By.Sun For thoroughly all-killing OZ during the STX Masters' Cup final in a month where pretty much no other games were played, Sun gets some recognition.
n.Die_soO On one hand, it seems unfair to lump soO down here instead of in the ranks. He made it to the OSL semifinal and played some amazing games against JangBi, and has improved his overall ability throughout the year, but he's still an SKT zerg.
I still shiver when I think of the fact that the Jin Air OSL final could have been between Fantasy and soO...
Shoutouts
JangBi Since I don't really have any actual shoutouts for this Power Rank [if you have any potential ones, please post them!], I'll just write one out to JangBi. I don't think there has been any time in Power Rank [besides when FakeSteve randomly put Sea at #1] that a progamer has just waltzed from off the list into the top slot. Okay, so let's just say that there was no meritable case where the "Prev[ious]" heading for Power Rank has had a "-" for change.
Well, that's it for this Power Rank. For those dedicated readers, Power Rank still exists, and will persist until professional Brood War is declared dead by a highly acclaimed team of professionals. And for those of you who thought that Power Rank had been completely removed [and just randomly found this]... have fun reading.
Since there will be most likely be no games until the start of the next season, I will hopefully see you guys at the end of October.
I would have put Flash and Fantasy above Jangbi... I'd hope you'd take a few days before doing it and that you had realized how not-that-good Jangbi's (and Fanta's) play was (even though it gave epic games, for instance game 4 was a strong case of bad decision making, and yeah high pressure situation blablabla but still...). I was in fact more impressed with the beating Fantasy gave to Hydra, even if it not that well-played either, because he proved better in his worst match-up, and not against lolsoO (another case of epic games not that well played...). What Flash did in the finals was as impressive imho, and I wonder what you would have done if PL finals was yesterday and OSL finals one week ago... I would also have put Bisu higher, and Sun instead of HoeJJa (and I'm a SKT antifan). Also why is Killer's photo Zero's ? Happy to read it of course :D
I can't agree with this PR completely, for example Zero#5 Bisu and Stats #6,7 and I would give Sun at least the #10, because Zero did not play many matches this month either he played 2 in STX cups and lost one of them. Bisu and Stats played one game in SPL finals and won them and if the STX cup is really important for your writing, why sun who won the STX cup for SKT in a pretty convincing manner is not even in the top10? But besides of the fact I would rotate Zero,Bisu and Stats a bit and Sun is not in the top10, the write up is ok.
On September 18 2011 19:59 GTR wrote: is it just me or killer's picture is of zero
The wrong TLPD number seems to have been linked.
This ranking was a surprise to me, I didn't know it was even out until I decided to check on the old one. I thought TL was going to feature it in the News section?
haha, can't believe that I had to click THREE times to find power rank... Team Liquid really is letting BW go. Flamewheel, you've been a TL pillar of SC since the first days I started watching, some four years ago. This was an awesome power rank, and I just wanted to thank you for spending ur time to continue...
As for Jangbi, as much as I hated his last win, raging hard over how rediculous pathfinder is for carriers, he truly deserved his win. From his very early comeback signs by storming 100% of zeros drones, I've always had hope that he would recover. GG
I think JangBi makes a good #1. We've just witnessed one of the most amazing stories in BW history, at a time when the game desperately needs a good story... something to get the fans excited, watching, and feeling hopeful. JangBi delivered this, perfectly.
Glad to see Killer here, really felt he had a chance at the OSL. Definitely wouldn't have been the favorite vs JangBi or Fantasy, but I felt he could have had a chance. I just hope someone steps up and sponsors Oz, and keeps the lineup together. Jaedong, Killer, HiyA and the kinda almost maybe better than last year Protoss line would have a much better season than the last two.
I'm a little iffy about putting Jangbi at #1, considering how he basically jumped from CBNC to #1 based on an OSL run along where the only player he demolished is SoO, and the other games are really close.
Otherwise, not too much activity. Off season sucks.
JangBi! You are now the king of Broodwar for a month, enjoy it! And win all your SPL games and do it again next OSL!
Sun also won in the SPL Grand Finals, don't forget that. But since SKT1 lost, I guess he sits out. Basically, if Best beat Flash in the ace match then Sun would have #10 and Hoejja would be CBNC. Gotta give props to the winning team.
As for ZerO-Bisu-Stats... it's hard to judge. I am glad that you put Hydra above ZerO. Hydra earned a Ro4 appearance while those 3 all lost in the prelims. But as for the order... I'm not sure that's the wisest choice considering the non-ZerOs each won on the grandest stage of professional Broodwar, Stats with a much, much needed victory for KTF. While it's not ZerO's fault that Woongjin exited the playoffs before the finals, sometimes you gotta give props to the winners. ZerO didn't make any wakes this month, and a #7 would be a severe drop but considering the accomplishments of the 6 above him (while simultaneously considering that ZerO sat on his hands), it would be quite justified. I'd rather have #5 Stats, #6 Bisu, #7 ZerO, but we can't all get what we want.
Very nice PR overall.
Flamewheel, I hope you are fighting for the cause! Messaging admins and moderators to get this in news and get the comments thread moved from Polls & Liquibet to Broodwar General. We will fight for you too.
Nice PR, it's good to have it now, I was expecting it only on October. I was going to pester you about Jangbi above Flash, because I think Flash is overall the better player, but I completely agree with your reasoning for Jangbi on #1: his win had style, and that was really important for Broodar. It's about time a protoss won a final again.
Zero didn't sit on his hands because he chose to or because of bad play. Stats and Bisu were playing when Zero was because Woongjin failed, not because Zero failed. Bisu got off the hook with an easy opponent (so talking up his win is more than a little silly) and while Stats did deliver big, I strongly disagree with weighting 3 meaningful wins since SWL over what Zero has done. If you're looking that short term then there's no consideration being given to the big picture AT ALL. A Bisu over Zero choice could be argued on the grounds that Bisu has been mopping up (against scrubs, mind you) for month after month. In the case of Stats, he's really just been a faithful sidekick, not qualifying to individual league since 2010, having a weak performance for months leading up to the playoffs (10-15 in his last 25 games before the playoffs), and wasn't really stronger than Zero in the playoffs. Also, he's not even qualified for MSL next season... if there is a next season. Moreover, no matter which race you are, Zero is the more scary opponent. Ergo, Zero is more powerful.
