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[M] (2) Yog's Winter - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Prev 1 2 3 All
Callynn
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands917 Posts
September 19 2012 15:05 GMT
#41
This version has been uploaded on EU as well.
Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 01:53:39
September 24 2012 01:52 GMT
#42
This has received a lot of completely differing opinions (some people thought it was too choked, while others later on thought it was too open). Therefore I have to side with someone. I'm going to make an update based on the motm judges' comments, since they hopefully know what they're talking about.

Nat-nat is uncomfortably short once the rocks are broken. Fifth base is either against the opponent's main or its too close to the opponent's fourth. Would be fantastic with a viable fifth base

and
I like the concept a lot, but it feels like it's missing an expo. Monitor's complaints are probably accurate. Even if it could be executed a lot better I want to encourage other mappers to make similar maps.


I saw where they were coming from about the 5th being too close to the opponent's 4th, so I got rid of the 1 FF ramp at the 4th (should completely solve the problem). I lowered the middle and made the shortest rush distance ramps only 1 FF each. The rocks-down rush distance was slightly increased when I did this, and if you go that way you're going up a 1 FF ramp near your opponent which is extremely dangerous. Problem solved.

I haven't added any bases at this time. Maybe if I extended the map bounds vertically and did a LOT of restructuring I could make something happen, but I didn't want to do anything yet because the "needs another expo" comment really confused me and seemed a tad illogical/hypocritical when put into context. One of the winning maps has only 4.5 land bases per side, while this map has 5. -Maybe- he meant that this map should have an extra base because the 5th is hard to hold, and if the 5th was easier to hold then it wouldn't need a 6th base. Fair enough, but then consider how hard it can be to successfully mine off an island expo (which is what that winning map has to add to its 4.5 land bases per side) and that logic really falls flat. (or if it's just the "all maps must have at least 6 bases per side" idea that a lot of people have, then that is also crap)

Anyhow, criticism of criticisms aside, I think some of what they said made sense and here is the result.

[image loading]

Thanks for looking + let me know if it's an improvement.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
September 24 2012 07:21 GMT
#43
I really like the changes that you've made. I think they work well together, and the removal of the 1 wide ramp was really powerful. Though I would make some more adjustments. For example, moving the larger ramps in the middle a little more clockwise. Right now if I were to go from the lower left to the upper right I would go down the small ramp and up the big ramp, pretty much defeating what your intention was, right? You might even be able to do without the 1 ramps, in which case the two ramps are fine where they are.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 10:07:07
September 24 2012 10:06 GMT
#44
Cool. That middle has been a nightmare to balance, even though it looks simple. I played around in the editor with not having the 1 FF ramps in the mid (like you mentioned) before I made the changes, but this felt right. Maybe it isn't. I'll have to brew on that.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
DontNerfInfestors
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain280 Posts
September 26 2012 20:31 GMT
#45
needs more expos
Please dont nerf them.Infestors are fine.
DontNerfInfestors
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain280 Posts
September 26 2012 20:32 GMT
#46
I hope no close positions :D
Please dont nerf them.Infestors are fine.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 21:02:07
September 26 2012 21:01 GMT
#47
there's only 2 spawns lol

the 11 and 5 oclock bases are 4ths
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
titanicnewbie
Profile Joined February 2011
63 Posts
September 26 2012 21:04 GMT
#48
Might I suggest placing a watchtower somewhere on the low-ground between the natural and low-ground third?

I can just see a terran placing a bunch of siege tanks just at the top of the ramp into the middle and cutting off the third, while still maintaining a high-ground advantage. Placing a watchtower would give vision onto the high ground and help with drops coming in to the natural, but it wouldn't reduce the chokey-ness of the area.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 21:15:50
September 26 2012 21:12 GMT
#49
Maaybe I'll add a 6th base for each player. I don't see why so many people seem to think that 5 bases per side is unacceptable (maps have done it before; it works fine. Ohana is a good example) instead of 6. It forces action instead of turtle.

For instance, Mvp was able to beat vortix recently because Ohana has 5 bases instead of 6, and the 5th base is hard to hold (very much like on this map), so vortix knew he had to attack (explanation: he was going through money faster than Mvp because his zerg army wasn't being as cost-effective as Mvp's mech, so he was mining out faster). If Ohana was a 6 base map and had an easy-to-hold 5th and 6th, vortix would have turtled for 10-15+ more minutes on mass spine and BL/infestor/corruptor and possibly won out of attrition. Boring, terrible gameplay. But if everyone wants 6+ bases on every map.. I'll cave.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
September 26 2012 21:14 GMT
#50
Might I suggest placing a watchtower somewhere on the low-ground between the natural and low-ground third?

