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ZvP Fast Expand versus 2gate zealots

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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RavenNevermore
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada66 Posts
July 11 2010 18:59 GMT
#1
Is this possible? Since beta came back, protoss, who I used to be quite strong against as a player have been dominating me with constant 2gates. Part of it is that I'm rusty, part of it is cuz i'm awful (thank you day[9]). I began practicing with my protoss friend attempting to get a fast expand build versus a 2 gate zealot push, and I've come to the personal conclusion that it's impossible if the opponent has acceptable micro.

Is this the general conclusion? Is it impossible for a zerg to fast expand against a 2gate zealot build? Are there any fast expanding builds that work against this?
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
July 11 2010 19:01 GMT
#2
Hm I don't think its possible to FE against a 2 gate. Its also very weird in almost all my zvp games they always go 2 gate opening I have no idea why this is all of a sudden popular :S.
When I think of something else, something will go here
DennyR
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany379 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-11 19:06:16
July 11 2010 19:02 GMT
#3
why would you fastexpand instead of getting fast roaches?

scout him early, if he doesnt have gas yet skip zerglings and start producing roaches.
with the first roach out u can expand and build up pressure and maybe even win, because roaches own zealots hard, even without speedupgrade.
Phisk
Profile Joined June 2010
166 Posts
July 11 2010 19:16 GMT
#4
The 2 gate has only become worse in the last patch as zealots now takes +5 seconds to build (which adds up pretty fast, and its a pretty small timing window), so you shouldn't have more trouble than before. How do you FE? Hatch before pool? 14 Pool 15 hatch? Or the Sheth builds with a hatch at around ~20 after your zerglings and queen has popped out and speed is in progress?

Generally its pretty risky to exp before you got any lings in production. Dont be afraid to cancel a hatch if you scout a 2 gate opening, its much better than just loosing it to zealot preassure.

It would help a lot if you gave us some replays so we can see what you are doing wrong, as there is more than one way to FE as zerg.
prochobo
Profile Joined May 2010
United States232 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-11 19:20:46
July 11 2010 19:19 GMT
#5
Yes, you can in long rush distance maps/cross positions. If you can micro zerglings, your Queen and maybe a few drones if things get really hectic, you're fine. If you scout 2 gate, you have until he gets 3 zealots before he pushes (as a rule of thumb). When your expo hatch pops, make zerglings from there as well as your main. Move then Queen to your expo ASAP and micro your zerglings. Get a spine crawler up ASAP and block your ramp with a Queen or drones to prevent a run by. This type of defense has held off many a 2 gate from me. Roaches are icing on the cake.

I usually don't commit too hard and might make 5-6 zealots for aggression then back off. If you can hold off the 2 gate, you are ahead of the Toss player since you have your expo and that benefit snowballs as time goes on. 2 gates aren't as easy as every one makes them out to be, especially with the build time increase.
Senorcuidado
Profile Joined May 2010
United States700 Posts
July 11 2010 19:27 GMT
#6
You might be overthinking it, just push him back with roaches (they pop at the perfect time), counter attack and expand. The counter might even win the game, it at least lets you expand very comfortably. Tech to lair, do work, make profit

your expansion will be delayed but you won't be behind. iirc the Protoss will be behind unless he built the gateways at his natural's choke, put a cannon down and got a quick nexus. That's the smartest way to 2 gate I've seen. If he doesn't get the cannon your roaches will do a lot of damage and if holds his main ramp he'll be super late on his expo. You're not in a bad spot either way, you have map control and you should drone hard. That's the way I understand the dynamic in a pvz 2-gate game as it seems to play out.

Come to think of it, they just increased the zealot build time, didn't they? Does this hurt the 2-gate rush significantly?
RavenNevermore
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada66 Posts
July 11 2010 19:52 GMT
#7
You guys are misunderstanding me. I'm not asking for tips on my build, and i'm not asking if fast expanding IS the best option. I'm just asking if there IS a fast expand build that works against it.
DennyR
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany379 Posts
July 11 2010 19:58 GMT
#8
you shouldnt be fastexpanding just for the sake of it. there is no reason to desperately try to fastexpand when 3-4 roaches of one base give you such an extreme advantage over a 2gating protoss.
Tookie22
Profile Joined May 2010
United States187 Posts
July 11 2010 19:58 GMT
#9
scout at 10 throw down ure 14 pool if u see 2 gate add a gas if not expo
"Its a race between software designers to create more idiot proof software and the universe to create bigger idiots. So far the universe is winning"
Usyless
Profile Joined June 2010
54 Posts
July 11 2010 20:04 GMT
#10
Since the patch I haven't had much trouble 14 hatch 13 pooling against 2 gates but it might be different with proxy or on very close positions, and I may have just been running into poor players.
Templar.
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada133 Posts
July 11 2010 20:17 GMT
#11
On July 12 2010 04:52 RavenNevermore wrote:
You guys are misunderstanding me. I'm not asking for tips on my build, and i'm not asking if fast expanding IS the best option. I'm just asking if there IS a fast expand build that works against it.


the 14 hatch 13 pool build is suspose to be a direct counter to 2 gate pressure, but I assume this works only on 4 player maps such as LT and meta.
memcpy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
July 11 2010 20:26 GMT
#12
On small maps like Steppes or Blistering Sands where they block the nat with 2 gate I've been doing a build someone suggested a while back where you do. It's so safe that on maps like Metal and Kulas I'll go straight for the gold and I don't care if they scout it.
double extract trick
12 hatch
11 pool
double extract trick
overlord
queen
2 drones
queen
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-11 21:28:23
July 11 2010 21:27 GMT
#13
I haven't seen a good FE build that beats 2 gate. You need roaches, and waiting until after starting your expansion is too late.

