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Well, I have a problem as Zerg against terran. early game I can sneak in a drone and look around.
But after the wallin and the killing of said drone I have no intel.
I cant sneak in more units cause of wallin and overlords get shot down by marines
This leeds me to act on no intel and therefore make fatal misstakes.
Example 1: I see nothing and thus builds an standard army to counter MM I instead get totaly owned by banshees against which I had no counter to 
then one game later, I this time build hydras and spore crawler vs a terran. But this time he just builds an standard MMM army and crush me cause I lack roaches.
So my question is, how do I scout terran as zerg?
the only remotly viable seems to get OL speed and then sucide into the base?
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I'm in this position too..would love to see what most are doing or if it's just playing blind until a sacrificed overlord.
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you run up his ramp with a few zerglings at lik 30 supply or smth and then you have to guess from the information they are gathering (how many marines? which addons? barracks producing or not?). Saccing an overlord isnt as useful as against toss, since good Ts will have supply depots or smth at the perimeter of their base and with a few marines theyll shoot down ur ovi before it can see the interesting stuff most of the time.
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I'm in the same spot as you two. What I find most effective is playing blindly until lair which I'll go with my initial 100 gas before ling speed. Just because it is the only way for me to get in effective scouting. With the lair you can either get speed on lords or make an overseer + a changeling.
This will of course make defending against a MMM timing push a bit harder, but definitely not undoable. Just remember to get up some banelings alongside those roaches and lings!
I also try to float my overlord around his choke to see what his first addon is. Problem here is that on some maps this can be difficult. Especially if he gets out 2-3 marines before the addon. But in the cases I'm able to scout him like this I continue my play like this:
If he doesn't go any addon for a while after the rax is done he's obviously teching. If he goes tech lab first I delay roaches and go early ling speed + banelings. If he goes reactor first I get up roaches. Within any of these builds I always get in an expo. By opening 14pool -> queen once pools finished then take it from there 
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Use an overseer(later just an ovie with speed). Why is this somehow a worse option than losing the game, so you decide to mass hydras blindly, when you can scout before the hydra den is even up?
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I play both terran and zerg and feel like it's not particularly hard to find out what's going. Ovies can fly in and out from the sides / back very easily. Changelings dropped in the fog of war do wonders too.
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On March 26 2010 23:54 Vexx wrote:
I play both terran and zerg and feel like it's not particularly hard to find out what's going. Ovies can fly in and out from the sides / back very easily. Changelings dropped in the fog of war do wonders too.
Yeah by the time I get lair w/ a speed upgrade/overseer its usually end up with nicely placed turrets from the paranoid terran (mutas).
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overseer is the way I get my info every game.
I'll go overseer the moment lair finishes before getting hydra or spire to see which I need.
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Send an overlord to die. It's 140 minerals cheaper than a scan economy wise.
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On March 27 2010 01:40 Wr3k wrote:
Send an overlord to die. It's 140 minerals cheaper than a scan economy wise.
and it's cheaper than 4 lings
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On March 27 2010 01:40 Wr3k wrote:
Send an overlord to die. It's 140 minerals cheaper than a scan economy wise.
Good terrans can kill a slow overlord before it sees anything.
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Don't forget changlings! Love those littel guys.
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This is what I do when I know I can't get threw his defenses. I use:
1. Changelings to get on the ramp (when necessary) or drop at the edge of his base when possible.
2. Suicide overlords. That's when my eco is amazing I just rally point like 8 overlords to his base (assuming you have lair and the speed upgrade) http://www.xfire.com/video/2581fc/
3. Just suicide speedlings to his ramp when ever possible.
Those are the only 3 ways I seen work. Usually if terran smells a muta push they'll get too friendly with their turrets -.-
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I usually get speedlings in every ZvT i play, so i'd just run them up the ramp, see whats there, and run back down.
Course this doesn't always guarantee you see what you want to see, but it could help you guess?
I pretty much always make one spore crawler nowadays just in case of banshees so i have time to respond, and it's not really a big problem cause i can use the evo chamber for upgrades too
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what I see a lot of "good" zergs do is sacrifice (maybe) an overlord. An overlord (with speed) can scout a Terrans base pretty easily.
