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On November 10 2011 07:00 chuky500 wrote:Roggay : Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:28 Superouman wrote:On November 10 2011 04:26 chuky500 wrote:FlopTurnReaver you seemed pissed by what i said. Creative doesn't mean wicked. On the ladder the majority of games only go to 2 or 3 bases and the majority of engagements happen close to players bases not in the middle of the map. That's why the layout of the bases matter a lot and matters more than how the middle of the map is laid out. If you look at the 7 finalists, appart from Haven's Lagoon they all have the same 3 base layout : - a big main - a tiny natural - a ramp between them - a 3rd expansion touching the natural ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N3m4W.jpg) And this is also the case with Motm, in Motm 9 all finalists also had this overused layout. Say this is "BS","plain stupid", that I make "myself look silly" but it's a fact, mapping contests pick maps that are very conservative. Now you ask me why people like Metalopolis ? The lay out of the first 3 bases is unique. How hard is it to understand maps will play the same if bases are the same ? This is the most balanced layout if you don't want 2base timing pushes all day long.
Well and he is right? What's your point?
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On November 10 2011 07:05 Antares777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 06:52 Roggay wrote:On November 10 2011 06:36 Antares777 wrote:Ok. Uh... congrats to the winners I guess? I'm satisfied with most of the finalists. Cloud Kingdom, not only is the name of the map a consonantal alliteration and therefore sounds awesome, the map itself is awesome. I can't really delve into all of this right now because I'm a bit beside myself at some of the other decisions. Daggoth Crater is another one of the good choices. I'm not quite sure why some of the gameplay changes were made from Korhal Compound. I personally dislike lava title sets and thought that the Korhal textured one was much more appealing aesthetically. Still, it's a good map gameplay-wise, which is obviously more important. I'm happy that Burning Altar made it in. Ohana and Twilight Peaks on the fence about. I haven't tested them myself, so I can't say much. There are some experimental things about the maps which make me feel uneasy about them. Anyways, congratulations. Haven's Lagoon is... terrible? I'm trying really hard to be nice here. Firstly, the map is extremely open. It's like so open that if you are not Zerg you might as well GG at the start. Zerg can always expand away from his opponent and the chokes are nonexistent. I think that the people judging the maps wanted to go for a wide variety of symmetries, and that is really the only reason I can see how it was chosen. I would have personally picked any other map over this one. Seriously. Sanctuary I feel is a solid standard map, though I find it a little bit boring. Was the only reason this was picked over other, better maps because it was a three player map? I mean no offense to Grebliv, the map is clearly a solid map, I just feel that there were better ones that were submitted. Alysaar Deluge, where are you? Why wasn't that map picked? Seriously? Also, timetwister22, you made Haven's Lagoon correct? Are all these people supporting your map because they are your friends or because they think that Haven's Lagoon is a good map? I just cannot fathom why everyone thinks that map is good. I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm willing to give feedback on it and help you improve it if you want, but... meh I just don't like it right now.  Hey, how about you read the OP before bullshitting around like that? Haven's Lagoon was chosen because the testers really liked to play on it, i think it was stated multiple times. Also, why would you attack timetwister22 like that, are you THAT bitter that his map made it through? This isn't an attack on the map maker. It's an attack on the judges.
"Also, timetwister22, you made Haven's Lagoon correct? Are all these people supporting your map because they are your friends or because they think that Haven's Lagoon is a good map?"
Yea right.
