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lefix
Germany1082 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wR1p3.jpg) TPW Polaris by lefix Map Size: 136x144 Tileset: Iceworld Spawns: 2 Bases: 12 Published: HotS (Beta) - once patch is done  TPW Polaris on sc2melee.net About: Made this map because I wanted to figure out how/if air maps will work in HotS. And because I wanted to try a polar theme with the Kaldir tileset Thoughts and feedback welcome! Screenshots: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F7F4c.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CBHED.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WgVH7.jpg) | ||
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
I think it might be interesting if you made the XNTs so that air units can use them too (it's a super quick change in the data editor) | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
That aside, aesthetics seem a bit rushed. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On December 19 2012 10:03 SiskosGoatee wrote: I'm very sceptical towards Island maps, not so much even for the fact that you have to use air, but for the lack of scouting. Though I guess hallucination and the mothership core provide a HotS answer for protoss. That aside, aesthetics seem a bit rushed. ...lol? | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
IMO take the 2 middle-most bases and tuck them into the cliff closer to the golds. Then add 2 small bridges by each tower that connect to the other middle island. Adding ramps to the high-ground on the golds would also make drop/nydus a stronger option to harassing those bases. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10099 Posts
jk looks nice. first island map which i really like. i think the middle should be more of one big island rather than 2 smaller islands. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
I do like that the middle is very large, making ground army possible option, either blink stalkers, MMM or any ground unit using drops or nydus as Zerg. Using many static defenses might make ground armies not possible in the lategame, but until all of the edges are full of those, ground armies will be a valid choice since in a direct fight they win versus non-tier3 air. While I doubt any island map is balanced, I am sure it would be fun to play or see games on such maps from time to time. Overall the map looks good and even though Protoss might be imbalanced here I think you did an excellent job  | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
Since Island maps are kinda tricky i will try to pinpoint flaws. First what you did right: 2 bases on main islands. That is the correct number, less than that and Zerg is screwed, more and the hole island theme is screwed. Blink distance islands: A neat touch that can certainly help protoss. Protoss aren't that bad in islands but certainly not as good as terran. Problems pretty much everything else: It is 2 player spawn only. This means Terrans can reliably scout using scans. On 4 player island maps scans is too unreliable for initial scouting, and that is one of the ways the advantage of terran can be graducally evened out. Very low distances compareably: With this size it might as well have been a normal map. Terrans are the least mobile in air meaning they want smaller distances. Viking/Raven however is a combination unbeatable in Air-to-Air straight up. But here there is little room to exploit the added mobility for Phoenixes and Mutas. Finally this is really not the type of map to put high yield bases on, as much as i like to see them return to competative Starcraft. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
On December 19 2012 19:40 Sumadin wrote: I could see this map being really broken for terran. It is not at your fault really, island maps in general favors terran. But nothing here is done to try to mitrigate that advantage. Since Island maps are kinda tricky i will try to pinpoint flaws. First what you did right: 2 bases on main islands. That is the correct number, less than that and Zerg is screwed, more and the hole island theme is screwed. Blink distance islands: A neat touch that can certainly help protoss. Protoss aren't that bad in islands but certainly not as good as terran. Problems pretty much everything else: It is 2 player spawn only. This means Terrans can reliably scout using scans. On 4 player island maps scans is too unreliable for initial scouting, and that is one of the ways the advantage of terran can be graducally evened out. Very low distances compareably: With this size it might as well have been a normal map. Terrans are the least mobile in air meaning they want smaller distances. Viking/Raven however is a combination unbeatable in Air-to-Air straight up. But here there is little room to exploit the added mobility for Phoenixes and Mutas. Finally this is really not the type of map to put high yield bases on, as much as i like to see them return to competative Starcraft. I really do not understand some of your points, Terran is not the strongest in HotS, in WoL island maps highly favor Terran I agree, but in HotS, especially without reaper access, Terran is the weaker than Protoss. You can't reliably scan since I think you need to scans to check the whole main + nat, could be even 3 scans (depends on how big is the main, hard to tell), therefore using scans early on is not really worth it. Protoss has msc which can harass and scout, Zerg has overlords for scouting and they have natural defense - queens which are also good later on while Terran has to waste scans, build a barracks and fly it or only scout with air units later. Also Protoss has the fastest form of all in, 4gate prism, which unless scouted can be devastating, especially since Protoss has many other options such as Nexus 1st into tech or blink stalkers which require completely different responses. While Terran has the strongest air army in a straight fight I think ever since HSM lost its splash damage if you can get HT's or infestors under your army Terran can simply not fight the splash damage, even though I might be wrong. | ||