PR looks good on the whole. I'd have tossed Bogus and Light into CBNC as both of them are fearsome right now and poised to do good things in MSL... if there ever is an MSL. Also I thought Jaedong's ranking seemed to me more like a giant description of the tennis scene than progaming, with a connection that to me feels weak. All that really needed to be said is the fact that ZvZ has been what's knocked JD out of his last 4 Starleagues.
As a Flash fan I'm pretty okay with this ranking. Jangbi just wouldn't be denied during his run so I can't deny him either. WP Jangbi, I hope to see you keep up the same caliber of play next season.
Here's hoping Flash's wrist surgery goes okay! I would like Flash to win just one more tournament.
TBH Jangbi's win against fantasy was really far from "convincing fashion". Actually, Fantasy should win this series. Thus, Flash at #1 should be fair as well. But yeah, his back from slump has much "power" if you ask me
On September 19 2011 06:07 hitthat wrote: TBH Jangbi's win against fantasy was really far from "convincing fashion". Actually, Fantasy should win this series. Thus, Flash at #1 should be fair as well.
I believe in long term consistency so I agree with Flash #1. But there's no way to say Fantasy deserved that series more than Jangbi.
Jangbi had some stupid decision-making in both games 2 and 4. Both of which led directly to his loss. Otherwise, he would be at either a superior position or equal position in both games. Fantasy did not show any amazing plays in either game. He only get credit for taking advantage of Jangbi's mistakes.
There was one game where Fantasy semi-should've won. That's game 5. And you know what? He didn't make mistakes so much as he just showed not having good judgement for a unique situation. I think he just killed everyone in practice so quickly he didn't count on Jangbi holding off. This seems really obvious when you see him with 5 factories, 1 add-on, and 1k/1k floating around off of 3 bases. Fantasy after his ultra-sucessful harass became clueless for whatever reason. While Jangbi, despite getting shitted on by Pathfinder, kept his calm and sought out the best way to make a comeback. His decision to counter with goons, using high-ground vision advantage to whittle down goliath/tank numbers, etc. were all perfect given the circumstances. He found a path to victory while Fantasy could not turn his massive advantage into a winning one.
If there was a time-machine and that series gets replayed infinite times, I honestly believe Jangbi would win that series 70+% of the time at least.
I was browsing TLPD and saw Jangbi #1 on the PR. What an enjoyable surprise, a new power rank ! Great comment on Jangbi's first spot and good PR overall even if very few games were played. Thanks flamewheel.
On September 19 2011 13:26 baubo wrote: Jangbi had some stupid decision-making in both games 2 and 4. Both of which led directly to his loss. Otherwise, he would be at either a superior position or equal position in both games.
I dont agree, it was Fantasy who almoust threw the game away in set 4, not Jangbi. All he should do to win in game 4 was just making 2nd base and reinforce the safety of his own main after succesfull elimination of Jangbis natural. Instead, he sent too many tanks to that chocke (wich could be easly defendable with smaller forces, at last for some time till fantasy's economy "went overdrive") to end this game with a slow push. In game 2 Fantasy was never really far behind and he played better overall (less stupid mistakes). I dont want take anything from Jangbi, he played perfect games 1-3, but it was not "convincing victory".
Oh, and I didnt write Jangbi deserves victory less than Fantasy, he showed more determination and his won games were much more crushing overall. just that was NOT convincing fashion for me.
yo Jangbi 1st place but honestly who else could be placed there if the only real thing in this month was OSL ok also SPL finals, but Jangbi > Flash this month, then he must be higher...
On September 19 2011 13:26 baubo wrote: Jangbi had some stupid decision-making in both games 2 and 4. Both of which led directly to his loss. Otherwise, he would be at either a superior position or equal position in both games.
I dont agree, it was Fantasy who almoust threw the game away in set 4, not Jangbi. All he should do to win in game 4 was just making 2nd base and reinforce the safety of his own main after succesfull elimination of Jangbis natural. Instead, he sent too many tanks to that chocke (wich could be easly defendable with smaller forces, at last for some time till fantasy's economy "went overdrive") to end this game with a slow push. In game 2 Fantasy was never really far behind and he played better overall (less stupid mistakes). I dont want take anything from Jangbi, he played perfect games 1-3, but it was not "convincing victory".
Oh, and I didnt write Jangbi deserves victory less than Fantasy, he showed more determination and his won games were much more crushing overall. just that was NOT convincing fashion for me.
You know in game 4 Fantasy did 2 fact with only 12 scvs? Lets not even get to a second base when he doesnt even have enough workers for 14cc LOL. Thats how all in he was. That game was float cc into at least a draw for Fantasy.
This is why I love Power Rank. It's not idiotic like KeSPA rank (remember how long EffOrt stayed at the top after he "retired"?), it's not as cut-and-dry like the ELO rank, and most of all, we get a really nice write-up with it. With his amazing run last month, JangBi truly earned his spot at #1. With the other placements I largely agree, and it's sad to see Jaedong slipping... hopefully he's get his chance for redemption next year (come on KeSPA find a sponsor already).
Great PR. I was afraid that Flash was going to be #1 but I'm glad I was wrong. Fantasy and Hydra might be a bit too high for my liking but I can't really say anybody else deserved the #3 and #4 spots.
When is the PR going to be featured news like Plexa said when the PR was removed from the side bar?
On September 18 2011 16:55 flamewheel wrote: Okay, so let's just say that there was no meritable case where the "Prev[ious]" heading for Power Rank has had a "-" for change.
Errm, this still wasn't exactly a fully meritable case. Granted, Jangbi deserved it more than Sea did, but (by your own admission) he's still definitely not the top player in the world right now. While Steve putting Sea at #1 was a total emotional pick, yours was still partly emotional.
I think it would be more interesting if someone went from off the power rank to #1 based completely on skill/results.
JangBi deserved his #1 spot this month with his OSL win, but I have no doubts that Flash will be #1 again next month, when he recovers from his surgery.
Last time I saw a progamer winning finals with such justice was Jaedong in 2008 after slaying Fantasy in the semifinals and I'm happy it gave the #1 PR both times. Really, there was something symbolic about that victory.
