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[M] (2) TPW Natural Selection (HotS) - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
November 18 2012 19:59 GMT
#21
Wow really beautiful map, looks like we're going to be getting more varied maps in hots!
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
November 18 2012 20:36 GMT
#22
On November 19 2012 04:11 RFDaemoniac wrote:
You could also make part of the connection a mineral patch so that zerg can use a few drones to break a hole through it, ala Breaking Point style.
Probably the best solution, either third is currently almost untakable for Zerg.

You could also make it close enough to the hatches in the natural and third so that the queens can pick away at it, but I'm not sure how long it takes two queens to kill rocks.
Extremely long, Queens do 4 damage on a 0.5 cooldown effectively, rocks have 3 armour.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
November 18 2012 23:47 GMT
#23
Rocks OP
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
lefix
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1082 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 01:03:17
November 19 2012 01:03 GMT
#24
changed up the backdoor a bit, can be blocked with 1 forcefield

[image loading]
Map of the Month | The Planetary Workshop | SC2Melee.net
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2141 Posts
November 19 2012 02:24 GMT
#25
Why not try out the collapsible rocks at the backdoor? Leave the path initially open so zergs can take the early 3rd, but it can be quickly blocked off for the other 2 races since the rocks only have 500 hp. You could move the ramp closer to the primary nat entrance so that a cannon built at the front for an FFE could kill off the collapsible rocks early.

In any case, a completely and permanently open backdoor is pretty terrible for T and especially P.
vibeo gane,
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
November 19 2012 05:44 GMT
#26
On November 19 2012 11:24 -NegativeZero- wrote:
Why not try out the collapsible rocks at the backdoor? Leave the path initially open so zergs can take the early 3rd, but it can be quickly blocked off for the other 2 races since the rocks only have 500 hp. You could move the ramp closer to the primary nat entrance so that a cannon built at the front for an FFE could kill off the collapsible rocks early.

In any case, a completely and permanently open backdoor is pretty terrible for T and especially P.
Yeah, that's probably a better idea honestly. Also, just putting an almost depleted mineral patch there works I guess.

In any case, normal 2000 hp 3 armour rocks are unlikely to work. It's just very hard for Zerg to respond to banshee or void ray pressure if they can't hurl queens around.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
necrimanci
Profile Joined March 2011
70 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 15:35:58
November 19 2012 15:33 GMT
#27
On November 18 2012 04:27 SiskosGoatee wrote:
- thirds are actually ridiculously closer together and they can be sieged from the lowground, Zerg is forced to either expand towards Terran or break those rocks because the way around to those rocks is extremely long. T can use their third as a staging point to siege Zerg's third from the lowground a stone's throw away. Same thing with a stalker/colossus push coming from the third, colossi can harass the third which is extremely close (...)


...so? maybe if zerg is battered in the early game and not allowed to expand safely/freely with no units at all so early in the game, they enter the lategame weaker and infestor/broodlord is easier to handle/actually balanced? you dont know that, you're just following this community's opinion of 'what sucks in maps' that's based on beta/early stages gameplay, when players sucked balls and no one knew how to deal with certain types of aggression

we will never know unless some good players actually test this. and they cant test this if everyone is like 'hurr durr map imba mega suck'

unitless expands shouldnt exist in this game - they cause most of the imbalance and deathballs. and all maps we see follow into that type of play :S
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
November 19 2012 15:48 GMT
#28
On November 20 2012 00:33 necrimanci wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2012 04:27 SiskosGoatee wrote:
- thirds are actually ridiculously closer together and they can be sieged from the lowground, Zerg is forced to either expand towards Terran or break those rocks because the way around to those rocks is extremely long. T can use their third as a staging point to siege Zerg's third from the lowground a stone's throw away. Same thing with a stalker/colossus push coming from the third, colossi can harass the third which is extremely close (...)


...so? maybe if zerg is battered in the early game and not allowed to expand safely/freely with no units at all so early in the game, they enter the lategame weaker and infestor/broodlord is easier to handle/actually balanced?
Do you really have to turn this into a balance discussion?

you dont know that, you're just following this community's opinion of 'what sucks in maps' that's based on beta/early stages gameplay, when players sucked balls and no one knew how to deal with certain types of aggression
Ehh, these maps were pretty common in the beta and more balanced back then because people expanded less quickly. Zerg just needs a gasless third to be able to compete with P's forge expand.

we will never know unless some good players actually test this. and they cant test this if everyone is like 'hurr durr map imba mega suck'
Nope, we will never know for sure, but these threads exist for people to give feedback.

unitless expands shouldnt exist in this game - they cause most of the imbalance and deathballs. and all maps we see follow into that type of play :S
I agree, I don't like them, the issue is that this map makes unitless expands easier for P and T and harder for Z. Z just doesn't want to expand towards their opponent, T does.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
chuky500
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
France473 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 16:21:14
November 19 2012 16:06 GMT
#29
Depleted minerals suck too because the attacker can just bring 2 or 3 workers, make a gas and mine the minerals then gas then minerals back and forth and kill the patches faster than rocks.

