(4)Amazon is my most recent map, attempting to make terrain as 'simple' as possible while still being balanced. It uses rotational symmetry, but 3rds are equally distant for all players. While they may look hard to hold, they're fairly easy in all spawn positions.
Currently published on NA and EU as "iCCup Amazon".
One notable feature is the natural. It can be walled using 2 barracks from the CC to ramp, and also 1 supply depo at the narrow choke. This is meant to have an open feel for aggression, but also be quite easy to defend early game. A picute demonstrates below (might need resizing).
hey nice and simple layout... the textures kind of bore me though but it's still better than anything i could make. maybe it's just the tileset. either way good job!
Alright after playing thru it once...I can't really find anything that I would change about it. For all the people talking about textures really need to check it out ingame because it does look a lot nicer. I absolutely LOVE the middle.
I think the tower gives a perfect amount of vision yet there are still plenty of paths to move around.
If anything I'd like to see some more "clutter" with random doodads such as rocks/plants that you are able to walk over/build over. Also maybe add a little bit more flyer space around the whole outside of the map?
Otherwise everything with this map looks great. Keep it up!
On March 08 2011 07:38 SidianTheBard wrote: Are you sure it's uploaded? I can't seem to find it on NA. Maybe blizzard is just being slow, or maybe you accidently made it private? :D
edit: Just popped up for me. I'll edit with input after I've played.
Yah sorry lol, I was having trouble. I thought it was published when I posted the thread, but I guess it wasn't... now it should be though.
Great map, I love the 2 unit wide choke with the normal one. A lot of interesting flanking can happen outside the naturals. How many Creep Tumors does it take to connect the natural to the main?
On March 08 2011 07:51 Antares777 wrote: Great map, I love the 2 unit wide choke with the normal one. A lot of interesting flanking can happen outside the naturals. How many Creep Tumors does it take to connect the natural to the main?
Should be one. By the position of the ramp, you can tell it will have creep from the nat hatchery, which is good times for zergies.
This is so very aesthetically pleasing, major props on that. The layout gives me a touch of nostalgia for BW Lost Temple with those center facing expansions and the focus on the center. I agree with you that getting a 3rd running isn't so bad. If the game can go 4 bases, it gets a lot more stable. If someone loses their 3rd in a push, it looks like that pretty much ends the game. Did you have much testing? Any trends?
I'm struggling to believe you got roomy bases, comfortable expansions, so much interesting neutral terrain, and 4 start locations rotationally balanced all in one 128x128 map. Awesome!
On March 08 2011 07:51 Antares777 wrote: Great map, I love the 2 unit wide choke with the normal one. A lot of interesting flanking can happen outside the naturals. How many Creep Tumors does it take to connect the natural to the main?
It just takes one creep tumor at the moment, but I'm actually looking into making more space between main and nat. Right now its a bit tight on building space between CC and ramp in the main for Terran.
[edit]
Should be one. By the position of the ramp, you can tell it will have creep from the nat hatchery, which is good times for zergies.
This is so very aesthetically pleasing, major props on that. The layout gives me a touch of nostalgia for BW Lost Temple with those center facing expansions and the focus on the center. I agree with you that getting a 3rd running isn't so bad. If the game can go 4 bases, it gets a lot more stable. If someone loses their 3rd in a push, it looks like that pretty much ends the game. Did you have much testing? Any trends?
I'm struggling to believe you got roomy bases, comfortable expansions, so much interesting neutral terrain, and 4 start locations rotationally balanced all in one 128x128 map. Awesome!
Heh you're the first one that likes it, thanks! :p
From games I've observed/played, the trend you predicted is correct. Once the 4th is taken, the 3rds for each player become much easier to defend because troop movement isn't focused around the tower anymore. If a player tries to take a third but loses it, the opponent can take map control and expand.
Btw I forgot to mention, in the analyzer picture you can see pathable areas on the cliffs outside the naturals on the top half of the map. Dynamic pathing blocker fail? The trees probably block units anyway, but just for technical correctness...
On March 08 2011 08:17 EatThePath wrote: Btw I forgot to mention, in the analyzer picture you can see pathable areas on the cliffs outside the naturals on the top half of the map. Dynamic pathing blocker fail? The trees probably block units anyway, but just for technical correctness...
Lol thanks for pointing that out. I swear I wen't over the map a couple times to make sure... will be fixed now!
I already loved the textures of prodiG's God's Garden remake, and these look equally cool
Again you manage to make a very clean and simple 4 spawn rotational symmetry map. I really love those, keep up the good work and hopefully some day we'll see one of these in big tournaments
Why did you choose to have only 6 mineral patches on the third bases? It does look a little rough to expand past your natural already so a reduced income from the third doesnt seem encouraging to me.
