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[M] (4) Burning Altar 1.1 by Samro225am (EU) - (unfixed TLMC Burning Altar 1.0 on US, EU, SEA)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YNB3W.jpg)
Finalist in TL Map-Making Contest!
Introduced to TPW Mappool February 1st 2012
Information
spawns: 4
size: 148x148
bases: 12regular
n2n: 105/141AU (close/cross)
+ Show Spoiler [concept] +simplel rotational map with a unique centre, that incorporate the feature of four three-way highrounds circling the actual centre. My idea was also used by lefix in Daedalus. here this idea is blend into the map with the highround-connecting paths blocked by deytructable rocks, making them important to attack and defend your third.
+ Show Spoiler [changelog] +v0.4: wide ramps are only triple, not quadruple
v0.5: moved thirds away from main, deleted alt-entrance at nat to make it easier to defend
v0.6: nat choke wallable with three 3x3 building completly
v0.7: moved XWT more to outsides, took away losb around tower, now easier to cross centre unseen and easier and more important to keep one's own tower.
v0.8 moved XWT again, this time in a less agressive position. they help to scout in order to defend or attack the centre and do not hurt thirds that much
v.0.9 TLMC entry
v1.0 more FPS on slow systems, also changed Decal Colors and fog settings > will be re-submitted for TLMC
v1.1 adjusted drop pods and layout on third bases; slightly bigger mains; tanks drops and sieges have smaller impact on the game, but are possible; ledges can no longer be abused as they only serve as steps into the mains
> New map: TPW Burning Altar
Overview
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AYDGs.jpg)
Images
(always even nicer in game)
+ Show Spoiler +Main ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ru8ml.jpg) Natural ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CNwMl.jpg) Third (clockwise) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AfTbK.jpg) Third (counterclockwise) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xU07U.jpg) Towers and Rocks ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v1N22.jpg)
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Which are the 2 spawns? It looks suspiciously like a 4-spawn map from where I'm sitting... it looks cool, but it looks like a 4-spawn map. Unless you mean to imply it's meant for 2-player, with forced cross spawns.
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Solid layout with all the little features done correctly imo.
Xel'Naga towers are where they belong, on the highground, so they don't negate highground/lowground! Very interesting middle overall with nice rock placement!
Also, lowground harrass cliffs are awesome^^
Aesthetics are refreshing and great execution as always 
Only concern I have is that thirds are a bit far away and open for Protoss.
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I dont like that the thirds are basically on the doorstep of your opponents natural in some spawn positions. Other than that its very well done.
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On October 31 2011 13:37 MisfortuneS Ghost wrote:
Which are the 2 spawns? It looks suspiciously like a 4-spawn map from where I'm sitting... it looks cool, but it looks like a 4-spawn map. Unless you mean to imply it's meant for 2-player, with forced cross spawns.
this is a 4spawn map meant to be played by 2 players.
i made a mistake when making the title for the thread. not much sleep a 
also: no forced spawns or anything like that. the two crosspoistition really have to be different in my opinion to make a 4-2/2in1 map worth it. forced spawns on a 4spawn map is a solution in some cases, but only because game/m,ap is broken in a way and no longer fitting the game is intended to be.
On October 31 2011 20:11 Ragoo wrote:Solid layout with all the little features done correctly imo. Xel'Naga towers are where they belong, on the highground, so they don't negate highground/lowground! Very interesting middle overall with nice rock placement! Also, lowground harrass cliffs are awesome^^ Aesthetics are refreshing and great execution as always Only concern I have is that thirds are a bit far away and open for Protoss.
thanks for the nice comment (greart execution as always). indeed the thirds are in an open area, but the chokes are a double and a triple ramp, hence a choke you can work with. players have to pick there fights and the locations were they meet. also note that the third when expanding away makes you go the long way through the middle and then turn, so plenty of time to react accordingly when scouted (four towers help you to do so).
I wanted the middle to be important and because of this setup - which is unique afaik (until lefix copied it thanks making this setup popular!) - the middle is not occupied by one player, but an area of dynamics and constant transfer. it is something you control by scouting or move through, not by standing around exclusivly.
so the whole map layout is more about the chokes onto these four connecting plateaus than the ultimate openness of the thirds.
