Goals: - Shorter map by air and ground (after third has been acquired) - backdoor path into the natural; backdoor useable to acquire a short way into the gold - Highground third that you rally through; strong defensive stance for Protoss or Mech - open middle with a strong watchtower; strong offensive stance for Zerg or Bio - 4th and 5th open new attacks paths; map is splittable, but not as easily done as on maps like overgrowth - lots of sight blockers for units to hide to create interesting dynamics - a few oldschool dropable cliffs in the middle
I like the overall feel of the map but I really think it could use a handful of changes. I'll add a picture of a sick Paint Job I did on the map with the changes I believe would help it, and you can see how you feel about it.
First off, the backdoor shakuras hallway = no no no no. It will be the main and only attack path in the game because terran and protoss have no reason to attack through any other path, not only is it choked off the best but it's also the fastest way and has good sieging/collosus. I believe the map would flow much better if you just took out that whole bottom section.
This map feels like it could make great use of the "hab stat" style gold bases. Put them on low ground with the ramp farther up, this goes in conjunction with the high ground changes to the middle that I also mention. You can now place the gold minerals up against the wall towards the middle of the map so that it's "easy" to take but hard to hold. With the middle highground you can now put the watchtower on the low ground so it gives a ton of vision of the high ground. This will do 2 things, make the low ground more useful because you can grab the watchtower, but also makes the high ground not as strong because if the enemy is holding the low ground they can see your army move around the middle of the map. You could also now put a bunch of LoSB on that middle high ground section to further motivate players to go on the low ground and fight over the watchtower.
Lastly, I think the corner bases are a little far spread out and I feel you could squeeze them both into the middle of the map. I might also be possible to shrink the mains or squeeze the mains in a bit so you can shrink the overall size of the map even more a tiny bit.
I know Protoss decals are cool, but honestly I don't think you need them here and if anything they kind of look out of place. Texturing could use a little work as well. I know you want to submit this to MoTM but keep tweaking up the aesthetics to make it look as nice as possible!
I don't mean to sound disrespectful but could you elaborate on how this map won't play out like habitation station? I'm usually O.K. with a map being a '2.0' version of another map, but not when one is in the current map pool.
On June 05 2014 09:50 Unsane wrote: I don't mean to sound disrespectful but could you elaborate on how this map won't play out like habitation station? I'm usually O.K. with a map being a '2.0' version of another map, but not when one is in the current map pool.
What does it matter what maps are in the map pool when 99% of fan made maps don't end up there?
First off, the backdoor shakuras hallway = no no no no. It will be the main and only attack path in the game because terran and protoss have no reason to attack through any other path, not only is it choked off the best but it's also the fastest way and has good sieging/collosus. I believe the map would flow much better if you just took out that whole bottom section.
Normally true, but 4 rocks is a lot of delay. You can't timing attack through there, and it should be possible to defend (at a later time) at that ramp in your nat. So... I don't think it is immediately as problematic as shakuras for example. It also has a connection to middle so you can meet attacks that way from mid if you're out of position. For what it's worth.
Otherwise I think those ideas for changes are cool, but they do quite change up the map. Food for thought at least. One thing is that the 3rd base is quite far, and open. There should probably be an easier option.
On June 05 2014 08:59 SidianTheBard wrote: I like the overall feel of the map but I really think it could use a handful of changes. I'll add a picture of a sick Paint Job I did on the map with the changes I believe would help it, and you can see how you feel about it.
First off, the backdoor shakuras hallway = no no no no. It will be the main and only attack path in the game because terran and protoss have no reason to attack through any other path, not only is it choked off the best but it's also the fastest way and has good sieging/collosus. I believe the map would flow much better if you just took out that whole bottom section.
This map feels like it could make great use of the "hab stat" style gold bases. Put them on low ground with the ramp farther up, this goes in conjunction with the high ground changes to the middle that I also mention. You can now place the gold minerals up against the wall towards the middle of the map so that it's "easy" to take but hard to hold. With the middle highground you can now put the watchtower on the low ground so it gives a ton of vision of the high ground. This will do 2 things, make the low ground more useful because you can grab the watchtower, but also makes the high ground not as strong because if the enemy is holding the low ground they can see your army move around the middle of the map. You could also now put a bunch of LoSB on that middle high ground section to further motivate players to go on the low ground and fight over the watchtower.