I've played it several times, and haven't really found anything wrong with it. The only thing I'd warn about is that terrans should be a little careful about where they place their buildings in their main: being efficient is important here.
It's important to not get caught in your nat, it's fairly tight in there (comfortable for normal purposes, not so fun to fight in, especially vs protoss who can rofl-ff-rape you.
If you don't like the third, you can pretty safely take a main or nat as your third instead. But personally I like the thirds. I've played as all three races and found the third base comfortable.
On March 08 2011 07:38 SidianTheBard wrote: Alright after playing thru it once...I can't really find anything that I would change about it. For all the people talking about textures really need to check it out ingame because it does look a lot nicer. I absolutely LOVE the middle.
I think the tower gives a perfect amount of vision yet there are still plenty of paths to move around.
If anything I'd like to see some more "clutter" with random doodads such as rocks/plants that you are able to walk over/build over. Also maybe add a little bit more flyer space around the whole outside of the map?
Otherwise everything with this map looks great. Keep it up!
Thanks! The middle was not hard to do :p
I've been working on enlarging the main and giving more space between CC and natural, and would probably extend map bounds out a big, thus giving more fly space.
On March 08 2011 12:00 prodiG wrote: Be sure to check this map out in tomorrow's [today's] IMS KOTH starting at 7pm EST!
/writes down on hand/
Would I be allowed to spectate if I am online? I'd like to if that is allowed and if there are enough spaces open.
Sorry no spectators, but will be streamed with commentary by prodiG and Raelcun in HD here: http://www.ustream.tv/iccuptv
monitor's right, we don't allow spectators in our matches as every extra specator who could be watching the stream is an unnecessary liability for lag that could potentially really screw up the game.
The mains have been adjusted to allow build space between CC and ramp. Also some doodad aesthetic work has been done, but only really noticable in-game. Check it out on stream in 15 minutes!
looks good, one thing i dont really like about it is it seems like the xel naga tower would reveal a Zerg third because of the creep but not any other races third. (correct me if im wrong, haven't tested it)
On March 09 2011 10:02 SWiPht wrote: looks good, one thing i dont really like about it is it seems like the xel naga tower would reveal a Zerg third because of the creep but not any other races third. (correct me if im wrong, haven't tested it)
That's a great point, Monitor, you should make it so that either the XWT doesn't reveal creep or reveal CCs and Nexuses as well.
On March 09 2011 10:02 SWiPht wrote: looks good, one thing i dont really like about it is it seems like the xel naga tower would reveal a Zerg third because of the creep but not any other races third. (correct me if im wrong, haven't tested it)
That's a great point, Monitor, you should make it so that either the XWT doesn't reveal creep or reveal CCs and Nexuses as well.
Honestly what it takes to change that is a bigger deal than the issue itself. If somebody expands to a 3rd, its going to be extremely obviously to both players, regardless of who has the tower. Creep doesn't show up until a bit after you finish the hatchery anyway.
Aesthetically very pretty and it looks like a neat map. However, spawn close positions looks imbalanced to me (damn that rotational symmetry). Spawning clockwise of your opponent will give you the advantage if you prefer building a base towards your opponent, and spawning counter clockwise will give you the advantage if you prefer building a base further from your opponent. Though... it'd be fun to see counter clockwise try to steal clockwise's third and then get harassed from the cliff, lol... but I dunno, I'm just a silver leaguer. The different attack paths look interesting as well
On March 11 2011 04:55 TheRealPaciFist wrote: Aesthetically very pretty and it looks like a neat map. However, spawn close positions looks imbalanced to me (damn that rotational symmetry). Spawning clockwise of your opponent will give you the advantage if you prefer building a base towards your opponent, and spawning counter clockwise will give you the advantage if you prefer building a base further from your opponent. Though... it'd be fun to see counter clockwise try to steal clockwise's third and then get harassed from the cliff, lol... but I dunno, I'm just a silver leaguer. The different attack paths look interesting as well
From the games I've seen, taking a third is equal for players. The forward expansion path is the same for each player, and taking a 4th is also the same (natural and mains).
That being said, I updated the OP with a new image, where I moved the thirds inward and reduced the main size. It should fix any issue regarding hard to hold thirds. Amazon Overview 2
On March 13 2011 07:13 WniO wrote: mains look way to big
Its about 30.2. Thats exactly what it should be? edit: They look big because I moved the gas right next to each other. They're actually on the smaller side when it comes to mains.