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On November 10 2011 05:09 FlopTurnReaver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:26 chuky500 wrote:FlopTurnReaver you seemed pissed by what i said. Creative doesn't mean wicked. On the ladder the majority of games only go to 2 or 3 bases and the majority of engagements happen close to players bases not in the middle of the map. That's why the layout of the bases matter a lot and matters more than how the middle of the map is laid out. If you look at the 7 finalists, appart from Haven's Lagoon they all have the same 3 base layout : - a big main - a tiny natural - a ramp between them - a 3rd expansion touching the natural And this is also the case with Motm, in Motm 9 all finalists also had this overused layout. Say this is "BS","plain stupid", that I make "myself look silly" but it's a fact, mapping contests pick maps that are very conservative. Now you ask me why people like Metalopolis ? The lay out of the first 3 bases is unique. How hard is it to understand maps will play the same if bases are the same ? Well yes I get pissed when I read the same comments I already had to endure 2 months ago because people wanted to see creativity over balance :/ And yes I agree that most of the base layouts these days are the same. Frankly the reason for this is that it's the only chance to have a rather close 3rd base on either side of the natural. If you don't do that you'll have all the Zergs crying imba imba. The reason why Haven's Lagoon doesn't use this layout obviously is because you can only expand in one direction, due to the reflective symmetry used. Btw. the first of your 3 points that are the same on all the maps, that's just what makes most sense, everything else would just screw up gameplay as we know it or waste space. So to wrap up, as I already said in the MotM thread, I'm all for innovative mapmaking and original features, but you just can't take too big steps or you'll overstrain a whole bunch of people. EDIT: To clear up a little bit something about the issue mapmakers have with Haven's Lagoon, it's not only the bad looks of it, it's also that there are some kinda noobish flaws in it and the map beeing pretty much a conversion of a BW map. So what every mapmaker thinks is that he could've done the same thing in 1-2 hours but instead went with thinking about a new concept and spending hours with texturing/doodading etc. I guess you could compare that with a composer for classic music and Kesha. Yeah, that's actually the best comparison anyone has ever made about anything. 
If you want to be successful in our modern music industry, you'd go with classical? That's a horrible analogy. Who cares how brilliant a map is if people don't want to play on it.
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I think the main criteria you had to pass was having lots of ramps in the map. Similar to the Blizzard process with rocks, instead they had to use ramps, probably not to get sued or something xD
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On November 10 2011 07:02 TedJustice wrote:
It's kind of a shame Blizzard won't implement any of these without adding gold minerals. They seem dead set on having gold minerals in every map.
Very nice looking maps though.
You are kind of bashing Blizzard just for the sake of bashing Blizzard... They have made numerous maps without gold expansions - in the current ladder pool, at least Nerazim Crypt, Shakuras Plateau and Tal'Darim Altar come to mind.
If there is one organization that is holding extreme positions on the topic, it's the GSL, with the removal of all gold minerals in their most recent map pool.
Also, Haven's Lagoon has one gold base in the farthest position (similar to Scrap Station in that regard).
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These look awesome. Can't wait to play them.
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On November 10 2011 06:36 Antares777 wrote:
Haven's Lagoon is... terrible? I'm trying really hard to be nice here. Firstly, the map is extremely open. It's like so open that if you are not Zerg you might as well GG at the start. Zerg can always expand away from his opponent and the chokes are nonexistent. I think that the people judging the maps wanted to go for a wide variety of symmetries, and that is really the only reason I can see how it was chosen. I would have personally picked any other map over this one. Seriously.
Also, timetwister22, you made Haven's Lagoon correct? Are all these people supporting your map because they are your friends or because they think that Haven's Lagoon is a good map? I just cannot fathom why everyone thinks that map is good. I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm willing to give feedback on it and help you improve it if you want, but... meh I just don't like it right now.
To be honest, I find it sort of dumb to criticize a map given only having a top-down picture showed without any games behind the statement. I could look at Metalopolis and say that it looks stupid because it doesn't use the normal three expansion layout that a lot of other maps use, but it would be really unfair without any games played supporting my statement. And it wouldn't help me that I'm just a bronze player and probably do a lot of dumb mistakes and errors of judgement regarding positioning and moving.
And when you say that you're attacking the judges but personally referencing timetwister22 in your post and asking him why people like his map, and even going as far as questioning the validity of people actually giving it praise? Come on. You do not have to be a genius to understand that people genuinely might like the map, not because they are friends of him, but because the map is different from others and is fun to play. It's even stated in the OP that the testers very much agreed that it was on of the most enjoyable maps to play on.
edit: accidentally some words in there... and some spelling errors
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All maps seem to be balanced, but Haven's Lagoon, Ohana and Sanctuary, in no particular order, seem like the most fun to play maps. I would really love to see one (or all) of them being put in the ladder map pool.
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Burning Altar & Haven's Lagoon !!! go man go!!!
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I liked Daggoth Crater better when it used the Korhal tile set and was called Korhal Compound, lava maps are just so lame and repetitive. Nothing else puts me to sleep faster. Even jungle maps are more interesting, despite being even more repetitive, because they are a lot brighter and colorful instead of GRIMDARKNESS.