Jangbi played awesome and the series was a nail-biter. I still cant believe he won the last game with the same tactic as in the first game. He defiantly deserves #1
On September 20 2011 04:41 Divine-Sneaker wrote: Regardless of JD being at #8 this PR just can't but make me happy. The entire tale about Jangbi and his awesome comeback is just amazing.
My sentiments exactly... I did like the Federer comparison to Jaedong piece. I hope with all my might he makes a comeback.
Great piece, I agree with the PR. FOREVER BROODWAR <3! Such an amazing game.
I know this has been said a lot, but I'll say it again. I am highly disappointed though, that this power rank is not where it rightfully belongs, aka the right sidebar. TL should be proud of BW, and it saddens me that many of the newer players will have next to no exposure to BW simply because of this and other aesthetic changes.
The rankings are pretty much what I expected after a month of nothing besides star league and STX master's cup. Huge congratulations to jangbi of course for winning his first star league and finally leaving the kong line. That game 5 match was by far the most exciting match I have seen in recent times.
!!! FlaSh is 2!!! Meh. I'm ok with this. Jangbi totally deserves this. Hopefully FlaSh will be back soon. LMAO at JD so low. Good bye Jaedong!!! jk we love you JD.
I've been a Jangbi fanboy since I saw him break his first terran siege, something I found incredibly hard myself when I played my noobish starcraft. Kind of stopped watching Brood War when he went on a slump. So happy to see him rise again though, he can be surely amazing sometimes!
I got a little peeved when I saw ostensibly used in the context of praising Jangbi, the leader of the PR, but I thought I would read on... then I stopped at platitude of reasons.
Don't know how hard it would be to introduce a new tab on 'Profile' page, so user can either pick SC1 or SC2 and the side-bars will arrange themselves accordingly? I don't have my own computer currently so can't really afford to install plug-ins. xD At least it will solve awkward effort to introduce eliminated BW elements in Featured News or so.
Oh my gosh... that Jaedong-Federer comparison was so perfect and sad... I just wish so badly that it's wrong... I mean I was cheering so much for Federer too... Hope he still has some in him~
I think people are forgetting that jangbi did beat flash and fantasy in a bo3 and bo5, which nudges him into the #1 slot over flash and fantasy. Who cares who flash and fantasy beat, in a head to head match, jangbi was the one who beat the both of them.
And I knew Jangbi was championship material. Just didn't expect him to take about 3 years to get here after I called that. =(
You can't honestly believe JangBi is better than Flash. At the end of the day the Power Rank is just who is stronger on a given day in a given game. Who is better at brood war. Who, if they played, would win more. That is undoubtably Flash. He's simply better. JangBi was barely able to beat a terrible Fantasy. Flash is Flash.
On September 20 2011 06:01 KwarK wrote: You can't honestly believe JangBi is better than Flash. At the end of the day the Power Rank is just who is stronger on a given day in a given game. Who is better at brood war. Who, if they played, would win more. That is undoubtably Flash. He's simply better. JangBi was barely able to beat a terrible Fantasy. Flash is Flash.
This very day... I think Flash would have trouble playing with only one hand
On September 20 2011 06:01 KwarK wrote: You can't honestly believe JangBi is better than Flash. At the end of the day the Power Rank is just who is stronger on a given day in a given game. Who is better at brood war. Who, if they played, would win more. That is undoubtably Flash. He's simply better. JangBi was barely able to beat a terrible Fantasy. Flash is Flash.
I will admit flash is better than jangbi overall. Much stronger. In fact, the overall distant between them is so far that its pretty much immeasurable, but for the past month, I believe that jangbi has been slightly better starcraft than flash. Yes flash, soo, and fantasy made mistakes when they played against jangbi, but who hasn't made a mistake? If you discredit a player based on how terribly his opponents played, then you could discredit basically everyone. And yes I do know flash has been played injured, which is rather unfortunate, but shit like this happens in any sport. There has been many instances where a championship team or player fails to reach a championship due to injuries.
Right now, you just sound really bitter that jangbi won, so just take a break. Things don't always go the way you want it to be. I was really bitter that fantasy steamrolled stork, but that doesn't mean I should discredit fantasy because stork played like crap during the finals. Just take a chill pill and relax for a while.
I'm so glad that Jangbi won! He deserves the number one spot for this power rank, and I really hope he can keep it up. I really liked the Federer analogy with Jaedong; it fits really well. I hope he can get back into top form!
Hopefully JangBi will be able to repeat his run next OSL beating once again Flash and some other person he played in finals. I want to see rematch with Flash wrist being ok. And I still belive JangBi will win. He must win! I don't want to see him coming off this #1 spot !
I really like the write-up of the power rank, and I've read all power ranks in the past 4 years or more. although I am a Khan toss fan, and I was really impressed with JB's play, I don't consider that he should be placed above Flash. He swowed impressive playstyle, but he doesn't have the "Darth Vader Factor". If you whould have to play with your life on the line, whou would you choose to play? JB or Flash? I honestly hope that Jangbi will keep up his pimressive momentum. And also, welcome bac to nr 1 on the power rank.. it has been a while
Incredibly happy for Jangbi's spot. Sure if we're all honest there might be some liberties involved in specific placement but it feels right and it is awesome (and [poor english ignored] he did have an amazing title run).
Really really really surprised by how pessimistic you are about Jaedong. I remember the days of JvZ.
If it wasnt for the fact that I was so happy with Jangbi winning, I would say Flash beating BeSt twice in the finals was so epic, especially in the fashion he did it in and with a physical injury.
Lol Federer's semi final loss was the the first time ive seriously watched tennis and even I felt the heartbreak Dx
That aside, while I hate to admit it, I have to agree that JDs career seems to be on a downturn, BUT, I feel like its salvageable. If JD can get onto a team that is more disciplined, I think he can resurge. Jangbi's recent resurrection should give hope that any progamer can rebound. I would love to see a merger between FOX, MBC, and Oz and bring in a new coach that is more charismatic and demanding.
JD's resurgence isn't impossible. We all know how mentally tough he is, and to play through the disaster that was 2010 (3 finals losses in a row, and the loss of Cho) he was still able to play at a high level.
I really hope he ends up on another team, where he isn't the poster child anymore, and he has to prove himself.