Anyway, I actually did update the map again. I added a HY expansion inbetween the nat and 3rd to balance PvT and ZvT. Zerg needed the expansion in ZvT, and protoss needed the extra minrals in PvT. Amazon 2 overview
On March 13 2011 07:13 WniO wrote: mains look way to big
Its about 30.2. Thats exactly what it should be? edit: They look big because I moved the gas right next to each other. They're actually on the smaller side when it comes to mains.
Anyway, I actually did update the map again. I added a HY expansion inbetween the nat and 3rd to balance PvT and ZvT. Zerg needed the expansion in ZvT, and protoss needed the extra minrals in PvT. Amazon 2 overview
That's interesting, can you explain why exactly? I always thought those mineral only bases were good for Terran in TvP cause they could build tons more marines.
On March 13 2011 07:13 WniO wrote: mains look way to big
Its about 30.2. Thats exactly what it should be? edit: They look big because I moved the gas right next to each other. They're actually on the smaller side when it comes to mains.
Anyway, I actually did update the map again. I added a HY expansion inbetween the nat and 3rd to balance PvT and ZvT. Zerg needed the expansion in ZvT, and protoss needed the extra minrals in PvT. Amazon 2 overview
That's interesting, can you explain why exactly? I always thought those mineral only bases were good for Terran in TvP cause they could build tons more marines.
ZvT - Terran could expand to the 3rd very easily (since its towards the opponent), but Zerg could not. The HY allows Zerg an easy source of early and fast income.
PvT - Terran was having an easy time tanking and defending the 3rd, while Protoss was struggling to keep up. To help the protoss income (and deathball), I added the HY. It is not as easy for Terran to defend because tanks cannot reach it, and it also leaves a space open for run-bys. It does help Terran, but it is easer for Protoss to defend because of their static defense and warp in.
[edit]Note: The HY minerals are messed up in the overview, but they are fixed ingame. Also, I added an extra mineral patch to the third, making it 7 total now.
On March 13 2011 07:13 WniO wrote: mains look way to big
Its about 30.2. Thats exactly what it should be? edit: They look big because I moved the gas right next to each other. They're actually on the smaller side when it comes to mains.
Anyway, I actually did update the map again. I added a HY expansion inbetween the nat and 3rd to balance PvT and ZvT. Zerg needed the expansion in ZvT, and protoss needed the extra minrals in PvT. Amazon 2 overview
heh you're right, and the base is right in the middle which makes it seem a lot bigger.
PvT - Terran was having an easy time tanking and defending the 3rd, while Protoss was struggling to keep up. To help the protoss income (and deathball), I added the HY. It is not as easy for Terran to defend because tanks cannot reach it, and it also leaves a space open for run-bys. It does help Terran, but it is easer for Protoss to defend because of their static defense and warp in.
The main reason why it's tough for protoss to get a deathball is due to gas, not minerals. I really think you should include at least 1, if not 2 geysers at the HY.
PvT - Terran was having an easy time tanking and defending the 3rd, while Protoss was struggling to keep up. To help the protoss income (and deathball), I added the HY. It is not as easy for Terran to defend because tanks cannot reach it, and it also leaves a space open for run-bys. It does help Terran, but it is easer for Protoss to defend because of their static defense and warp in.
The main reason why it's tough for protoss to get a deathball is due to gas, not minerals. I really think you should include at least 1, if not 2 geysers at the HY.
Adding gas will turn the map into a turtle fest I think. The expansion is mostly to help Zerg anyway...
My only criticism of this map is that the xel naga tower seems sort of pointless except in cross positions, and even then the side paths are an option if you want to go unseen.
On March 14 2011 08:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote: My only criticism of this map is that the xel naga tower seems sort of pointless except in cross positions, and even then the side paths are an option if you want to go unseen.
Otherwise it seems pretty darn cool ^^
The tower and LOS blockers give your army a place to sit in the middle of the map while you pressure the third base. It is far from pointless in any spawn position ;D
In all seriousness though, since I haven't commented on this map yet, I just spent 5 more minutes looking over it trying specifically to pick out potential faults, and I couldn't find anything - which was probably why I hadn't commented yet on this map in the first place :D
On March 14 2011 12:07 funcmode wrote: That's some inspired grass tiling there prodiG
In all seriousness though, since I haven't commented on this map yet, I just spent 5 more minutes looking over it trying specifically to pick out potential faults, and I couldn't find anything - which was probably why I hadn't commented yet on this map in the first place :D
Lol thanks. My aesthetics are a joke compared to prodiG's... I can learn from them though!
