you aren't using them continually and you probably have some minerals saved up when you start warping in. Try it out in a skirmish against an easy AI and focus on nothing but the warpgates. You run out of minerals very quickly.
Oh, also, the cost includes the cost of pylons required to sustain your newly trained units. So if you build some surplus pylons in advance, that's part of the cost you already paid. And if your units die and you don't have to build new pylons, that's even more cost you don't have to pay.
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so you are counting zealot cost as 125, stalker as 150/50 and immortal like 300/100?
So any tech I want to add, I just divide the cost of the building/upgrade by its building time and compare with the leftover you provide us in the bottom of that page?
just realized, you didnt provide that  i was mental substracting the spending.
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On September 24 2010 00:38 CookieFactory wrote:
1 probe and 1 zealot out of 1 nexus, 4-gate takes 158% of 1-base minerals? Somethingdoesntseemright.jpg
How are you calculating the building costs over time?
It's about ratio. 1 probe and 1 zealot means nexus building probes 100% and gateways building zealots 100%
1 probe and 2 zealots+2stalkers+1 sentry = nexus with 100% probes, gateways constantly producing zealot/stalker/sentry in a 2:2:1 ratio.
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So, by your calculations, it is completely impossible to produce out of 4 warpgates continually, on 1base, even without probe production? What are you using for resources/minute? Found it...still seems weird though
Edit: I guess all the math/concepts make sense...I don't like how this program exposes the flaws in my macro skills 
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On September 24 2010 00:56 coltrane wrote:
so you are counting zealot cost as 125, stalker as 150/50 and immortal like 300/100?
So any tech I want to add, I just divide the cost of the building/upgrade by its building time and compare with the leftover you provide us in the bottom of that page?
Yes to the first question. That's the basic idea.
Partial yes to the second question. It is a little hard to get the math right for upgrades and such, because you only build them once, and you build units more like a continual stream. So your upgrade cost / time would only apply for a short period, about 2 minutes or so, less if you chrono-boost. After that, the cost / time of the upgrade is no longer part of the equation. I hope that makes sense.
Most people just skip a unit here and there to have enough resources for an upgrade or tech.
On September 24 2010 01:01 Ichabod wrote:
So, by your calculations, it is completely impossible to produce out of 4 warpgates continually, on 1base, even without probe production? What are you using for resources/minute?
Yes, scroll up a little bit for the exact numbers. If your units don't die and you constantly have to add pylons and warp in zealots, you won't have the resources for it. Not on one base.
I'm not saying 4 gates is not the right number. I think it really is, since very few people really continually warp in zealots with zero delay, and mostly since at least some your units will probably die. Plus, it never hurts to have a slight overproduction capacity. Just in case you do get behind on spending.
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Can you add an option that removes the cost of the pylon?
If I am only producing units to replace losses I don't to build additional pylons.
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This is really cool. I'll be looking forward to the Terran version! =)
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I will say, i tested it against my own build order (which i know really well) and its pretty much dead on.
I knew exactly where i was capped at 1 base, and my unit ratio, and it came back 95/98%
I assume the CB put me slightly over and my macro pulls me slightly back down. So I gotta say excellent job on this tool.
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On September 24 2010 00:41 LolnoobInsanity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 23:45 MadNote wrote:
I know chronoboosting increases your resource consumption if you use it on a warpgate, but what about when you use it on a Nexus. I can't find exact numbers, but I am pretty sure your probes bring in minerals faster when the Nexus is chronoboosted. Maybe it is 50% for 20 seconds, but it is definitely faster. Does this take into account if you are chronoboosting your Nexus (which happens quite a bit)? Chronoboosting doesn't increase mining speed at all.
Did this ever work? Maybe at some point during the BETA? I swear I didn't just make this up. I thought I read it somewhere. I could have made it up though ha.
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I would think that the amount of resources a warp gate uses varies greatly on what units it is producting. For example, a high templar and a sentry are of similar cost, but on has a much longer cooldown. Further more, how does this account for minerals vs. gas? You can 4 gate zealots and sentries off of one base and it will take a very long time to spend your minerals especially if you warped in the gateways progressively as your economy grew rather than all at once.