JD's gotten away with being a bad ass for so long that JD has been lax with some parts of his game and I think certain those small errors have accumulated and finally drastically hindered his clutch performance. I think a change of scenery and leadership could force him back into the bad ass, enraged looking JD we all fell in love with.
Oh wow a BW power rank on the front page! Holy batmobile batman! <3
Also I for one agree with Jangbi's place in this ranking. Even though I'm a Flash fan, I gotta say that Jangbi's achievements as well as his career as a whole are amazing.
On September 20 2011 06:01 KwarK wrote: You can't honestly believe JangBi is better than Flash. At the end of the day the Power Rank is just who is stronger on a given day in a given game. Who is better at brood war. Who, if they played, would win more. That is undoubtably Flash. He's simply better. JangBi was barely able to beat a terrible Fantasy. Flash is Flash.
Yeah, Fantasy is such a horrible player. And Jangbi played not well to. Beating the two top best TvPers in series back to back is only because they both played terrible, all the other protosses can do it to, as you could easily see during the last couple of years. Your analysis of Jangbi's games in this OSL (this very OSL with 2 protoss in total) actually annoys the hell out of me. I can hardly wait for your recap of the finals. You are just searching for flaws and you will of course again find plenty of them, I am sure.
That aside, of course Flash is better than Jangbi, it is no contest.
Long live the Power Rank! Thanks Flamewheel for keeping this alive.
Jangbang as #1 is the right thing to do for so many reasons, but mostly because he's earned it. No doubt that Flash is the best player in the world, but right now JB has the most powerzzzzzzz.
Really hard to place the others given the lack of play, though I reckon Sun/Rain should be in there somewhere.
On September 20 2011 06:01 KwarK wrote: You can't honestly believe JangBi is better than Flash. At the end of the day the Power Rank is just who is stronger on a given day in a given game. Who is better at brood war. Who, if they played, would win more. That is undoubtably Flash. He's simply better. JangBi was barely able to beat a terrible Fantasy. Flash is Flash.
Last i checked, Flash currently lacks a functioning right arm. He probably doesn't even belong on the power rank this month, and i say that as a Flash fanboy.
On September 20 2011 06:01 KwarK wrote: You can't honestly believe JangBi is better than Flash. At the end of the day the Power Rank is just who is stronger on a given day in a given game. Who is better at brood war. Who, if they played, would win more. That is undoubtably Flash. He's simply better. JangBi was barely able to beat a terrible Fantasy. Flash is Flash.
Last i checked, Flash currently lacks a functioning right arm. He probably doesn't even belong on the power rank this month, and i say that as a Flash fanboy.
flash could probably beat hoejja single-handedly though
Jaedong and Roger fighting! They will come back; I believe!! Like McEnroe and Boxer, there may even be decades ahead, when someone has developed such godly skill.
I also found this only when going back to look at the old PR thread.
I'm okay with Jangbi at #1, even though it hurts that Flash isn't going out as #1 on his last PR. Because—mark my words—it will be his last. I also battle with carpal tunnel problems, and I guarantee that he isn't coming back.
On September 20 2011 08:07 nodule wrote: I also found this only when going back to look at the old PR thread.
I'm okay with Jangbi at #1, even though it hurts that Flash isn't going out as #1 on his last PR. Because—mark my words—it will be his last. I also battle with carpal tunnel problems, and I guarantee that he isn't coming back.
Whether or not you're right, I don't think you have to bash his chances like that.
On September 20 2011 08:53 djbhINDI wrote: A lot of people have said this, and I don't get it. Why is JangBi winning important to esports?
One of the most gut-wrenching entertaining individual league finals in a while, huge fan turnout, inspirational story for a progamer, first protoss to win in years, breaking of the silver curse, living up to the hype - which do you need explaining? : )
On September 20 2011 07:22 Yxes2211 wrote: I would love to see a merger between FOX, MBC, and Oz
WHOA THERE. powerhouse team INC? Yeah that's a bit imba lmao. JD, Baby, Sea, Killer, Midas, Shine, Jaehoon <--- trollololol, etc. That's gonna be one friggin tough team, one S-class followed up with solid A-teamers Lets not get too ahead of ourselves.
On September 20 2011 08:53 djbhINDI wrote: A lot of people have said this, and I don't get it. Why is JangBi winning important to esports?
One of the most gut-wrenching entertaining individual league finals in a while, huge fan turnout, inspirational story for a progamer, first protoss to win in years, breaking of the silver curse, living up to the hype - which do you need explaining? : )
On September 20 2011 08:53 djbhINDI wrote: A lot of people have said this, and I don't get it. Why is JangBi winning important to esports?
People love Cinderella runs. For Jangbi to go from getting slapped around in Winners League to OSL gold (all the way from the prelims, and having to beat flash in ro8) is pretty amazing.
On September 20 2011 08:07 nodule wrote: I also found this only when going back to look at the old PR thread.
I'm okay with Jangbi at #1, even though it hurts that Flash isn't going out as #1 on his last PR. Because—mark my words—it will be his last. I also battle with carpal tunnel problems, and I guarantee that he isn't coming back.
Whether or not you're right, I don't think you have to bash his chances like that.
I'm not going to be unrealistically positive in a forum he doesn't read (I'd wouldn't say it to his face).
I'm just sad that Flash—the best broodwar player ever—isn't getting the recognition he would if he retired. He might play again, but only for a short while, and will never again be Flash.
On September 20 2011 08:53 djbhINDI wrote: A lot of people have said this, and I don't get it. Why is JangBi winning important to esports?
Well, it's not as important as, say, Boxer coming back and winning the OSL. But Jangbi descended pretty much the deepest depths possible as a BW pro, from one of the best in the game to one of the worst, posting a 25% win record for the good part of a year. To overcome that and rise again to the very top is kind of magical.
I think pretty much everyone thought his run would sputter out. Make it past the prelims? Okay. Squeak by the first round in tiebreakers? Alright. But he's dead against Flash, right? Oh, not he isn't. Soo, the ZvP sniper is next. Oh, 3-0. But Soo's a scrub—sure Fantasy will take him down, the guy who just embarrassed Jangbi's much better teammate 3-0 the last time he made to the finals? Some how, some way, no, he didn't.