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aiuradun
Denmark115 Posts
it's sad taht it is so hard to get fun games going in sc2 (excluding ums'es/arcade games) | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On December 19 2012 20:12 moskonia wrote: I really do not understand some of your points, Terran is not the strongest in HotS, in WoL island maps highly favor Terran I agree, but in HotS, especially without reaper access, Terran is the weaker than Protoss. You can't reliably scan since I think you need to scans to check the whole main + nat, could be even 3 scans (depends on how big is the main, hard to tell), therefore using scans early on is not really worth it. Protoss has msc which can harass and scout, Zerg has overlords for scouting and they have natural defense - queens which are also good later on while Terran has to waste scans, build a barracks and fly it or only scout with air units later. Also Protoss has the fastest form of all in, 4gate prism, which unless scouted can be devastating, especially since Protoss has many other options such as Nexus 1st into tech or blink stalkers which require completely different responses. While Terran has the strongest air army in a straight fight I think ever since HSM lost its splash damage if you can get HT's or infestors under your army Terran can simply not fight the splash damage, even though I might be wrong. Alot of it comes down to the early game. Terran has by far the easiest time expanding and also has the strongest static anti air. A MSC will not get past a turret. it just doesn't work. The hole exercise is to make sure that the map has dissadvantages for terran so that this doesn't snowball too much. My primary concern only lies in TvZ really. Being forced to get a lair before taking a third is quite the dissadvantage considering todays meta. I think protoss would do alright vs terran on this map. | ||
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On December 19 2012 21:34 Sumadin wrote:My primary concern only lies in TvZ really. Being forced to get a lair before taking a third is quite the dissadvantage considering todays meta. I think protoss would do alright vs terran on this map. It's perfect that Z can't just fucking afk no rush 15 drone to 70 ... what about nydus expand? Also allows defend with a small army against drops. Island maps are different and for sure have to be and don't just have to give you 3 free bases so everyone just maxes till first engagements. I like that Z has to get out of their comfort zone here. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
Anyways, nice use of trying to make a good island map, it looks very pretty. | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
On December 19 2012 20:12 moskonia wrote: I really do not understand some of your points, Terran is not the strongest in HotS, What? What are you even basing this one? No one even has enough games in to make a judgement on the best race in HotS. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
On December 20 2012 01:50 lorestarcraft wrote: What? What are you even basing this one? No one even has enough games in to make a judgement on the best race in HotS. I obviously meant in air, and of course its pretty much theorycraft but tempests can kill everything from range, nothing beats void rays per supply (for all I know) and the phoenix is the fastest unit in the air - allowing for harass while preventing harass from the opponent. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On December 20 2012 03:39 moskonia wrote: I obviously meant in air, and of course its pretty much theorycraft but tempests can kill everything from range, nothing beats void rays per supply (for all I know) and the phoenix is the fastest unit in the air - allowing for harass while preventing harass from the opponent. Vikings still beats Void rays, they are faster and have longer range. Phoenix is technically stronger but when ravens deploy their PDD it turns over quickly. Also Battlecruisers if need be. Tempest is a largely a wild card. It can technically fire from a safe distance, but whatever is providing vision will still be pwned by the vikings. TvP is basicly hard to predict when it comes to Island/Air maps. Which is good that means it is likely to be balanceable. I am just very worried for Zerg. Their Air-to-Air is by far the weakest of all races now. With Infestors rebuffed they might have a chance. But i am worried. | ||
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Exigaet
Canada355 Posts
On December 20 2012 06:07 Sumadin wrote: Vikings still beats Void rays, they are faster and have longer range. Phoenix is technically stronger but when ravens deploy their PDD it turns over quickly. Also Battlecruisers if need be. Tempest is a largely a wild card. It can technically fire from a safe distance, but whatever is providing vision will still be pwned by the vikings. TvP is basicly hard to predict when it comes to Island/Air maps. Which is good that means it is likely to be balanceable. I am just very worried for Zerg. Their Air-to-Air is by far the weakest of all races now. With Infestors rebuffed they might have a chance. But i am worried. You're forgetting about the Oracle's Revelation ability. It gives the Protoss vision of units or buildings affected by the ability at range 9 for 60 seconds, and cannot be removed. So between Revelation and Observers, Protoss should always have the vision to maximize Tempest's 15 range. | ||
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TopRamen
United States96 Posts
EDIT: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XDnWQ.jpg) These ones | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
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Mullet_Ben
United States54 Posts