But it may be possible to do, I just have never done it, nor have I seen anyone do it very well.

edit: Desert Oasis may be the only exception, but even that is iffy, and I'd have to see it to believe it (I exclude DO so I never play on it).
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
DrTossRulezz
Profile Joined April 2010
United States45 Posts
July 11 2010 21:54 GMT
#14
I almost go 9 pylon 10 gateway at my choke, then I chrono boost out 3 zealots and attack with that. Then while they're dealing with the zealots I add a forge and 1-2 cannons, then I expand, or before the cannons depending on how much damage I do.
Ruthless
Profile Joined August 2008
United States492 Posts
July 11 2010 21:59 GMT
#15
On July 12 2010 03:59 RavenNevermore wrote:
Is this possible? Since beta came back, protoss, who I used to be quite strong against as a player have been dominating me with constant 2gates. Part of it is that I'm rusty, part of it is cuz i'm awful (thank you day[9]). I began practicing with my protoss friend attempting to get a fast expand build versus a 2 gate zealot push, and I've come to the personal conclusion that it's impossible if the opponent has acceptable micro.

Is this the general conclusion? Is it impossible for a zerg to fast expand against a 2gate zealot build? Are there any fast expanding builds that work against this?


I did a lot of testing. the 14 pool 14 hatch then spam lings can still work if its far spots but otherwise i think you need some sort of one base gas opening for speed or roaches before placing your expo.
sikyon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1045 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-11 22:02:15
July 11 2010 22:01 GMT
#16
I usually cancel my expo when I scout the 2 gate, as late as possible to delay him while I get 2 crawlers up. After that it's roaches if he keeps applying pressure, or ling run bys if he doesn't.

I do play random though so I scout slightly later.
EssayReader
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)127 Posts
July 12 2010 01:21 GMT
#17
14 Pool 15 Gas
Early Roaches
Expand

It's not as fast, but because they focus so much on a harassment, you will still have an economic advantage in the late mid-game and late game.

Just get 3 Queens, 1 for your main, 1 for your ramp/creep tumors/energy stacker and 1 for your expansion. The reason for this is that most of your Protoss players are going to be only using minerals for Zealots and Gateways. Gas can be saved for Void Rays or Phoenixes (if they want) and with the Zealot's increased building time, Probes have time to mine a few more minerals that they want.
DuncanIdaho
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States465 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-12 01:53:17
July 12 2010 01:50 GMT
#18
I'm a Zerg player, and against toss I generally FE with lings, spine crawlers, and then roaches. Essentially, this is my build:
14 pool (send out initial olord to scout nearest main spawn and hotkey the hatchery and olord, make 9drones, then olord, 10th drone, scout while waiting on olord, build 4 more drones, drop the spawning pool in a place to increase running distance for enemy melee, such as zealots, to your drones)
15 hatch(make drones till you're at 15/18, and right about that time and meanwhile, as you're approaching 300min have a drone arriving at your natural expo spot)

After this, I tend to make an olord, queen, and 6 lings, not necessarily in that order, butyou get the point. I tend to make a spine crawler in my main, and as soon as it's done, such that it will arrive at the natural expo as soon as it spreads creep, I'm having it arrive to plant itself. Generally, the earliest you should expect something, you'll have lings, a queen, and a spine crawler to take them on, and so far I've done well enough. Meanwhile, I tend to make an extractor and some drones to mine it as well as a roach warren, and maybe another spine crawler or two, depending upon my mood. Beyond that, I lair up and tech to hydralisks if they keep sending zealots, since they micro well against lots. Unless of course, toss stalker rushes me, then it just feels like a meat grinder of who can make the most roaches vs stalkers, meanwhile teching to spire for muta harass, and later blords/corrupters. Hopefully that helps, but dont give up on the fast expansion, that's what zerg is made for...

edit: I also hear speedlings do well against lots, and if they make chargelots the hydralisks lose their micro advantage...
The spice must flow... Grammar lesson: "than" is used for quantity comparisons, "then" is used for chronological statements. The next forum user who says, "I'd do such and such, THAN I'd do such and such else," is gonna make me cry...
st3roids
Profile Joined June 2010
Greece538 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-12 02:43:43
July 12 2010 02:36 GMT
#19
check tlo vs white ra in metalopolis.

Ra trys 2 gate but after the patch it seems zealot are too late to counter mass zerglings.

result ra is been forced to play 1 base whereas tlo has 3 .


heres the link btw


Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
July 12 2010 02:46 GMT
#20
It's definitely possible to fast expand against 2gate. The only possible exception is close positions on LT/Metalopolis or Steppes of War.

This is the build I use:
14 pool
15 hatch
14 queen/overlord
make pure lings
when your queen finishes, cast a spawn larva and then send it to your expo while building another queen in your main
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