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9 rax vs 12 rax: economy - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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k!llua
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia895 Posts
April 21 2010 15:43 GMT
#21
what's the economic benefits of an early 9 rax -> OC -> fast expand?

might be a diff build alternative to the 1 rax FE.
my hair is a wookie, your argument is invalid
HeyheyLBJ
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden160 Posts
April 21 2010 15:46 GMT
#22
On April 22 2010 00:21 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 23:59 HeyheyLBJ wrote:
On April 21 2010 22:16 Cheerio wrote:
On April 21 2010 21:58 HeyheyLBJ wrote:
On April 21 2010 21:46 Cheerio wrote:
On April 21 2010 21:32 HeyheyLBJ wrote:
The ONLY way to get an early economical advantage is to delay the OC, not build it earlier.

It can't be true. The OC economically is a big scv, if you constantly recast it. It has build time of 35 (twice of scv) and mines at speed 3minerals/second. Scvs mine at speed 0,75minerals per second. 4 times mining speed for 2 times build time and 3 times cost. OC gives eco advantage over scv production, it's a hard fact.


Then you should ask yourself why not EVERYONE goes 6 rax instead, since there are no drawbacks.

There is a huge difference between cutting to get smthing faster and building something instead of something to get it faster. As soon as OC is available it should be made right away, there are no drawbacks. But cutting scvs to get barracks faster and thus OC faster is a drawback. Obvious decision is to have non-stop production on your CC. But obvious is not always best. It would be obvious to build non-stop probes with chronoboost for perfect economy yet a lot of players cut probes for 10 gate in pvz and chronoboost zealots. And terrans even have short term eco benefit for cutting. 9 rax is heavily overlooked in tvz imo.


You're building rax instead of depot, which will cut back on your SCV production. Are you saying you can have the same amount of SCV's 9-raxing as you can 10-depoting?

I don't really get what you're saying at all. We're discussing it from an econommical standpoint here and you go talking about chronoboosting zealots...

Yes, economically 12 rax is better. Can we go on now to see the big picture?

P.S. gone testing reaper rush trade-off.


Ok, you have to forgive me for I didn't understand you realized that 12 rax was economically better since you spent the OP and everyone of your replies to me saying it wasn't...

On the other topic: I'd imagine reaper-rushing easily gets the advantage over a non-reaper rushing playing. 9rax is not THAT far behind already thanks to OC, and if you can get a few SCV kills from the early reaper, it's gooood.
smore
Profile Joined February 2010
United States156 Posts
April 21 2010 16:02 GMT
#23
Well-written post...my question is does this affect when you should get OC on your expo?

should you have a certain amount of scvs mining when your maynard before its best to OC...or am i just overthinking the benefit of delaying the OC in exchange for producing scvs.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 16:32:19
April 21 2010 16:30 GMT
#24
At the time you want to be taking your gas in 90% of builds you'll have fewer scvs, which means when you start mining gas it makes a more considerable hit to your economy. If you were opening with a late gas opening (1 rax FE TvP) then perhaps 9 rax might actually be a stronger opening, or at least comparable. Any opening involving a standard gas timing will be stronger with standard 10 depot 12 rax.

I do think rax first openings are quite strong in most circumstances because you have faster access to tech. If you want the best economy though, 10 depot 12 rax 13 gas 15 OC is the best build.

edit: misread a little.

Also, gas timing should be 13 not 14 on depot first.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Lythis
Profile Joined January 2010
Germany87 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 16:38:32
April 21 2010 16:37 GMT
#25
10 depot 12 rax in mirror is way too risky in mirror matches imo(prox rines or reaper) and straight up matches without early reaper against P are not fun either^^.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 16:48:21
April 21 2010 16:39 GMT
#26
Updated the OP:
-----------------------------9rax/12rax/9rax-reaper
16th worker was done: 3:59/3:32/4:04
OC finished: 2:33/3:14/2:34
1st gas finished: 2:40/2:34/1:58
Tech lab: 3:23/3:11/2:47
Reaper out: -/3:52/3:27

So basicly you get reaper out in 25 seconds faster for 32 seconds (only, compare with standard 9 rax build) delay in scv production = 1,88 scvs.

But this is a very solid "rush": after the CO is done you can build reapers, scvs and supplies non-stop, actually you may be able to add 2nd rax shortly after. Anyone knows faster variations, but no faster than 9 rax?
SichuanPanda
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1542 Posts
April 21 2010 16:44 GMT
#27
For me its as simple as this. If I'm opening Reaper harass I will 9 rax, if I am opening with a 2 or 3 rax build I will go 12 rax (with a 10 Depot), I usually have enough to lay down rax 2 at 14. One other advantage to a much earlier OC is being able to use a scan earlier (never skip your first mule though).
i-bonjwa
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 16:54:09
April 21 2010 16:53 GMT
#28
On April 22 2010 01:30 Floophead_III wrote:
Also, gas timing should be 13 not 14 on depot first.

On 13 I have to cut scv for some seconds. For the sake of the research (comparison with the best economy possible) I moved it to 14. On the other hand when going reapers it should of course be done at 13, as probably in most other cases.
FortuneSyn
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1826 Posts
April 21 2010 16:57 GMT
#29
nice work man! For useful data, it would be interesting to see what the econ difference is between a 10/12/ opening is vs 9rax-reaper. Given the data you have already collected, it seems the econ hit comes from an earlier gas, not from the earlier rax itself.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 17:23:39
April 21 2010 17:22 GMT
#30
On April 22 2010 01:57 FortuneSyn wrote:
nice work man! For useful data, it would be interesting to see what the econ difference is between a 10/12/ opening is vs 9rax-reaper. Given the data you have already collected, it seems the econ hit comes from an earlier gas, not from the earlier rax itself.

