Im Just wondering what are the ppl thoughs of this Game, the use of Ghost? The Never ending issue of Terran 1, 1.5, 2 Tier units vs Whole toss (in this case) Tech tree ( I know he uses BCs so its not Only 1 & 2 Tier but thats Just towards the End so...)
Are Ghost a little too much to deal with efectively? (Dont say feedback come on try to feedback a cloaked Ghost who will AOE u not even on sight with greater distance and in a blob of MMM ...)
Please be objetive dont go Rage trolling all over the place. and try to keep it capitan obvius free.
Im also aware that there will be a lot of OP/Imba cryings but what im looking for its a very objetive and cold analysis/opinion about the situation how wud it had been a better way to handle it and if i missing something.
My opinion its that Ghost preatty much makes worthless 2 of the 3 tech trees avaible he makes templars useless, (both since emp decloaks) he makes inmortals useless Only coloss have a chance and still... and this is Just 1 unit, dont forget that marauders makes ur gateways units useless
Against Brat_OK's style (heavy rine/ghost) you really need colossus. You can play templar tech against it, but it's the inferior choice. Colossus are really really good against Marines and since they're not reliant on their shields or mana it means your army isn't going to get too hurt by EMPs (since the bulk of the strength of your army is in your colossus).
Many terrans aren't playing this style because Colossus counters it so hard, with that said it's still playable but you'd have an easier time with mech or standard marauder/medivac/tank.
PvT is remarkably fun at the moment, aside from the early game cheese. The midgame/lategame already has a nice feel to it.
WhiteRa lost way to many high templars in that game when he could have pulled them away and made them into Archons. Bratok got very good EMP while WhiteRa's storms were lacking.
Ok first of all Ghost don't make High Templars useless. Its a large battle between feedback and EMP, but if you spread your templar and keep good tabs on them then you should be able to get enough storms off. Second of all if ou get good positioning and a good flank marauders wont be able to kite across the map, and marauder rushes aren't actually hard to defend as long as you aren't greedy (skipping the first zealot). Its just a matter of saving stalkers and pulling probes when necessary.
Weell, I encourage all 'Toss players (me included) to just use your signature as the answer to this.
That being said, Hiding Templars and using them effectively is what really evens the battle for me. That ghost has about 2 seconds to EMP my Templar before his storm gets off and it's GG for his marines. Really it's not a very micro intensive battle, but it's a micro race.
ROLF @ Huskys video. . Watch him for entertainment, not to learn anything unless your in bronze/silver league. Obv. Mauraders wins in huge numbers vs zealots alone and vs stalkers alone, and vs sentries only. However 100 vs 100 battles are comlpletely irrelevant. Why did he not try 10 vs 10? And the answer is not mostly stalkers. Its the other way. Mostly zealots vs bio. 5 zealots +3 stalkers + 2 sentries seems like a good mix. And yes gateway units can easily rape bio. Even bio with ghost, stim + medis get owned by HT,chargelots.
I wouldn't worry about that White-Ra vs BratOK game, as whitera made countless mistakes and miss micros. To beat terran as protoss you really need to have good control of your army and whitera just had an off game there.
This is a terrible example of Protoss play. White-ra must have been drunk, or being punched in the back of the head, or sleep deprived or something, because he played HORRIBLY. I knew it would only be a matter of time before Protoss players (like me) would be using this game as an excuse to nerf Terran, when in reality, this was just White-Ra's poor performance, rather than the power of Terran that threw the game.
White-Ra, I love you, but this game was far far from one of your proudest moments...
EDIT: White-Ra had very poor unit control in this game. He let countless HT die with energy, clump up for EMP, miss perfectly good locations for Psistorms, and often had his army caught in terrible locations. That is why he lost. This had little to do with the power of Ghosts, EMP/Snipe, his composition, etc etc.
Also from the recent games I've seen from brat_ok it seems like he mainly goes the 1/1/1 tank/raven/bio style now. I like ghost/marine but it's pretty hard to play against a collosus build.
On August 23 2010 08:14 Plexa wrote: Against Brat_OK's style (heavy rine/ghost) you really need colossus. You can play templar tech against it, but it's the inferior choice. Colossus are really really good against Marines and since they're not reliant on their shields or mana it means your army isn't going to get too hurt by EMPs (since the bulk of the strength of your army is in your colossus).
Many terrans aren't playing this style because Colossus counters it so hard, with that said it's still playable but you'd have an easier time with mech or standard marauder/medivac/tank.
PvT is remarkably fun at the moment, aside from the early game cheese. The midgame/lategame already has a nice feel to it.
I find it to be strange to say that Colossus "counter" something because it takes forever to get to them. Robo, Robo Bay, Range, and the Colossus take forever and a day. If you see Ghosts, which is difficult since they can cloak, aren't particularly obvious looking, and require a tech building that can be hidden, by the time you make your first Colossus it's pretty much a moot point as it's been so long they might be doing something completely different. You pretty much have to decide to go them or not to go them.
And Terrans don't play Ghosts because they don't need really need to. Going for a Starport is far, far better than going for an Academy. Medivac, Raven, Banshee, Viking is better than anything a Ghost gives you.
I'm not fresh off the replay, but I recall that there was some decently heavy Immortal play during this game which is really the only major reason to get Ghosts as Zealot/Immo is really strong otherwise.
That said, if I remember the replay correctly the Protoss player did a really bad job microing his Templar. Ghost don't counter Templar, nor do Templar counter Ghosts. It's strictly a micro duel. Personally, I like Warp Prism + Templar in this case since I can minimize my Templar vulnerability and also pull them out of danger once they are done.