On March 14 2011 12:07 funcmode wrote: That's some inspired grass tiling there prodiG
In all seriousness though, since I haven't commented on this map yet, I just spent 5 more minutes looking over it trying specifically to pick out potential faults, and I couldn't find anything - which was probably why I hadn't commented yet on this map in the first place :D
Lol thanks. My aesthetics are a joke compared to prodiG's... I can learn from them though!
wow... I haven't played it yet, but from the overview pic, this looks like it will be my absolute favorite map. I absolutely LOVE the choice between the mineral-only 3rd and the normal third. It's interesting how in close positions, taking the mineral third is an incredibly aggressive move for one person, but relatively defensive for the other. I don't know if this counts as "imbalance", really. I personally just think it'll make for really interesting games.
I especially love the tallgrass + river-block in front of the natural. that's just asking for some awesome tactics to happen. Hell, all the tall-grass is just asking for crazy awesome mid/end-game flanks to happen.
(just in case the message didn't get through) Love it!
i love this map -- don't get me wrong -- but i somewhat agree with FlopTurnReaver. Zerg needs vespene way more than minerals, and toss needs loads of gas to get a good deathball going.
imho, adding 1 gas would make that a good expansion making it a trade off: a full base of gas, or better/faster mineral income w/ 1/2 a base of gas.
Why did you add that HY? That's just an awful base :O
Will address both of these-
i love this map -- don't get me wrong -- but i somewhat agree with FlopTurnReaver. Zerg needs vespene way more than minerals, and toss needs loads of gas to get a good deathball going.
imho, adding 1 gas would make that a good expansion making it a trade off: a full base of gas, or better/faster mineral income w/ 1/2 a base of gas.
The idea wasn't to be a full base or a trade off between 3rds. The expansion was more supposed to be like a mineral only inside the natural, except I moved it to make it harder to hold. It was supposed to be an obvious place for Zerg to put a macro hatch (in cross or clockwise spawn positions) and for any other race to take without having to fully commit to defending the space between the natural and 2gas third.
Adding a gas to the expansion would be extremely redundant with the 3rd because the HY is much easier to hold regarding distance from the natural and distance from the opponent, and because its supposed to be an easy source of minerals with less of a risk than the farther 3rd. A single gas would make taking the middle 3rd rather useless to take before expanding to the HY, which is not something I want.
All races need gas more than minerals. Terran does especially because of marines, but for Terran to take the gold reduces map control and allows the opponent to expand to a neutral natural or main. Zerg can easily throw a macro hatch there when he spawns clockwise from the opponent or in cross positions. When he spawns counter-clockwise from the opponent, the distance to the 3rd and 4th (other natural) is much shorter and easier to hold.
[edit] If you want to provide a reason for "That's just an awful base", that would be much better since I'm kinda blindly explaining reasoning for balancing the expansion.
I will (obviously) consider making a change to the expansion, but adding a gas would not be any sort of solution without altering the distances.
Hm sry, just thought that it's kinda obvious^^ People are saying that one of the biggest problems that XNC has is that the HY expo is like a checkpoint for Terran. If they place a PF there it's reeeally hard to get to them.
Now imagine that on this map. Theres one tiny entrance to the natural which every player will avoid because of the fear of either Siege Tanks or Forcefields. Then what's left? One wider entrance covered by a Planetary Fortress. Not very appealing imo.
Hm sry, just thought that it's kinda obvious^^ People are saying that one of the biggest problems that XNC has is that the HY expo is like a checkpoint for Terran. If they place a PF there it's reeeally hard to get to them.
Now imagine that on this map. Theres one tiny entrance to the natural which every player will avoid because of the fear of either Siege Tanks or Forcefields. Then what's left? One wider entrance covered by a Planetary Fortress. Not very appealing imo.
The expansion has 6 minerals only, and is really only getting you 2.5 bases. On XNC, you get 4 bases, including a 7mineral 2gas HY.. even then its not a big issue. The HY expansion is a bit choked albeit, but its wide enough to get a great surround, or a runby through the small choke if he doesn't have vision through the LoS blockers (which they often don't, from the games I've played).
Putting a planetary would be effective here, but I don't think its overpowered in any way. You are essentially losing map control (where on XNC, taking the HY gives you map control) and only getting 2.5 bases...
[edit]
Have long range units (notable the colosus and seige tank) been tested on this map?
For example, lets say a protoss player spawns at the 6 oclock, and for some reason takes the gold expansion near the 9 oclock spawn as his third base.
If a terran player spawns at 9oclock and seiges a tank from the bottom of his main, will it hit the workers in the gold expansion?
(Same question applies to colosus)
Yes, I have tested tanks and colossi.
