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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On February 23 2013 12:05 SiskosGoatee wrote:
It' s actually there because I put a platform under it because it looks better honestly, my original plan was to put it in dead space. I' m thinking of including a radius 8 storm into the dependency as well, this does look kind of to small.
But what does putting a storm there contributes to the map? Only annoying for those that don't know the map and will never affect those who are familiar with it. The only way for the storm to do something is if there is a air battle in the area, for example mutalisks or phoenixes chasing each other, but that also will not change much in the battle, even though when I think of it if you make it to radius 8 storm then it is sure to affect a lot in an air battle since 8 radius is a LOT (normal storm is 1.5 radius if I am not mistaken).
I doubt that in the vast majority of games this will change anything, but maybe in a phoenix vs phoenix or something similar a smart player will abuse this in order to escape, since it creates a sort of terrain in the air, which is really cool.
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What do you all think of this concept? I had the idea for setting up a natural like this, and wanted to try it out. I am afraid of pigeonholing players into always fast expanding but I think this opens up some interesting possibilities. For example, a Terran player can wall off with a 2rax and move the barracks when they want to expand. It also allows a 1gate and 1rax fe in most situations, but you are only getting a 6m1hyg base out of it. I am worried about PvP as well but since it is HotS beta its a good time to try things like this out.
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The natural
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZhpaXOX.jpg)
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Using storms for asthetics. GOGOGO
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It solves the 'too much dead space' problem essentially wiithout NFZ's by putting storms in it.
That FE natural is pretty interesting. But I feel it's pretty much anti Z as Z doesn't benefit from walls and it's very easy to siege it from the other side.
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Is that nexus a tight wall?
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Yes, if you place the pylon one square down and one square to the right:
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In that case the top example cannot be blocked by single zealot by the way. a pylon and nexus only sharing 1 hex doesn't make a tight wall. Lings can get through.
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Main buildings are larger and have a larger portion cut out of their corners though so the gap can be quite big if you only overlap by 1. You have to look at the pathing layer not the build grid.
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Is this the same as what you have? It looks too wide at least on the cliff side.
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yep, you're right, i just checked it. Well, theres a simple but entirely inelegant fix for that
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2 width ramps don't really work in PvP, and by work I mean that you can't really tech or expand versus a hard 4gate, at least not until some pro finds a solution like a double sentry 2gate expo that uses the fact you can't warp into the high ground anymore in order to defend a 4gate, but right now I have yet to lose a PvP game on Korhal when I went for 4gate. If you're OK with the map being a 4gate fest then its fine I guess, since PvP "cannot be imbalanced" so its "cool".
After we are done with this problem we can go to the next - the natural is a half base since it is an "in-base expo", but actually it is not. You see, if we look at an in-base expo like on Korhal and other in-base expo maps, the expo is in the back of the base, thus in order to scout and harass it you need to go through the base, but in here the expansion is basically a normal expansion, only it a half base and it is at the same level as the main, which is pretty much bad.
That was a cute idea you had there, but it just doesn't work, sorry.
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it's in fact a 3 width ramp. The fact that it isn't inbase is actually a good point. Especially because it's a 3 width ramp.
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On February 23 2013 14:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
it's in fact a 3 width ramp. The fact that it isn't inbase is actually a good point. Especially because it's a 3 width ramp.
Are you sure? It looks like a 2 width ramp to me, count the squares on the grid. Anyways if it is 3 then its fully imbalanced and if the map is continued to be worked on then it should be changed.
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Well yeah, it's pretty much as hard to hold as any nat so making it a full base would probably make sense. Although theoretically a half base could work even for a regular natural and so it might be fine.
As far as I know 4gate really isn't a problem with HotS even with a 2x ramp, though.
Edit: And surely that's not actually 3x?
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On February 23 2013 14:25 Gfire wrote:
Well yeah, it's pretty much as hard to hold as any nat so making it a full base would probably make sense. Although theoretically a half base could work even for a regular natural and so it might be fine.
As far as I know 4gate really isn't a problem with HotS even with a 2x ramp, though.
Edit: And surely that's not actually 3x?
What is as far as you know? Did you see a pro stop a hard 4gate while getting an expansion or a tech building on a 2 width map? Because I got the experience at a mid-high master level, and as far as I know 2 width ramps don't allow you to get tech or an expansion, if you got evidence that suggests otherwise please share it, I would love to see a replay or a VOD when a solution is presented.
