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Markwerf (and mkfk1) are dead right. Looking at what a unit counters or what counters it is useless alone. You need to think about what the rest of your army and the rest of the opponents army look in comparison to each other when the unit in question thrown in. The conclusions they came to are also very true.
In PvT HT seems a lot less fragile than colossus and can perform a much larger variety of assistance (due to EMP and Feedback).
In TvZ The rest of your composition keep Colossus safe allow their damage to really shine.
In PvP I have not really seen HT be used effectively consistently. I guess there is the odd game where they would be useful, but that is only end-game when you already have Immortals or Colossus. In the PvP matchup I would say that the early tech decision making is Colossus vs Immortal not Colossus vs HT, with HT thrown in later if you think it can give you an edge... but PvP rarely gets to that stage.
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There are other factors too, such as easy access to mobile detection and drops through the robo bay (obs/warp prism). Also if you make a lot of templar you absolutely need to have a bigtime mineral dump. Mass zealots are great but most units that crush zealots are not overly vulnerable to storm so you may end up with a flimsy unit composition if your opponent reacts quickly.
Its probably not ideal but I generally save templar tech to when I have 6 geysers mining so I have enough leftover gas to pump out a more versatile meat army for my templar.
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op, number crunching in this game is useless here. There are so, so many variables to consider which one to go for.
As a basic guide
collosus are better against mass tier 1-1.5 units. But get weak end game due to vulnerability to higher tech units like corrupters, tanks and vikings. even when you are damage soaking with hallucinated collosus they are still weak.
Collosus are more all in and for timing attacks
HT's last in end game as they dont become so fragile to mass air units. they dont have the range of collosus though, and storms can be dodged
and HTs are never used in pvp because protoss ground units are too strong to take any real damage from storm.
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TBH, I think psi storm is weak (if only slightly). Unlike in Broodwar where Medics were bite sized and mixed in with the Marines, Medivacs can tank a psi storm hit and that's if you can even hit them with their superior mobility. It's pretty easy to move troops out of a storm, and just heal up your Marines. And the Marauders can tank a full one and still not be all that bad.
It fares better against Zerg, but now they have Roaches that can tank it.
Overall, I feel like Colossus are the far superior unit. Equal range, faster movement, and it does more than 80 damage over 4 seconds. And it's just far easier to use and easier to get to. I just feel like people consistently make the mistake though of trying to use them without the range upgrade. Until they get that, they are kind of rubbish imo.
That said, there are simply tactical reasons why you'd use Templar over Colossus. The ability to hit air and not be hit by air is one. Warp-ins, faster build time in general, and the easy ability to mass out of Gateways are another. Feedback is also an amazing spell, once you've justified building your Templar, but I'd never get Templar just for it.
So I don't view Templar as a core unit, it's more a tactical one. You might want to make a build where you can quickly spike out a number of Templar and you can't do that with Colossus. You might be fearing an air army and Colossus wouldn't help you with that. But if you're just looking to smash face, then you're looking for the Colossus.
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i've been going for 4 colossi timing rush against zerg, but my 520point zerg friend's been killing me with his relatively fast ultra build. after discussing with him about the right way to deal with ultralisks, i came up with having 2 colossi with +2 attack to deal with hydralisks(which means get a twilight too),, and then later switch to HT, archon, zealot, immortal( best if you have the initial 2 colossi saved up). robo is very limiting if you can't kill the zerg with it as immortal + tier1 gateway units won't be enough to deal with the ultralisks, but archons only take 15 damage(with no upgrade), while doing quite a lot of damage to ultralisks and other units themselfs. and you'll always have the storm option incase he goes for mass tier 1~2 or broodlord tech
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never thought of Archon to help counter ultras, thank you since they are better than immo vs most other zerg units too.
man i have a lot of game to lose ahead of me testing out new things
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archons are not a good way to counter ultra's.. immortals are.
Archons are not really efficient against any unit as they weren't intended too, their sole purpose is to give templars without energy a use really. Unlike BW it's not efficient to make templar simply with the intent of making archons.
Partially because of ultra's robo tech is good against protoss because without immortals you can't counter ultra's really, which in turn is in favor of colossi.