Unfortunately, as we get to the late game, a clear hierarchy will form in the air armies. Protoss>Terran>Zerg. Between tempests, carriers, void rays, phoenixes, and oracles, Protoss has the most powerful and most diverse air army. It isn't totally clear how useful Ravens will be, however. PDD will counter every anti-air attack from Protoss apart from from void rays, which aren't so good against vikings, while the new Seeker Missile will do pretty great versus carriers and tempests. Meanwhile, Zerg's air army is basically corruptors, which will be completely shut down by PDD and vikings, and aren't even very good against carriers, tempests and battlecruisers, which they are supposed to be good against. ZvP will be a Protoss opening nexus first into stargate, maybe even double stargate, while the Zerg will likely open mutas, only to be shut down by phoenix, or go for 2 base hydra/roachhydra with drops, which shouldn't be too difficult for a 2 base Protoss to deal with assuming they've already scouted with their phoenixes. After holding off any of Zerg's 2 base pressure, the Protoss will get up a robo and a warp prism and move to take a third. Once Protoss manages to secure their third base, they'll start transitioning to carriers and tempests, at which point Zerg can really only make corruptors. At that point, Zerg will be desperately trying to secure as many bases as they can through nydus/drops, which is a significant expense to them, and defending them with a combination of static defense and corruptors from the much more mobile phoenix/void ray/ oracle harassment fleet of the Protoss. Eventually the Protoss will max out their air army on 3/3 upgrades and attack-move around the map for the win. ZvT will feature a zerg either going 2 base muta, or some variety of 2 base nydus all-in. Any mutalisk play will be crippled by the necessity of spending gas on drops or nydus to take a third, meaning it won't be hard at all for a 2 base Terran to deal with. The mutas will mainly exist to prevent Terran from taking a third until they develop a large enough viking/raven fleet. The ravens will be essential, using PDD to zone out mutas allowing the CC to transfer to the third and for turrets and other defense to be constructed. Once Terran has secured their third, they will tech to a giant viking/raven army, at which point Zerg can really only make corruptors. Hydras might be a good option, but I think with a couple of banshees and a ton of PDDs, Terran should have no problem cleaning that up. Infestors would be very useful, but ferrying them around to protect different bases would be extremely difficult, and trying to attack with them would be almost impossible. That's just my theorycrafting from a Zerg player's perspective. Man I wish we had scourge. | ||
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monitor
United States2404 Posts
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/pics/4471.jpg http://www.panschk.de/mappage/Twin Headed Snake IMG.jpg I forgot the names of most of them  Point is, my favorite island maps have some sort of purpose behind them and the expo layout has clear reasoning. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
I was thinking about the below changes to make it a bit more contiguous and zerg friendly (this way the zerg only needs a single nydus to get stuff from his main to the mainland and he more or less would be fine. Infestors would still be viable, etc. Golds would still be an "island" but are harassable via the cliff. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DWtcl.jpg) Maybe also put rocks in 2 of the XNT chokes if you want it to play a bit more macro-y. | ||
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TopRamen
United States96 Posts
On December 20 2012 07:10 moskonia wrote: TopRamen, you can't just say "I think you should do that", you need to provide reasoning, why should they be moved, what will it improve over the current location, etc. Simply stating an idea without any reasoning is really not helpful. Well, I don't know that it would be a good change, I think it could be potentially cool. But I think it'd be cool because it can force players to split up units more. Not by a ton, but some. Idk, it's a pretty general idea, my bad. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On December 20 2012 10:15 TopRamen wrote: Well, I don't know that it would be a good change, I think it could be potentially cool. But I think it'd be cool because it can force players to split up units more. Not by a ton, but some. Idk, it's a pretty general idea, my bad. You can't really have real reasoning at this point other than theorycrafting. I think "it's cool" is as valid a reason as any to change something to an island map at this point, since we have no idea how it will play out. | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
I would at the very least relocate the golds. Gold bases should be in contested areas, and definitely not tucked away safely in a corner. There's absolutely no reason NOT to take that base, no risk/reward. However, the gold provides an influx of minerals, which is not as helpful for air.. Hm... It would be interesting to see gold bases with one vespane on small islands, and regular minerals with rich vespanes on the mid island, giving ground armies a legit reason to contest islands, and air a legit reason to contest the center. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
I would at the very least relocate the golds. Gold bases should be in contested areas That's exactly why gold bases shouldn't be in the middle. The player who is ahead will control the middle, so putting gold bases there puts them even farther ahead. | ||
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AKA.
76 Posts
On December 20 2012 14:33 Fatam wrote: That's exactly why gold bases shouldn't be in the middle. The player who is ahead will control the middle, so putting gold bases there puts them even farther ahead. That's pretty much the point of an objective. Granted, I don't really like gold bases in general, but they should not be free, otherwise whats the point? | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
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