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On July 05 2013 18:20 Kabel wrote:
I will get a new patch up for this evening. I will post the details so we can discuss it before it gets published.
Edit: Details for the next patch.
- Zergling build time increased from 24 to 27 seconds.
- Hydralisk build time increased from 30 to 33 seconds.
- Queen attack cooldown nerfed from 1 second to 1,25 seconds.
The point of this is to make Zerg more vulnerable when not having units. It will be a slightly larger risk in playing greedy, which might make it easier for Protoss to punish Zerg. (Since it will be harder to pop a large amount of Zerg units so quickly.)
- Spider mine reworked as descriped in the post on the previous page. Mostly it is an AI change.
- Irradiate has 6 casting range instead of 8.
- Shock has been pimped even more.
- Banshee range increased from 4 to 5.
- Sentinels attack is now more microable, which might make it stronger for early harassment.
- Speed Zealots and speed Hydralisks now have the same movement speed. (Earlier, speed Hydras were faster!)
Some bug fixes.
I think this was all.. Hmm
Thoughts?
Ps. I have no solution to TvP yet. That match-up tends to be quite stale, where neither player can attack the other for a couple of reasons, which often leads to lame games. There are some possible adjustments that can be made, but nothing feels right enough.
Basically I like everything I see in this patch, with the exception of a couple I'm indifferent to or undecided about.
There's also
Queen attack cooldown nerfed from 1 second to 1,25 seconds. - Awww. ;(
Should be fine though.
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'I plan to get a new patch up tonight, if I get home in time. I am gonna give the Immortal and Marauder a try. Most of all the other stuff is just bug fixes and smaller adjustements. The major stuff is:
Immortal
+ Show Spoiler +Cost 150/100
HP 100
Shield 150
Attack range 6
Attack cooldown 1.5 seconds
Damage 15 vs light, 20 vs all, 25 vs armored
Speed 2.5
Takes 50 seconds to build in a Gateway.
Requires Cybernetics core.
No Hardened Shield. (Remember the Safeguard ability on Sentinel instead...)
Immortals and High Templar can only be produced from a Gateway. (Not warped in.)
Stalker
+ Show Spoiler +Cost 125/50
Life 100
Shield 50
Attack range 4 + 2 from upgrade
Attack cooldown 1.75 seconds
10 dmg vs armored, 15 vs all (including light.)
Speed 2.95
Takes 42 seconds to build.
Requires Cybernetics core.
Blink cooldown 12 seconds.
In fact, almost all stats are the same. Only 10 less shield. Damage earlier was 11 vs light, 13 vs all, 15 vs armored.
Marauder
+ Show Spoiler +Cost 75/25
Life 100
Attack range 5
Attack cooldown 1.5 seconds (1 with stimpack)
Damage 8 + 6 vs armored.
30 seconds build time
Requires tech lab.
No Concussive shells.
They cost 25 mineral less, have 25 life less, and lower attack damage, compared to the SC2 version.
Keep in mind that Terran has acess to Medic healing + Matrix early in the game, and Protoss does not have acess to Force Field.
Other stuff:
+ Show Spoiler +Lurkers now deal +4 extra damage vs armored units.
Armor classes of all the units:
Marine, Zerglin, Zealot and workers are light units.
Marauder, Stalker, Immortal, Lurker, Siege tank, Goliath, Ultralisk, Banshee, Vessel, Arbiter, Scout, Archon, Structures are armored.
Medic, Reaper, Vulture, Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Viking, Corsair, Sentinel are normal armor.
I am unsure of the remaining units armor classes. Can double check it when I come home again.
Why?
+ Show Spoiler +I have decided to give this change a try, after some long discussions with Hider, and a few other players. Here is a big post about this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=319Maybe this is my worst misstake. Maybe it ends up working really well. Maybe it is really unbalanced from the start. Maybe it makes the game more fun. I don´t know. We can only predict. But I do think it has potential. If it ends up sucking, I will revert it in the near future. If it feels better, we can continue to improve the game based on this new unit line-up. Ps. I am also working on adjusting the economy. I am looking at a couple of smaller adjustements, but I have not settled on a solution yet. This will come in a later post. Ps2. I know there are some other issues with Nerve Jammer and some other content in the game. I will try to fix it with the next patch. Ps3. Note that all other units in the game have the normal Starbow stats. So I have not changed anything else.
I will write a post here when the patch is uploaded. (Probably in ca 1,5 hours, depending on when I get home.)