+ Show Spoiler +Look over there, fire! What do you know, there is even more fire over here! Shit, is that more fire I see over there? No way, this fire is more fiery than the last bit of fire!
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Haven's Lagoon looks something that would be interesting to see games on!
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On November 10 2011 07:07 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:05 Antares777 wrote:On November 10 2011 06:52 Roggay wrote:On November 10 2011 06:36 Antares777 wrote:Ok. Uh... congrats to the winners I guess? I'm satisfied with most of the finalists. Cloud Kingdom, not only is the name of the map a consonantal alliteration and therefore sounds awesome, the map itself is awesome. I can't really delve into all of this right now because I'm a bit beside myself at some of the other decisions. Daggoth Crater is another one of the good choices. I'm not quite sure why some of the gameplay changes were made from Korhal Compound. I personally dislike lava title sets and thought that the Korhal textured one was much more appealing aesthetically. Still, it's a good map gameplay-wise, which is obviously more important. I'm happy that Burning Altar made it in. Ohana and Twilight Peaks on the fence about. I haven't tested them myself, so I can't say much. There are some experimental things about the maps which make me feel uneasy about them. Anyways, congratulations. Haven's Lagoon is... terrible? I'm trying really hard to be nice here. Firstly, the map is extremely open. It's like so open that if you are not Zerg you might as well GG at the start. Zerg can always expand away from his opponent and the chokes are nonexistent. I think that the people judging the maps wanted to go for a wide variety of symmetries, and that is really the only reason I can see how it was chosen. I would have personally picked any other map over this one. Seriously. Sanctuary I feel is a solid standard map, though I find it a little bit boring. Was the only reason this was picked over other, better maps because it was a three player map? I mean no offense to Grebliv, the map is clearly a solid map, I just feel that there were better ones that were submitted. Alysaar Deluge, where are you? Why wasn't that map picked? Seriously? Also, timetwister22, you made Haven's Lagoon correct? Are all these people supporting your map because they are your friends or because they think that Haven's Lagoon is a good map? I just cannot fathom why everyone thinks that map is good. I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm willing to give feedback on it and help you improve it if you want, but... meh I just don't like it right now. Hey, how about you read the OP before bullshitting around like that? Haven's Lagoon was chosen because the testers really liked to play on it, i think it was stated multiple times. Also, why would you attack timetwister22 like that, are you THAT bitter that his map made it through? This isn't an attack on the map maker. It's an attack on the judges. "Also, timetwister22, you made Haven's Lagoon correct? Are all these people supporting your map because they are your friends or because they think that Haven's Lagoon is a good map?" Yea right.
Seems like a legit question to me. A good number of them have a low post count and are hardly saying anything except stuff like "oh this map is cool", and then say nothing about why it's cool. I've never seen any of them make any maps themselves and don't really know anything about their balance knowledge. For all I know the seem like Bronze level players with a mediocre understanding of balance at the professional level.
Anyway, why are you attacking me? I was voicing my opinion on the map. It's too open. Protoss cannot get a third against Zerg or even expand aggressively. That is what I, and many others, think about the map. I certainly read the OP. In fact, the "facts" that are listed for Haven's Lagoon are filled with bullshit.
- Map increases in height as more and more expansions are taken (to be honest I'm not even sure what this means)
- Map emphasises exploiting the height differences to gain an advantage (hardly; the advantage is practically nonexistent because of the huge ramps)
- Rewards players for controlling their units well and taking slightly longer paths for better position (hardly, again for the same reason)
- Allows for a variety of playstyles including air and harass based play due to the large space between mains (cool, you can do air harass, you can do that on any map. This map does not allow a lot of aggressive builds due to the size and symmetry, with the expansions being placed away from your opponent)
- One of the most enjoyed maps by playtesters (I can't argue this; that is the opinion of the playtesters. I may disagree with it, but that's it)
Roggay, just try to say what I've said about balance is incorrect. If you think it is, then you do not have a very high understanding of balance. I really do not care how many people enjoyed playing on the map. Balance > everything else when it comes to map making. If you're map is not somewhat balanced, then it is worthless to the community.