Maybe Fantasy threw game 5 because SC needed some new life and having Jangbi win instead of the crown prince makes a better story. Fantasy sat on a trust fund for most of game 5 and threw away a huge food count lead. I only watched the game twice so I didn't fully analyze or anything but stuff like not even having 1 tank sieged at home for the goon counter attack?
On September 20 2011 12:57 ggggbabybabybaby wrote: This is going to be an epic troll but...
Maybe Fantasy threw game 5 because SC needed some new life and having Jangbi win instead of the crown prince makes a better story. Fantasy sat on a trust fund for most of game 5 and threw away a huge food count lead. I only watched the game twice so I didn't fully analyze or anything but stuff like not even having 1 tank sieged at home for the goon counter attack?
KeSPA pulling a Savior perhaps?
Just some food for thought.
I actually had this idea right after I heard that Fantasy won. Actually, I had it after Soo lost. I'm not seriously suggesting that this occured by the way, just that the idea of this going down entered my head and fascinated me. Soo and Fanta would have been idiots to actually throw their matches because either of them winning the OSL would have been at least as significant as Jangbi's victory. Fanta would have been the first player to win back-to-back OSLs in a long time, truly making him the Crown Prince of the SKT line while Soo would have been the first Royal Roader in ages and become the rookie to watch out for.
Actually I take that back. Both those are kind of lame compared to Jangbi's heartwrenching cinderella story, but players are players. There's no way Fanta or Soo even entertained the thought knowing what SKT fans expected of them and what was at stake
Yeah. The answer is that Jangbi is just really really really good. I know it's hard to notice that when he's been slumping so bad for so long, but there was a time where he was basically the best player on the scene in spite of TBLS -- and was the best player to never win a title before he did. Give the man his due, the only player who wasn't 100% against him was maybe Flash, and that's purely physical (Flash got outplayed strategically, anyhow).
Jangbi deserves his spot. Winning an OSL with such good play deserves first. Flash played very convincingly during the SPL finals. Its a close call, but I value an OSL win over a SPL.
We had amazing series in the last few months. Its so odd seeing people saying esports is dying in korea while we are having intense finals.
Also thanks for the power ranks. It clearly deserves much more recognition then it gets. I think I speak for the community when I say thank you for your contributions, flamewheel.
On September 20 2011 12:57 ggggbabybabybaby wrote: This is going to be an epic troll but...
Maybe Fantasy threw game 5 because SC needed some new life and having Jangbi win instead of the crown prince makes a better story. Fantasy sat on a trust fund for most of game 5 and threw away a huge food count lead. I only watched the game twice so I didn't fully analyze or anything but stuff like not even having 1 tank sieged at home for the goon counter attack?
KeSPA pulling a Savior perhaps?
Just some food for thought.
Dude don't say that. He couldn't keep up with the pace of the game and his macro fell behind. Its not typical of Fantasy but it does happen. To suggest that KeSPA is pulling a Savior is insane. The BW community as a whole flipped **** over the issue. KeSPA + coaches and the players took it much more harder than the fans. To think they will turn around and fix matches is extremely unlikely.
The only reason I wouldn't put Flash #1, even with Jangbi's miraculous monster of an OSL run, would be the uncertainty in his recovery from surgery. IMO Power Ranking should be forward-looking, and as much as it pains me, we don't know if Flash will be Flash when and if he comes back.
Otherwise, solid list. I would've liked to see HoeJJa higher, given his status as the cornerstone of KT's Proleague victory. Certainly ahead of Killer, probably Jaedong as well. I wouldn't even take Stats over HoeJJa's current form, when even his losses make him look damn good.
Man I dunno why people keep using the fact that Bisu wasn't in that GF Ace match against him. I mean, I agree with his placing, but why was that the determining factor? If it ended at the fact that he's basically taking down lower-skilled players in a Bo1 that'd be fine.
Ah well. It's a fitting PR for the end of this year's season. Here's to hoping for a grand bon voyage to the MSL on October!
People inevitably going to be mad about Bisu's position even though it's totally fair. So sure he's considered the best Proleague player but when it came to the most important game of Proleague he wasn't used. Sad really.
On September 20 2011 07:08 DyEnasTy wrote: If it wasnt for the fact that I was so happy with Jangbi winning, I would say Flash beating BeSt twice in the finals was so epic, especially in the fashion he did it in and with a physical injury.
BeSt is like Kespa rank 46. It wasn't epic it was just to be expected. BeSt was NEVER going to beat him on Fortress for a start. So he beat him a few times before in far less important matches... doesn't mean anything when you get to a final. Was a mistake to send him against Flash, especially twice.
On September 20 2011 12:57 ggggbabybabybaby wrote: This is going to be an epic troll but...
Maybe Fantasy threw game 5 because SC needed some new life and having Jangbi win instead of the crown prince makes a better story. Fantasy sat on a trust fund for most of game 5 and threw away a huge food count lead. I only watched the game twice so I didn't fully analyze or anything but stuff like not even having 1 tank sieged at home for the goon counter attack?
KeSPA pulling a Savior perhaps?
Just some food for thought.
Kespa pulling a Savior? You have to be trolling. Kespa is more catholic than the Pope. Actually, Kespa is more catholic than the Spanish inquisition. An organization upholding such high moral standards to be involved in that.. I don't think so. They were disqualifying players for not gg-ing properly, that is the height of their moral standards.
On September 20 2011 06:01 KwarK wrote: You can't honestly believe JangBi is better than Flash. At the end of the day the Power Rank is just who is stronger on a given day in a given game. Who is better at brood war. Who, if they played, would win more. That is undoubtably Flash. He's simply better. JangBi was barely able to beat a terrible Fantasy. Flash is Flash.
Last i checked, Flash currently lacks a functioning right arm. He probably doesn't even belong on the power rank this month, and i say that as a Flash fanboy.
flash could probably beat hoejja single-handedly though
hoejja is flash's main sparring partner :o dont count on it
On September 21 2011 05:34 Pvvned wrote: I too, hope that you are wrong about Jaedong.
I like Hydra, and I think he'll be something special
but I want JD to win more titles just so he can distance himself a little bit further before future zergies challenge that feat.
Effort is back and after all these time in training, I think Effort will successfully grind up to the top and reign as a new chapter after Yellow, July, sAviOr and unfortunately JD too as the number 1 Zerg. Maybe TBLS will get replaced by Effort and JangBi + 2 other guys (probably Fantasy and someone else).
