EPTOneGoal: A better SC2 [Project Hub] - Page 16
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
How my redesigned yamato cannon works At every point in the game the terran player can active "yamato cannon". When yamato cannon is activated the terran player has 1 second click on as many of the opposing players units as he is capable of, as long as the units are withint a range of 10 of the BC. After the 1 second has passed, it will take another 1 second for the BC to fire the cannon(s). For each unit the terran player has clicked on, a cannon attack will be fired. Each cannon will deal 100 damage to each target (ignores hardened shield). Meanwhile the targetted units will have a red circle around them, so observers and the opposing player easily can see which units are targetted. The exact stats are obviously debatable, and can be change to accodomate the balance of the game. This ability is easy to learn but the potential is limitless A bad player can just click on 1-2 units But very fast players are capable of dealing an insane amount of damage (maybe they can target 5-7 units). The difficulties of this ability also limits the amount of BC's players will have with their army, as there is very little utility by having more than a couple of BC's; This makes the BC a great support unit. You can still smartcast this unit, but smartcasting is very inefficient, as activating all the BC's yamato cannons at once is a waste of energy as you can get the same outcome by just activating one single yamato cannon. I also believe that great players will position their BC's in a certain way prior to a battle. They will have 1 BC in front and 1 a bit behind, which will optimize the use of yamato cannon. They will begin the battle by activating the yamato cannon of the first BC and 1 second later they will use the yamato cannon of the second BC. How the opponent should be able to remicro against it For the yamato cannon to miss its target, the target has to get a certain amount of yards away or simply be removed from the battlefield. The required distance can only be accomplished by recalling units, blinking them away or picking them up with a dropship. I believe this will create a lot of excitement as spectators, as the outcome of the battle depends on the players micro rather than the amount of units the player has. Why this ability works well with mech in tvp Since the ability ignores hardened shield it is a great "soft-counter" to immortals. If the toss has a couple of immortals and realizes the terran player has got a couple of bc's to counter them, the toss player might just be better off building a couple of warp prisms along with the immortals, so he can save the immortals from the yamato cannon(s). I would appreciate some feedback regarding this idea. | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
How to use a spell efficiently should be skill dependant, but a given skill should give a given outcome. I really think the "click as much as you can" is a good mechanic. And the "you have to remove the unit to save it" is just another seeker missile. Not fan of the idea. I think yamato is fine as it is (prevent the BC to loose too hard against long range anti air), and we are talking about a 2nd spell for the BC. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On January 03 2013 11:20 Nyvis wrote: Totally useless at low skill level, way too powerful at higher level. How to use a spell efficiently should be skill dependant, but a given skill should give a given outcome. I really think the "click as much as you can" is a good mechanic. And the "you have to remove the unit to save it" is just another seeker missile. Not fan of the idea. I think yamato is fine as it is (prevent the BC to loose too hard against long range anti air), and we are talking about a 2nd spell for the BC. 1) No its obviously not. Low level players can still deal damage with it. Secondly the yamato cannon is only a small part of the BC, and thus low level players won't be punished that hard for not using it optimally. But here is how it works well; When a low level player uses the cannon his opponent of similar skill level typically won't be capable of avoiding the ability. Thus the ability is easily balanceable at various skill levels. It takes skill to use it optimally and it takes skill to avoid it optimally (also I forgot to mention target firing as a way to counter it). 2) You say its just another seeker missile ability. This makes little sense, as my suggested ability differentiate it alot more from the HOTS seeker missille. My suggested ability is an inbetweener between an AOE ability and a single target ability. The current HOTS seer missile is basically the same as yamato cannon. 3) You say we are talking about a second ability. The reason the BC actually needs a second ablility is because the current yamato cannon is very boring and the developers felt like they needed the BC to have synergies with mech. I believe my adjusted seeker missile takes both of those concerns into account; Hence having a second ability isn't relevant if my idea is implemented. But just imagine the excitement prior to the battle. Lets say the terran player has 2-3 bc's. You litterraly have no idea what's going to happen before a battle. Its almost like when a terran makes a nuke, which excites as spectators as we have no idea what's goanna happen; The nuke could land and have a huge impact on the game or it could do as little as 0 damage. One potential concern could be that this ability might works to well with biological units as well. I think the bc would work okay'ish with bio, but it won't be as good as with mech. Here is why: 1) It reduces the mobility of the biological units, which are one of the biggest advantages of using them our mech. 2) It takes a lot of APM to use optimally, which could be used to micro the bio units out of storms, emp'ing etc. Mech requires less battle micro than bio. 3) Hardened shield isn't a problem with bio. | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