Zerg can expand away from his opponent until he's on at least four bases. The average openness is too high for balanced games at the highest level. Terran and Protoss cannot expand aggressively whatsoever. I have nothing wrong with timetwister. I'd love to help him improve his map design. My main issue is that the judges picked his map. This I completely do not understand. The community either better, more experienced judges next time.
Now before you lash out at me for saying inexperienced, I'm going to say that Nightmarjoo makes BW maps, not SCII maps. They are very different. Plexa I believe has only made one map, a Battle Royal remake.
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On November 10 2011 08:22 Antares777 wrote:
Seems like a legit question to me. A good number of them have a low post count and are hardly saying anything except stuff like "oh this map is cool", and then say nothing about why it's cool. I've never seen any of them make any maps themselves and don't really know anything about their balance knowledge. For all I know the seem like Bronze level players with a mediocre understanding of balance at the professional level.
I'm sure the low post count users have absolutely nothing to do with a thread on Reddit/sc that's been a top 5 post all day.....
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On November 10 2011 07:42 sondrizzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 06:36 Antares777 wrote:
Haven's Lagoon is... terrible? I'm trying really hard to be nice here. Firstly, the map is extremely open. It's like so open that if you are not Zerg you might as well GG at the start. Zerg can always expand away from his opponent and the chokes are nonexistent. I think that the people judging the maps wanted to go for a wide variety of symmetries, and that is really the only reason I can see how it was chosen. I would have personally picked any other map over this one. Seriously.
Also, timetwister22, you made Haven's Lagoon correct? Are all these people supporting your map because they are your friends or because they think that Haven's Lagoon is a good map? I just cannot fathom why everyone thinks that map is good. I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm willing to give feedback on it and help you improve it if you want, but... meh I just don't like it right now.
To be honest, I find it sort of dumb to criticize a map given only having a top-down picture showed without any games behind the statement. I could look at Metalopolis and say that it looks stupid because it doesn't use the normal three expansion layout that a lot of other maps use, but it would be really unfair without any games played supporting my statement. And it wouldn't help me that I'm just a bronze player and probably do a lot of dumb mistakes and errors of judgement regarding positioning and moving. And when you say that you're attacking the judges but personally referencing timetwister22 in your post and asking him why people like his map, and even going as far as questioning the validity of people actually giving it praise? Come on. You do not have to be a genius to understand that people genuinely might like the map, not because they are friends of him, but because the map is different from others and is fun to play. It's even stated in the OP that the testers very much agreed that it was on of the most enjoyable maps to play on. edit: accidentally some words in there... and some spelling errors
I can understand that some people may like the map. I'm perfectly aware that there are people in this world who do not care about balance or are too blind to see it. You find it dumb to criticize a map when you're only given a top down image? Well, me too! Guess what else I think? That defending a map given only a top down image is equally stupid. I would have been more helpful, but there are no analyzer images! There's no map thread! There's no description or anything anywhere! I can't currently go on SCII, and believe me when I tell you that I'm not going on it just to see one person's map, I will certainly use what is given, which is not much.
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On November 10 2011 08:26 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:22 Antares777 wrote:
Seems like a legit question to me. A good number of them have a low post count and are hardly saying anything except stuff like "oh this map is cool", and then say nothing about why it's cool. I've never seen any of them make any maps themselves and don't really know anything about their balance knowledge. For all I know the seem like Bronze level players with a mediocre understanding of balance at the professional level. I'm sure the low post count users have absolutely nothing to do with a thread on Reddit/sc that';s been a Top 5 post all day.....
You're right, I was judging people there. Sorry. My main point is that they say they like it, don't post anything else, no analysis, no reason, no nothing. Just "cool map bro".
