[M] (2) Djinn's Delight

Fatam

1986 Posts

January 20 2013 13:09 GMT

Djinn's Delight
by Fatam
version 1.2 [HOTS]

Playable Bounds: 114x152
Rush Distance (nat to nat): 115
Number of bases: 10 8m2g, 2 4m1g

FFE:
+ Show Spoiler +

Aesthetics:
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A view of the 2 natural backdoors: rocks and neutral fleet beacons. Fleet beacons have 500 hp + 500 shields. If someone tries to kill one of the fleet beacons but you stop them, the shields will regenerate, which is nice.

Secondary ramp in the main, with half expansion.

Xel'Naga Healing Shrine, heals 10 hp per second. Unlike XNTs, a unit has to be right on top of it to be healed.. therefore only so many units can occupy it at once (~9 marines or other 1 square units would be as much as you could fit).

+500 gas canister behind some rocks.

Destructible rock tower, kill it (only 500 hp) and you can quickly narrow the choke to your 10/4 o'clock base. The resulting rocks are normal (2000 hp).

The more forward "third" complete with bunker spot.

I tried to go off the rails/balls deep/etc. for my first HOTS map. I did everything I wanted to do then after some playthroughs realized I needed to scale it back some (the mains originally had a backdoor too! Among other things.. but it was just too much for a player to keep an eye on).

Anyway, I'll try to explain the features of the map that aren't standard:

Neutral fleet beacon backdoor
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A Fleet Beacon has 500 hp + 500 shields. If your opponent tries to kill it but you stop him, the shields regen, which is nice. Why would an opponent ever try to attack that way instead of via the rocks? Well, it has half the hp and 2 less armor, so it goes down faster. More importantly though, killing one of your own fleet beacons give you a back, protected way to expand to the corner base that doesn't open up a huge hole in your defenses.

The +500 gas canisters and how they relate to the Protoss expansion pattern
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A protoss that doesn't want to expand to the corner base as his 3rd can take the 4m1g expo in the main and try to get his gas canister to compensate for the lack of gas. But he does have to venture out of his base and kill one of the rocks to get it. So there's a nice risk/reward thing going on there. I'm not sure if 500 is the perfect number honestly, but 1000 seemed too high so it's 500 for now. This is very much aimed at being an anti-turtle feature.

p.s. - the only way to get the gas is to kill the rocks and move a unit near the gas. It's impossible to blink / warp-in / unload to bypass the rocks because the thorns are impassable.

Secondary ramp in the main
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I did this before on my 2v2 map jam submission and I wanted to try it here. Basically it's a small, aggressive map so I want people to have a secondary oh-shit barrier. You can simcity the secondary ramp (even though it's a 2FF) to give you a place to make a last stand in case your lower main is compromised. I made it a 2 FF ramp instead of 1 so that sentry drops wouldn't be completely OP (may even have to make it 3 FF in light of that.. we'll see). This setup is also really, really nice against blink stalkers for the obvious reasons.

Xel'Naga Healing Shrine
+ Show Spoiler +

Most of you are probably aware of these by now, but I'll explain. The XHS heals 10 hp per second. Unlike XNTs, a unit has to be right on top of it to get the effect.. therefore only so many units can occupy it at once (~9 small units can fit). I put them here because they're out of the way.. if you want to get healing you have to go away from the important locations of the map, which is a little risky. It's also perfect for blink stalkers to blink down to after being in the main.. my other map feature nerfed blink stalkers so maybe this balances that a bit.

Sumadin

Denmark588 Posts

January 20 2013 15:39 GMT

The Gas can seems risky. What if a Zerg player "steals" it? It is well known that Zerg will have superior map control in the early game, and if they get a 1000 gas bonus(both of the cans) then that gives them a serrios advantage. A Burrowed roach with borrowmovement could hide next to the rocks and move in once the protoss takes down the rocks, if it goes to the later game.

But yea really, can't comment much on balance on such a map that goes so much all out really. We have to see how it plays. I can't say if it would give any better play than the normal HOTS ladder maps.