On October 31 2011 20:27 Megakenny wrote:
I dont like that the thirds are basically on the doorstep of your opponents natural in some spawn positions. Other than that its very well done.
you can always expand away! the third between two close spawns is in the middle of two armies guarding their nats. Some aggressive players might take it, and it sure helps spawning clockwise from your opponent This is not perfecty balanced obviously, but there are similar or worse imbalances found on many maps everybofy lives with (antiga shipyard).
also when it prooves to be an imbalance it can be fixed by moving the third back and a bit more to the nat than the other main. i just did not have the time for the TLMC to do so sadly.
i look forward to more feedback, as i plan to incorporate the centre for a 16base and a crazy 20base map =D
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I really like how the Xel'naga Tower platforms are separated from the natural ground by the destructible rocks, it's a very creative touch. The proportions are very well put out, the only thing you have to watch now is chokes vs. openness in some areas. Testing is really the only way to find them.
Good job on this map, it's very unique!
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United States10107 Posts
really like this map, though may be too chokey. bases look very similar to tal'darim altar without the 4ths.
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v0.5: moved thirds away from main, deleted alt-entrance at nat to make it easier to defend
+ new images in OP
(it is not really that chokey btw. hope to get it to US, soon, so you can play, too)
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The aesthetics on this map look amazing.
how much vision of the do the watchtowers provide on the outer routes? It seems like in a close spawn game, one player will have easier access to the tower until the rocks are destroyed.
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On November 05 2011 10:18 Namrufus wrote:
The aesthetics on this map look amazing.
how much vision of the do the watchtowers provide on the outer routes? It seems like in a close spawn game, one player will have easier access to the tower until the rocks are destroyed.
XWT spot one half of each ramp down to the thirds and half of the ramp down to the central junction!
thanks for the praise for gfx
edit: i also tried out more agressive placements, like tower spots half of nat choke, nothing at the ramp between nat and clockwise third but the whole ramp betweem nat and counterclockwise third. it is much more usefull, but overpowered in a way. so i think i stick with this tower setup, that mainly helps to spot army movements in the centre and normnally sees each player taking two towers in mid-/late-game
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v0.6:
nat choke wallable with three 3x3 building completly
edit:
v0.7
moved XWT more to outsides, took away losb around tower, now easier to cross centre unseen and easier and more important to keep one's own tower
(images updates in OP)
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I like the changes. The thirds are still a little bit far away, but that will should not affect balance, just the way the game is played. I'm curious, did you alter the lighting? It looks a bit red O_o I can't tell if it's just the lava.
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I am slowly working my way to a more definitive version:
v0.8 moved XWT again, this time in a less agressive position. and i hope it will stay here, cause i really like what it does now:
they help to scout in order to defend or attack the centre and do not hurt thirds that much. Also they now spot the complete path of the destructable rocks nearby and the half of both ramps between nat and ccw third and central lowground. The path between nat and cw third (of the cw position) is no longer seen - thanks zelniq and Plexa for suggesting a more conservative and defensive placement.
you can see it here:
+ Show Spoiler [towers] +
(also updated OP with new images)
On November 08 2011 09:15 Antares777 wrote:
I like the changes. The thirds are still a little bit far away, but that will should not affect balance, just the way the game is played. I'm curious, did you alter the lighting? It looks a bit red O_o I can't tell if it's just the lava.
on controlling three (or four) bases:
indeed thirds are not super close, but when you expand away in close position the base can still be controlled - you just have to scout and you can not wall behind three bases.
The way the layout works the better your map control the longer the path becomes that your opponent would have to take to get to your bases. Intersting position for this is the highround from the next XWT going straight to your fourth when in ccw position and the circle like pathwork between your nat, the next XWT, the middle lowground and the DRs when in cw position)
regarding color:
i had to fake fog color because the editor does not show it when exporting the overview... so the color is correct in the screenshots, but not in the overview. Lava indeed is orange, not red, because i used orange fog
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I really like this map. Have you considered slightly sinking the protoss decals by reducing their height to make them a little less bright. Sinking them 0.1 or 0.2 more would make them blend in a lot better with the ground in my opinion. Right now they can be a little in your face.
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Awesome map but I gotta say the purple decals look really bad lol.
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purple is the new blue! i thought one might enjoy some more color with contarsts like the orange-green-purple that I used in this map.
seems like the audience might enjoy the same-same we already know so well?