Actually the early gas is a good addition to 9-rax. Coz you start your OC on 11 you can't produce anything and don't need supply depot in near future. So the minerals are better spent on refinary. This is why the cut in scvs is negligble compared to usual 9 rax. And since reapers are gas heavy you don't need minerals that much. It's a well balanced BO, thanks for brining it up. And the eco difference would be hard to estimate by the sheer minerals or gas numbers, it's better be estimated by how much scv's you have cut: 1,88.
ExecutioN
Profile Joined March 2010
Latvia52 Posts
April 21 2010 17:34 GMT
#31
If you are playing versus a zerg player you can always get rushed.. So, the better you get your rax up, the better.. In other games - very playable! Thanks! Great Post!
If I lack belief in God, why would he belive in me?
LuDwig-
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Italy1143 Posts
April 21 2010 17:34 GMT
#32
I have just tried the 1 rax bunker at 9 and it seems really good..its usefull to get fast expansion..the real problem is if zerg decides to just ignore your bunker and run in your base
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120015&currentpage=98<--Search the HotBid's Post
Wintermute
Profile Joined March 2010
United States427 Posts
April 21 2010 17:41 GMT
#33
This matches what my experience has been. 9 rax should not be used for a supposed economic advantage, but it is still a viable option if you're trying to quickly tech up or something where you might sit at 11 supply for an extended period of time in order to have resources for other things. Since the OC can give you resources without requiring any supply, it is an option.

It's also nice, even if you're going for a more normal progression, to be able to get a few marines out quickly to help hold off a 6-7 pool or a reaper rush.
Don't let me say this, but you're no worse than me; it's crazy.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
April 21 2010 17:46 GMT
#34
On April 22 2010 02:34 LuDwig- wrote:
I have just tried the 1 rax bunker at 9 and it seems really good..its usefull to get fast expansion..the real problem is if zerg decides to just ignore your bunker and run in your base

If you want 1 rax bunker FE really much try building barracks, supply and bunker at the choke in the way he can't easily run by. But generally 9 rax should be used for offence early on or at least to pretend you are doing so. An interesting idea is to build raxes at the choke and go reapers. Squise as much of it as possible and then add supply or 2 and a bunker at the choke and you should be fine for FE defence.
GreggSauce
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States566 Posts
April 21 2010 18:21 GMT
#35
the fastest reaper build is
9 barracks
9 refinary
scv
10 supply depot
scvs to gas
scv
tech lab
scv/oc
reaper

sometimes you can get an oc sooner possibly due to better peon splitting but in general your barracks will finish at around 120 minerals which imo makes getting an scv a better option then waiting for oc and tech lab

if you can get a second gas up its possible to effectively mass reapers+ barrakcs, i use this strat quite often, and people haaate it. multiple proxy rax with speed reapers makes everyone angry

also if you 9rax reaper rush off of just one barracks you can expand, bunker up and transition safely to marauders or whatever you like, they wont push out of their base if they know youre still fielding reapers esp if they see 3 of them.

my reaper build should be about 12 seconds faster then the one you described.
Must not sleep, must warn others
Mnijykmirl
Profile Joined February 2010
United States299 Posts
April 21 2010 18:34 GMT
#36
I've done a lot of 10 rax. Difference between 9 rax and 10 rax has to be minimal, you just shift the timing when you get one SCV out by like 10 seconds- same total idle CC time. 12 rax is stronger eco but it means there's like 2 less marines if I do constant production out of the rax from a 10 rax. 10 rax is also safer because those first marines come out so much sooner, and you can start a bunker much sooner(ie. proxy gate)

I make up for the eco loss as much as I can by not sacrificing the early SCV if at all possible. There are less things I have to critically scout for so early with a 10 rax than a 12 rax, I can delay scouting some, or just find their base on a 4 player map, then get out and pressure/scout with marines later instead.

10 rax is a nice way to bunker pressure any slow pooling or ling-skipping FE zerg. Still at plat level, I can win a large number of games with early pressure instead of just straight teching- many players skip or skimp severely on their T1 and leave a lot of idle time on their early gateways or barracks.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 20:43:10
April 21 2010 20:41 GMT
#37
Updated the OP:

The core timings remained the same:
-----------------------------9rax/12rax/9rax-reaper(solid)/9rax-reaper(fast)
16th worker was done: 3:59/3:32/4:04/4:23
OC finished: 2:33/3:14/2:34/3:49
1st gas finished: 2:40/2:34/1:58/1:41
Tech lab: 3:23/3:11/2:47/2:31
Reaper out: -/3:52/3:27/3:14

Fast build: By the time you get your reaper in production (which is 13 seconds faster) you will have a choice: have idle CC and accumulate minerals for OC or build scvs and delay OC. If you delay OC it will be late by 1:15 secs compared to solid build... delay in workers is 51 seconds = 3.00 scvs. If you delay scvs you will be down by 4.2 scvs and OC will be late by 1:01. So basicly you have to kill 3 workers in 12 seconds or solid build is better.
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