Lastly, I think the corner bases are a little far spread out and I feel you could squeeze them both into the middle of the map. I might also be possible to shrink the mains or squeeze the mains in a bit so you can shrink the overall size of the map even more a tiny bit.
I know Protoss decals are cool, but honestly I don't think you need them here and if anything they kind of look out of place. Texturing could use a little work as well. I know you want to submit this to MoTM but keep tweaking up the aesthetics to make it look as nice as possible!
Good luck bud!
There are quite a lot of differences between the shakuras hallway and this one though. Obviously the two extra sets of rocks, that as EatThePath also said, should delay any form of timing attack and make it near impossible to use it early at all. Also as ETP said, killing the middle rocks also opens up a path from the middle to hit into the hallway, so a Zerg that controls the middle can hit into the hallway from the middle and the natural (once the path has been opened) and the choke point of the hallway into the natural is designed in a way that you get a big concave as the defender. But there is also another huge difference between this and shakuras and that is that you are not hitting the back of the mainbase here, creating an awkward new line of defense. You still attack into the natural area, the point where any concentration of early defense is located anyways.
I have had versions with different attack paths towards the natural, but this setup is the first one that I feel confident about. Without it, the map may just be way to turtly, since you could always position all your army around the third and shut down any ground aggression until late into the game.
Some really cool input about the gold bases and I will see what I can do about the 4th and 5th.
Not sure if I want to redesign the middle like you wrote. It definately sounds like some nice ideas, but changes the nature/feel of the map a lot and I think the open middle as it stands with the vision blockers and ledges around the watchtower could make for some nice gameplay anways.
On June 05 2014 09:50 Unsane wrote: I don't mean to sound disrespectful but could you elaborate on how this map won't play out like habitation station? I'm usually O.K. with a map being a '2.0' version of another map, but not when one is in the current map pool.
Just because a map uses the same vertical symmetry as an other map doesn't mean that they will produce the same type of games.
- added the gold bases, but differently from how you suggested - the third is now closer - the upper areas are now a little closer as well - texture changes - no more Protoss decals - bunch of changes to the main base
- still quite some retexturing and doodading to do
On a first look, it now actually looks somewhat similar to Habitation Station. However, the third base setup is completely different, the gold base might be takeable by floating. It is probably a bad normal third base, yet not impossible. And the middle is of course quite different from Habitation station
- added the gold bases, but differently from how you suggested - the third is now closer - the upper areas are now a little closer as well - texture changes - no more Protoss decals - bunch of changes to the main base
- still quite some retexturing and doodading to do
On a first look, it now actually looks somewhat similar to Habitation Station. However, the third base setup is completely different, the gold base might be takeable by floating. It is probably a bad normal third base, yet not impossible. And the middle is of course quite different from Habitation station
A lot of the changes you did I like quite a bit. Looking at the map there are just a few more suggestions I'm going to make. Also, if you're getting sick of my suggestions just tell me to stfu, I feel like I'm saying too much but /shrug. I like the map and I think it has really good potential!
I think you should make the main base a little less "square" looking, make some parts stick out farther, etc etc.
I think the 3rd base you should rotate the minerals to how I put them, it's a little less safe, but you're still up a ramp and it promotes harass more imo.
I think what would be neat to try out (unsure if this would actually work well in the map) is what I did with the 4th. Make the ramp closer to the 3rd, and either have a 2nd ramp rocked off or don't inclue a second ramp. This promotes harass even more since you'll be able to move your ground army between the bases but it'll be tougher for the enemy to do that, plus he could then trap his army in the 4th if he went down there.
If you did that idea I had for the 4th you could keep the 5th where it's at. If you don't change the 4th at all I think you need to move the 5th a little bit. Otherwise those 2 bases just seem so bunched up and a little boring imo. Also, change up the mineral formation imo.
