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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On January 16 2013 13:25 eTcetRa wrote:It is definately a FE wet dream, blocked like a normal main ramp unless the enemy breaks down rocks. If I were to leave it like that I'd link the rocks so if one set is broken then both are. Edit: Update. + Show Spoiler +Still not quite sure what to do with the middle or towers. Aesthetics nowhere near complete, either.
Reminds me of this. Yours has a bigger middle though, and the low ground runs through the whole map. Coincidence 
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On January 17 2013 13:16 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 13:25 eTcetRa wrote:It is definately a FE wet dream, blocked like a normal main ramp unless the enemy breaks down rocks. If I were to leave it like that I'd link the rocks so if one set is broken then both are. Edit: Update. + Show Spoiler +Still not quite sure what to do with the middle or towers. Aesthetics nowhere near complete, either. Reminds me of this. Yours has a bigger middle though, and the low ground runs through the whole map. Coincidence
Yes, Meltage and I were discussing how similar the maps are, though his map is a little bit larger than mine (140x130 rather than the 144x116 of my map).
Unfortunately, every update I do to my map makes it more and more similar to Meltage's, which I suppose shows that his map is quite well refined.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GQ2yh.jpg)
Edit: Here is an idea I am thinking of to increase the width of the middle and increase the vulnerability of the final base (which might not be neccesary).
+ Show Spoiler +
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/l85qa.jpg)
This is still very alpha, but the concept is you can take an open lowground third or a slightly safer highground third. To use the highground third you have to break down your own main's backdoor. It's even possible to expand to your opponent's 6th (the corner base) as your 4th if you expanded to the lowground 3rd and wish to continue to expand in that direction + leave the backdoor rocks up. Especially if you hold the XNT nearby.
I'm thinking about adding a bit more to the middle, which might include a piece of land or chasm to make the lowground third a bit more defensible. Although I do plan to keep things in the middle pretty open.
I'm also thinking about reducing the hp of rocks to 1500 each so that it doesn't take as long to kill them. I feel like only 2000 hp for a backdoor is too vulnerable to early aggression (especially a backdoor this wide) but 4000 might be too much.
I like having 2 layers of rock (regardless of the total hp of the wall) as the backdoor in this situation so that you don't have to have LOS blockers or a ramp to prevent blink/warping over the rocks.
A couple other things: I made sure that the natural town hall and most of the natural ramp is out of range of tanks that could be attacking from the overlooking highground third. The highground island near the 4th will probably be unpathable.
Sorry for the essay but basically I'm asking what you guys think I should do w/ the middle (if anything) and the rock situation. Another possibility for the backdoor is 1/2 rocks 1/2 mineral block.
p.s. also thinking about adding a 2nd 1FF ramp like so to help with defender's flow and also allow melee units defending the nat front door to widdle away at the rocks without having to go around.
+ Show Spoiler +
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FUpkIrh.jpg)
Before I contiune detailling the lowground, please shoot me down with critic regarding the layout of my map here.
Decided to rework an ol' map of mine, being Skovbrand. Heavily changing most of the map while also switching to a HotS tileset. (Heard Frozen maps was the in, so decided to make something else! hoho)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EclLO4s.jpg)
Remake of the BW map Oxide by Freakling. I wanted to test something with the 3rd - right now it's 6m1g with a regular geyser instead of a high yield, resulting in a slightly lower ratio of gas to minerals. The intent is basically to force a longer midgame by delaying tier 3 and making players expand more - I figured it's a new game so any complaints about it regarding balance aren't really valid at this stage.
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@Fatam: I like this concept. The mid seems just a bit open to me... But I don't know if that's necessarily bad. It's kind of avoided but since you don't really ever see that much open space, there's no real evidence that it's bad. It should allow for more micro in the late game when both armies are very large, which is probably good.
@Ferisii: I think this is pretty cool. The one thing I thought could use some work is that for some of the bases, I thought you might not have enough space around them. After placing a main building, it kind of constricts pathing through there a bit. For the top/bottom and middle expansions.
@NegativeZero: This looks really cool. I think maybe you should get rid of the little high ground pods so you get a few places with some real open space.
@Scorp: Looks pretty nice. The center seems cool, although I'm unsure about the watchtowers. The third seems a bit close and easy, and you only need your army in one position to defend it. Maybe if you moved the minerals to the other side so they were more harassable by air at least? I don't think anyone will take the half base as a third in any matchup, so maybe you might as well make that a full base?