In the meantime, feel free to protest!
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I object! Nah, jk. But why not nerf stalker HP even more and let blink cooldown be 12 sec again? Make it the "mutalisk" of protoss.
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Ok, the first day with the new patch!
The fundamental question:
Do these units lead to a more exciting, dynamic, fun and interesting game, in all match-ups?
(Based on the first impression, and the games from today.)
The secondary question:
How can the stats be modified to balance the new units/dynamics? (It was not that balanced atm ^^ )
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can't tell yet, too few games
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Personally, all I saw was less Tanks in TvP, which is the exact opposite of what I find interesting about that match-up.
I've said it a thousand times, but pure Bio has no right to be a viable composition.
Another thing that bothers me about the additions of the new units, particularly the Marauder - they don't control differently. It's just a big Marine, and the version of the Immortal we are using is kind of a big Stalker.
Look at Zerglings, Hydralisks, and Lurkers, and how differently the move and behave. Look at Zealots, Stalkers, High Templar and Reavers. Looks at Marines, Firebats, Vultures and Siege Tanks. Then contrast that with Marine/Marauder, and how they are basically the same unit with different bonus damage. What does that add to the game?
It's the same reason I always thought Roach/Hydra was awful as well in SC2 - thankfully we got rid of that.
The Immortal has a chance to be a little more unique - it's slower, and doesn't have blink, which is a start. But it still needs a further degree of separation from Stalkers to be worth having it as a unit in its own right, in my opinion. Some sort of ability, or range difference, or anything like that.
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On July 11 2013 08:31 SmileZerg wrote:
Personally, all I saw was less Tanks in TvP, which is the exact opposite of what I find interesting about that match-up.
I've said it a thousand times, but pure Bio has no right to be a viable composition.
Another thing that bothers me about the additions of the new units, particularly the Marauder - they don't control differently. It's just a big Marine, and the version of the Immortal we are using is kind of a big Stalker.
Look at Zerglings, Hydralisks, and Lurkers, and how differently the move and behave. Look at Zealots, Stalkers, High Templar and Reavers. Looks at Marines, Firebats, Vultures and Siege Tanks. Then contrast that with Marine/Marauder, and how they are basically the same unit with different bonus damage. What does that add to the game?
It's the same reason I always thought Roach/Hydra was awful as well in SC2 - thankfully we got rid of that.
The Immortal has a chance to be a little more unique - it's slower, and doesn't have blink, which is a start. But it still needs a further degree of separation from Stalkers to be worth having it as a unit in its own right, in my opinion. Some sort of ability, or range difference, or anything like that.
First prority is to get the matchup-dynamic right. Then we can look (if possible) into making the units different/more fun to control.
@ Sentinel
I just played vs Alpha and literraly massed them early game. While lots of fun and extremely mechanically rewarding, I think it might just be OP at 25 energy. I think 50 energy and slightly faster energyregeneration would a nice middleground (balance wise).
Further, I also wouldn't mind if the targetting was a bit smarter - I think it targets buildings at the moment. Would be nice if it didn't.
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I think the two problems are actually quite interlinked. The more unique units there are, the more varied and interesting dynamic interactions will emerge. Brood War has almost no units that are remotely similar within the same race. Marines and Goliaths might be the closest thing, or maybe Dark Archons and High Templar, and those still have numerous differences.
Regardless, I didn't see how the introduction of the new units improved PvT in any way. The couple games I saw actually looked worse. I'm also still not seeing a real role for the Sentinel either, it feels a bit tacked on and forced at the moment.
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On July 11 2013 09:26 SmileZerg wrote:
I think the two problems are actually quite interlinked. The more unique units there are, the more varied and interesting dynamic interactions will emerge. Brood War has almost no units that are remotely similar within the same race. Marines and Goliaths might be the closest thing, or maybe Dark Archons and High Templar, and those still have numerous differences.
Regardless, I didn't see how the introduction of the new units improved PvT in any way. The couple games I saw actually looked worse. I'm also still not seeing a real role for the Sentinel either, it feels a bit tacked on and forced at the moment.
Have you read my long post giving the explanation for the various changes?.Mech has in Starbow had a tendency to be awesome late game, however often times nothing really happened untill the terran took a 4th/5th.