I can just see a terran placing a bunch of siege tanks just at the top of the ramp into the middle and cutting off the third, while still maintaining a high-ground advantage. Placing a watchtower would give vision onto the high ground and help with drops coming in to the natural, but it wouldn't reduce the chokey-ness of the area.


Hey thanks for the feedback. Was typing the other reply as you posted. The siege tank at the highground thing has already been thought of and dealt with (they can only cover part of that passage if they are sieged up there, it's not nearly as powerful as it seems). But yeah that was an initial concern so good eye. Maybe I can play with XNT placements when I begrudgingly add that 6th base lol. (since it will require a significant restructuring of the map)
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Callynn
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands917 Posts
September 27 2012 08:52 GMT
#51
Version 1.3 uploaded on [EU] for testing and playing.
Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered.
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
September 27 2012 19:42 GMT
#52
Cool, thanks. May not add that 6th base after all (I know, I waffle worse than a politician). I played around with it, and the only way to feasibly do it is to completely change the map and throw off all the proportions (e.g. if you extend the vertical bounds to add a 6th somewhere in the bottom mid, there is now a shitton of airspace that wasn't there before around the mains).

I have a couple ways to make the 5th much easier to hold (the 5th being easier will have to be enough), after I test it quite a bit (+ Show Spoiler +
because I'm tired of updating this map tbh :-P I have much more interesting map ideas than this thing
) I'll post.

Sorry to everyone for this thread being near the top so much (no one has complained but I'm sure someone has thought it lol), I know it's been bumped (mostly by me) more than an invisible man in a subway station
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
MleTempS
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada29 Posts
September 28 2012 16:40 GMT
#53
I think that the xel naga should be on the high ground.

That way centre control is more important.

just my two cents.

Looks good though
Gaius Baltar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States449 Posts
September 30 2012 18:00 GMT
#54
i dig it.
CamoPillbox
Profile Joined April 2012
Czech Republic229 Posts
September 30 2012 19:08 GMT
#55
just make mid platenau with no xelnaga will be much much better
Czech Terran(Hots) player
DreadLocK
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada49 Posts
October 01 2012 20:18 GMT
#56
Hey Fatam, it looks like the top of the main ramp can be hit by siege tanks from behind the rocks. Wouldn't that be imba in TvT because one player can do damage and elevator in the main while the other player has to walk all the way around to attack the siege tanks?
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
October 01 2012 23:43 GMT
#57
Hey Fatam, it looks like the top of the main ramp can be hit by siege tanks from behind the rocks. Wouldn't that be imba in TvT because one player can do damage and elevator in the main while the other player has to walk all the way around to attack the siege tanks?


Hey. I put the rocks as far out as they are for that reason (it's 12.2-13 distance from the closest spots behind the rocks to the main ramp, siege tank range is 12). Good eye though, maybe I'll move the rocks out another square or two if I can so that people have more breathing room for buildings and such.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
October 01 2012 23:56 GMT
#58
On October 02 2012 08:43 Fatam wrote:
Show nested quote +
Hey Fatam, it looks like the top of the main ramp can be hit by siege tanks from behind the rocks. Wouldn't that be imba in TvT because one player can do damage and elevator in the main while the other player has to walk all the way around to attack the siege tanks?


Hey. I put the rocks as far out as they are for that reason (it's 12.2-13 distance from the closest spots behind the rocks to the main ramp, siege tank range is 12). Good eye though, maybe I'll move the rocks out another square or two if I can so that people have more breathing room for buildings and such.

Well, if both players have tanks then they can shoot each other of course, and the defender has high ground vision advantage. If the defender has mixed/bio force, you can still walk up to one side of the rocks and shoot across them at any tanks close enough to hit your ramp (or so it appears).

Also, isn't the point of the rocks to introduce new unique situations? (I understand if something is abusive it should be changed, but the players will have ample opportunity to destroy the rocks before a siege/elevator push hits, and that would be part of playing TvT on the map once that was "figured out.")
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
October 02 2012 00:04 GMT
#59
Yeah I don't think it's much of an issue. As you said you can run marines out onto the ledge above where attacking tanks would be + highground advantage + in TvT you can have tanks too.

Anyway, thanks path for the drawing on the other thread it was good/helpful
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
October 02 2012 05:34 GMT
#60
npnp
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
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