Worst case:
you lose the 100minerals and food (build an overlord before scouting so theres no stoppage)
Best case:
You scout the Terran and come out alive
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On March 27 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote:
what I see a lot of "good" zergs do is sacrifice (maybe) an overlord. An overlord (with speed) can scout a Terrans base pretty easily.
Worst case:
you lose the 100minerals and food (build an overlord before scouting so theres no stoppage)
Best case:
You scout the Terran and come out alive
yeah but you can't get overlord speed until lair. By then, it's too late to see what terran opened with, leaving you to guess whether to expand, get lair, get banelings, or get roaches.
Unless you do a super-fast lair in order to get overlord speed? I don't think fast-teching to lair every game ZvT is a good idea.
I mean right now I just continually scout his ramp with speedlings and react from there, but good terrans can hide their opening in their base, put 1 or 2 scout depots around their base to spot incoming slow overlords, and totally deny scouting until they move out. It's still somewhat of a guessing game. If you want to try and see what opening terran has, your only option is to sac a slow overlord and hope that it sees something. If not, you just wasted 100 minerals and/or got supply blocked for nothing.
Zerg relies on early-game scouting more than any other race, so that they can decide when to drone up and when to make units, so I think the OP's question is an important one.
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People, you don't see the problem here. There is a timing window between where T has marines out and before a zerg usually gets his lair where there is no info to be gained. In this time the T can branch out to several different approaches. Like MMM push. MMM drop, Hellion drop, and banshees.
Balsius, I believe that going lair with first 100 gas will give you a setback if he goes MMM push, but it shouldn't be impossible to defend that. If you get an overseer fast after the lair you should be able to scout most of the ways he can come at you in time. I'd rather have less resources due to an early lair/overseer than getting 3 banshees in my base pre-hydras/mutas
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Send a drone scout and keep it hidden from view. If you send one out before your pool, you should be able to get it in. Unless, of course, you're talking about later in the game, when you decide your first tech building (Warren, Nest, Lair, etc.).
I don't really get how early-game scouting with Protoss is much different from Zerg, at least against Terran. A Robotics Facility comes too late to be of much scouting use in terms of early-game, and it's just as important for Protoss as it is with Zerg (i.e. if they build a fast factory w/ Reactor, you're screwed if you go for Zealots/Templar, if they go Marauders, you need to scout it to tech to Immortals, etc.)
You could always work a Baneling Nest into your build and crack the wall-in with about 5 Banelings; Banelings are pretty effective against both Marines and Hellions, along with not sucking as much as they used to against Marauders.
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On March 27 2010 03:24 Zeke50100 wrote:
Send a drone scout and keep it hidden from view. If you send one out before your pool, you should be able to get it in. Unless, of course, you're talking about later in the game, when you decide your first tech building (Warren, Nest, Lair, etc.).
The problem here is that terran can just kill your drone scout with his first marine or two, and now he has his wall up, putting you back at square zero and completely in the dark about what opening terran is doing.
Making things worse is the fact that one geyser is pretty much standard for all terran builds, so seeing a refinery going up with your drone scout means nothing, whereas in SC1 seeing a fast refinery meant some kind of tech build.
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Only a really low level player wouldn't notice a drone scout hidden in their base on most maps.
It would be nice if maybe overseer could be upgraded earlier, but not have detection. Or overlord speed. Whichever.
Often I can get a lot of information by sending zerglings up a ramp and see what they die to and any buildings close to the front. However, I think as people get better more players will keep these important things back until it is necessary to reveal them.
I feel on some maps I am in a huge disadvantage due to not being able to scout quick enough. Lost temple for example I could be tank dropped on my expansion ledge, banshee rushed, MMM, MM, hellions, vikings, or maybe the terran will just fast expo themselves. So many things that I don't think I can cover all the possibilities without making huge economic sacrifices.
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With the threat of early baneling busts, every decent T should now be walling in his front with 3 large buildings (e.g. rax/rax/rax, rax/eng/rax, rax/rax/fac). It should be pretty obvious what he's doing if you see 3 rax, same idea if you see a fac. If he walls in with supply depots, simply bust down his front and win with speedlings.
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Calgary25980 Posts
It's the exact same as SC1 - Send a ling and infer information from their infantry count. I don't see how this is suddenly a problem in SC2 when it's a very similar situation.
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You can't bust a terran front with speedlings. Banelings and speedlings yes, but it is a very all in build. And an all in build is not what is being discussed in this thread.