These changes have made harassbased play in the early midgame a lot stronger for the terran player. I would argue, that it makes mech TVP more BW'ish, cus in BW no race really had a clear map control in the early midgame - at least we didn't see the protoss surrounding the terran player as we saw so often in Starbow
When that is said, there might be a problem with protoss not being mobile enough to attack/abuse immobility of a 4-base terrans, however that is probably fixable (if it turns out to be a viable concern).
Bio is currently straihgt up UP, so don't really look too much into that atm.
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Kabel. What is the purpose of introducing the maurader? I think I know why, but I want to be 100% sure. I cannot comment on it unless I know if it fulfills its purpose. I have a lot of other thoughts as well but they were ranted on the stream. If you want me to gather them I a post I can do so.
I would like to see further differences between stalker/immortal by taking more hp off the stalker and give immortal less range. (Maybe let stalker start with 5 range and immortal have 4). Let stalker be the fasted ranged fragile one and immortel the slow strong, but less range one.
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@Xiphias
It depends on how you define purpose.
The larger purpose of all units in the game is to contribute to a fun and exciting gameplay. (Of course.)
What is fun and exciting gameplay?
Some of my critera:
- Varied gameplay (So each match-up does not look the same game after game.)
- Interesting micro intensive combats (Where micro really matters to determine the outcome of a fight.)
- Back and forth action/aggression between the players.
- The game is won via lots of smaller combats/harassment during the course of the game.
- Room to see players skill come alive in the game: mechanic skills, tactical skills, strategy, etc
- And a lot of other stuff. We all have different critera here.
Everything in the game should aim to improve this. (And more.)
The reason I added the Marauder is that it can help to improve some of the aspects above. Or rather, I THINK it can help us to improve the game, if properly balanced, despite everything bad I have said about the Marauder in the past!
And the only way of knowing is to actually try it in the game. (And hope you all have patience with this... )
What does the Marauder add in smaller terms?
- Allows for more playstyles, unit compositions, build orders, strategies and variation in the match-ups
- Strengthens the Drop harassment potential for Terran in TvT and TvP. (Smaller skirmishes)
- Allows Terran to get early aggression mainly vs Protoss and Terran. (Which earlier looked very easy to defend.)
- Allows us to rebalance and redistribute the strength/weakness among the different units, which would hopefully add more room for micro/counterplay/etc in combats. (Instead of seeing ONE type of core units fighting vs ONE other type of core unit.)
Is my answear too vague?
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Thanks for the reply
I guess I meant: What is the purpose of adding the marauder now?
Let me just jot down some thoughts. I think the marauder might actually lead less variety of units since it can deal with a lot of situations coupled with the marine. The Ghost, for example, becomes even more useless.
Another thought: Was there a specific purpose in adding the marauder coupled with the immortal? Or, in other words; can we add the immortal without adding the marauder? Do they share some "bond" which causes imbalances if we only add one of them?
Also, I agree with Dec that the immortal should pretty much be the old stalker with less speed, no blink, and maybe more hp, and that the current stalker should be much more specialized as a very mobile but more fragile unit. This is the case to some extent but the roles could be further defined imo. One potential problem, however is that a too fragile stalker won't stand a chance vs mutalisk. I see why you kept its dmg vs medium at 15.
I think it is also important that terran has a clear counter to immortal. I'm not quite sure which unit that is atm, but the tank should fare fairly well vs it. It should not be a pure anti-armored unit like it's SC2 counterpart (and it is not atm either, I am just stating my mind here, no necessarily criticizing)
This is my desire: Remove the maurader, keep the immortal, make the stalker even more fragile (and maybe reduce it's cost), Strengthen the ghost / reaper (bring back the g-4 charges, maybe modified), nerf reaver dmg before upgrade.
Bug: (?) Reavers benefit from normal weapon upgrades atm. They did not do that in BW (?)
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Suggestions for rebalance:
Current stats: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=324#6463
Stalker
12 or 13 dmg vs everything. (Or 12 vs armored, 13 vs light, 14 vs normal?)
Range upgrade costs 100/100 instead of 150/150.
Atm, Stalkers damage just feel strange. They barely hurt armored units or structures. They shoot and shoot on a bunker and nothing happens...
This change would still let Stalkers have a decent damage, but the cheaper range upgrade would make them more useful for harassment/pressure AND dealing with Hydras/Mutas.
Immortal
Range reduced from 6 to 5.
Marauder
Damage increased to 10+6 vs armored. (From 8 + 6 vs armored.)
Make it NOT require a Tech lab.
Marauder is tricky. I hesitate to make it as strong as in SC2, because I fear that would be broken and lead to lame play in Starbow. Instead the Marauder "should" be stronger in the early/mid game, but become weak vs enemy late game units.