My comparison with the seeker missile was considering that you have multiple ravens for one BC, and so multiple seekers you send quickly. I don't really like the idea of a damage dealing spell with variable outcome based solely on how fast your click. It would transform the battles with and against it in a one type of micro against one type of micro battle, with the Terran totally unable to micro the rest of his stuff. And forcing all the targeted enemy forces to back off or be loaded seems too powerful : if you have some vikings, the prisms are easily destroyed with the units inside, and forcing half a protoss army to blink back (likely all, then, because you don't want half your army fighting) after engaging and taking tank hits seem to powerful. But the worst is that you didn't speak of zergs. Zergs don't blink. You can pick up in overlords, but they'll be easily destroyed. And of course, you can't pick up your flying units! I think the idea of a very micro intensive ability is good because in mech, you don't really have much micro going on at the moment, but yours would make the battle revolve solely around the BC, even if there is only one or two (likely two to do it again and finish the units). | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
Sorry if I didn't make the ability clearer, but the BC itself will be able to cancel the ability. The unit itself will not be able to cancel it, but a channeling ability means that the ability is in effect for as long as you leave it active. Meaning, you can turn it off. Viper consume is channeling because it will keep going until you turn it off, or until some other trigger. (Building dies, Viper moves, etc). The point of the range cap is so that the opponent has the opportunity to play against it, instead of just having to deal with it. Take SC2 Forcefields... there is very little the opponent can actually DO about the forcefields going down. You cant always run away from it, and the baiting of forcefields with lings against a 2Base Immortal Sentry all-in is not a very engaging tactic, for either the players or the spectators. OneGoal Forcefields can be destroyed, thus creating an interaction between both players. Unlimited freedom with the range means that the opponent cannot do anything about you casting the ability. (Stick a BC at the corner of a map, let the buffed units run rampant = no fun. Not that it will happen, but the fact that it CAN presents a problem.) Your suggestion also doesn't actually make the casting itself easier, as you are still manually targeting each unit (which is what we want). Bio already has stim drugs, you want to give them OCD too :O Oh dear Lord have mercy.... will they have psychologists to go along with their medivacs now?  @Hider One of the requests for design that Foxy layed out is a design that won't take away from microing Bio is a design that will not dominate your attention and APM/EPM. They dont want a BattleCruiser that would compete with the micro requirements of Bio, but would be more in line with the positional micro of mech. (Mech tends to take less micro during the battle, but demands more careful thought into when and where the units are and how they are set up. Bio is more gogogo multi attack stim split snipe etc. Less conscious decision making and more in-battle control. Both have benefits and interesting ways to play.) Also, the Yamato Cannon is an Iconic feature to the BattleCruiser, and we dont want to mess with Starcraft iconic lore and icons very much. The OneGoal Seeker is the AOE short-range (actually useful) seeker, as opposed to HotS' "poor-man yamato." (If I am wrong on this plz make it so :D) You want the BC to be an APM sink, which is not what the OneGoal team (and me personally) want the BattleCruiser to represent. (To be continued...) | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
You didn't get my point on channelling : How do you cancel an ability you activated multiple times (if I read you correctly, the BC can use it multiple time on different units)? I mean, how do you cancel it on one unit and not on another? Yeah, it might not be necessary, but it's strange that you won't be able to cancel it by clicking the button again (because it would cast it one more time). For the range : Because my ability isn't channelled, with a finite duration, and stun the unit at the end, the problem you're talking of isn't really one : you can't reach that far away from the BC, and if you do, you're stunned at the end. The ability only allows to rush a bit ahead of a small point of control in which you have your BC. And because of the stun at the end, the enemy can just back off a bit (or delay) and pick off the unit when it's stunned. For the bio : The ability is bad on bio (too much micro and energy to buff small units), but there is no reason to remove the ability to do it. And it could sometimes give interesting plays with ghosts. And amazing 2v2 strats with zergs! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On January 03 2013 11:55 Nyvis wrote: Warp prism pickup is always gimmicky, and putting supply in it for avoiding yamato doesn't seem like something too interesting. They're not like medivacs, doing something in a main army outside of picking stuff up. It should stay as a gimmicky strategy and not a core, necessary thing. My comparison with the seeker missile was considering that you have multiple ravens for one BC, and so multiple seekers you send quickly. I don't really like the idea of a damage dealing spell with variable outcome based solely on how fast your click. It would transform the battles with and against it in a one type of micro against one type of micro battle, with the Terran totally unable to micro the rest of his stuff. And forcing all the targeted enemy forces to back off or be loaded seems too powerful : if you have some vikings, the prisms are easily destroyed with the units inside, and forcing half a protoss army to blink back (likely all, then, because you don't want half your army fighting) after engaging and taking tank hits seem to powerful. But the worst is that you didn't speak of zergs. Zergs don't blink. You can pick up in overlords, but they'll be easily destroyed. And of course, you can't pick up your flying units! I think the idea of a very micro intensive ability is good because in mech, you don't really have much micro going on at the moment, but yours would make the battle revolve solely around the BC, even if there is only one or two (likely two to do it again and finish the units). 1) Define gimmicky. 2) Regardless of your definition, it doesn't matter. As long as the toss players can identify that player x uses ability X and remicro against it, its a well designed ability. 3) When that is said I am always open for better designed abilities that you can remicro better against. But how do you remicro against any of the abilties like the current yamato cannon or the suggested 2nd ability that Onegoal has. At least my suggestion gives players a few options. Compare the abillity to snipe. Snipe is instant and the opponent can't do shit (which is why snipe has to be underpowered against most units as the ability is unbalanceable due to its bad design). My suggested ability has at least a few theoretical remicro abilities, and since BC's most likely are used along with mech it also means that making a mistake in your "remicro'ing" against the bc is relatively forgiving as you can always retreat from the battle. My ability would not make mech revolve around bc. (at least not more than onegoal's suggestion). I think pure mech is pretty viable in tvp in onegoals's mod, but if you have a lot of APM my suggestion gives players an opportunity to make it even better. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On January 03 2013 11:58 Doominator10 wrote: @Nyvis; Sorry if I didn't make the ability clearer, but the BC itself will be able to cancel the ability. The unit itself will not be able to cancel it, but a channeling ability means that the ability is in effect for as long as you leave it active. Meaning, you can turn it off. Viper consume is channeling because it will keep going until you turn it off, or until some other trigger. (Building dies, Viper moves, etc). The point of the range cap is so that the opponent has the opportunity to play against it, instead of just having to deal with it. Take SC2 Forcefields... there is very little the opponent can actually DO about the forcefields going down. You cant always run away from it, and the baiting of forcefields with lings against a 2Base Immortal Sentry all-in is not a very engaging tactic, for either the players or the spectators. OneGoal Forcefields can be destroyed, thus creating an interaction between both players. Unlimited freedom with the range means that the opponent cannot do anything about you casting the ability. (Stick a BC at the corner of a map, let the buffed units run rampant = no fun. Not that it will happen, but the fact that it CAN presents a problem.) Your suggestion also doesn't actually make the casting itself easier, as you are still manually targeting each unit (which is what we want). Bio already has stim drugs, you want to give them OCD too :O Oh dear Lord have mercy.... will they have psychologists to go along with their medivacs now? @Hider One of the requests for design that Foxy layed out is a design that won't take away from microing Bio is a design that will not dominate your attention and APM/EPM. They dont want a BattleCruiser that would compete with the micro requirements of Bio, but would be more in line with the positional micro of mech. (Mech tends to take less micro during the battle, but demands more careful thought into when and where the units are and how they are set up. Bio is more gogogo multi attack stim split snipe etc. Less conscious decision making and more in-battle control. Both have benefits and interesting ways to play.) Also, the Yamato Cannon is an Iconic feature to the BattleCruiser, and we dont want to mess with Starcraft iconic lore and icons very much. The OneGoal Seeker is the AOE short-range (actually useful) seeker, as opposed to HotS' "poor-man yamato." (If I am wrong on this plz make it so :D) You want the BC to be an APM sink, which is not what the OneGoal team (and me personally) want the BattleCruiser to represent. (To be continued...) What is wrong with making the BC being an APM sink? I agree though that it shouldn't be a necessity to have a high APM to make mech viable in tvp, and thus I don't think mech players should be required to build the BC to be able to win late game (it shouldn't be balanced that way). However, I want it to be optional, and mech players with high APM can thus be rewarded. So if your a low APM/bad micro mech player you just dont get the BC; instead you have fun with mines and tanks through the whole game instead. EDIT: The current version of your widow mines are extremely micro intensive as well (due to overkill which i very most like). So why can't this concept applt to bc's as well? | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
