EPTOn January 28 2011 17:23 Grebliv wrote:
If it were my own map i'd probably end up doing something like this:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7510/premh.png)
to amplify the "the lower path is sort of bad" feeling so that there is reason to use the longer path for more secure pushing, sort of a green advantaged over pink. Like i guess you were going for with the "ambush" concept. This is the way they did most of those dreamliner, RoV, PA style maps in BW, there you also more of a high ground advantage however. The later the game goes the deeper into the map the battles go.
Then again I may be overly obsessed with that sort of pathing.
Right now the main fighting path would just be the main big one (think steppes but not with the side bits so cut off and a bit longer distance) the side bits (3rd and further) feel like they'd be more for dicking around and harassment with the odd flank.
If it were my own map i'd probably end up doing something like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
to amplify the "the lower path is sort of bad" feeling so that there is reason to use the longer path for more secure pushing, sort of a green advantaged over pink. Like i guess you were going for with the "ambush" concept. This is the way they did most of those dreamliner, RoV, PA style maps in BW, there you also more of a high ground advantage however. The later the game goes the deeper into the map the battles go.
Then again I may be overly obsessed with that sort of pathing.
Right now the main fighting path would just be the main big one (think steppes but not with the side bits so cut off and a bit longer distance) the side bits (3rd and further) feel like they'd be more for dicking around and harassment with the odd flank.
I follow you. I actually had Blue Storm in mind as a map where the center path was too tight for what I wanted, so I went a bit overboard on widening it. But see, I don't think the ambusher's advantage is necessarily that the attacker is walking directly along the bottom of a ramp and you swoop down on him, its more like there are so many ramps your ambush or backstab force could be hiding on that I can't delay my timing attack to check them all. And there are no towers so an attacker just lazily drops a worker there and can see if anything moves in from behind. The fog of war is "thick"! In any case, I'll consider your tightening adjustment to make flanks against the center stronger.
On January 28 2011 19:06 sob3k wrote:
That "nydus push" idea is never going to happen.
1. 2 nydus worms required, more expensive than drop.
2.You will never ever in a million years be able to "cover" a building nydus from the low ground. It has not nearly enough health. if it is seen then a single volley will kill it instantly from far beyond hydra range, if it isn't seen you're better off just building one worm right into the main....
That "nydus push" idea is never going to happen.
1. 2 nydus worms required, more expensive than drop.
2.You will never ever in a million years be able to "cover" a building nydus from the low ground. It has not nearly enough health. if it is seen then a single volley will kill it instantly from far beyond hydra range, if it isn't seen you're better off just building one worm right into the main....
I can't wait for the day when nydus blows up, and I'm telling you sob3k, this day will come!
I play with Nydus occasionally, and there is a reason it costs more than drop which is that it is better than drop for a bunch of situations. If you take an island with nydus and you get attacked, you run your drones into the worm and "presto!" you lose a lot less for that extra 100 gas compared to drop. You'll see, somebody in GSL will figure it out, but part of it is the maps.So about this Nydus push business: I don't usually try to nydus right into the opponent's main because they expect that, but if there is a hole it's worth a shot. Here's a major problem: if you see a nydus building, you can kill it with like 8/10 workers. Try it, probes do that to me all the time. All I'm saying is you can defeat the like 2 newest marines and the SCVs that a guy pulls when you surprise him with a nydus worm, IF you had some hydras to partially cover it building. I'm not suggesting that you nydus into a tank line, it still has to be a surprise.
One last thing about nydus that I'm positive will be part of its future uses: when its time to take a 3rd or 4th base (think XelNaga Caverns) you should shoot a worm up. It gives you a billion benefits including immediate creep to drop crawlers on, the sound of it will inevitably cause a flurry of unnecessary mind trickery on your opponent while he scours his bases looking for it, and you can position most or all of your main army further into the map with a reasonable method of jumping to your core bases in case of an attack. You'll see my friend, nydus will break out someday, ignore the pun!
Oh, and I got all hyped on nydus I forgot to ask you: WniO posted above a possible change to the map where the low ground pits for this nydus push would extend together and form a big low ground island in the back of the map with two new expos. If the first worm of this push got you a base as well as setting up the second one, would that get you to even try it?