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On November 10 2011 06:52 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 06:36 Antares777 wrote:Ok. Uh... congrats to the winners I guess? I'm satisfied with most of the finalists. Cloud Kingdom, not only is the name of the map a consonantal alliteration and therefore sounds awesome, the map itself is awesome. I can't really delve into all of this right now because I'm a bit beside myself at some of the other decisions. Daggoth Crater is another one of the good choices. I'm not quite sure why some of the gameplay changes were made from Korhal Compound. I personally dislike lava title sets and thought that the Korhal textured one was much more appealing aesthetically. Still, it's a good map gameplay-wise, which is obviously more important. I'm happy that Burning Altar made it in. Ohana and Twilight Peaks on the fence about. I haven't tested them myself, so I can't say much. There are some experimental things about the maps which make me feel uneasy about them. Anyways, congratulations. Haven's Lagoon is... terrible? I'm trying really hard to be nice here. Firstly, the map is extremely open. It's like so open that if you are not Zerg you might as well GG at the start. Zerg can always expand away from his opponent and the chokes are nonexistent. I think that the people judging the maps wanted to go for a wide variety of symmetries, and that is really the only reason I can see how it was chosen. I would have personally picked any other map over this one. Seriously. Sanctuary I feel is a solid standard map, though I find it a little bit boring. Was the only reason this was picked over other, better maps because it was a three player map? I mean no offense to Grebliv, the map is clearly a solid map, I just feel that there were better ones that were submitted. Alysaar Deluge, where are you? Why wasn't that map picked? Seriously? Also, timetwister22, you made Haven's Lagoon correct? Are all these people supporting your map because they are your friends or because they think that Haven's Lagoon is a good map? I just cannot fathom why everyone thinks that map is good. I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm willing to give feedback on it and help you improve it if you want, but... meh I just don't like it right now. Hey, how about you read the OP before bullshitting around like that? Haven's Lagoon was chosen because the testers really liked to play on it, i think it was stated multiple times. Also, why would you attack timetwister22 like that, are you THAT bitter that his map made it through?
I'd like to know who tested the maps. If it's just the judges then whatever.. their opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's.
I personally can't think of a single reason why Haven's Lagoon was chosen as a finalist. It's not a good map, plain and simple - it's not even fun to play on in my opinion.
But to be honest, I don't think there's a single map of the finalists I'd actually want to play over and over in an official map pool. I'm not sure what I was expecting, or if I was expecting anything at all, but I'm not crazy about any of these maps. At all. Did no Korean map makers enter a submission?
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Congratulations to all of the finalists!
I know a lot of people are upset since they put many hours into mapmaking yet their maps weren't chosen. I'd just like to say that blaming the contest organizers isn't fair because they put almost the same amount of time into making this the best tournament possible for the community.
[edit]
I will be making major texture and doodad improvements to Daggoth Crater before the end of the contest so it can look nicer!
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Hmm, this whole affair is a bit of an epiphany for me.
I'm sure people remember the farce that was the cloud of 4-spawn rotational maps with super similar main/nat/third layouts a couple of months ago. I think we should worry less about getting perfect balance right away and get solid concepts that are just reasonable.
Bel'shir beach was a map that initially had terrible balance and that was pretty evident from the start, but because everyone wanted to try it it saw a lot of feedback and has been moulded into a much more solid map.
Do people remember when Dustin Browder said that if the development teams ever stopped to think about what they were implementing in HotS, they would add nothing?
I get a very similar vibe when I see so many maps have the same main/nat/third layout. And again when I look at the amount of 4spawn rotational maps we saw in the last few months.
Don't get me wrong, I love Sanctuarium, Twilight Peaks, Burning Altar, and loads of others. But there's no way anyone would want a map pool with more than a couple of them. Even if they have some very different strengths and weaknesses, they're going to get old fast.
But now I'm feeling that it's just a little foolish to try and get a map "perfectly balanced" before getting it involved with the community. How are community players going to want to test one map over the other if everyone keeps getting frustrated with aspects of a map and reverting to what already works? Half the reason people like to see new maps is because they're different and diverse. Balance is the second half of that, and is a mess as it is with the changing state of the game.
EDIT:
Awesome, Monitor. I really look forward to seeing what that map can do!
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On November 10 2011 08:40 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 06:52 Roggay wrote:
Hey, how about you read the OP before bullshitting around like that? Haven's Lagoon was chosen because the testers really liked to play on it, i think it was stated multiple times.
Also, why would you attack timetwister22 like that, are you THAT bitter that his map made it through? I'd like to know who tested the maps. If it's just the judges then whatever.. their opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's. I personally can't think of a single reason why Haven's Lagoon was chosen as a finalist. It's not a good map, plain and simple - it's not even fun to play on in my opinion. But to be honest, I don't think there's a single map of the finalists I'd actually want to play over and over in an official map pool. I'm not sure what I was expecting, or if I was expecting anything at all, but I'm not crazy about any of these maps. At all. Did no Korean map makers enter a submission?
read the op man...
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EPT