And it may not be different then sc1. But I feel like there are a lot more options that the terran could make in his tech in sc2 that is hard to counter in SC2.
In SC1 Mutas were a solid choice against almost everything. I feel like they are a much weaker choice in SC2.
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On March 27 2010 04:07 Chill wrote:
It's the exact same as SC1 - Send a ling and infer information from their infantry count. I don't see how this is suddenly a problem in SC2 when it's a very similar situation.
There are many different viable 1base openings in TvZ, and they each require a different reaction from Z.
Terran wallin -> make 2 marines -> one of many different openings, how can you reliably scout them?
Hellions: terran makes factory behind wallin, pumps 2-6 hellions and hides them behind the wallin, you can't see it by running a zergling up the ramp
M&M: terran leaves 2 marines at wallin, and makes 2 barracks behind wallin and pumps mass infantry while only letting you see the 2 marines that are at the wallin, you can't see the additional barracks by running a zergling up the ramp
Fast banshee: terran makes factory -> 1 or 2 starports behind wallin, you can't see it by running a zergling up the ramp
Fast expand: terran makes CC behind the wallin, you can't see it by running a zergling up the ramp
Each one of these requires a different reaction from Z, there's not one generic opening that is safe against all of them.
edit: depending on the map sending a slow overlord at the right timing can defintely let you scout, but maps like blistering sands, desert oasis, steppes, lost temple, metalopolis all have large, ramped mains that make it easy to deny scouting & hide your opening.
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Just to note, Terrans rely heavily on their mules early game to even stay economically competitive. As a result you shouldn't restrict based on resources.
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Here are my tips on this situation.
1) let that first drone stay in his base as long as possible. Sometimes you will see 2 barracks going up, if no gas you know he is massing marines. (mass roaches to counter)
2) if you see 1 gas being built and 1 barracks keep running lings up the ramp trying to see what he has. (Smart terrans won't let you see all their units but more often then not you do see a lot)
3) If you see marauders chances are you don't have to worrry about helions or banshees for a bit. (Counter with speedlings roaches mostly speedlings.
4)If you see 2 gasses going up you know he is teching, get roaches to defend against helions, and then hyrda fast cause you better believe banshees are coming next.
5) If you really have no clue suicidie an overlord. Look at it as 100 mineral scout. However plan on that overlord dying and make extra overlord before u suicide it.
6) Upgrade overlord speed as soon as you hit tier 2.
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Good tips. I probably should take more note of how fast they get a second gas.
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How about sending ovi very close to the edge of the screen? In several maps cristals are near a clif. So you go slowly(lol) and reach the base.Ok ovi will die but you can see.
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On March 27 2010 04:07 Bosu wrote:
You can't bust a terran front with speedlings. Banelings and speedlings yes, but it is a very all in build. And an all in build is not what is being discussed in this thread.
And it may not be different then sc1. But I feel like there are a lot more options that the terran could make in his tech in sc2 that is hard to counter in SC2.
In SC1 Mutas were a solid choice against almost everything. I feel like they are a much weaker choice in SC2.
Because this all-in build exists, T should be walling in with large structures is what I'm saying, which grants the Z much more information. So if he walls in with supply depots, I say go ahead and punish him for it with a baneling/speedling break.
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On March 27 2010 04:17 Monk wrote:
Here are my tips on this situation.
1) let that first drone stay in his base as long as possible. Sometimes you will see 2 barracks going up, if no gas you know he is massing marines. (mass roaches to counter)
2) if you see 1 gas being built and 1 barracks keep running lings up the ramp trying to see what he has. (Smart terrans won't let you see all their units but more often then not you do see a lot)
3) If you see marauders chances are you don't have to worrry about helions or banshees for a bit. (Counter with speedlings roaches mostly speedlings.
4)If you see 2 gasses going up you know he is teching, get roaches to defend against helions, and then hyrda fast cause you better believe banshees are coming next.
5) If you really have no clue suicidie an overlord. Look at it as 100 mineral scout. However plan on that overlord dying and make extra overlord before u suicide it.
6) Upgrade overlord speed as soon as you hit tier 2.
QFT.
This is the guide for ZvT scouting.
When you reach lair you should have NO problems scouting, changeling and overlords should be enough.