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I've had no problems holding hardcore 4gates in PvP on Korhal but I don't get the nexus or tech before I. I hold them with a 3gate + photon overcharge, chrono units, not warpgate and rely on photon overcharge. You have a probe lead in the end and you can squeeze in a nexus while doing it.
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On February 23 2013 14:54 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I've had no problems holding hardcore 4gates in PvP on Korhal but I don't get the nexus or tech before I. I hold them with a 3gate + photon overcharge, chrono units, not warpgate and rely on photon overcharge. You have a probe lead in the end and you can squeeze in a nexus while doing it.
I said tech or expo since I know you can stop 4gate without 4gate, but if you go what you described then 2gate expand with pressure will be much ahead of you, since it looks pretty much the same as a 4gate since its a fake 4gate, which means that the opponent will have an expo while you got no tech or expo yourself, which means you must go all in, but at that point you will probably fail with it. 2 width ramps ruin HotS PvP imo, I don't think that a 1 width main ramp as a requirement is too much to ask, but of course I am still waiting for a pro to use a combination of msc, sentries and 2-3gates to stop a 4gate while getting an expo or tech.
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On February 23 2013 15:11 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 14:54 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I've had no problems holding hardcore 4gates in PvP on Korhal but I don't get the nexus or tech before I. I hold them with a 3gate + photon overcharge, chrono units, not warpgate and rely on photon overcharge. You have a probe lead in the end and you can squeeze in a nexus while doing it. I said tech or expo since I know you can stop 4gate without 4gate, but if you go what you described then 2gate expand with pressure will be much ahead of you It won't, you can scout if they skip chrono on probes and chrono their core their core or not. It's pretty hard to hide a 4gate because you have to move out with your units towards his base very quickly, there's a timing window where you basically always can sneak in a probe if he's 4gating to check if 3 extra gates are building because his units are heading to your base and he really doesn't have the time to cehck every probe spot on his side of the map. If he still has his units there to deny the probe then he's not 4gating since then his first warpin has to be at home, which is to late.
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On February 23 2013 15:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 15:11 moskonia wrote:On February 23 2013 14:54 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I've had no problems holding hardcore 4gates in PvP on Korhal but I don't get the nexus or tech before I. I hold them with a 3gate + photon overcharge, chrono units, not warpgate and rely on photon overcharge. You have a probe lead in the end and you can squeeze in a nexus while doing it. I said tech or expo since I know you can stop 4gate without 4gate, but if you go what you described then 2gate expand with pressure will be much ahead of you It won't, you can scout if they skip chrono on probes and chrono their core their core or not. It's pretty hard to hide a 4gate because you have to move out with your units towards his base very quickly, there's a timing window where you basically always can sneak in a probe if he's 4gating to check if 3 extra gates are building because his units are heading to your base and he really doesn't have the time to cehck every probe spot on his side of the map. If he still has his units there to deny the probe then he's not 4gating since then his first warpin has to be at home, which is to late.
Well you can sneak the probe once the stalker is out of the base, which should be too late I think. About chrono issues, well for all I know a 2gate expo also uses a lot of chrono on the gates and attacks at the same time of a 4gate, but with a bit less units since you only have 2 gates, but it still fakes the pressure and can deny a greedy expansion.
Basically I am not saying that you can't stop a 4gate, actually you can do with good control of the old 3 stalker rush which is used to prevent the proxy pylon and therefore delay the rush enough for you to be able to stop it, but that is a gamble since you won't always be able to stop the proxy pylon, it depends on the map and a bit of luck, which is a bad thing. With a 1 width ramp you can make a build that will stop a 4gate even if you are only suspecting it is coming while staying as greedy as possible with your tech, but on a 2 width ramp its a gamble, and chance is bad for the game imo.
Anyways this discussion deserves its own thread, since it is a relatively important thing, since the results of this discussion will determine if maps will be able to use 2 width ramps or only 1 width.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/muTeoZQ.jpg)
New map version 0.4
Making the map smaller because the nat and third felt really far away and the map felt big. Size is down to 144x130.
Needs a lot of test games about the mainnat-third setup  Theory only goes so far. I think I need to open up the area between nat and third a bit more, perhaps. I changed the ramp to 2x from 3x size.
Toying around with aesthetics.
Version 0,3 for comparision:
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^ I really like how that looks!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Nj0skOn.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jHqVy9E.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ulA3BxE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RPDjJIl.jpg)