IPL finalists all are blue/grey/green 
regarding the layout and TLMC reception:
the map is a finalists, that shows its balance and hardcore-gameplay-first-approach. still it seems people dislike it for not being a 2spawn map, that certainly gives more options for different bases. in the end this is one of the best uses of destructable rocks (yeah, I have to admit i like what I came up with a lot tbh) ever and a really different approach on designing the middle. So I kind of blame the amount of 16base rotational maps we have seen lately that people are no longer fond of 4spawn maps. Still this is a very straight forward, clean and minimalistic design and I hope it gets a chance to proove.
until then: few aeshetical changes to come, but this layout is final unless gameplay problems should occur.
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This map is my favorite (by far) of the TLMC finalists. The center is creative, there is little if any positional imbalance (in fact I almost prefer close spawns to cross spawns on this map...) and the texturing with the lava is creative and bright. I wish this map got more attention because I like it a lot. =D
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On November 13 2011 09:16 RumbleBadger wrote:
This map is my favorite (by far) of the TLMC finalists. The center is creative, there is little if any positional imbalance (in fact I almost prefer close spawns to cross spawns on this map...) and the texturing with the lava is creative and bright. I wish this map got more attention because I like it a lot. =D
Thanks, and i wish and hope it will get more attention with the actual tournament. It plays really well and is balanced. Third looks further away than it feels in-game.
anyway, i made an update to this map:
Changes 1.0
Gameplay - non
Performance - less FPS drop in border region close to nat
Visuals - more simplifing of the visual theme and color range (orange decals, less glow, a tad more fog)
(see OP for images)
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remove those ledges above naturals. terran siege tank drops imba
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On December 11 2011 04:20 JimSocks wrote:
remove those ledges above naturals. terran siege tank drops imba
It was on the third, and yes it is a very abusive position for terrans.
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On December 11 2011 04:20 JimSocks wrote:
remove those ledges above naturals. terran siege tank drops imba
I think people specifically look for spots that siege tanks could fucking own from and don't put anymore thought into it. I'm sure if Shakuras Plateau was made here on TL, everyone would whine about the four raised cliffs in the center of the map, complaining that Terran could drop tanks and lock down the center of the map.
How many times has that ever happened? 20?
How many times has it not ended in a bunch of dead siege tanks? 1? 2?
How many Terrans would be willing to drop siege tanks onto the lower ground behind someone's natural, where most or all of the opposing forces are garrisoned at about the time your siege tech is finishing. I'd reckon between stalkers being the primary Protoss fighting force, and overlords being placed to scout drops like that,Terran would have a lot of trouble just getting the tanks to land, never mind keeping them there unscathed.
If that land is even pathable.
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On December 11 2011 04:58 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 04:20 JimSocks wrote:
remove those ledges above naturals. terran siege tank drops imba I think people specifically look for spots that siege tanks could fucking own from and don't put anymore thought into it. I'm sure if Shakuras Plateau was made here on TL, everyone would whine about the four raised cliffs in the center of the map, complaining that Terran could drop tanks and lock down the center of the map. How many times has that ever happened? 20? How many times has it not ended in a bunch of dead siege tanks? 1? 2? How many Terrans would be willing to drop siege tanks onto the lower ground behind someone's natural, where most or all of the opposing forces are garrisoned at about the time your siege tech is finishing. I'd reckon between stalkers being the primary Protoss fighting force, and overlords being placed to scout drops like that,Terran would have a lot of trouble just getting the tanks to land, never mind keeping them there unscathed. If that land is even pathable.
Destiny vs. Noblesse would like to disagree with you.
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yeah. the tank place is crazzy. besides that . awsome map
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On December 11 2011 05:47 Seiferz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 04:58 Chargelot wrote:On December 11 2011 04:20 JimSocks wrote:
remove those ledges above naturals. terran siege tank drops imba I think people specifically look for spots that siege tanks could fucking own from and don't put anymore thought into it. I'm sure if Shakuras Plateau was made here on TL, everyone would whine about the four raised cliffs in the center of the map, complaining that Terran could drop tanks and lock down the center of the map. How many times has that ever happened? 20? How many times has it not ended in a bunch of dead siege tanks? 1? 2? How many Terrans would be willing to drop siege tanks onto the lower ground behind someone's natural, where most or all of the opposing forces are garrisoned at about the time your siege tech is finishing. I'd reckon between stalkers being the primary Protoss fighting force, and overlords being placed to scout drops like that,Terran would have a lot of trouble just getting the tanks to land, never mind keeping them there unscathed. If that land is even pathable. Destiny vs. Noblesse would like to disagree with you.
If that game is representative of 100% of the games played on the map, then yes, it disagrees with me.