On January 03 2013 12:12 Hider wrote: 1) Define gimmicky. 2) Regardless of your definition, it doesn't matter. As long as the toss players can identify that player x uses ability X and remicro against it, its a well designed ability. 3) When that is said I am always open for better designed abilities that you can remicro better against. But how do you remicro against any of the abilties like the current yamato cannon or the suggested 2nd ability that Onegoal has. At least my suggestion gives players a few options. Compare the abillity to snipe. Snipe is instant and the opponent can't do shit (which is why snipe has to be underpowered against most units as the ability is unbalanceable due to its bad design). My suggested ability has at least a few theoretical remicro abilities, and since BC's most likely are used along with mech it also means that making a mistake in your "remicro'ing" against the bc is relatively forgiving as you can always retreat from the battle. My ability would not make mech revolve around bc. (at least not more than onegoal's suggestion). I think pure mech is pretty viable in tvp in onegoals's mod, but if you have a lot of APM my suggestion gives players an opportunity to make it even better. Yes, but your ability is also WAY more powerful than snipe. For only one spell, not multiples (capped by energy). Of course, it needs counters. And you didn't answer about zergs (or air terrans/other mech players). And you BC isn't just an APM sink. It's an absolute one. for 1 second, you will do only BC microing. No time for anything else. And what you do after the first BC hit? Another one, because you need two shots to kill immortals. No, really, I feel like it makes the BC take all the space in the battle. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On January 03 2013 12:30 Nyvis wrote: Yes, but your ability is also WAY more powerful than snipe. For only one spell, not multiples (capped by energy). Of course, it needs counters. And you didn't answer about zergs (or air terrans/other mech players). And you BC isn't just an APM sink. It's an absolute one. for 1 second, you will do only BC microing. No time for anything else. And what you do after the first BC hit? Another one, because you need two shots to kill immortals. No, really, I feel like it makes the BC take all the space in the battle. I think you misunderstand the difference between design and balance. Whether its powerfull or not is completely irreelvant. Stats can tweaked. The problem with snipe though is that the ability can't be balanced, thus it has to be underpowered. Balance, however, will never be a serious concern when the ability is equally strong at various skill levels. Zerg counters: Well have overlords along with infestors or ultras, or maybe just burrow them (debatable whether that should be a counter as it might be too easy. This would require testing). But imagine that kind of micro potential. Terran counters: Besides medivacs alot of counters aren't a neccesity here. Its never goanna be that kind of game changing ability against bio (targetting a couple of bio units won't be that a difference. But this is like asking how terran bio player should counter tanks. The most important thing to do is to abuse immobility and split up their army to avoid splash. The same concept will still apply here. Abuse the immobility of the BC/tank army and split up your army during battles. Its not like I plan to make the cannon so strong so that it will have a devasting effect against bio units. I want it to be a unit that adds +5% in a battle (with the potential of +10% if you have insane APM). When that is said I am considering whether it would be an idea to reward players for reacting quickly. Like if one stims and immediately retreats after the yamato is activated it should be possible to avoid the cannons. This would be pretty awesome as well. Also I think you misunderstand the motivation behind using the yamato cannon; It's to get rid of most of immortals shield, then tanks will take care of the rest. What else can the terran mech player do during a fight? Kite hellions back a bit? Target fire tanks? BC's yamato cannon will be much more interesting to watch as the micro potential is a lot higher. But it's all about prioritying for the player as well. Lets say the toss player just has 3 immortals. Its likely that the terran mech player will just use 0.5 seconds of his time on the yamato cannon attacking those 3 immortals, and then spend his time on other stuff if he priortizies that more. | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