Dont get me wrong, what you are doing is awesome. However the data still needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
EDIT: just loaded the doodad, it takes unit comp into accout.
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Chronoboosting increases income INDIRECTLY by increasing your number of probes. All this math is assuming your base is completely saturated, so chronoboosting does not help your income at that point.
This goes to prove my theory: the reason warpgates reduce cooldown (build time) by 5 seconds being to make up for macro flaws (not being able to queue units). You can't press 4-z-z-z-z and keep microing in a battle or while focusing on something, you have to go back to your base and click 4 times to produce
1 base can support 4 gates by practice but not by theory. I don't think it's best to adjust our builds to our skill/playstyle, not the theory.
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On September 24 2010 03:33 MadNote wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 00:41 LolnoobInsanity wrote:On September 23 2010 23:45 MadNote wrote:
I know chronoboosting increases your resource consumption if you use it on a warpgate, but what about when you use it on a Nexus. I can't find exact numbers, but I am pretty sure your probes bring in minerals faster when the Nexus is chronoboosted. Maybe it is 50% for 20 seconds, but it is definitely faster. Does this take into account if you are chronoboosting your Nexus (which happens quite a bit)? Chronoboosting doesn't increase mining speed at all. Did this ever work? Maybe at some point during the BETA? I swear I didn't just make this up. I thought I read it somewhere. I could have made it up though ha.
Before the beta the protoss had another building that had a macro mechanic that increased the rate of mining as well as having a couple other abilities on it. This was removed when they added chronoboost to the game. It was never in beta.
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The value of this tool isn't to simulate how your base works. It cannot account for too many small details that really do play into the game. But it can show you some things.
You can view different army pushes and when you're at about 100%(200% for two bases) minerals you can attack/expand. Because the calculator accounts for plyons, it will always be cheaper to reinforce troops than to build them in the first place. The surplus minerals can either be fueled into extra gateways (thus in turn more cheaper troops faster) or an expansion. This effect is why the 4 warp gate push is so strong. Its not the 'surge of units'. Its the ability to keep them coming. Same reason why zerg is so baller late game.
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starting show it's a almost all in strat at 4 warpgate i normally thrown down a nexus before starting the agression with the 4 warpgates just so i can start saturating and maintain the agression.
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lol. awesome. i had been just trying to figure this stuff out on my own. nice!
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Good make. It's nice to know things like how I can make units off of 2 warpgates and 2 robos(2 immortal 1 collo) with 2 bases.
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On September 24 2010 04:16 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:33 MadNote wrote:On September 24 2010 00:41 LolnoobInsanity wrote:On September 23 2010 23:45 MadNote wrote:
I know chronoboosting increases your resource consumption if you use it on a warpgate, but what about when you use it on a Nexus. I can't find exact numbers, but I am pretty sure your probes bring in minerals faster when the Nexus is chronoboosted. Maybe it is 50% for 20 seconds, but it is definitely faster. Does this take into account if you are chronoboosting your Nexus (which happens quite a bit)? Chronoboosting doesn't increase mining speed at all. Did this ever work? Maybe at some point during the BETA? I swear I didn't just make this up. I thought I read it somewhere. I could have made it up though ha. Before the beta the protoss had another building that had a macro mechanic that increased the rate of mining as well as having a couple other abilities on it. This was removed when they added chronoboost to the game. It was never in beta.
Ahhh ok. I thought when they got rid of that (Obelisk I think) and replaced with chronoboost, the increased mining production came with it as well. Guess not.
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credits.
btw. did you use 16 probe saturation or 24?
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could you add a mule checkbox to the terran gismo pls? thx
edit: and maybe an option to only mine from one gas
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Ok, I'm guessing the numbers are so surprising because of the different cooldown times on units. This is certainly helpful, thanks.
Could you please allow it to show over how much time it would take to make these units?