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personally, i think a dropable highrgound at the third is okay. it would be a different story if it was at the natural, but a zerg on 3base should have the means to defend a tank drop. especially when we move on to a point where the players actually know the map and expect it.
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On December 11 2011 05:47 Seiferz wrote:
Destiny vs. Noblesse would like to disagree with you.
while I see your point, this was a specific situation: the map is new to everyone and (again!) it is the terran who found a way to exploi first ...
Sure I now have to read a lot of criticism and rightly so. I really want to thank you guys for showing up here in this part of the TL forums and state your opinion on the map. My first reply has to be, yes, you are right, this can be exploited, but this does not make the map terran favoured yet. I will have to watch the specific situations as soon as I get the VODs.
The layout, especially on cross position, does not favour mech at all. The map has many alternative path and while the centre can be controlled easily with controlling several towers, it still needs scouting, good positioning and micro. so i am unsure if a dropable third is that dangerous. But in my opinion the main problem is not a dropable cliff per se, but that the drop-ability varies with the spawn-setups. Maybe I even have to add a second dropable highround to the other side of each third, but then again make sure that the nat cannot be tank-dropped at all. This would allow Fast expansion with only lings and later players have to make sure they can defend a drop, which is reasonable on third.
edit: i am working on it and testing a few alternatives regarding those drops.
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I have to say, this map has been growing on me quite a bit. The layout is solid, but a little bit more interesting, and is just beautiful in game. I also like how the main/nat feel small-ish, but not cramped. I would really like seeing this on the ladder, good luck!
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I love this map.
I love it because it doesn't need force cross positions. I see people complaining that in certain positions the 3rd is in the attack pathway. example being one bottom right and one bottom left. but it seems impossible to them that the guy in bottom left could take the expansion above his corner. If I had more time I'd get the map and doodle on it to show that even in those positions, the defender has a huge advantage moving between those two bases, while the attacker has very long attack pathways. It's brilliant and an example of the better thinking we need in map making these days. Even if they break the rocks hey have to walk right in front of your natural, which would be in the middle of your base. It forces players to keep good scouting information and responding accordingly, but still with the right information the defender has complete advantage.
I'm so tired of these only two possible spawn locations. A map stays fresh by having the possibility of different types of games unfolding on it depending on spawn locations.
i love this map
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On December 12 2011 03:44 Bio-Leera wrote:
I love this map.
I love it because it doesn't need force cross positions. I see people complaining that in certain positions the 3rd is in the attack pathway. example being one bottom right and one bottom left. but it seems impossible to them that the guy in bottom left could take the expansion above his corner. If I had more time I'd get the map and doodle on it to show that even in those positions, the defender has a huge advantage moving between those two bases, while the attacker has very long attack pathways. It's brilliant and an example of the better thinking we need in map making these days. Even if they break the rocks hey have to walk right in front of your natural, which would be in the middle of your base. It forces players to keep good scouting information and responding accordingly, but still with the right information the defender has complete advantage.
I'm so tired of these only two possible spawn locations. A map stays fresh by having the possibility of different types of games unfolding on it depending on spawn locations.
i love this map
thank you very much. this is what i had in mind when the map was designed. especially middle terrain that keeps you on yopur toes wheater you are in the lead or not. you need the scouting information to use the terrain in your favour.
edit: regarding the drop issue - the nat is made defendable by queens (reach=3), need some more thinking about third being defendavle with roaches with our without highground vision. have to figure that out. expect an even more balanced map.
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On December 12 2011 04:27 Samro225am wrote:
edit: regarding the drop issue - the nat is made defendable by queens (reach=3), need some more thinking about third being defendavle with roaches with our without highground vision. have to figure that out. expect an even more balanced map.
Just played another game on it, and I noticed the edges of some pieces of water sticking out here and there. They're simple to fix, but look unpolished. I suppose you can work this into your next update as well. If it's fixed in your version but not the TLMC one, never mind. Just something I spotted.