- You didn't answer about zerg air, mech terran (you can't move anything), air terran, etc ... I agree it's fine against bio, of course. - The motivations aren't important. The conscequences are. If you design an ability to counter something (which points at a problem on either your side or the countered side, hardcounters are bad), it might be used for more things. This BC research should not be a "kill immortals" thing only. - You will have A LOT of immortals, not 2 or 3, they are gateway units, and less supply than before. - If you tweak down the cannon to balance it, and make it not remove the immortals shield completely (less than 100 dmg), it becomes way too useless against them because they'll still live through the tanks behind the BC. I think having a capacity looking like this is interesting, but the exact mechanic of "how much you click in 1sec" seems bad to me, and I'd rather have it work exactly the same way but with an energy cost by shot instead of one for the full attack. It makes balancing and integrating it a lot easier (basically nerf down the current yamato but lowers the energy cost and allow a BC to cast multiples). But I still think this is unnecessary and yamato isn't the problem. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On January 03 2013 13:04 Nyvis wrote: Power isn't only about stats. You said it yourself for snipe. I fear the problem might be the same here. - You didn't answer about zerg air, mech terran (you can't move anything), air terran, etc ... I agree it's fine against bio, of course. - The motivations aren't important. The conscequences are. If you design an ability to counter something (which points at a problem on either your side or the countered side, hardcounters are bad), it might be used for more things. This BC research should not be a "kill immortals" thing only. - You will have A LOT of immortals, not 2 or 3, they are gateway units, and less supply than before. - If you tweak down the cannon to balance it, and make it not remove the immortals shield completely (less than 100 dmg), it becomes way too useless against them because they'll still live through the tanks behind the BC. I think having a capacity looking like this is interesting, but the exact mechanic of "how much you click in 1sec" seems bad to me, and I'd rather have it work exactly the same way but with an energy cost by shot instead of one for the full attack. It makes balancing and integrating it a lot easier (basically nerf down the current yamato but lowers the energy cost and allow a BC to cast multiples). But I still think this is unnecessary and yamato isn't the problem. 2 reasons why snipe can't be balanced: 1) Its massable 2) Opponent can't remicro against it. My yamato cannon is different. 1) It's not massable. Too some extent the opponent can remicro against it. This ability is therefore balanceable. The BC shouldn't hard counter anything. Its just a unit that is pretty okay against most stuff with good micro, and very good against immortals with great micro, but just mediocore against immortals with mediocre micro. It's definitely going to be effective against immortals if the terran micro's well and the toss just attack moves. However, if the toss has 3-4 warp prism's (which we want them to have against mech right? - makes for entertaining games typically), or has a motership with recall or a MSC with the army, then the toss can too some extent neutralize the effect of the yamato. But as I said previous; (assuming I had the job as game developer), I would probably test around with giving the opposing players other ways of remicroing against it. Regarding how much you can click in 1 second; It isn't that much different from other abilities. It's basically similar to how shift attack clicking works. (like when you target banelings quickly with your tanks. You really really need to do that insanely quickly). I think I probably should have used another term than "click" as it gives negative associations, but really this ability is goanna be just as similar to how most other abilities work. But so far in starcraft, there has never been an ability like this which rewards players in such a straight forward way + it is easily measurable as well. Spectators/fans can clearly see which players are best at using the ability (like player x might be capable of doing 8 attacks with one cannon which he could be recognized for and fans can easily compare their own skills to his). Edit: Regarding air; It could be strong against mutas; true, but the completely package (BC's normal attack + yamato) isn't goanna hard counter mutas. Though I again it could be an option to make it so that mutas can esquape if the zerg reacts quickly - they are pretty fasts so that makes a lot of sense). Against both broodlords + corrupters I intend it to be work okay'ish. If the zerg players micro's his broodlords well it will be difficult for the terran to get into position Its possible though it may be too strong vs vikings (making mass bc's viable). This, could, however easily be balanced by tweaking stats a bit/making thors better/making pdd counter the yamato etc. Also, its possible that (since vikings have a long range) that the viking player should be able to fly his vikings away to avoid being attacked by the yamato. Against tempests it will be useless (too long range). | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
Other abilities cost energy BY CLICK. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you. One is just doing the same thing in less time, the other is doing more with the same energy. If it's so similar, make it like the others (as I just proposed above) and it will be a lot easier to balance. If abilities doesn't reward infinitely the player for clicking faster, but just by a given amount (casting more spells in a given time is still better but capped by energy), it's to still have the feeling of playing the same game at all levels, just better executed. Against air : you can have 2 or 3 BC and use only a few attacks and switch BC to stack more than 100 dmg on one target, making it a powerful tool at defeating vikings/corruptors. With one pdd to make sure the attack will launch, you'll win really easily. I'm a zerg player, and I'm worried that you thought this thoroughly for PvT, but not that much on it's TvZ implications. You could also snipe a whole group of infestors for example... Really, I don't see why you couldn't make the same capacity with an energy cost by shot, making it so much easier to balance while having pretty much the same impact. | ||