The pink dots, I was thinking it could be pretty neat to have a ton of LoSB. You then either go through all the LoSB and can sneak around those with small armies, or you take that choked off high ground (which I absolutely love btw)
The gold bases, I don't really like at all at that placement because I believe it just favors whoever takes it first for the most of the time. With hab stat, both players can take the gold at the same time since the ground distance is farther yet air distance/harass distance is short. With the way you have the golds now, they are so close ground to ground that it'll be almost impossible for them both to be taken around the same time. Possibly make it a blue base so terran "could" aggressively expand? I think something needs to change with that base though as it's my least favorite part of the map.
Lastly! (sick of me yet?) I think it'd be neat to have little patches of high ground next to the watchtower either with or without ramps. Something really cool that we don't see much anymore were the high ground pods in Shakuras in the middle that'd we'd sometimes see. I think you could do something really cool with high ground pods and the base placement there. You'd have to try some things out with that though because I'm unsure what would work out best.
Oh...one more thing! Even though I'm still not a fan of the backdoor, I suppose I can live with it and give it a shot even though I still dislike the idea.
Sorry about the wall of text! <3
Texturing looks a lot better though. Much more simple, easier to read and still looks nice. Thank you for taking out all the protoss decals haha.
What I did: I gave the 4th the 2nd ramp you were talking about - I wasn't quite happy with it either, because it seemed a little far away. Now It should be much more reachable for the defender, without changing how the path works, great solution!
Played around with the middle pods a little more: - they are now in a position so that siege tanks can ever so barely not reach the CC/Nexus/hatchery; but they can give cover for other units - the changed pods + some small changes to the entrance to the gold lengthen the path between the golds a little --> I'd like to keep the golds there (though normal bases might be OK as well). They seem fun, a little risky - just how golds should be imo -, and may make floats possible (which I find an amusing strategy). And the path from the main to the gold is pretty long, so even if you position yourself there, it's pretty hard to maneuver around against drops, air, or counters that come through the upper side of the map.
The low ground in the north is now stacked with LoS blockers around that crater (everything pathable).
A few changes to mineral lines.
Changed the lighting a bit.
To do: - Still looking for ways to stack the highground above the third with doodads or something, to make it clear it isn't pathable. - The area around the 5th still needs some texture/doodad work - general texturing/doodading - maybe slightly increase the little lakes size
- more testing whether everything that shouldn't be, is as nonblinkable/siegeable as intented
I can't be the only one who thinks that the overview of the map looks like a uterus. That said I don't really understand the point of the back entrance to the natural. To me it just seems like it will never be used as intended.
OP Updated with the newest version and its pictures. The biggest change are the removal of the middle set of rocks and removal of the bottom path. The backdoor stays, but obviously changes a lot of its role, to be a more "standard" form of backdoor, that can also be used to open up a way into the gold expansion. Also rearranged the upper 4th area another time a little bit.
I think this is going to be the last big change to the map before MotM, unless someone comes up with something really great or problematic. Gonna work on the airspaces a little bit more, to look better I guess, but that's just minor stuff.
I would suggest making the middle of the map, the area around the XNG tower, less open somehow. The area as is just looks like a nightmare for protoss to engage, especially against zerg.
On June 22 2014 00:27 ChopTheHassan wrote: I would suggest making the middle of the map, the area around the XNG tower, less open somehow. The area as is just looks like a nightmare for protoss to engage, especially against zerg.
Protoss can press against the walls on the bottom all the way over, similar to how you would walk through Frost always having one side covered naturally (it's more or less the shortest attack distance if you walk like that). Furthermore, even more open maps like Alterzim or Entombed Valley were usually not broken in ZvP because of these kind of open areas.
Also, a lot of other areas (e.g. the whole third setup not creating a second big entrance, only the backdoor) are quite favorable for Protoss imo, and the whole idea behind an open middle was to balance this out a little bit, and allowing Zerg to play more Ultralisk based and not forcing them too much into Swarm Hosts as other 2p maps with closer paths usually do.
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