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i am working on a general update (balance tweak, pathing, visual things)
First and foremost I adress the tank drop issue. For me it is important to conserve tank drop options, but do not make it imba in any way.
most important part is the drop pod. now it is easily defendable with two spinecrawler OR two queens + spinecrawler:
+ Show Spoiler +
the area of hit-able area in the main is also drastically decreased in order to make sure there won't be anything like Alive's cliff tank-drop abuse. Marines signify the tank's reach:
+ Show Spoiler +
please note that Reapers and Colossi are still able to walk up the main's cliffs.
these images show a wip. actual changes in v1.1 are different
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I really like this map, good job
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On December 16 2011 07:26 Samro225am wrote:i am working on a general update (balance tweak, pathing, visual things) First and foremost I adress the tank drop issue. For me it is important to conserve tank drop options, but do not make it imba in any way. most important part is the drop pod. now it is easily defendable with two spinecrawler OR two queens + spinecrawler: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0owvD.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/15bPX.jpg) the area of hit-able area in the main is also drastically decreased in order to make sure there won't be anything like Alive's cliff tank-drop abuse. Marines signify the tank's reach: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8NQZ8.jpg) please note that Reapers and Colossi are still able to walk up the main's cliffs.
As a zerg player, I find this better than Lost Temple ridiculous siege position on the cliff beside the natural. But, although it is easily defended by spines and queens. That tank line can still siege the 3rd base and the main if there is marine support.
I got not much to say about this map except about that Destiny vs Noblesse game.It was painful to watch though how Noblesse exploit those positions.However,we still cant justify whether it is abusive or not since it is not yet tested extensively by many pro players.
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v1.1
- adjusted drop pods and layout on third bases, no more highround above minerals (except mains)
- slightly bigger mains
- tanks drops and sieges have smaller impact on the game, but are possible; ledges can no longer be abused as they only serve as steps into the mains
+ Show Spoiler [new third] +
+ Show Spoiler [new overview] +
have fun!
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One could argue that thirds are too far away in this layout, and would cause 2 base all-ins in most games. I'm not sure, beacuse you expand away in close, have many towers and a strong position outside the nat in cross. What do you think?
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Can we please drop tal'darim altar from the map pool and put this in its place? its much better.
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I agree with u Fish, I find this somehow much more attractive than Tal'darim. Send it to Blizzard OP.
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On February 29 2012 05:27 HyDrA_solic wrote:
I agree with u Fish, I find this somehow much more attractive than Tal'darim. Send it to Blizzard OP.
While I also really like this map, the thirds are a little far. It makes toss hard to play especially, resulting in tons of 2 base all-ins. Also, tal'darim is actually the most balanced ladder map according to the playhem daily. Nearly 50% exactly in all matchups.
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On February 29 2012 11:51 RumbleBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:27 HyDrA_solic wrote:
I agree with u Fish, I find this somehow much more attractive than Tal'darim. Send it to Blizzard OP. While I also really like this map, the thirds are a little far. It makes toss hard to play especially, resulting in tons of 2 base all-ins. Also, tal'darim is actually the most balanced ladder map according to the playhem daily. Nearly 50% exactly in all matchups.
I know tal'darim is balanced but quite old ;(
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Although, as I've said, I really like this map, I feel it does neatly demonstrate a principle that makes rotational 12 base maps almost impossible. If you put the 3rd's too close to one player, the map becomes too quadrant-y, which makes going to 4 bases a challenge(Antiga Shipyard comes dangerously close to behaving this way). Make the map smaller, to make an equidistant 3rd nearby both players, and the rush distances suffer. Keep the map large and the 3rds equidistant, and the 3rds are too far away.
Really, the execution of this type of map is awesome, but the basis of a 12 base, 4-player map made it a very nearly unwinnable battle. I love a lot about this map, and the aesthetics are awesome, but you might say it was doomed from the start.
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hey guys, i totally missed the vital discussion going on here. nice (:
i think Blizzard had looked at the map but did not approve it really, nevertheless as the author I still think it is a valid concept. It is not the actual distance to the third base that makes it hard to take third, but the design of the centre that makes it hard to hold(!) third.
there are several people who dismiss 12base rotational maps or rotational maps in general, but I believe both are valid concepts.
I explored the idea of "neutral" third bases in between main/nat and main/nat a bit more in my design for 16base 4 spawn Skartaris (link). while the map also has some problems it is an interesting take.
i will make further iterations on both designs in the coming weeks and hopefully will succeed in giving some more live to rotational maps.
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personally really like this map. I play Protoss and this map is really easy to FFE on.
Furthermore, I love the fact you can choose where to get your third. The amount of different paths available after the destruction of rocks means that zerg have plenty of chances to flank or attack from several directions at once.
Also really like the colour scheme and general design of the map.
Really good job man
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FzGUW.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ipelC.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/W0V2E.jpg)