Drake Merrwin

Canada130 Posts

January 20 2013 17:13 GMT

I don't hold the same concern that Sumadin does but I do feel that the gas + healing area seem kind of arbitrary and unnecessarily risky balance wise.

While I don't agree with this new map trend, that Kespa Arkanoid inspired, where they mess with mechanics, even for these new maps this one goes a little far. Arkanoid just put a twist on island maps, this is just seems like a random, "fuck it lets see what happens", thing. From the fleet bacons to the gas pods, it doesn't seem to have a theme.

To sum up and make my critic clear: functionally, the map is risky. Game play, seems random with no theme.
IDK what to suggest. It depends on what direction you want the map to go. If you want it the game play to be based mainly on the gimmicks then I think you should focus on working out a clear theme. If you want it based on the terrain design then I think it you are already off to a great start with the layout but it's incomplete.

Good luck! You're on to something. <3

SiskosGoatee

Albania1482 Posts

January 20 2013 17:39 GMT

The FFE wall at the front there basically means you have to put a bunker or anything really far forward to defend against stuff meaning you can almost nbever pull scvs in time.

Edit: I'm also not sure what this gas cannister has to do with Protoss in particular, any race can grab it and I feel that in ZvX Z will probably be able to ascertain both and in PvT P will be able to ascertain both. Z just has all early map control in ZvT and ZvP and P has it in PvT.

Something pretty cool would be if each can only be collected by one player but the one you have to collect is basically dangerously close to the opponent.

Meerel

Germany713 Posts

January 20 2013 17:47 GMT

awesome map, i like it alot

Gfire

United States1699 Posts

January 20 2013 18:20 GMT

This map seems great. Of course it's rather experimental so we'll have to see, but it seems very cool.

I might be worried just a bit about lack of building space in the main.

Sumadin

Denmark588 Posts

January 20 2013 22:52 GMT

On January 21 2013 02:13 Drake Merrwin wrote:
I don't hold the same concern that Sumadin does but I do feel that the gas + healing area seem kind of arbitrary and unnecessarily risky balance wise.

While I don't agree with this new map trend, that Kespa Arkanoid inspired, where they mess with mechanics, even for these new maps this one goes a little far. Arkanoid just put a twist on island maps, this is just seems like a random, "fuck it lets see what happens", thing. From the fleet bacons to the gas pods, it doesn't seem to have a theme.

To sum up and make my critic clear: functionally, the map is risky. Game play, seems random with no theme.
IDK what to suggest. It depends on what direction you want the map to go. If you want it the game play to be based mainly on the gimmicks then I think you should focus on working out a clear theme. If you want it based on the terrain design then I think it you are already off to a great start with the layout but it's incomplete.

Good luck! You're on to something. <3

I am not a fan of maps that messes with Mechanics either. Escpicially timed stuff really. Arkanoid for example at 18 min where the map suddenly opens up completely. I am not a fan of it and i know why. It is completely independant of player interaction. Regardless of what has occured until that at that time, the map drops everything and becomes completely open.

Also somehow that map has managed to produce worse PvP games than Taldarim... good job.

SiskosGoatee

Albania1482 Posts

January 20 2013 22:54 GMT

On January 21 2013 07:52 Sumadin wrote:
Also somehow that map has managed to produce worse PvP games than Taldarim... good job.

Pfah, can you not see the genius of making a map where people have no way to scout each other whatsoever? Surely KeSPA innovates again, bringing BW like games to SC2, free of silly things like build order losses eh...

EatThePath

United States3943 Posts

January 21 2013 00:26 GMT

That gas is no kind of reward for taking the small expansion, but more like a small consolation prize if you make units that don't do anything. I don't agree that they're favored for ZvX. If you let zerg waste time banging down rocks for 90 seconds without punishing them, they deserved to get it.

This map has so many things on it, I say why not. The most interesting thing about the map is the healing pad placement, which could make some unique new situations, both tactically and in terms of timings and transitions. I never thought of it, but do only ground units benefit from the healing pads?

