A long standing issue we've had around here was in regards to flat main-nat maps like taldarim, and how they were bad for pvp in regards to vision up-the-ramp and blocking with ff.

But is it okay to return to this style of map?

This is in regard to the MSC, which has a pretty ridiculous 14 range sight, which pretty much negates blizzard's prior ramp-vision change. And in the current metagame, we see a lot of pvp go into expand builds and people just not 4gating anymore. So is this still a concern? Perhaps just use a smaller choke than what was on taldarim? Your thoughts.

Gfire

United States1699 Posts

December 11 2012 19:24 GMT

In HotS it's easy to get high ground vision for protoss now, but you can't warp onto high ground and the game might be balanced around that.

However, even if it's imbalanced a part of me wants to just do it, and stubbornly refuse to change it and force Blizzard to balance the game for such maps. I don't know if that would work, though.

It should definitely be attempted in hots though, imo.

hokeypocus

United States15 Posts

December 11 2012 19:36 GMT

Seems to me that this design feature should be fine, provided the map also provides something advantageous in compensation for the lack of 'ramp protection' in the area. I've always felt that Tal Darim was a very interesting and unusual map in this regard, but it gives little compensation. The natural can be difficult to hold because of the dual attack paths into it, so protoss 'gets nothing' for lack of ramp at the main, so the earlier they expo, the more they are penalized. I uploaded a WIP melee map (on that thread), but no one has fed-back as of yet. My WIP features a flat main-nat, but I feel offers real compensations.

As for reasons 'why this feature is bad', I feel it is mainly mapmaking and gameplay conventions which dictate the majority of map design. Plus, many players, especially high level ones, may wish for a limited role for mapmaking influencing games. I really don't think anyone wants to think the map was the deciding factor in a match (especially if the match is a single game). I feel the map's influence on a match should be in the area of offering choices and compensations for tactics/strategy while being fair to each race. Quite a balancing act...

thezanursic

5497 Posts

December 11 2012 19:56 GMT

If you have a smartly placed choke I guess..

EatThePath

United States3943 Posts

December 11 2012 23:26 GMT

The main ramp is also important for two other big reasons.

One is simply that a wall-off requires 3 buildings combined with a single-forcefield chokepoint. You need the single-forcefield chokepoint for protoss to survive certain all-ins (including 4gate in pvp). If you make a 3square choke on flat ground, you have to do extra work to make it minimum 3 buildings for the wall-off, which kind of defeats the purpose. Does protoss still require a single-forcefield choke to hold all-ins, including 3rax, roach rush, etc? I would lean towards yes but obviously this is open for discussion.

Second, the vision and chokepoint element define the limits of various 1base all-ins in the different matchups. For example, is it even possible for terran to hold a 4gate after going 1rax CC if the protoss can keep making stalkers and shooting down the terran wall? Should that be possible? Is terran then forced to play behind in econ because they can't FE but protoss can? (Or can they, because 3rax would kill them?)

Best case scenario, it represents a new map-specific metagame with otherwise unusual openers that still leads to the possibility of conventional longer games. Will it create more new situations than remove certain possibilities? Maybe. Definitely worth a shot for HotS, not really sad if it doesn't pan out because it probably won't add that much unless it's just a degenerate map meant to last for a month or two.

Fatam

1986 Posts

December 12 2012 07:09 GMT

I think at least a LOS blocker choke is probably good to prevent the map from being too all-inny. Whether that choke still needs to be 1 FF wide.. I hope not. I kind of like the idea of terrans not being able to get a wall-off up as early, esp. on 4p maps where you scout the wrong way and don't get in at all.

SiskosGoatee

Albania1482 Posts

December 12 2012 07:51 GMT

You can't really bring a mothership core along if you're 4gating in HotS, you can't really afford it.

Also, the problems with TDA weren't only PvP even though that one gets the most attention, you couldn't block your ramp with queens meaning that hellion runbies were really strong and every ZvZ turned into a massive baneling all in fest. The weird part is that TDA only uses 2 levels, they could have just made the main one level higher if they wanted to.

EatThePath

United States3943 Posts

December 12 2012 08:17 GMT

On December 12 2012 16:09 Fatam wrote:
I think at least a LOS blocker choke is probably good to prevent the map from being too all-inny. Whether that choke still needs to be 1 FF wide.. I hope not. I kind of like the idea of terrans not being able to get a wall-off up as early, esp. on 4p maps where you scout the wrong way and don't get in at all.