I agree that zerg being able to double expand before 4 minutes with no units in ZvP is pretty assymetrical and I doubt that it was planned when the game was made and balanced. It's silly to say zergs need 3 expansions to compete with a FFE, because with a FFE you don't have as many units as with a 1 gate expand because you delay everything. Zergs probably need a macro hatch for the production but we never see zergs put down a macro hatch nowadays unless the zerg is in really bad shape. Zergs just take a 3rd which tells it isn't that hard to expand as zerg. And I'm sorry but talking about a unitless expand being "easier" as Protoss is nonsense, in PvT you have bunker rushes which work 100% of times and in PvZ it's kind of doable if the zerg is being greedy but you take a risk, while tbh zergs don't take that much risks by double expanding against protoss.

In my opinon a general issue is a hard to take 3rd unfavors protoss more than zerg, because in PvZ even though the protoss kills the 3rd the zerg can stay for a very long time on 2 bases + macro hatch and keep making roaches and upgrades and win the game, but if a protoss does a regular push and goes back to his base then a hard 3rd is close to impossible to take for the protoss due to immobility. That's what we saw on Dual Sight and maps like that, hard to take 3rd unfavor protoss in PvZ not the other way around. But on this map you can wall the 3rd as protoss so even if it's far it's probably the same kind of difficulty as Taldarim altar so it's kind of ok I guess.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 16:29:59
November 19 2012 16:26 GMT
#30
On November 20 2012 01:06 chuky500 wrote:
Depleted minerals suck too because the attacker can just bring 2 or 3 workers, make a gas and mine the minerals then gas then minerals back and forth and kill the patches faster than rocks.
Yeah, that's a pretty good point as well, but I guess that all in would at least require some commitment.

I agree that zerg being able to double expand before 4 minutes with no units in ZvP is pretty assymetrical and I doubt that it was planned when the game was made and balanced. It's silly to say zergs need 3 expansions to compete with a FFE, because with a FFE you don't have as many units as with a 1 gate expand because you delay everything. Zergs probably need a macro hatch for the production but we never see zergs put down a macro hatch nowadays unless the zerg is in really bad shape. Zergs just take a 3rd which tells it isn't that hard to expand as zerg. And I'm sorry but talking about a unitless expand being "easier" as Protoss is nonsense, in PvT you have bunker rushes which work 100% of times and in PvZ it's kind of doable if the zerg is being greedy but you take a risk, while tbh zergs don't take that much risks by double expanding against protoss.
P units are just more cost effective until the lategame where it turns around. Z needs that extra gas to hold of 2base timings definitely, the immortal/sentry is hard enough to hold from 3 bases, to hold it on 2 bases is pretty hard.

As for my own ZvP, I never take a gasless third and instead rather do 2base muta or 2base roach timings with an expand behind it, but these are semi all in and have to do some form of damage or catch someone by surprise or you just lose. It's not something you can really do if your opponent knows it's coming and just makes 3 cannons.

In my opinon a general issue is a hard to take 3rd unfavors protoss more than zerg, because in PvZ even though the protoss kills the 3rd the zerg can stay for a very long time on 2 bases + macro hatch and keep making roaches and upgrades and win the game, but if a protoss does a regular push and goes back to his base then a hard 3rd is close to impossible to take for the protoss due to immobility. That's what we saw on Dual Sight and maps like that, hard to take 3rd unfavor protoss in PvZ not the other way around. But on this map you can wall the 3rd as protoss so even if it's far it's probably the same kind of difficulty as Taldarim altar so it's kind of ok I guess.
Dual Sight wasn't balanced either though. But the overal layout of this map I just don't like in general, even with solving the third, I really don't like the forward expansion which is siegeable from the lowground. You just put tanks on that lowground area as T and you're basically a stone's throw away from everything Zerg.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
lefix
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1082 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 17:04:32
November 19 2012 17:02 GMT
#31
just fyi, since i haven't mentioned it before:
unless you have long range units, you will need to move up the ramps to attack the mineral line on the forward base. marines, roaches and stalkers cannot hit workers from the low ground. should make it a little more viable

i also agree with chucky that zergs doesn't neccesarily need a 3rd base, but a third hatchery for lava. the main reason why they usually build their third hatch at the third base is because they're so easy to take.

imho, maps shouldn't be 100% comfortable to play on for every race. there need to be some spots with vulnerabilities, but you shouldn't be prematurely calling a map unbalanced, broken or even "impossible to take a 3rd". i am personally growing very tired of it :D why do players have to be able to apply the exact same build on every map without having to adapt?
Map of the Month | The Planetary Workshop | SC2Melee.net
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
November 19 2012 17:15 GMT
#32
On November 20 2012 02:02 lefix wrote:
just fyi, since i haven't mentioned it before:
unless you have long range units, you will need to move up the ramps to attack the mineral line on the forward base. marines, roaches and stalkers cannot hit workers from the low ground. should make it a little more viable
Doesn't that only serve to further it for a good TvZ map? Zerg doesn't have long ranged units before hive.