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Edit: can you make the number of bases you're mining on an option, and not based on nexi?
Because it assumes i have 2 bases @ full production... why would i need to make probes off two bases? Follow me? I need to know 2 nexi off 1 base production...
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On September 25 2010 04:00 ensis wrote:
btw. did you use 16 probe saturation or 24?
24 Peons. As fully saturated as you can get. I may add an option to set the number of peons, or possibly a separate page for people to fiddle with the income for different peon distributions.
On September 25 2010 04:01 Cyrik wrote:could you add a mule checkbox to the terran gismo pls? thx edit: and maybe an option to only mine from one gas
Yes to the MULE checkbox. I dunno about mining gas. It's pretty easy to work out in your head that if you use 50% of your gas, you can do with one geyser. 
On September 25 2010 04:32 Scorcher2k wrote:
Could you please allow it to show over how much time it would take to make these units?
The focus is really on showing how many unit producing structures you can support off 1 or 2 bases, not how long it takes to train your army. That's an entirely different story, cause it depends on your build order, when you build your gateways, if you skip probes, etc. If you just want the raw numbers, they're available at Liquipedia 2.
If I misunderstood the question, can you give me an example of the sort of information you're looking for?
On September 25 2010 05:05 Roaming wrote:
Edit: can you make the number of bases you're mining on an option, and not based on nexi?
I can, and I will, after I've finished watching this morning's GSL matches. I figured that using the number of nexi would make things easier, but I can see there are scenarios in which you're mining off 1 base and building probes in 2 Nexi.
Thanks for the feedback, guys (and possibly gals).
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is this post or pre-patch?
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It uses patch 1.1 numbers. Liquipedia is up-to-date, so I didn't even need to think much about that.
New version includes:
- Configurable income (you select the number of bases, probes, geysers and it calculates your expected income);
- Tooltips with the cost and time-to-build for the units;
- Collapsible paragraphs for easier overview;
- Fixed bug where it showed only question marks in the results (IE only). Thanks to Ichabod!
Next stop: Zerg!
Please post bugs here of PM me.
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The numbers seem pretty spot on for 4 warpgates. A solid 4 warpgate push is usually just zealots and sentries, maybe a few stalkers at the most. Considering that and assuming a ratio of 2:1 zeal:sentry you are using 106% of minerals and 117% of gas while still producing probes and not making new pylons. So 4-warpgates is still a good idea in practice AND theory.
Kudos to the OP for this.
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Osaka27136 Posts
Changed title as per request.
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once made similar calculations by my own, don't quite get the numbers - if i use 1 warpgate constantly pumping out zealots i should type 1 warpgate and 1 zealot in fields, so it means that I spend 100 minerals every 28 seconds, rate is 3.57 why do I get 4.46 / sec in this calculator instead?
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On September 28 2010 21:14 NETRAT wrote:
once made similar calculations by my own, don't quite get the numbers - if i use 1 warpgate constantly pumping out zealots i should type 1 warpgate and 1 zealot in fields, so it means that I spend 100 minerals every 28 seconds, rate is 3.57 why do I get 4.46 / sec in this calculator instead?
Because you have to build Pylons to produce the Zealots. Every 4 Zealots you need 1 Pylon for 100 Minerals, that means your Zealots actually cost 125 Minerals (25% more).
3.57 Min/Sec * 1.25 (25% cost for pylons) = 4.46 Min/Sec
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thats great, ty for explanation, thats why u can't actually afford 4 gates
i was always thinking about full scale BO simulation to extract and compare timings
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Very awesome calculator. Thanks for doing this!
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On September 28 2010 22:02 Morfildur wrote:
Because you have to build Pylons to produce the Zealots. Every 4 Zealots you need 1 Pylon for 100 Minerals, that means your Zealots actually cost 125 Minerals (25% more).
3.57 Min/Sec * 1.25 (25% cost for pylons) = 4.46 Min/Sec
So very true.