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United States10774 Posts
I prefer Colossus in PvZ and Storm in PvT. But sometimes it feels like I'm forced to tech Colossus to survive a early-mid game push from Terran.
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Templar are definitely the best choice against Terran, vikings are just too easy to get. Furthermore Templar tech means you can also get DT tech which is insanely good against terran until they have ravens. Against Zerg though both can work. I find Templar vastly underused, probably just because theyre much more micro intensive and collossi are much simpler to use.
Against Zerg: Collossus:
+ much better against lings once it can one-shot
+slightly better against roaches
+ has high hp
+cliff walk can allow it to escape from a bad position
+decent against ultras
- corruptors can counter
-long build time
-produced from robo bay
High Temps:
+better against hydras (debatable but their slow speed means they cant avoid it)
+better against mutas (any decent player will dodge, but theyll still take some damage and free hits on them while they fly around)
+good against corruptors and broodlords (broodlords cant dodge storm; corruptors have mana)
+feedback infestors, overseers, queens
+more minerals for zealots (solves ling problem)
+produced from warpgates (instant build time anywhere on map and already have 5+ in place)
+easy to harass with amulet
-terrible against ultras
-low hp
-if caught in bad position none are getting out alive
-more micro intensive
As a zerg i hate seeing templar much more than collosi.
As protoss i generally prefer Templar especially if i opened phoenixes
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first, i do not agree with the cost analysis.
Twilight has to be built in the Colossus build as well for Charge and higher level weapon/armor upgrades.
a Robo also has to be built in a templar build for observers and the odd immortal in case of ultras/ massed tanks.
second, a single colossus is hardly a force that will change the battle against a stimmed terran bio ball, in order for them to be realy effective, you need multiple, 3 or more is realy the point where Colosi behind the army start to make difference.
one or two templars behind your army are however gamechangers, especialy if they had some time to gain energy for storm and feedback.
templars do howver suffer against terrans and there ghosts, caught out of possition or in a transfer, a single EMP can lose you the game outright.
in my opinion, Colossus are the safer way to play, Templars are a "high risk high reward" style of play.
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hardly a game i don't (try to) get both.
say colossi are great vs zerg ground right. well HT rape mutaswarms.
say colossi are great vs terran bio ball or as siege unit. well HT feedback the crap out of medivacs banshees battlecruisers and thors all units which would be pretty scary without feedback. and yes the storm also helps in battles.
colossi are also a key unit in PvP whereas there is no real use for feedback in this mu storms might help now and then.
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Personally, I used to go colossi, but now I just LOVE HTs and almost never go colossi. Only time I get colossi is in PvP.
Terran and Zerg have to easy counters against colossi. Vikings and corrupters (to a lesser extent mutas, as well) just roflstomp colossi like none other. HTs aren't hard countered by anything except EMP, but that's very easy to deal with with good positioning and spreading. Additionally, as ultras are becoming more popular, I find that templar are invaluable in PvZ as archons are extremely helpful in combating ultras. Immortals work, but the amount of investment to get sufficient immortals to combat ultras is much higher as you'll need to add several robos as opposed to just operating off of all the warpgates you already have.
Nowadays, I only ever get the robo for obs and warp prism in a non-PvP. You can even fend off early roach rushes with templar tech. Archons do a surprisingly good job at helping fend off early roaches the way immortals do.
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what should be my army composition as zerg when I face a lot of zealots with ht some stalkers and immortals in the late game?
I feel like roach, ling broodlord would be okay with a ling flank from behind.
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Colossi are easier to make since you always need a robotics for observers anyway, whereas you only make a TC if you plan on using several chargelots/blink stalkers.
That said both units are very different. The Colossi is pretty much a-1 to victory while making sure to not run into AA (vikings, turrets) whereas HTs have energy to manage, are vulnerable to ghosts, and can't damage buildings.
HTs also put you close enough to the DTs tech should you need a quick DT strike.
Just saying that there's more than the costs/time to account for. Templars are trickier to keep alive while avoiding to storm your own stuff, while colossi+range can play it safe as long as your opponent isn't massing AA. Templars actually fare decently against mass air, but Colossi+range can snipe buildings.