i also agree with chucky that zergs doesn't neccesarily need a 3rd base, but a third hatchery for lava. the main reason why they usually build their third hatch at the third base is because they're so easy to take.
I'm pretty sure you can't hold a soulfully executed immortal/sentry from just a macro hatch, with 3 hatches and 6 gas mining it's hard enough as it is. The drone count Zergs are usually at to hold it, around 55-60 drones well oversaturates 2 bases.

imho, maps shouldn't be 100% comfortable to play on for every race. there need to be some spots with vulnerabilities, but you shouldn't be prematurely calling a map unbalanced, broken or even "impossible to take a 3rd". i am personally growing very tired of it :D why do players have to be able to apply the exact same build on every map without having to adapt?
I agree, the major point of contention here is that T and P don't have the same problem. If you make it harder to take for all races it may work out, but in this case the expansion is very easy for T and to a lesser extend P to take but very hard for Z to defend.

Making them half rocks of course solves a lot because Z can now take the other third comfortably, but I don't feel like placing a third almost in the centre of the map in general is ever a good idea, it's why Jungle Basin wasn't exactly a spectacular success.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
lefix
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1082 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 17:38:47
November 19 2012 17:38 GMT
#33
On November 20 2012 02:15 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Doesn't that only serve to further it for a good TvZ map? Zerg doesn't have long ranged units before hive.


Well, it turns it more into a defenders advantage. while marine/roach/stalkers cannot attack the third from the lowground, they certainly can defend it against siege tanks from the highground. i don't think comparisons to steppes of war or jungle basin are justified either, since there is a longer ground distance between these thirds than the naturals on steppes, and especially the thirds on jungle basin. i feel you are greatly underestimating the map size and proportions of this map.

[image loading]
Map of the Month | The Planetary Workshop | SC2Melee.net
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
November 19 2012 20:17 GMT
#34
There is the 2 base early infestation pit build that has become moderately popular. Pretty sure it is designed to hold early aggression such as immortal/sentry.

But regardless of whether immortal sentry can be held on 2 bases, I think it's probably not good to have a single, narrow choke as the only reasonable way for the defender to defend his 3rd. There needs to be a relatively easy way to go around, such as on Ohana. I guess it's just like - FFs are powerful enough already without the map making them more powerful
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Duvon
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden2360 Posts
November 19 2012 20:53 GMT
#35
On November 20 2012 02:38 lefix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 02:15 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Doesn't that only serve to further it for a good TvZ map? Zerg doesn't have long ranged units before hive.


Well, it turns it more into a defenders advantage. while marine/roach/stalkers cannot attack the third from the lowground, they certainly can defend it against siege tanks from the highground. i don't think comparisons to steppes of war or jungle basin are justified either, since there is a longer ground distance between these thirds than the naturals on steppes, and especially the thirds on jungle basin. i feel you are greatly underestimating the map size and proportions of this map.
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

Mineral and gas nodes serve very well as funnels though, increasing aoe damage...
Nothing is impossible, only some things for some people.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
November 20 2012 04:23 GMT
#36
The real danger of the tanks under the cliff scenario is not just fighting the tanks there. The zerg player can easily just run down to the low ground, even with a flank from two sides, and engage on wide open ground. It's a full surround if they want to use the high ground too and they take a few seconds to set it up. Then it's a matter of whether or not they can engage a push. We see this all the time. It's the central pillar of ZvT. Nothing extraordinary at all.

The difficulty is that elevator tactics are super strong if the terran is able to install himself there initially. Is it too strong? There are plenty of other bases on the map, so no, especially with the new change. It's nothing like the natural on Tal'Darim Altar for example.

On November 20 2012 02:02 lefix wrote:
just fyi, since i haven't mentioned it before:
unless you have long range units, you will need to move up the ramps to attack the mineral line on the forward base. marines, roaches and stalkers cannot hit workers from the low ground. should make it a little more viable

i also agree with chucky that zergs doesn't neccesarily need a 3rd base, but a third hatchery for lava. the main reason why they usually build their third hatch at the third base is because they're so easy to take.

imho, maps shouldn't be 100% comfortable to play on for every race. there need to be some spots with vulnerabilities, but you shouldn't be prematurely calling a map unbalanced, broken or even "impossible to take a 3rd". i am personally growing very tired of it :D why do players have to be able to apply the exact same build on every map without having to adapt?

Exactly.

If lefix's intention vis a vis the 3rd options wasn't immediately apparent when you looked at the map, you should take more time to think before you post.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
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