There are even more hidden costs to the production of a Zealot, but they are very minute in comparison. For example, the time it takes for a Probe to move to the intended location of the Pylon and the short delay while it initiates the building are time it isn't spending mining. For a Protoss, the cost is usually very small.
For Terrans, however, there is a very significant hidden cost to each structure, since the SCV spends quite a while building it. A supply depot takes 30 seconds to build, that's the equivalent of 4 roundtrips of a mining SCV, or 4 * 5 = 20 minerals lost. Add another 8 seconds or so for the trip to the supply depot and back, well, you get the idea.
The true cost of a supply depot is in the neighborhood of 130 minerals, about 30 more than the displayed cost. Spread over 8 marines, it's an average of 4 more minerals per marine = 8%. I'll add a checkbox to include that cost, since it really does stack up.
The math for Zerg is much harder and depends on a lot of factors.
UPDATE:
- Added a section at the bottom which shows you how often a unit is produced (like "1 Probe per 17 seconds")
BTW, if anyone has suggestions for calculators I can build, let me know (PM or in this thread). I'm wanting to build a lot more of them for all aspects of SC2.
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This is real nifty, I love it. One thing, though - I find it much easier to see say, 94% usage of minerals and say "Ok, I have 6% surplus" in my head than I do to see 20.99 minerals consumed and 22.4 minerals mined and say "Ok, I have 1.41 minerals per second surplus".
And while I can see the use of a percentage figure, seeing the surplus displayed as minerals per second gives me a better concept of what I can potentially do with the surplus.
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Lol , without this tool , I'd never know that I can't support building 1 Marauder , 1 Siege Tank , 2 Medivacs at the same time haha , I always thought it was just the right amount of gas.
Anyways , real nifty tool to have , and thank you a lot for it.
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Ooh, this is handy!
I like planning out build orders on my netbook, but always had trouble mathing it out :p
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Really great little tester. It looks like it's possible to support 100% roaches, just.
On a side (not bitter at all) note, mining without mules - 13.6 min /sec. Mining with mules - 16.5 min /sec. = 21.3% more mins for terran!
Not to worry, this merely means there's more of terran to obliterate with fruit!
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On September 30 2010 09:55 Fugue wrote:
And while I can see the use of a percentage figure, seeing the surplus displayed as minerals per second gives me a better concept of what I can potentially do with the surplus.
Gotcha, I'll add that right now.
On September 30 2010 16:46 voss wrote:
Not to worry, this merely means there's more of terran to obliterate with fruit!
Lol, this is probably the only forum where you can get away with that reference.
Actually, Protoss and Zerg build peons faster at no added cost, whereas Terrans have to spend 150 minerals and skip building 2 SCVs. I wouldn't say Terrans necessarily get the better bargain here.
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Really nice work. Offcourse there are alot of if's etc to the actual value of the numbers but it's very good to have a baseline to see how many production buildings you need.
In general protoss seem to make way more warpgates then neccesary (on 1 base or 2 bases and just expanded 2 gate and 1 robo is really enough if you chronoboost the robo).
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This is really, really useful. Thanks alot.
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On September 23 2010 22:41 Haploid wrote:First time poster, yay. Inspired by day9's latest cast, the noobie tuesday, I've made a little doodad to help you calculate how many unit-producing structures you can afford on any number of bases. You fill out which buildings you want to use, what mixture of units they should produce, and the doodad will tell you how much percent of your income is required to sustain it. In day9's cast, he looks at a replay of a gold-level player that builds 3 warpgates and 2 stargates off 1 base, and they are mostly idle, since he doesn't have the income to use them. The Protoss unit cost doodad is at: http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/protoss.phpI'll add a Terran version probably tomorrow. The Zerg version requires a little more thinking, but shouldn't be too long after that. Update: Terran version available at: http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/terran.phpUpdate 2: Zerg version available at: http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/zerg.php
It's awesome work!!
Can you build a desktop applicattion also?
thx!!