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I wanted to show this map, which is a development (hots-port) of the last map Ironman was working on. Any thoughts?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Du2Yw8w.jpg)
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On January 18 2013 15:58 Fatam wrote:This is still very alpha, but the concept is you can take an open lowground third or a slightly safer highground third. To use the highground third you have to break down your own main's backdoor. It's even possible to expand to your opponent's 6th (the corner base) as your 4th if you expanded to the lowground 3rd and wish to continue to expand in that direction + leave the backdoor rocks up. Especially if you hold the XNT nearby. I'm thinking about adding a bit more to the middle, which might include a piece of land or chasm to make the lowground third a bit more defensible. Although I do plan to keep things in the middle pretty open. I'm also thinking about reducing the hp of rocks to 1500 each so that it doesn't take as long to kill them. I feel like only 2000 hp for a backdoor is too vulnerable to early aggression (especially a backdoor this wide) but 4000 might be too much. I like having 2 layers of rock (regardless of the total hp of the wall) as the backdoor in this situation so that you don't have to have LOS blockers or a ramp to prevent blink/warping over the rocks. A couple other things: I made sure that the natural town hall and most of the natural ramp is out of range of tanks that could be attacking from the overlooking highground third. The highground island near the 4th will probably be unpathable. Sorry for the essay but basically I'm asking what you guys think I should do w/ the middle (if anything) and the rock situation. Another possibility for the backdoor is 1/2 rocks 1/2 mineral block. p.s. also thinking about adding a 2nd 1FF ramp like so to help with defender's flow and also allow melee units defending the nat front door to widdle away at the rocks without having to go around. + Show Spoiler +
Awesome concept.
I think nat-nat might be a bit too short. And a 2x ramp would probably make more sense considering there's a backdoor.
It might be nice to only have one way to split the map. The problem is that zerg needs an easy third, otherwise I would suggest removing the middle expos. But then that third base becomes very hard to hold when P/T take their inbase third because the distance is so short.
The highground between the fourth and fifth is good for having two potential map splits, but I think it would be ideal to have it less awkward. It makes the distances pretty short in some situations. Not sure what I'm suggesting here; just keep working on it.
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I've had some time to mess around with another WIP. Tried doing some tight expansions. It has some controversial ideas but I think the map might work.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tI5pQFO.jpg)
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Some really cool map concepts going on.
Those middle expansions are quite interesting @ monitor, and @ gfire I always thought a map where you "make your own path" to the enemy via rocks would be interesting.. of course it will probably get rejected by the community because people are so absurdly anti-rocks. @ scorp i think your map is super solid, although I feel like 3 base is a little too easy since you can sit your army below the nat ramp and defend the nat and the third easily from that position.
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On January 21 2013 10:04 EatThePath wrote:
Also you should move the 3 and 9 bases so you can't warp in / shell from the main. Or was that intentional?
Actually the bigger problem is probably that you can warp INTO the main, which would make 4-gates ridiculously OP for every matchup especially PvP.
edit: never mind, i am apparently blind
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idk if his concept is for HOTS or not, but in HOTS this becomes a non-issue since you can't warp UP afaik
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The main is a level higher so it doesn't matter for 4gates in either wol or hots.
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On January 21 2013 10:04 EatThePath wrote:What if you did something like this? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sRPT5NX.jpg) I know it changes how the arm works a little, but it's probably more "fair" and imo makes the side routes way more interesting as attack paths and positional features. Also you should move the 3 and 9 bases so you can't warp in / shell from the main. Or was that intentional? Anyway this is really cool. Okay, silly idea... + Show Spoiler [PL version of your map] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PNvY8dW.jpg) Shallow lava (or lasers... whatever) that do mild damage to units in that area, not enough to make passage impossible but enough to prevent camping. Just for fun. 
Thank you very much! I like the suggestions. The first would fix a lot of issues but I love the S shaped lowground so I'm intent on making it work :D
In all seriousness... the lava might be the solution. It'd make the middle expos easier to split between the players. I can't figure out a way to implement it though 
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DBDGTfJ.jpg)
What do you guys think? I'm not sure I like the 11/12 o'clock base set up atm but dont know what else to do with them. Same with the mid maybe I should just add a small hole in the mid i'm not sure. Should I go ahead and make it a xwt-less map? They're kind of op now and one in the mid is alright but still not the best. (The top/bottom right/left high grounds may or may not be droppable).