Tanks can hit the gold HY expansion from the main, however only the very very edge of the main can hit the very edge of the mineral line. This is something that I want to remove currently, and will in the near future. I do want the 3rd to be droppable though, it adds a dynamic of warp-in or other harass, while also makes it easy for the player to take the 3rd against his main.
On March 15 2011 10:14 monitor wrote: The idea wasn't to be a full base or a trade off between 3rds. The expansion was more supposed to be like a mineral only inside the natural, except I moved it to make it harder to hold. It was supposed to be an obvious place for Zerg to put a macro hatch (in cross or clockwise spawn positions) and for any other race to take without having to fully commit to defending the space between the natural and 2gas third.
ah, i see what you mean now, thx for explaining, nvm about the adding gas point i made (in hindsight, a pretty bad idea i realize)
in fact, i can't think of a reasonable criticism for this map anymore. I commend you sir
On March 15 2011 10:14 monitor wrote: The idea wasn't to be a full base or a trade off between 3rds. The expansion was more supposed to be like a mineral only inside the natural, except I moved it to make it harder to hold. It was supposed to be an obvious place for Zerg to put a macro hatch (in cross or clockwise spawn positions) and for any other race to take without having to fully commit to defending the space between the natural and 2gas third.
ah, i see what you mean now, thx for explaining, nvm about the adding gas point i made (in hindsight, a pretty bad idea i realize)
in fact, i can't think of a reasonable criticism for this map anymore. I commend you sir
Lol np, thanks! Any concerns help, including the thought about the HY. It has raised question of whether its too easy to hold for Terran, which I will keep looking at. For the mean time, I'll just make it unseigable by the main.
Just to note, I don't mean any of this stuff personally or aggressively, I just mean to talk seriously about balance :p
On March 15 2011 10:14 monitor wrote: The idea wasn't to be a full base or a trade off between 3rds. The expansion was more supposed to be like a mineral only inside the natural, except I moved it to make it harder to hold. It was supposed to be an obvious place for Zerg to put a macro hatch (in cross or clockwise spawn positions) and for any other race to take without having to fully commit to defending the space between the natural and 2gas third.
Is there something stopping zerg from putting a macro hatch in another convenient spot? The only thing I can see for zerg is using the gold base to fuel a crazy amount of roaches, or as preparation to start throwing down expansions everywhere else willy-nilly using the fast minerals. Protoss can start spamming cannons at the real 3rd, or set up some kind of weird warpgate replenish attack with a silly amount of gateways. Terran can actually play normally and make tons of useful guys out of extra rax. I find that unpalatable. There's a definite dearth of high level play with mineral only expansions, so I'm a bit lost trying to formulate a robust complaint, but I don't like it because it seems quite gimmicky to use for two of the races and rather easy for the other.
However I agree that adding a gas doesn't help anything.
On March 15 2011 10:14 monitor wrote: The idea wasn't to be a full base or a trade off between 3rds. The expansion was more supposed to be like a mineral only inside the natural, except I moved it to make it harder to hold. It was supposed to be an obvious place for Zerg to put a macro hatch (in cross or clockwise spawn positions) and for any other race to take without having to fully commit to defending the space between the natural and 2gas third.
Is there something stopping zerg from putting a macro hatch in another convenient spot? The only thing I can see for zerg is using the gold base to fuel a crazy amount of roaches, or as preparation to start throwing down expansions everywhere else willy-nilly using the fast minerals. Protoss can start spamming cannons at the real 3rd, or set up some kind of weird warpgate replenish attack with a silly amount of gateways. Terran can actually play normally and make tons of useful guys out of extra rax. I find that unpalatable. There's a definite dearth of high level play with mineral only expansions, so I'm a bit lost trying to formulate a robust complaint, but I don't like it because it seems quite gimmicky to use for two of the races and rather easy for the other.
However I agree that adding a gas doesn't help anything.
From test games, it has turned out just fine. It has acted as an expansion to take before you take the full 3rd, which makes defending the distance easier. Zerg can use the expansion very easily as a 4th, and then take a 5th and 6th easier. Terran can use a Planetary fortress to defend it (or tanks), but it leaves the Zerg space and time to expand to a gas expo, which puts them ahead. Protoss can use cannons to defend it easily, but again leaves time for Zerg to take a gas expo. If a gas were added, as you say, it wouldn't improve anything because it would help Protoss and Terran turtle too much.
So, overall, it hasn't been an issue right now. I have to admit though, Zerg hasn't used it for a macro hatch as much as they have used it for an expansion to help cover distance the third. Taking it as a 4th is very possible in close positions too.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/u34dh.jpg)
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