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On October 03 2010 09:37 woody_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 22:41 Haploid wrote:First time poster, yay. Inspired by day9's latest cast, the noobie tuesday, I've made a little doodad to help you calculate how many unit-producing structures you can afford on any number of bases. You fill out which buildings you want to use, what mixture of units they should produce, and the doodad will tell you how much percent of your income is required to sustain it. In day9's cast, he looks at a replay of a gold-level player that builds 3 warpgates and 2 stargates off 1 base, and they are mostly idle, since he doesn't have the income to use them. The Protoss unit cost doodad is at: http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/protoss.phpI'll add a Terran version probably tomorrow. The Zerg version requires a little more thinking, but shouldn't be too long after that. Update: Terran version available at: http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/terran.phpUpdate 2: Zerg version available at: http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/zerg.php It's awesome work!! Can you build a desktop applicattion also? thx!!
Why do you need a desktop application? Just hit ctrl+s and save the entire webpage to your computer.
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Wow this is pretty gosh darn awesome.. All my safe expand builds seems to be way too expensive =/
What comforts me, is that even HuK seems to be doing a 2gate colossi into expand build, and affording it =)
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Thank u so much for this. this will really help since i usually dont have enuf income to support my structures. very useful tool for all players.
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no mule, 1 rector-rax, 2 tech-rax marauder, 1 reactor-startport medivac, uses the exact same excess of minerals as vespene... neat.
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lol, no wonder I always feel super-gas-starved when building mutas:
Vespene Gas 3.8 / sec 13.33 / sec -9.53 / sec 351%
I don't understand how the zerg one works though, it doesn't seem like it's asking you for enough data. How many hatcheries, whether there's a queen or not, etc.
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Just realized why the zerg one isn't asking for that data. It's not doing any larvae calculation, just spawn time.
Zerg production relies on larvae. Any chance you'd be willing to add larvae consumption? That would allow zerg to get a MUCH more clear picture.
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On October 03 2010 16:07 Skrag wrote:
Just realized why the zerg one isn't asking for that data. It's not doing any larvae calculation, just spawn time.
Zerg production relies on larvae. Any chance you'd be willing to add larvae consumption? That would allow zerg to get a MUCH more clear picture.
No, actually, the Zerg calculator uses larva spawn timing, and completely ignores the unit spawn time. Only the number of larvae per minute determines how fast you can build units. You can find this under the header Income. Just click on Income and you can fill out the number of bases and queens you use. It also tells you how many larvae per second you can spawn.
On October 03 2010 11:02 mskaa wrote:
Wow this is pretty gosh darn awesome.. All my safe expand builds seems to be way too expensive =/
What comforts me, is that even HuK seems to be doing a 2gate colossi into expand build, and affording it =)
I watched a replay of one of Huk's games just yesterday where be did exactly that. He didn't actually continually use his warpgates once the colossi start producing. But he produced more warpgates units than he could've out of a single warpgate, so it's not like the second gate is useless. Plus, it's needed as part of his early game (one gate is so naked), and he can use it fully again when he gets his second base up, so really it's just a few minutes of partially unused gate-time.
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For people wondering how to fit it in, Chrono Boost increases production of a base by around 3%, so if you use it all, you should be around 96-98% of your mineral and gas consumption in order to still use 100% resources.
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Very nice calculator!
Although currently, it mostly seems to only be telling me what I already know due to trial and error, but I expect this will help me manage some of the more obscure compositions off 3 base a little more painlessly.
Thank you very much!
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Very cool concept if it works. Is this calculator including the cost of the fleet beacon for carriers?
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On October 04 2010 01:42 Dionyseus wrote:
Very cool concept if it works. Is this calculator including the cost of the fleet beacon for carriers?
No, it assumes you've already built whatever structures you need to build your units. This calculator is just for seeing how many unit producing structures you can have working at the same time. So it's about the resource consumption per second, not about fixed cost build-once structures.
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Is there any way you could change the amounts of bases to amount of mineral patches instead? For instance, on iCCup maps, your natural will have from 5 to 7 mineral patches, so you'll saturate at 15 to 21 workers instead of 24.