On January 28 2011 20:31 Antares777 wrote:
I'm concerned about the XWT at the island. To me, that would favor Terran. If they have that XWT in control, they can see Overlords, and if they kill them, can have air control from main to main. Zerg wouldn't see the drop until it's in his main.
I like the concept of the map. I like where the third is located, and how there is no definite fourth for each player. The only problem I have is the XWT location. If you want to have it give sight into the gold, then simply just put it on the ground in between the two ramps and back it up to the wall of the gold.
I'm concerned about the XWT at the island. To me, that would favor Terran. If they have that XWT in control, they can see Overlords, and if they kill them, can have air control from main to main. Zerg wouldn't see the drop until it's in his main.
I like the concept of the map. I like where the third is located, and how there is no definite fourth for each player. The only problem I have is the XWT location. If you want to have it give sight into the gold, then simply just put it on the ground in between the two ramps and back it up to the wall of the gold.
No, man, let the Terran have it! Maps should have stuff that everyone wants to grab. Okay, say a Terran lifts CC to the island early, and he grabs the tower. So what? The Zerg with overlords better have already seen the CC and realized ovies shouldn't be chillin where vikings can pick them off. And for that matter, there are a lot of spots along the edge of the map for ovies to hide, so they have their own advantages here. I say let the island be juicy, and all races should consider it or make sure to keep their opponent off it.
On January 28 2011 21:03 Samro225am wrote:
I think the concept overall is interesting, but difficult. I did something similar with my map (2) Tendency and I think there are some similarities that are similar weaknesses:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rsmG9.jpg)
sorry for putting my map mage into your thread, but I think it helps to discuss the principal problems in scrapstation-like maps.
sorry about talking about my own map, but it really is similar.
I think the concept overall is interesting, but difficult. I did something similar with my map (2) Tendency and I think there are some similarities that are similar weaknesses:
+ Show Spoiler +
sorry for putting my map mage into your thread, but I think it helps to discuss the principal problems in scrapstation-like maps.
sorry about talking about my own map, but it really is similar.
No problem, we really should be collaborating, why else are we bothering to post our maps here?
And I remember Tendency and its various facelifts, its coolFirst there is a central expansion, that is brutal to hold. First I was thinking making it gold, but then I made it a triple vespene. My concept was, that there were other expansions the opponent could take (even more extually) when not going for the central expansion. Giving away a high yield expansion though is more difficult thang giving away a triple vespene.
Second point is the island, that I do not like in general but that is understandable in such a layout, because it is difficult fit in two extra pathes towards the north east corner. still it might be possible to have two pathes and two expansions back there.
Okay, I'm not sure I follow exactly. What are we giving away? And what don't you like about islands? Islands are like backdoors to main where some players wish they never existed I suppose, but I think islands play a fundamental role by encouraging tech. + Show Spoiler +
except for terrans who just have build OCs and marines 
Other problems I think I can find in your map from analyzing it only visual (cannot play it): the natural is a bit too open and the movement from nat to nat is just really boring.
My suggestion is to remove the island, make the gold easier to hold (one ramp ony probably?) and change path between basis to make it more interesting, like extra low- or highground somewhere.
also get the XN into the centre. Probably take a look into (2)Tendency.I want to rework it and so have some similar problems
I hear you that the nat2nat walk is boring, but there's a cool movie opening to stop at! Actually, I was hoping the tension of backstabs and flanks actually makes the nat2nat walk interesting because players have an incentive to peek up ramps along the walk, or scout ahead while the main army marches down the center.
And in response to the natural, I made this image for you and dezi and everyone. It's a 1-to-1 comparison of the natural on Metalopolis with the natural on Premiere, where I measured the distance of chokes in map cells.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5ymB3.jpg)
Basically, if you think the natural on Premiere is so open its broken, then do you freak out about Metalopolis everytime you play that? Of course not, because SC allows you to use different styles to take your first expansion. If the natural choke is tight you can do tricky aggressive fast expanding, and if the natural is very open you can always be more conservative about it. Just picture XNC, in the early game those two little chokes and the side area barely matter when you only have a few units to defend, so on that map FE is like a natural with almost 180 degrees of open attack vectors! Its all doable, and we should create maps with variety I think