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FoxyMayhem
624 Posts
As for the battlecruiser buffing one unit, that thematically feels more like a medic's role than a 500 ton command ship that is the height of terran tech. I think we need to bark up a different tree. EDIT: woah, missed a lot of conversation, reading back. Not sure I can reply though. | ||
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tronix
United States95 Posts
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On January 03 2013 13:59 Nyvis wrote: We want them to have warp prism yes. With their main army? Hell no! Other abilities cost energy BY CLICK. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you. One is just doing the same thing in less time, the other is doing more with the same energy. If it's so similar, make it like the others (as I just proposed above) and it will be a lot easier to balance. If abilities doesn't reward infinitely the player for clicking faster, but just by a given amount (casting more spells in a given time is still better but capped by energy), it's to still have the feeling of playing the same game at all levels, just better executed. Against air : you can have 2 or 3 BC and use only a few attacks and switch BC to stack more than 100 dmg on one target, making it a powerful tool at defeating vikings/corruptors. With one pdd to make sure the attack will launch, you'll win really easily. I'm a zerg player, and I'm worried that you thought this thoroughly for PvT, but not that much on it's TvZ implications. You could also snipe a whole group of infestors for example... Really, I don't see why you couldn't make the same capacity with an energy cost by shot, making it so much easier to balance while having pretty much the same impact. Eh. They will be able to pick up their immortals with a warp prism. Why wouldn't we want that? Remember, its not their whole army. Just the targetted units. The thing about making it energy is that it reduces the skill cap as it incentivizes players not to use the cannon as much as they should. I don't want any penalty for not clicking as much as possible in that timespan. Also this adds a much more interesting feeling to the game as the activation of the yamato cannon can give spectators a similar feeling as when a nuke is about to land. A reduced energy cost of the normal yamato cannon is much more boring with less potential and a more certain outcome. We do not want certain outcomes. The oracle's entomb was the worst example of that. Collosus is another bad example, and the current yamato cannon is also way to easily clickable which gives a certain outcome. Some kind of uncertain outcomes are not great design as they can be too unforgiving (forcefields, fungal), however this is a great designed ability as the opponent can always retreat after having made a mistake against the cannon. Those if he gets outplayed against a terran with that yamato cannon, he will "just" lose the battle but not the game. Also this abilitiy actually requires a lot of skill if it going to turn the game around for the terran player (unlike fungal). EDIT: I am also not sure if you have realized the flawed design of making this a low energy ability (as we just talked about it); It makes it spamable, just like snipe is. My suggested ability makes smartcasting inefficient, while still making it a relatively easy to use ability for mediocore/bad players (as they typically still can deal 100-300 damage with the ability). Regarding it counterting broodlord/corrupter I actually do not see that as a huge problem. I think if we comebine this change with a change to the economy (which we should see soon as it is a neccesity to remove deathball stuff), this will force the terran player to split him self up more and thus making it more difficult to actually get that bc army along with a strong mech force. Thus when a terran gets that army I want him (as long as his micro is pretty good) to beat a corrupter/broodlord army. Remember getting the gas (as a mech player) for raven's and bc's will be very difficult, it's much easier for the zerg player to do that. From a Design pov we want that terran army to beat a zerg army. The zerg strenght, however, relies with the tech switch threat and the mobility. But try to put the numbers into perspective as well. In a normal battle the terran players can probably deal a maximum of 2k. This is assuming he has 3-4 bc's and really good micro. Is that fundementally broken? Isn't that very similar to what a couple of seeker missiles could accomplish, or a couple of fungal growths? I don't this is exactly will be a hard counter unit to anything. It's good against some stuff if micro'ed, and kinda bad if not micro'ed, which limits its potential impact. But building the BC is about fast players receiving those 5% extra in a battle. But of course the range of the cannon can always be adjusted (if 10 range is too much, maybe 8-9 is more balanced). Also, the zerg still has the option of using infestors fungal growth on terran air army. Even though it just slows, it can make it a lot more difficult for the bc's to get into a good prebattle position. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