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On October 04 2010 11:00 justicewoot wrote:
Is there any way you could change the amounts of bases to amount of mineral patches instead? For instance, on iCCup maps, your natural will have from 5 to 7 mineral patches, so you'll saturate at 15 to 21 workers instead of 24.
Since a natural with 5-7 patches should (will most likely) produce 5/8 to 7/8 of the minerals per minute that a full base (8 rocks) would produce, you can convert the numbers into a percentage and just treat that as the maximum income instead (and tweak the other stuff to make it work).
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On October 04 2010 11:00 justicewoot wrote:
Is there any way you could change the amounts of bases to amount of mineral patches instead? For instance, on iCCup maps, your natural will have from 5 to 7 mineral patches, so you'll saturate at 15 to 21 workers instead of 24.
Done. You can now choose the number of patches for each base separately. I've seen some sweet community maps in the iccup. I hope they find their way into ladder roulation at some point.
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Very interesting to consider. Excess production is not a bad thing imo. This should give an idea of how vital expansions are to constant unit production though.
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On October 04 2010 07:30 Haploid wrote: No, it assumes you've already built whatever structures you need to build your units. This calculator is just for seeing how many unit producing structures you can have working at the same time. So it's about the resource consumption per second, not about fixed cost build-once structures.
So can I interpret this as the calculated consumed/mined percentage gives me an idea of my ability to tech up and expand as well as sustaining a desired build mix? For example, a 90% consumption gives me a very, perhaps outrageously, large margin to work with for preparing to expand or buy that upgrade I need.
BTW, thank you. This saves a lot of trial and error in figuring out your macro and avoid builds that wreak havok on your economy.
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why doas a overlord cost 1 control?
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On October 20 2010 21:26 Braunbaer wrote:
why doas a overlord cost 1 control?
It doesn't. Where do you see Overlord taking up supply?
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I am having an issue when trying a 9 Overlord, 14 Extractor build. It seems to build my extractor at 13 supply. Any reason for this?
Awesome tool btw, thanks for creating it.
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maybe this has been spotted/ explained already:
In a FASTER game MULES mine 270mins in his life (90sec) I think.
on your page it says "mule only" 2,9 min/sec *1,21 speedtime upgrade = 3,501 * 90sec = 315,81 =|270
what did I wrong..? or is there an error in your site?
Thanks
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I could be misunderstood but I feel I've found an error in your math for SCV mineral mining times. I feel also that after reading your method, mine (no pun intended) is inherently more accurate. On faster speed, I timed 1 SCV from the moment it spawned until the moment it returned the 1000th mineral. To ensure precision, I rallied the CC at the closest mineral patch, and saved right before the SCV spawned. I then repeatedly reloaded until I was sure I started the timer at the exact split second it spawns.
From then, twice in a row, I noted the time at 500 minerals and 1000 minerals. Both times: 500 = 9m:21s and, as would be expected, 1000 = 18m:42s. For clarification, I actually sat there doing and observing this through two 18m:42s sessions.
1000minerals/1122seconds=0.8912655971479501minerals/1seconds
In other words on faster mode, 1 SCV can mine as fast as .89 minerals per second.
But your calculator shows 1 SCV mining at .847 minerals per second (.7 minerals per second with a 21% increase).
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Thanks, I was going to research all this and do the math by hand because I can't code anything - gonna help me a lot, thanks again!: D
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@calculator interesting your comment - but not sure if you included the fact that 3 scvs on a mine digg less - than 3 on 3. So 1 on 1 mine might have the highest min/sec but once you have more than 2 the numbers fall down. Did you incldue this in your calculation?
my test shows: (on faster)
mines:
8 worker on 8 mines -> 40 mines /minute/worker
16 worker on 8 mines -> 40 mines /minute/worker
32 worker on 8 mines -> 32 mines /minute/worker
on gas:
1worker=44gas/minute(44/worker)
2worker=88gas/minute(44/worker)
3worker=116gas/minute(28/worker)
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It's true adding a third SCV doesn't increase production by .89mins/sec; wait time accounts for the diminished return. There's a lot of math and timing I want to rework, last night I was particularly interested in determining the maximum potential of a single SCV on minerals (specifically, the income generated by the first trained SCV, aka the 7th SCV).