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They both have their strengths (and weaknesses).
Templars are countered pretty hard by and pre-ignitor hellions, and to a lesser extent, ghosts. A good terran will grab a handful of hellions after he sees a templar archives and start doing drive-bys on your templar (this is very easy since hellions aren't restricted by gas, losing them doesn't really hurt the Terran economy since they are hemorrhaging minerals). This is a double whammy to the protoss, since zealots complement Templars due to gas restrictions, and those hellions will roast the zealots as well. This forces protoss to get a lot more stalkers than they would have, effectively reducing the templar quantity. Ghosts kind of counter templar, but it becomes a control issue at this point. Against a bio-ball that is mixing in blue flame hellions, protoss needs to be very weary otherwise his AoE DPS will suddenly disappear.
Personally, I like starting off with templar with one expansion (this helps with early aggression with medivacs and ravens), and then grabbing a few colossi after getting my 3rd up. This really divides the Terran in terms of what he needs to counter your units. The protoss player gets TWO tier 3 units that have lots of DPS and versatility. The colossus makes hellion harass pretty ineffective, so their option to deal with the templar is pretty limited.
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I think with Colossi you come out with a death ball army, whereas HT offer a very dynamic defense.
Say terran does a 3 medivac drop to snipe an expo. If you have Colossi out of position, he will be done by the time you get there and there will be little or no damaged suffered by him.
If you tech'ed HT, you can warp in like 3 ht and drop some storms. If he tries to flee, you can feed back the medevacs.
Colossi are much more beneficial in a frontal assault, they can siege and pick. They also can tank a little. They give high ground sight.
Personally I prefer HT. I feel like I can defend anything with HT. If I'm losing a fight, storms make for a safe retreat. I can easily defend drops. With colossi, it's too easy to get exploited.
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Most annoying thing about storm is that zealots charge right in it. Which is a pity because chargelot/templar build has good synergy tech-wise.
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I havent played alot of zerg lately but my last build literally let him expand whenever he wanted. I did VR opener then expanded while I harassed because it looked like he was just going to defend with a bunch of queens. I kept the queens moving around and forged to secure my expo. My late game army consisted of speedlots and collossus with like 4 or 5 sentries mixed in, the rest was all phoenix and void ray.... I was shocked when I completely mollywhopped his army full of hydras, corruptors and mutas. I was shocked the air did so well, I think forcefields + guardian shields had to be the MVP though. This guy was low diamond and I feel he missed a window to mass up and push, but he, like many zergs, felt content just spamming drones and expanding.
I got the idea from a thread on here recently discussing how this player would go mass void ray with the speed upgrade and mass collossus. Thats it... pretty much those two units. He did all this off 2 bases, usually securing a 3rd once he starts getting his army out. It really got me thinking that protoss air units arent THAT bad despite what everyone says. With a ton of VRs and a ton of collossuss it seems to force them into an impossible decision, who to kill first...Either collossuss wreck them or the void rays do when they charge. Its so gas heavy, but at least I think the unit mix is worthy of discussion for late game situations.
TLDR: protoss air isnt that bad and collossuss mixes well with air against mass units because it forces a difficult decision. VR speed gives a shitload of mobility and adding just 1 carrier to your fleet creates even more targeting micro nightmares for the opponent.
Regarding HT's: i think the opposite of many here. I think the threat of mutas is too real to rely on psi storm. Mutas are too fast to get a good psi storm off, archons might be okay but then you lose to hydra. No matter what its gonna be gas heavy.
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Air units don't magically make colossi useless, in a big fight even if you do kill all the colossi the bulk of your ground forces might already be dead. You can pull your hydra/MM back and try for snipes, but protoss can micro their anti-air too.
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Versus Zerg, I still feel that colossi are best, they do better damage overall, and there isn't as much of a hard counter. Versus Terran I go for storm every time now. You can hit a medium sized ball with one storm, and the units themselves are relatively weak. Not only that, but storm is quite good versus air if your opponent begins to make battlecruisers or banshees. Versus Protoss I feel that colossus is necessary if your opponent is making a ground army, but if they started with void rays or have invested in stargate units, I make high templar.
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EPT