You can still wall very easily unless the choke is huge. A vertical or horizontal choke would need to be 8 or more squares (!) to require more than 2 depots and a rax. On TDA I've seen a depot + CC first wall so many times because why not and you can't actually do that on normal maps.

Sea_Food

Finland1612 Posts

December 12 2012 08:34 GMT

In early game pvp combat, mothership core is just an expensive slow stalker, that takes almost 2 probes of nexus build time. So if you invest in such a thing, how are you supposed to have the requiered bigger army than enemy has, for the attack? Also if enemy goes phoenix, he can kill the mothership core for basically free. So I really dont see why would people build it in early game pvp agression.

What you should be talking about is the no research hallucination for high ground vision. But hallucination is not free either. Its 100 energy.

Point is. Ramp vision advantage is not negated. Atleast for the first ~6min of the game. Also I dont see what gameplay improvements a non ramp main choke would give, so whats the point?

-NegativeZero-

United States2142 Posts

December 12 2012 09:10 GMT

#10

On December 12 2012 17:34 Sea_Food wrote:
Also I dont see what gameplay improvements a non ramp main choke would give, so whats the point?

More interesting map terrain. Right now the nat has to be on either the 1st or 2nd terrain level. With a flat choke the nat could be on the 3rd level and you can go down from there.

Also I think the new KeSPA map Bifrost solves the problem extremely well, with a 1-FF flat choke containing unbuildable terrain indicated by small rock doodads. Not only does the unbuildable area prevent building a pylon that can warp over a FF, but it also prevents T from walling with a single building, forcing them to use the standard arrangement of 3 buildings.

SiskosGoatee

Albania1482 Posts

December 12 2012 09:17 GMT

#11

On December 12 2012 17:34 Sea_Food wrote:
In early game pvp combat, mothership core is just an expensive slow stalker, that takes almost 2 probes of nexus build time. So if you invest in such a thing, how are you supposed to have the requiered bigger army than enemy has, for the attack? Also if enemy goes phoenix, he can kill the mothership core for basically free. So I really dont see why would people build it in early game pvp agression.

Yap, this is the funny part, I think the best way to hold a 4gate in HotS is to actually not build one and hold it the old fashioned way. A tight 4gate tends to hit before photon overcharge is ready and it costs you a sentry and a probe to make one and it packs slightly more dps than a sentry without the forcefield.

Qikz

United Kingdom12023 Posts

December 12 2012 09:49 GMT

#12

I think Bitfrost shows you exactly how to do a choke which means you don't insta die to a 4 gate.

It's narrow/long enough to keep people out, but it's still on the same level.

TDA is bad for the 4 gate only because the choke is so wide and also you can plant a pylon and warp in through into the main from the choke (which was bad map design).

Sadly, because of TDA people now have misconceptions that single level mains don't work at all and now nobody will try them.

archonOOid

1983 Posts

December 12 2012 10:16 GMT

#13

maybe a inbase or natural xel'naga tower could help the awareness of the defending protoss player?

JustPassingBy

10776 Posts

December 12 2012 14:02 GMT

#14

On December 12 2012 04:24 Gfire wrote:
However, even if it's imbalanced a part of me wants to just do it, and stubbornly refuse to change it and force Blizzard to balance the game for such maps. I don't know if that would work, though.

Agree with that. I miss maps which are more flat or maps whose main is on a lower level than the rest. It just hurts the map diversity.

On that matter, I do not know why blizzard dismissed or never considered the idea of a malus for warping in units far away from a friendly nexus, but I don't think that's the right place to discuss here.

On a positive sidenote: Blizzard seemed to have overhauled the snow tileset compared to bw so that, if you practice multiple hours on it, it is not as painful on the eye anymore. So, yay for more snowmaps! (Also would like to see them somewhat overhaul the beach tileset).

SiskosGoatee

Albania1482 Posts

December 12 2012 14:53 GMT

#15

You guys do know that the primary reason it's done in BW is because the top level of most tilesets is unbuildable right? I feel they would've just put it on the high ground if you could plant mineral patches and a nexus on it.

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

December 12 2012 16:21 GMT

#16

For Wings, LoS blockers solve the problem of 4 gate without the need of a ramp. The rest is just adapting your playstyle, which would create unique playstyles maybe.
For Swarm, the giant Nexus cannon gives you enough time to hold it easily.

Would be good to break out of the standard map design in tournaments. But HotS is near and then the game will look new every month for a while and maps changing things up won't be that important (or deadly even if blizzard patches fast again)

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