My immediate goal is to work out the hard math and timing of the first/main base, the early early stuff, everything up until an expansion is established. My ultimate goal is to make a build calculator unlike anything out now, one that you can input your attack plan and it will automatically generate the fastest builder order that doesn't interrupt production of SCVs.
Right now it's valuable (to me) to note that an SCV (on an unsaturated patch) doesn't actually generate his in-theory income of .89/sec, but rather in practice he generates income of 5 minerals every 5.617977528089888 seconds, beginning 13.43 seconds after you spend 50 minerals to start his training. I don't know how far off topic I am but I don't think I should take it any further lol. I'll probably start a new thread with interesting specific timings, and my methods for determining them, so others can put them to valuable use.
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On October 29 2010 06:55 neverlast wrote:
In a FASTER game MULES mine 270mins in his life (90sec) I think.
on your page it says "mule only" 2,9 min/sec *1,21 speedtime upgrade = 3,501 * 90sec = 315,81 =|270
what did I wrong..? or is there an error in your site?
Thanks
MULEs last 90 seconds on Normal gamespeed, so that's 90 / 1.21 = 74.4 seconds on Faster gamespeed. If you take that into account, you'll see that the total mineral mined by a MULE comes to ~260 minerals.
Liquipedia lists 240-270 minerals for a single MULE, depending on the distance to the patch you put it on. I chose to assume the player makes a slightly above average choice on which patch to mine.
On November 01 2010 17:15 calculator wrote:
From then, twice in a row, I noted the time at 500 minerals and 1000 minerals. Both times: 500 = 9m:21s and, as would be expected, 1000 = 18m:42s. For clarification, I actually sat there doing and observing this through two 18m:42s sessions.
1000minerals/1122seconds=0.8912655971479501minerals/1seconds
In other words on faster mode, 1 SCV can mine as fast as .89 minerals per second.
But your calculator shows 1 SCV mining at .847 minerals per second (.7 minerals per second with a 21% increase).
Yeah, I did the exact same thing, only for shorter periods, and I did end up with roughly the same numbers as you. But that's on the nearest patch to the CC. You get less minerals per second from farther patches.
I also ran the same experiment with exactly one miner on each patch on a normal base on Steppes of War. My results there were completely in line with PiousFlea's calculations (link). An average mining rate of about 0.69 minerals per second per probe.
I also found the calculations of sc2mathematician (link), who comes up with significantly lower mining rates. I haven't been able to discover why his numbers differ from mine, which is a bit unsatisfying.
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I seem to have found a bug with the minerals mined/sec calculation. The setup: terran calculator (but this happens for all races), 2 normal bases, 24 scvs each, with mules, geysers don't matter in this. Now, if I switch the first base to high yield, minerals mined/sec goes up from 33.0 to 34.8. Then, if I switch the first base base back to normal and switch the second base to high yield, minerals mined/sec goes from 33.0 to 41.4. They should be identical right?
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On December 02 2010 12:19 alcapwned wrote:
I seem to have found a bug with the minerals mined/sec calculation. The setup: terran calculator (but this happens for all races), 2 normal bases, 24 scvs each, with mules, geysers don't matter in this. Now, if I switch the first base to high yield, minerals mined/sec goes up from 33.0 to 34.8. Then, if I switch the first base base back to normal and switch the second base to high yield, minerals mined/sec goes from 33.0 to 41.4. They should be identical right?
They should, yes, and they are now. It erroneously counted all bases as high yield bases if the last base was one. I fixed it.
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I think you need to add functionality for building queens to the zerg production calculator.
I think this is especially important as we are going to see the zerg metagame evolve to include much more queen-centric builds (IMO).