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i2ub2e1.png)
Thoughts? I personally think that it's a little chokey around the fourth, but not horribly so.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GziVl19.jpg)
Yap, it's antisymmetric. There are a total of 8 differently playing out spawning configurations rather than the usual 3. I might make it further antisymmetric to remove any similarties between spawns.
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@Sisko: Please turn the grid off for pictures. It's very distracting. =|
We usually call that style shifted symmetry, where you combine rotational and mirror, and typically add a small "tilt". Is there a reason you have 2 gases at the small base instead of 1 HYG? It seems like overkill with the easy 4th (in certain spawns). I would like it better if the ramps in the middle were 3ramps instead of 2ramps, and pulled back 2-4 squares. Just to make the center a little more breezy. Right now it seems too hard to get out of the center if someone is guarding your planned route. I really like how the high grounds interact with the 3rd bases.
@Copper: Chokey around the 4th? No way, this map is huge. Simplify the high ground at the 2 and 8 bases and pair this thing down to 90% of its current size, or smaller, imo. That could be mostly stuff around the edges. I think the proportions in the middle are more or less fine, but a little on the big/open side. I love the high ground platforms at the forward 4th.
@Aircooled: I like it, especially the first 4 bases. I agree the 5th and 6th could be better, as in more interesting and more harmonious with the rest of the map. You could easily go no towers, it's long enough that timing attacks are weaker so towers are less important for spotting an army coming. I could also one tower in the middle though. Are you into fancy options? For example, on tower in the middle covered with oversize rocks to prevent using it until they're destroyed (also makes the middle less open initially). Or, you could use two collapsible rocks on either side of the tower to similar effect, except you can "shut off" tower access from the opponent's angle and try to keep yours open. Eye-popping texture scheme, I like it.
@Monitor: You could even keep the ridge and close off the connection to the arm. The main point of the ridge was to make it possible to gain something by moving out onto your own wing of the S, since it's a good defensive position, and by scouting mid you can give yourself time to fall back to the ramps at the base of the arm. It also gives an attacker a good position to win on their way to making an attack, and it becomes a pivotal area once there's a 4th base. (I think the double bridge is too cumbersome a chokepoint, but I might be overthinking it.)
About lava, it'd be pretty easy to just use regions and triggers, and use whatever aesthetics you want to "explain" it. I was also thinking a little pathway not in the lava through the middle would be nice, not big enough for a large army to sit comfortably, but it'd be out of tank range anyway from the bases. I think.
@Gfire: DROOOOL. Beautiful work.
@Scorp: + Show Spoiler [picture] +
@Negzero: Very cool! I think half base 3rds (normal gas) should always have been a strong go-to for WoL design. Too much "terran imba" early on sent us down the wrong path. The 4th on this map is perfect imo. This map achieves a really good curl into the middle positional shift as the bases are taken without sacrificing stability.
@Ferisii: Good to see your name again. I like what you did with the rocks and the towers. The inner outer 12/6 bases are kind of uninspired. Maybe do something with the outer 12/6 using rocks to play up that theme.
@Fatam: I think you got this just about perfect, except that the natural should be a 2ramp like monitor said. I'd also add some kind of usable terrain in the center area (small dot, group of small dots, tree clump, LosB + dot or clump, etc) to give something to maneuver around and shelter against zerg swarms. Those watchtowers are great.
@etcetra: That third base is awesome. So awesome. The towers are killing me, they see everything. If the map was bigger they'd be fine, but I say just ditch towers. Is the nat2nat too short? This map seems like it wants to be more thoughtful than aggressive. I like the idea behind the rocks on the last base. But I say go entirely the other direction there. Make them gold base, no rocks. This gives a different map split with a ninja expo, or just a cool ninja expo, or an interesting gambit where you skip the 4th base and go straight to gold. I don't think they need a drop strip, it complicates the map. But it wouldn't ruin it. The width in the middle is fine imo, it's impossible to cover all 3 crossings.
I just realized about the towers, this map would be perfect if they were destructible, say 500 shield 500 hp with 3 armor.
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The map is only 132x136 which is just slightly larger than Ohana, so I don't think it's that huge. The rush distance is about 39 seconds. I do agree that it's more open than I thought just from the editor,
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9sBYodn.png)
I made some changes to the middle and the side paths. The watch towers are now on a high ground platform That is larger than the previous unpathable block, making the forward fourth oh so slightly more defensible from the front while it is still vulnerable to harassment from the high ground.
Plus other terrain adjustments to make the map more interesting. You must now break rocks in order to use the side routes.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bappF.jpg)
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