Reaver
Damage reduced from 100 vs all, to 80 vs all (60 vs light).
They would still one-shot Hydras/Marines. But NOT wipe out entire battalions of units in a shot... Instead Protoss needs the damage upgrade for that, which would help to make the super insane Reaver come later in the game.
Thoughts?
Edit:
Additional stuff -
What can we do with the Nerve Jammer?
+ Show Spoiler +Potential solutions:
Increase casting cost from 100 to 125. (Makes it more efficent to "lure" the enemy to cast it, then retreat, then attack again after it ends.)
Give it a few seconds "start-up." Terran casts it at a location, after 2-3 seconds, it activates.
Rework so it does NOT prevent all attacks. Instead it reduces damage dealt by 50%. We can also make it work on Static defence?
Should Static defence have the same attack priority as workers/units?
+ Show Spoiler +
Atm, if for example 4 Vultures attack a Protoss mineral line, the Vultures will start to attack the Cannon or units. (Ignore the workers.)
Would it be better if static defence has the same attack priority as workers? (Cannons, Spine Crawler, Planetary Fortress)
If so, harassment units would still attack the workers, if they are closer than the cannon, but if enemy units come nearby, the harassing units will attack them instead.
Ps. I ask before some players have reported this to me.
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I heard micro was a pretty good method of killing workers with your harassment.
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On July 11 2013 17:39 decemberscalm wrote:
I heard micro was a pretty good method of killing workers with your harassment.
Yes, Stalkers 3-shotting workers (15 damage vs light) should in theory be a buff to stalker bunker harass.
My first impression was that immortal and stalkers damage felt somewhat correct. Regarding range of immortal, I actually think the most important element to consider is the hydra/lurker vs stalker/zealot/immortal dynamic. How do we make that fun and micro and rewarding for both players? Does 5 range do a better job of that than 6 range?
Another thing: I think we should consider to remove high ground from all entrances to 3rds as all races are no longer heavily dependant upon teching in order to survive. I can easily imagine stalemale situations where a protoss player just sits on top of the ramp and makes it impossible for the terran/zerg to move in. High ground advantages are instead neccesary for the late positional play, but I think they will turn out to be counterproductive in terms of creating a fast-paced postional play.
The alternative of course is to reduce it from the current 50% to 25%-35% or something like that. Not sure how that will work out.
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Another thought: Was there a specific purpose in adding the marauder coupled with the immortal? Or, in other words; can we add the immortal without adding the marauder? Do they share some "bond" which causes imbalances if we only add one of them?
The question is: Do we want Bio units to be a part of this game, in TvT and TvP?
Personally I would prefer if bio has some role in those match-ups too, since that leads to a more diverse game.
The Marauder is the "simple" solution to add the much needed strength to bio in those match-ups, especially in the early/mid game.
Ofc we can add only the Immortal, but without the Marauder, I fear mass Stalkers would STILL dominate in PvT.
(They are great vs Marines/Vultures/Banshee. In other words, Stalkers alone can deal with all harassment threats from Terran. EXCEPT the Marauder.) I recommend you to read Hiders posts about this, since he has covered the topic already.
I guess I meant: What is the purpose of adding the marauder now?
Let me just jot down some thoughts. I think the marauder might actually lead less variety of units since it can deal with a lot of situations coupled with the marine. The Ghost, for example, becomes even more useless.
I want to try the Marauder at some point. It seemed like a good moment to do it together with the Immortal, since they kinda have a balance relationship.
Hopefully the Marauder should not make other Terran units obsolete. We must be careful how we balance it.
Atm, Ghosts do not see any play. But the starting ability is MUCH better now. But Ghosts are "suppose" to be useful in other situations and vs other units, compared to the Marauder. We need to see how it works in game.
This is my desire: Remove the maurader, keep the immortal, make the stalker even more fragile (and maybe reduce it's cost), Strengthen the ghost / reaper (bring back the g-4 charges, maybe modified), nerf reaver dmg before upgrade.
I will remove the Marauder and/or the Immortal if nothing good comes from it. Atm I want to see more testing.
Stalkers might need to be more fragile. (But I don´t want to nerf them into uselessness. Soon they die from 2 tank shots!)
Ghosts "should" be stronger now.
Reaper with G-4 charges might make a comeback.
Reaver damage before the upgrade will probably be nerfed.
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EPT