Isn't it kind of a contradiction to say JangBi beat Fantasy in "highly convincing fashion" and then go on to say that Fantasy pushed JangBi to his absolute limit?
Otherwise it's a decent PR I guess, considering the lack of games & Flash's wrist/arm condition.
On September 21 2011 08:14 Ermac wrote: Isn't it kind of a contradiction to say JangBi beat Fantasy in "highly convincing fashion" and then go on to say that Fantasy pushed JangBi to his absolute limit?
Not really. Fantasy brought his A-game, but Jangbi responded well to everything that was thrown at him with cool professionalism, which led to a convincing victory even in the face of adversity. There have been games when one player completely dominated the other despite bringing very mediocre play to the game simply because the other player was performing even worse that day. I wouldn't consider those games "convincing victories" even if they were one-sided.
On one hand, the power rank is so lengthy with many words. It's nice! On the other hand, it's quite foreboding to see something out of the normal, an approaching end. Either way, OSL Finals was awesome. I really hope to see more like that. Go JangBi!
Ah the return of the Brood War power rank. All is right in the world once again. I have no beef with you putting Jangbi in the #1 spot. I haven't been so moved by someone other than Flash winning since Stork's mini resurgence at the beginning of the year. The rest of the power rank is really good too.
On September 20 2011 06:01 KwarK wrote: You can't honestly believe JangBi is better than Flash. At the end of the day the Power Rank is just who is stronger on a given day in a given game. Who is better at brood war. Who, if they played, would win more. That is undoubtably Flash. He's simply better. JangBi was barely able to beat a terrible Fantasy. Flash is Flash.
Yeah, Fantasy is such a horrible player. And Jangbi played not well to. Beating the two top best TvPers in series back to back is only because they both played terrible, all the other protosses can do it to, as you could easily see during the last couple of years. Your analysis of Jangbi's games in this OSL (this very OSL with 2 protoss in total) actually annoys the hell out of me. I can hardly wait for your recap of the finals. You are just searching for flaws and you will of course again find plenty of them, I am sure.
Forgive him. He's British. Brits are good at everything, you know. With the exception of cooking and StarCraft offcourse
On September 21 2011 08:14 Ermac wrote: Isn't it kind of a contradiction to say JangBi beat Fantasy in "highly convincing fashion" and then go on to say that Fantasy pushed JangBi to his absolute limit?
Not really. Fantasy brought his A-game, but Jangbi responded well to everything that was thrown at him with cool professionalism, which led to a convincing victory even in the face of adversity. There have been games when one player completely dominated the other despite bringing very mediocre play to the game simply because the other player was performing even worse that day. I wouldn't consider those games "convincing victories" even if they were one-sided.
Well, according to KwarK, Jangbi "barely beat a terrible Fantasy". As far as I know he's one of the most knowledgeable persons on this site in terms of strategy, game/player analysis, etc.
On September 20 2011 06:01 KwarK wrote: You can't honestly believe JangBi is better than Flash. At the end of the day the Power Rank is just who is stronger on a given day in a given game. Who is better at brood war. Who, if they played, would win more. That is undoubtably Flash. He's simply better. JangBi was barely able to beat a terrible Fantasy. Flash is Flash.
Yeah, Fantasy is such a horrible player. And Jangbi played not well to. Beating the two top best TvPers in series back to back is only because they both played terrible, all the other protosses can do it to, as you could easily see during the last couple of years. Your analysis of Jangbi's games in this OSL (this very OSL with 2 protoss in total) actually annoys the hell out of me. I can hardly wait for your recap of the finals. You are just searching for flaws and you will of course again find plenty of them, I am sure.
Forgive him. He's British. Brits are good at everything, you know. With the exception of cooking and StarCraft offcourse
I agree with Kwark. The only game that I thought was decently played by both player in the final was game 3. In every other one, huge mistakes were made. Hope Kwark will write his recap.
On September 21 2011 08:14 Ermac wrote: Isn't it kind of a contradiction to say JangBi beat Fantasy in "highly convincing fashion" and then go on to say that Fantasy pushed JangBi to his absolute limit?
Not really. Fantasy brought his A-game, but Jangbi responded well to everything that was thrown at him with cool professionalism, which led to a convincing victory even in the face of adversity. There have been games when one player completely dominated the other despite bringing very mediocre play to the game simply because the other player was performing even worse that day. I wouldn't consider those games "convincing victories" even if they were one-sided.
Well, according to KwarK, Jangbi "barely beat a terrible Fantasy". As far as I know he's one of the most knowledgeable persons on this site in terms of strategy, game/player analysis, etc.
Look, different people have different opinions. For example, the post-match grades from FOMOS for Fantasy was B+, A+, B+, A, A. For Jangbi A+, B, A+, B, S. The people giving out these grades are not exactly noobs either.
On September 22 2011 00:43 saltywet wrote: fantasy had a whole extra week to practice, help from his coaches and SKT protosses and fucking imba strategies, and STILL lost. he's fucking terrible
There's no way a "fucking terrible" player has an OSL win and three silvers. That's ridiculous on the face of it. Even more, with slightly better luck fantasy could very well have four golds: I mean, what kind of terrible draw is it to have to play Stork, Jaedong, Stork, Jangbi, even in a final? Sure, Flash has a golden mouse: yes, he beat Stork and Jaedong - but his second medal came against Movie, and he lost to Effort. (Was Flash "terrible" when he screwed that series up? Mindgamed, yes; therefore outplayed, yes; terrible? No.) Jaedong has a golden mouse: yes he beat Stork and fantasy, but his third gold came against a clearly outmatched Yarnc. July has a golden mouse - against Reach, Goodfriend, and BeSt, and he lost to Nada and oov. So yeah. fantasy's OSL record stacks up favorably against all of those, except of course that he doesn't actually have the titles to show for his level of accomplishment.
Sure: fantasy could have played better. On the other hand, since he took the series to five games, he obviously "could have" won, but he didn't. Was his decision-making perfect? No - but neither was Jangbi's (or he wouldn't have lost two games). In fact, nobody's perfect. But was fantasy playing at a ggaemo or Jaehoon fail-level (with apologies to both of those players who have dramatically improved)? No, no, no.