I also think that click-spam should be kept to a minimum. It's not really that interesting. What we want is for players to make lots of decisions, and need to make those decisions quickly. Movement or targeting are not interesting simply because they are clicks and therefore require actions to execute, but because a player had the opportunity to do something different, and made a specific selection. Presumably they make that selection because it gives them an advantage- but they could be mistaken. This silly new Yamato idea has exactly the same kind of target-selection decision that normal Yamato does, but requires a player separately specify WHEN they are going to use the ability, and then a separate action for WHAT they intend to shoot at. This is dumb. Pressing the button to select the ability and then clicking a target accomplishes exactly the same thing. I do think that the Raven is the unit I am least satisfied with in OneGoal right now. Firstly, as much as Ravens were inaccessible for their 200 gas cost, I did like having the most expensive caster as Terran. It just needed to be stronger to justify its inaccessibility and high cost. Recovery Drone feels like it does not belong on the Raven- I find myself greatly missing Auto-Turret to go along with my actually viable Siege Tanks. Recovery Drone is a good idea, and seems like a fine ability for adding skill and micro, but moving sieged tanks seems contrary to the idea that they can't move at all, and are rooted to the ground. It also has a bit of the same weirdness as Abduct, lessened by being friendly-only, but still not good. Perhaps make it just a repair drone and put it on something else? Perhaps a MULE can sacrifice itself and use the repair drone ability instead of mining. Furthermore, Seeker Missile has short range again. Despite the lack of splash, the opportunity to use Seeker safely in HOTS actually enables a player to get a significant number of Ravens. Would you be open to changing Seeker Missile, or adding functionality on a different unit that provides the HOTS Seeker's anti-Broodlord functionality? Potentially giving a single-target missile ability to another unit? Perhaps giving the Viking a smaller missile that is intended to be used in numbers that requires research? Say, a pair of charges, each a 40 damage missile against ground or air targets at 15 range on a cooldown? Waits three seconds, during which the target can leave range or vision, or be killed or have some defensive ability cast on it (which all sides should have- defensive abilities that is)? Lastly, is it really necessary to have the Hellion consume two slots in the Factory? Having the unit always be produced as one or the other is perfectly acceptable as the transform time is so short. I also think the Hellion/Hellbat situation needs to be looked at, but it isn't pressing. Blizzard seems to have introduced this "unit" because they don't know what they are doing and needed something to sell to Terrans as having "something new" in the expansion. The two units need further differentiation- they are practically identical. Sure, one has more HP, but is slower. Needs something else to differentiate them, or something clever with the transform ability. Could also scrap it entirely and add a genuinely new unit to the Factory instead, if you were feeling ambitious. For one possible idea, how about instead of buffing Hellion HP and making them Biological when transformed, instead just make them lose their Light tag, and acquire 1 (or even 2) base armor? This makes them take less damage from +Light weapons, and effective against units that deal lots of small attacks, including zerglings and zealots (as well as marines). Importantly, it also makes the hellbat version very strong against the hellion version, but with micro possible using the hellion's faster speed and longer range. I would also like to see an ability on either the Hellion or the Hellbat, or different ones on each. Mines, or a self-moving grappling hook (buildings only [perhaps Massive also], deals small dmg) instead of a target-moving Abduct, or Perdition Turrets, or making Hellbats into field engineers, or something else interesting. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On January 03 2013 15:38 FoxyMayhem wrote: Zrana, the second post contains what you're looking for. As for the battlecruiser buffing one unit, that thematically feels more like a medic's role than a 500 ton command ship that is the height of terran tech. I think we need to bark up a different tree. EDIT: woah, missed a lot of conversation, reading back. Not sure I can reply though. So I am trying to understand your design philosophy; You just want some units to require skill, but other units should be more attack-move based? If that's the case this is probably the first time I disagree with your design philosophy. I think it will make much more entertaining games if every single unit in the game is easy to learn difficult to masters. Of couse though it shouldn't be a necessity to build most of the units. Styles that revovle around 3-4 units should be compltely viable as well, and thus I don't want terran mech players finding it a neccesity to beat BC's late game to build a normal protoss army. Positioning your tanks and mines well should be enough to build a toss army. But I think it is pointless to add another passive ability to the game. Building a BC late game just for the passive ability is basically the same as giving terrans a late game mech upgrade that requires fusion core. Obvisouly the only difference is that with your own suggestion we get to see BC's in "action", but what is so awesome about seeing that unit? As long as its abilities are boring it IMO won't make it a more spectator-friendly game if players are "forced" to build that unit. | ||
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