I'd like the map to be 4-8 squares taller, and the ramp inward from the gas canisters to be a 3ramp. Just to make it a little more likely for the 4 bases in the middle to be used simultaneously, and to make that highground slightly less entrenched.

Fatam

1986 Posts

January 21 2013 01:08 GMT

#10

Hey guys. I guess it's no surprise that some people like it and some people hate it, lol. It's a little weird, and sometimes people just want a normal-ish map, which is understandable. (I do think there's a metric shitton of really great normal maps being made, so I don't know that I need to add to that stockpile.)

- Yes, air units can be healed by the healing shrines/pads (I'm not really sure which name is the correct name). so you're right, it's useful placement for air harass/pokes too.

- the gas canisters weren't JUST placed for Protoss in PvZ, I just used that as a talking point because when you talk about 3rds and gas the controversy is always PvZ. A previous version of the map had a XNT on that highground above the gas canister/forward third.. if I added it back you could see if someone is trying to steal your gas canister and probably stop them in time. Plus with 2 backdoors it would help with protection. Just a thought.

- the building room in the main is actually super adequate, it just looks smaller than it is w/ the division between the 2 levels

- the scv pull-time thing is a pretty decent point, although I feel like there have been popular maps before with that big of a distance between nat choke and nat mineral line. Not that it's a shining example of map greatness but I think Antiga Shipyard has a similar distance. (I went ahead and measured it, from the closest mineral to the ramp on antiga is 19, and on my map it's 20). I agree that this might be a small issue, so I'll probably tweak it to reduce that # a bit.

I think in general the map encourages a lot of map awareness and activity. Someone who just sits back behind a wall can be exploited. Keep in mind also that it's HOTS, so it's a little easier for Protoss/Terran to move out of their base against Zerg vs. how it is in WOL.

EatThePath

United States3943 Posts

January 21 2013 01:19 GMT

#11

Well you can still see the rocks at the gas canister from the cliff above right? So you can just put a scouting unit there if you're worried about a "gas steal". Also, that makes a pretty interesting minigame where you might let someone attack your rocks for a while and then swoop in a chase them away, then kill the rocks which are now low HP and take the gas.

llIH

Norway2143 Posts

January 21 2013 02:03 GMT

#12

I actually like this map
Map awareness is key to this map it seems.
Air units preferable as openers too I think!

Fatam

1986 Posts

January 22 2013 04:10 GMT

#13

I uploaded a new version, let me know what you think of the changes

- I shrunk the natural (it was needlessly large before), reducing the mineral to choke distance to 14-15 from 20.. should be a little kinder on terrans vs. early gateway aggression or baneling busts
- Scooted the corner third closer to the natural to make it more appealing.
- Moved the rocks to each ramp on the "overlook" area. Previously they were in the middle of the highground.
- This necessitated a XNT so that you don't have to build buildings all over the place to watch the various backdoors.. you just need 1 building to watch the fleet beacon backdoor now, and a unit on the XNT.
- The XNT also has vision of your gas canister so there's no chance of it getting stolen without your knowledge. With the new rock configuration, you can also send just a single unit out to grab the gas while you kill the rocks from the safety of the highground. Of course, it's a bit more likely that the other player can ninja your gas if you do it this way, so beware.
- There is still a 4-5 square space just outside the XNT vision range along the edge of the map that you can use to attack the fleet beacon backdoor without being seen.

Possibly more changes to come, feel free to give any other feedback you think would help

Gfire

United States1699 Posts

January 22 2013 05:01 GMT

#14

Seems like a good use of the tower. So now... If you knock down the rock tower, that means the opponent can't sneak around without going in watchtower vision? Not sure if that will ever be significant but it seems interesting.

Fatam

1986 Posts

January 22 2013 06:23 GMT

#15

Yeah that would be correct. That isn't the main purpose of it .. it's to reduce the choke size once you've taken / in preparation of taking the corner base. But it could be used that way :-O

I think rock towers forcing your opponent to walk into XNT vision or just into a dangerous / inconvenient spot (unless they kill the resulting rocks) is something that could be utilized in future maps as a more central feature though, for sure.

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