I don't understand all the fantasy hate. He's not Flash, but nobody is, and Jangbi beat Flash too. fantasy's the 2nd best TvP by reputation and ELO; in the other matchups he's 4th TvZ ELO (after Flash, Light, and Leta) and he wrecked Hydra; in TvT ELO he's 3rd after Flash and Sea. fantasy obviously screwed up the series in that he didn't win, but I don't think any other Terran would have taken Jangbi to five games.
Or is it actually Jangbi hate that's reflecting onto fantasy because he's the handy scapegoat for losing? Because that, really, makes even less sense. Jangbi didn't play a perfect game either, but he won what he had to win all the way, and Game 5 was a decisive refutation of fantasy's play.
Fantasy's 3 OSL losses were all 2-3 against players who are very strong vT. Okay, Jangbi's PvT ELO right now is dog crap, but that's because his ELO score still has not recovered from his huuuuuge slump. His play against Flash was top notch, even if you want to doubt his play against Fantasy. Not to mention the way he's demolished every other Terran he has faced in one-sided fashion since his slump ended.
Since July was brought up, I feel inclined to point out that while July in his prime won 2 OSL's and got 2 silvers, both wins being tense 3-2's and both losses being humiliating 3-0's. And he was the great Zerg hope. His fans called him "bonjwa" long before the BW community as a whole accepted the term. (Although the BW community as a whole does not consider him bonjwa and never did.) Of course his 3rd OSL win came years later and he played well there, but that is a different story -- one I have discussed at length in the past.
Fantasy and Jangbi both had solid, solid OSL runs.
I've never understood anyone who said Fantasy was bad. The guy is really fucking good. You don't play 4 OSL finals by being bad. And as someone above me mentioned, he's got a lot of silvers because he runs into S-class vT'ers in finals. No Terran would have been favored against Stork (2008), no player at all against Jaedong (2009), and yet he took both players to their limits even when he was practically a rookie. He decimated Stork in the previous OSL --- remember what a tear Stork had been on? And against Jangbi, well, say what you will but Flash lost to Jangbi too, so whatever.
Basically Fantasy kicks ass and whatever crazy fail moments he has, he more than makes up for them by being awesome the rest of the time.
And nobody --- I mean nobody --- plays as entertaining a Bo5 as Fantasy.
GGPlay vs Fantasy --- eye-opening series Stork vs Fantasy, Incruit 2008 --- edge of seat series Fantasy vs Bisu --- eye-opening series Jaedong vs Fantasy, the first time --- edge of fucking seat, man. Jaedong vs Fantasy, the second time --- more edge of seat Fantasy vs Flash --- out of this world amazing series Fantasy vs Hydra --- very entertaining, mostly I remember G1 as being the ballsiest sunken break of all time Fantasy vs Jangbi --- two words: NAIL BITER
See a trend? Fantasy plays the most entertaining Bo5's of any progamer, hands down. Especially when he just barely loses
I think part of the issue with Fantasy is that his multitasking seems bad when compared to Flash, and his timing is very good compared to any other Terran, but Flash has this crazy ability to spread himself out without spreading himself thin, which lets him get better information to choose the optimal timing.
Fantasy spends a lot more of his energy on his vulture control and honestly it shows. His vulture use is better than Flash's unquestionably. I strongly feel that anyone thinking otherwise is not watching Starcraft. Unfortunately Fantasy will sometimes slip in his macro and/or miss a supply depot while he's controlling vultures. Flash would rather have them do little damage so long as he keeps his macro up. Flash uses them completely differently. Sometimes you'll see a lone vulture scout a position and it's amazing the way the moment he sees units with it he instantaneously responds and it runs away, sometimes only getting hit once or twice, but let's be real... how many units does Flash normally kill with vulture harassment? Sometimes a lot, but usually it's his push that's the real danger. Fantasy wreaks havoc with his vultures, but sometimes it's just not enough havoc.
great power rank and i agree with almost everything. except for this little part about flash:
Yes, he lost to JangBi after winning the first set in a best of three. However, had he won I definitely think that regardless of his hand injury, Flash would have taken yet another OSL.
no, just no. think back to the insane trainwreck of a series that was the bigfile msl semifinals between fantasy and flash. think back to their ridiculous proleague match in i think round 2 or 3 of this pl season. account for fantasy's incredible ability to drag out games. there is absolutely no chance in hell that flash could have won a tvt bo5 against fantasy with an injured wrist. fanta would simply have had to drag out the first 2 games and flash's wrist would have prevented him from playing at any level that comes even remotely close to fanta's.
flash is clearly the superior of the 2 players, but fantasy has shown again and again that he pushes flash to the limit if he is prepared. with an injured arm, flash would simply not be able to go to this limit.
Yes, he lost to JangBi after winning the first set in a best of three. However, had he won I definitely think that regardless of his hand injury, Flash would have taken yet another OSL.
no, just no. think back to the insane trainwreck of a series that was the bigfile msl semifinals between fantasy and flash. think back to their ridiculous proleague match in i think round 2 or 3 of this pl season. account for fantasy's incredible ability to drag out games. there is absolutely no chance in hell that flash could have won a tvt bo5 against fantasy with an injured wrist. fanta would simply have had to drag out the first 2 games and flash's wrist would have prevented him from playing at any level that comes even remotely close to fanta's.
flash is clearly the superior of the 2 players, but fantasy has shown again and again that he pushes flash to the limit if he is prepared. with an injured arm, flash would simply not be able to go to this limit.
LOL
I mean yeah, maybe it's not as crystal clear as flamewheel suggested that Flash would have won the OSL, but "no chance in hell" that Flash can beat Fantasy in a Bo5 despite an injured wrist is even more of a wrong exaggeration.
Just because in the past Fantasy once came close to beating Flash in a Bo5 doesn't mean that was his everyday performance. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Flash started almost every game in that series with quite a disadvantage and made incredible comebacks. That's why it was so exciting.
Since Flash exploded in 2010 he has only lost 3 games vs Fantasy, two of them in a series that he won. Just some food for thought...
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
I mean, Fantasy wasn't a slouch when he crushed Stork (the best PvT player that time) 3-0 on very heavy toss favorite maps (and pathfinder). Jangbi, while posting impressive results over Flash and Fantasy never dominated the same way. As for the opponents, Calm and Baby weren't in very good shapes coming into group play with their respective last 10 vP matchups at 4-6 and 5-5 and 3 of their wins coming off the free falling Free, so it's not like he's gotten himself into a group of death. In addition, SoO forgot that he's best at hydra-busting.
