Honestly I think it looks like kind of a cool idea.

The main issue I see as a zerg player is that I wouldn't have creep in the right places to defend rushes/contains. Maybe if the base was closer to the ramp it wouldn't be as much of an issue? Or maybe that would make it worse? I'm not sure. I'd have to try it out.

xeqwist

55 Posts

August 10 2012 01:37 GMT

#23

Sorry for the relatively late response, but I'm glad to see that so many of you have responded!

Obviously there is some problems with the design in the way I presented it. ex. I'd probably have to add some LoS blockers on the other side of the rocks to prevent warp-ins, and the ramps might have to be rearranged to be more balanced considering zerg's creep spread, etc., but I probably will try to incorporate this into the map I'm making since I've gotten quite a lot of positive feedback!
I have a few ideas after looking through all of your replies!

Thanks to everyone who came with their input!! =D

I'm also particularly interested in seeing OxyGenisis' map with a similar concept.

Callynn

Netherlands917 Posts

August 10 2012 09:04 GMT

#24

On August 10 2012 05:44 OxyGenesis wrote:
That's actually exactly the set up that I have for my new map. It's nearly done so I'll probably release it soon. Here's a sneak peek.

I think your wide rocks actually pose a bigger problem than the smaller rocks from the OP. You need that choke towards your natural once the rocks are down.

OxyGenesis

United Kingdom281 Posts

August 10 2012 10:28 GMT

#25

On August 10 2012 18:04 Callynn wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think your wide rocks actually pose a bigger problem than the smaller rocks from the OP. You need that choke towards your natural once the rocks are down.

I'm actually not convinced that you do need the smaller choke as I think the rocks take long enough to break down that the defender has ample time to get defences like spine crawlers up, especially has they have the high ground. I did actually do a version with smaller rocks however, just felt the larger rocks were neater. I would love for someone to do some testing in to viable aggressive builds against this setup, based around breaking down your enemies rocks and the pros and cons of large choke vs small choke. Also whether you can hit the rocks from the low ground is something to be considered.

As for the 4gate issue, I think there is probably a way to use invisible LoS blockers in the rocks and then a trigger that destroys them when the rocks are broke down. That's something I might look in to but using regular LoS blockers is also a fine solution.

xeqwist

55 Posts

August 10 2012 12:56 GMT

#26

Oxy, I love the atmosphere in that map, I'm not sure about the whole small vs. big choke but I think a smaller choke is gonna actually benefit the attacker as forcefields/tanks(/banelings?) have potential to do more "damage" in chokes. So I think your initial design might be more balanced... not completely sure though.

a3den

704 Posts

August 10 2012 18:01 GMT

#27

Oxy : I like bigger rocks better, this layout with the small high ground vantage point leading to the ramp is way better though.

EatThePath

United States3943 Posts

August 10 2012 20:09 GMT

#28

On August 10 2012 19:28 OxyGenesis wrote:

Show nested quote +

The rocks take too long to break for a rush to be "unbeatable". Any rush requiring a wall will be easy enough to beat, you only need to wall your initial entrance and then secure your natural with wall/units. Any rush relying on a straight up fight will be so delayed by rocks that the defender will have ample time to prepare. It's not very different from a normal natural at all, there is a slight increased opportunity for the attacker because of the 2 paths, but there will be a wall there anyway if it matters. This design, in general, is just fine. Frankly, it doesn't add that much to the dynamics of the natural; you can just defend in front of the rocks, like a normal FE but with the expo tucked far away from the wall -- beyond the main base in fact. But a little change of pace is good.

You can re-envision this setup as one large main base with an in-base expo, and a block of negative space inside the main base. The real entrance to the main base is probably wider than a 1ramp, but until the rocks obscuring one side of the negative space are broken, the 1ramp is your functional main entrance. Beyond 6 minutes it's a completely normal game except you have this blob of unbuildable terrain in your main base.

On August 10 2012 19:28 OxyGenesis wrote:
As for the 4gate issue, I think there is probably a way to use invisible LoS blockers in the rocks and then a trigger that destroys them when the rocks are broke down. That's something I might look in to but using regular LoS blockers is also a fine solution.

You could also just use the data editor to make the rocks block vision. ^^

But I think normal LosB are fine, it doesn't really hurt anything. Very minor reduction in buildable space which shoudn't have a real effect if you have enough build space in the main base.

edit: I should add that PvZ and TvZ are the only real things you need to consider. The other matchups depend on a "fair fight" compared to the zerg swarming past your wall in XvZ. This is why you can just make a wall at your 1ramp and be fine, the rocks take too long to break for a "rush" to succeed. The design has far more impact in a later attack before the 3base stage of the game, where you can use some tech units with good position to really mangle defensive efforts. But at that point, the defender should have been trying to hold the front area before he gets his position split.

edit2: Actually this does change one thing significantly. Protoss can't deny the natural with forcefields for nearly as long. Usually trapped player has to wait for blink or colossus, or medivacs or tanks, or zerg can be broken in half (literally) with a sentry prism gateway all-in.

iamcaustic

Canada1509 Posts

August 11 2012 17:57 GMT

#29

On August 10 2012 19:28 OxyGenesis wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's starting to look a lot like a more turtle-friendly version of the Entombed Valley 3-base layout, with that third base just outside the other main base ramp. Can't say I'm the biggest fan of that.