You also have to understand how hard it is to do what Brat_ok did against white-ra. I know even a lot of diamond terran struggles with the bio ball against toss because of the sentry, stalker, immortals, colossus composition. It is so easy for the protoss to split up the army in two with forcefields and colossus just owns marines/ghost with the range upgrade. If your lower level player, you honestly don't need to worry about the case with the emps too much.
On August 23 2010 08:25 Hider wrote: ROLF @ Huskys video. . Watch him for entertainment, not to learn anything unless your in bronze/silver league. Obv. Mauraders wins in huge numbers vs zealots alone and vs stalkers alone, and vs sentries only. However 100 vs 100 battles are comlpletely irrelevant. Why did he not try 10 vs 10? And the answer is not mostly stalkers. Its the other way. Mostly zealots vs bio. 5 zealots +3 stalkers + 2 sentries seems like a good mix. And yes gateway units can easily rape bio. Even bio with ghost, stim + medis get owned by HT,chargelots.
Exactly. Actually the marauder video is just silly. Marauders are obviously really good vs stalkers, but in realistic battle (let's say around 30 supply or something around that) chargelots just obliterate marauders, and are still good even if the opponent micros. Moreover the marauders are in a corner, just were zealots cant get a good concave/wrap around them properly. I quite agree with people saying that marauders are too cheap compared to stalkers, but really, that video makes just no sense whatsoever. As a protoss player I'd love to see people just going mass marauder in diamond, that's just not the problem with terran.
While talking about bratOK video, whitera played pretty bad compared to his beta ph1 standards. I've seen him doing way better, terrans imbalance or not.
I have to say ppl tend to disregard micro especially when talking hts vs ghosts, brat's style is extremely micro intensive in that if he misses a single ht in EMP his entire army could be wiped out in a few seconds, and i feel not enough ppl give him credit for that.
Hes really banking heavily on his micro and teetering on a knifes edge, 1 bad emp and it could be it for his rine heavy play style. Sometimes its sad to see the hard work put into some amazing micro being tossed aside in lue of justified or unjustified controversies with the ghost as a unit.
On August 23 2010 08:25 Hider wrote: ROLF @ Huskys video. . Watch him for entertainment, not to learn anything unless your in bronze/silver league. Obv. Mauraders wins in huge numbers vs zealots alone and vs stalkers alone, and vs sentries only. However 100 vs 100 battles are comlpletely irrelevant. Why did he not try 10 vs 10? And the answer is not mostly stalkers. Its the other way. Mostly zealots vs bio. 5 zealots +3 stalkers + 2 sentries seems like a good mix. And yes gateway units can easily rape bio. Even bio with ghost, stim + medis get owned by HT,chargelots.
Exactly. Actually the marauder video is just silly. Marauders are obviously really good vs stalkers, but in realistic battle (let's say around 30 supply or something around that) chargelots just obliterate marauders, and are still good even if the opponent micros. Moreover the marauders are in a corner, just were zealots cant get a good concave/wrap around them properly. I quite agree with people saying that marauders are too cheap compared to stalkers, but really, that video makes just no sense whatsoever. As a protoss player I'd love to see people just going mass marauder in diamond, that's just not the problem with terran.
While talking about bratOK video, whitera played pretty bad compared to his beta ph1 standards. I've seen him doing way better, terrans imbalance or not.
Yeah, Husky's video is pretty biased. And I say this as a Protoss player.
husky's videos are not really biased, he stated himself that those are just shear number and that in reality micro would be used and there would be different unit compositions
as for the game if you are really good you can feedback the ghosts, in fact the game right after between NightEnD and Merz, the protoss player does a really good job of going charglots, hight temps, immortals, archons and phoenixes
he used the charglots/archons and storm to take out the infantry ball while he used the phoenixes to take out the tanks and sometimes the ghosts, and he also feed back the ghosts
althought this play style is very apm intensive and i'm not sure how applicable it is to lower level players
If feedback were AOE (lol) then it wud be a balanced microbattle.
Thats exactly one of the points, no matter how good you are at micro, you cant say that you could feedback a ghost before he can emp u, come on the EMP its AOE he can target the ground and it wud take ur entire army (or so) energy/shileds... i mean and it cloaks too so...
You also claim that one shoud spread the army hide the temps etc etc etc... Come on thats like insane high AMP compared to what the terran need to do, shoot an emp on the middle of ur army, he cud hide more easily his ghost come on. and he has more than 1 ghost then he can emp ur separate groups... (This is very circustancial but still makes my point)
With that been said
Yeah Colossus compositions would help a lot and you guys are right, i can see now that WhiteRA made a lot of micro mistakes that could have turned around the table.
Also i agree that the terrans needs to be very good and that BratOK its VERY good, but i still think that the AMP needed for the Protoss to handle that kind of situation its very hard to manage, you cant disagree on that.
Also for the ones complaining on the video of Husky... offcourse its a silly demonstrations but its a very general view of the situation, overall the Marauder its way better than any gateway unit, shure you can forcefield them (unless ur sentries get emp'ed ) or a lot of stuff but yeah well...
There's the entire day9 daily #135 about this strategy where Sean analyzes four Brat_OK's replay. It's worth watching it.
Someone pointed out that Colossi is a game-ending unit versus this kind of build but I would rather disagree. At the time the first Colossus is out you should have already at least one Starport which means you can switch it on a reactor and start pumping out vikings. To me (http://sc2ranks.com/eu/627538/fadeh just started playing sc2 with almost no previous experience on rts) looks like HT are more effective even if they are kinda hard to micro properly.
EPT
) or a lot of stuff but yeah well...