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I do feel like the Zerg one needs a queen calculation, players like me use them.
but for now im just adding in corruptors and ignoring the gas they take
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i kinda miss an option to make like 2 observers and then iam totally done with observers. Also i often times like to get 7phenix then iam totally done with phenixes and only add voidrays - you cant do that with this tool.
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Wow this is unbelievably amazing. I realize there are a lot of variables that can make the calculator a bit off, but the fact that you get a general idea of what you can afford off of several bases is absolutely invaluable to me. I can't believe I never found this before. I'm glad I finally did :D
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Hope it's okay that I bump this, as I have a question. For terran, what does it mean when I change the number of command centers? For example, if I want to simulate two bases worth of production, I guess I would also specify that I have two command centers? But if I change the number of command centers (regardless of how many bases I have), then the final percentages change. I'm not sure I understand that, since the cost of a command center is a one-time cost, similar to the cost of building the production buildings, which you've already said that you don't account for.
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Thanks a lot man! V useful for theorycrafting builds
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Very cool but does not account for queens. I Think.
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On March 04 2011 03:05 enigmaticcam wrote:
Hope it's okay that I bump this, as I have a question. For terran, what does it mean when I change the number of command centers? For example, if I want to simulate two bases worth of production, I guess I would also specify that I have two command centers? But if I change the number of command centers (regardless of how many bases I have), then the final percentages change. I'm not sure I understand that, since the cost of a command center is a one-time cost, similar to the cost of building the production buildings, which you've already said that you don't account for.
It is how many command centers you will be making SCVs out of to account for those minerals and required supply depots.
If you expand the income section then click on "more bases" it will add an additional base and you can see the percentages correctly for the correct number of saturated bases.
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On March 04 2011 05:20 Eeryck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 03:05 enigmaticcam wrote:
Hope it's okay that I bump this, as I have a question. For terran, what does it mean when I change the number of command centers? For example, if I want to simulate two bases worth of production, I guess I would also specify that I have two command centers? But if I change the number of command centers (regardless of how many bases I have), then the final percentages change. I'm not sure I understand that, since the cost of a command center is a one-time cost, similar to the cost of building the production buildings, which you've already said that you don't account for. It is how many command centers you will be making SCVs out of to account for those minerals and required supply depots. If you expand the income section then click on "more bases" it will add an additional base and you can see the percentages correctly for the correct number of saturated bases.
So it's not the CC itself, it's the double-production of SCVs and the supply depots the SCVs will need. That makes sense. I guess I assumed it was calculating under the assumption that I've already made all the SCVs to saturate the bases fully, but in a real-world context that wouldn't happen till the late-game. Thanks!
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Can you please add the ability to receive resources from your partner at 5:00? Phenomenal utility btw many thanks!
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Has this been updated for the changes in ghost cost and sentry build time?
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Concerning the Zergling, one larva produced two Zerglings, so if I produce twice as much Zerglings as Roaches in your sheet, does that mean I spend larva 1:1?
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I can update the code to the latest patches... but i require his permition. I sent him a message but he is not responding.
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On July 15 2011 20:23 Uraotoko wrote:
I can update the code to the latest patches... but i require his permition. I sent him a message but he is not responding.
Im sure he can probably do it himself since he did make it in the first place ^^
It would probably be good to keep it updated with each patch, reduced obs build time and zealot time and increased stim are the only things i can think of other then the ghost change, also i dont think stim can be included because its not a unit
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he definetly can do it, the question is when will he do it
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for the zerg calculator is there any way to factor in queens? there isnt a lot for it with the rest of the units
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Awesome, man. Thanks for your hard work!
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On July 16 2011 14:41 InfamousSC2 wrote:
for the zerg calculator is there any way to factor in queens? there isnt a lot for it with the rest of the units
Kinda hard to have queens in the factor as the larva inject wont be perfect from the player so its hard to count that in
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The command
@100 gas Metalbolic Boost
Does not work, but the command
@100 gas Supply Depot
Does work, what gives?
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This was some intressting shit, anyone knows of a version for HOTS? would love it.
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EPT