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On a lot of maps you can position the overlord to see when he builds refineries. Use that info to guess what kind of tech he's going. It's the most info you're going to get once he walls his choke besides using a ling to peak at his army at his choke.
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Heres me scouting in ZvT:
-Early overlord scout for proxies then send ovie near his base in a hidden/protected position.
-First couple zerglings check his wall. If he has no wall in, or only has 2-3 marines assume hellions until you see otherwise and throw down roach den, build a few roaches for defense.
-Early lair pretty much every game followed by quick overlord speed while still checking him out with zerglings
-I usually sacrifice one overlord if I don't know what exactly what they are doing. If you have overlord speed its joke easy to scout their base, and worse case you lose 100 minerals (which is actually cheaper than scanning as terran). The timing of this sacraficial ovie should be aimed at checking for a starport/banshees. If they quick tech to banshees they wont have enough AA to down your ovie before it sees anything unless its a map where they can easily hide and protect buildings. I usually don't even get overseers until I need detection, because overlords with speed are dirt cheap and scout just fine.
Basically, infer what you can from what you see on his choke, and if you are in the dark, send some ovies to die. It's better to be behind 100 minerals than clueless about what hes building.
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It isn't always possible to reach lair in time to scout.
During my placement matches, right about the time I started morphing an overseer to scout, the terran moved out with like 10 marauders and 2 or 3 hellions. I had a lot of speedlings because I knew that there would be marauders shortly and I made more, but the hellions hid behind the marauders and roasted them all within seconds. I don't think he took more than a couple marauder losses.
I would have had to produce a lot more troops and not even bother saturating my second hatch at all to beat that. An overlord sac in this case would have worked, but I had no way to know that. 90% of the time marines will waste my slow overlord before I get a view of any buildings, so I decided to wait for overseer, but that was too late.
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On March 27 2010 05:08 Wr3k wrote:
Heres me scouting in ZvT:
-First couple zerglings check his wall. If he has no wall in, or only has 2-3 marines assume hellions until you see otherwise and throw down roach den, build a few roaches for defense.
I see a problem here, 2-3 marines at his ramp means nothing, you can't just assume he is making hellions, he could be doing mass marauders, M&M w/stim, fast banshee, or FE + bunker.
On March 27 2010 05:08 Wr3k wrote:
-Early lair pretty much every game followed by quick overlord speed while still checking him out with zerglings
I see another problem here, going fast lair every game is not good, you will be behind against certain builds, particularly M&M w/ fast stim or FE + bunker build.
On March 27 2010 05:08 Wr3k wrote:
-I usually sacrifice one overlord if I don't know what exactly what they are doing. If you have overlord speed its joke easy to scout their base, and worse case you lose 100 minerals (which is actually cheaper than scanning as terran). The timing of this sacraficial ovie should be aimed at checking for a starport/banshees. If they quick tech to banshees they wont have enough AA to down your ovie before it sees anything unless its a map where they can easily hide and protect buildings. I usually don't even get overseers until I need detection, because overlords with speed are dirt cheap and scout just fine.
Basically, infer what you can from what you see on his choke, and if you are in the dark, send some ovies to die. It's better to be behind 100 minerals than clueless about what hes building.
The problem isn't with scouting after you get lair, the problem is scouting terran's opening and responding appropriately.
I agree that the best way to scout is probably to sac a slow ovie in the first 5 minutes of the game, timed so that you can see if terran is building barracks, factory, starport, or CC behind his wallin.
On March 27 2010 04:17 Monk wrote:
Here are my tips on this situation.
1) let that first drone stay in his base as long as possible. Sometimes you will see 2 barracks going up, if no gas you know he is massing marines. (mass roaches to counter)
2) if you see 1 gas being built and 1 barracks keep running lings up the ramp trying to see what he has. (Smart terrans won't let you see all their units but more often then not you do see a lot)
3) If you see marauders chances are you don't have to worrry about helions or banshees for a bit. (Counter with speedlings roaches mostly speedlings.
4)If you see 2 gasses going up you know he is teching, get roaches to defend against helions, and then hyrda fast cause you better believe banshees are coming next.
5) If you really have no clue suicidie an overlord. Look at it as 100 mineral scout. However plan on that overlord dying and make extra overlord before u suicide it.
6) Upgrade overlord speed as soon as you hit tier 2.
These are really good tips, thanks.
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EPT