And, of course, Flash is still Flash. With the exception of the loss to Jangbi 1-2 in bo3, he pretty much did everything else right, and is coming into this ranking as number 1... by a very long shot.
The difference between fantasy #2 and Jangbi #1 is that Jangbi beat Flash.
Yes, the storyline may play into it, but the fact is there: Jangbi beat Flash. BeSt didn't; Bisu didn't (get a chance to); fantasy didn't (ditto); Hydra didn't; etc. The last person to beat Flash in a game that mattered was, being generous with what "matters", Jaedong - in June. The last person who beat Flash in a Starleague series was EffOrt, 16 months ago. It was an ugly 2-1 win, maybe, and Flash has his arm problems, but that's huge - and if Jangbi's only competition for #1 was Flash, beating Flash puts Jangbi at #1. (If Jangbi beat Flash and fantasy won the OSL, I'd sort of want to put fantasy #1 - but fantasy didn't win so it's a moot point.)
(In contrast: When fantasy won the OSL, he beat Hyun (lol), free ( ), Modesty (heh), Hydra (hey, a good win), Hyuk (lol), Clam (3-2), before hitting Stork in the final. We've already hashed through what Jangbi did, but he beat Flash and that's what counts. Sometimes, beating the king is enough to be the king.)
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that the difference between Flash and Fantasy as of 2/1/2011 in terms of PR was very small. Had Fanta beaten Flash in SWL he might have actually taken it. That's the kind of difference we're talking about.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that the difference between Flash and Fantasy as of 2/1/2011 in terms of PR was very small. Had Fanta beaten Flash in SWL he might have actually taken it. That's the kind of difference we're talking about.
All very good arguments.
I guess in a way, I'm feeling a little biased. It just seems a bit unfair the situation Flash was put in. That wrist injury cost him his spot on PR. That's what bugs me the most.
I understand that JangBi beat Flash and that his performance has been BEYOND exceptional. It's just that I feel that putting him at #1 was only because Flash couldn't perform at his par. Idk, I am not really against it, I just don't think it's fair.
However, props goes to JangBi. He did damn well this OSL.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that the difference between Flash and Fantasy as of 2/1/2011 in terms of PR was very small. Had Fanta beaten Flash in SWL he might have actually taken it. That's the kind of difference we're talking about.
All very good arguments.
I guess in a way, I'm feeling a little biased. It just seems a bit unfair the situation Flash was put in. That wrist injury cost him his spot on PR. That's what bugs me the most.
I understand that JangBi beat Flash and that his performance has been BEYOND exceptional. It's just that I feel that putting him at #1 was only because Flash couldn't perform at his par. Idk, I am not really against it, I just don't think it's fair.
However, props goes to JangBi. He did damn well this OSL.
I disagree though; I don't think the wrist injury cost Flash this PR. I thought Flash performed well against Jangbi (as good as against Best, anyway, where Flash dominated 2-0), just things did not go quite his way, which happens even if you are healthy.
Flash's wrist injury problem existed back in December of last year as well and may be the reason for his bad performance there, but he was able to 3-kill SKT1 (for the win) on that wrist injury back in January anyway.
It is a little unfair that Fanta couldn't claim #1, because I really would have wanted him to, but iirc I wasn't in favor of putting him at #1 at the time either. He just couldn't quite give that extra little bit of dominance needed to seal the deal. Had he beaten Flash, then Flash would not have gone on for the 3-kill including that win over Bisu, and we'd probably have seen Fanta at #1.
Sometimes life is unfair. It was unfair to Midas when he just couldn't finish Savior despite being just |..| that far away twice, and so one of the greatest players ever just became a footnote in Savior's shadow, despite being haled as "the next big thing" at the time. It's been unfair to Yellow countless times, 5 times facing a top Terran in OSL/MSL finals and 5 times losing. So, yeah. At least Fanta secured his OSL gold and his month as KeSPA #1, which won't be forgotten. Yellow's only SL win was GhemTV, which everybody has forgotten about by now.
On September 22 2011 20:02 Ermac wrote: Just because in the past Fantasy once came close to beating Flash in a Bo5 doesn't mean that was his everyday performance. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Flash started almost every game in that series with quite a disadvantage and made incredible comebacks. That's why it was so exciting.
Since Flash exploded in 2010 he has only lost 3 games vs Fantasy, two of them in a series that he won. Just some food for thought...
The most exciting thing about that series was that flash 2-0ed fantasy in WCG korea qualifiers a couple hours earlier, and started off the series with 2 wins, and fantasy somehow managed to not fall apart completely.
On September 22 2011 20:02 Ermac wrote: Just because in the past Fantasy once came close to beating Flash in a Bo5 doesn't mean that was his everyday performance. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Flash started almost every game in that series with quite a disadvantage and made incredible comebacks. That's why it was so exciting.
Since Flash exploded in 2010 he has only lost 3 games vs Fantasy, two of them in a series that he won. Just some food for thought...
The most exciting thing about that series was that flash 2-0ed fantasy in WCG korea qualifiers a couple hours earlier, and started off the series with 2 wins, and fantasy somehow managed to not fall apart completely.
Are you serious? Did you not actually watch that series? Because the most exciting thing about it was game 1.
On September 22 2011 20:02 Ermac wrote: Just because in the past Fantasy once came close to beating Flash in a Bo5 doesn't mean that was his everyday performance. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Flash started almost every game in that series with quite a disadvantage and made incredible comebacks. That's why it was so exciting.
Since Flash exploded in 2010 he has only lost 3 games vs Fantasy, two of them in a series that he won. Just some food for thought...
The most exciting thing about that series was that flash 2-0ed fantasy in WCG korea qualifiers a couple hours earlier, and started off the series with 2 wins, and fantasy somehow managed to not fall apart completely.
Are you serious? Did you not actually watch that series? Because the most exciting thing about it was game 1.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
I mean, Fantasy wasn't a slouch when he crushed Stork (the best PvT player that time) 3-0 on very heavy toss favorite maps (and pathfinder). Jangbi, while posting impressive results over Flash and Fantasy never dominated the same way. As for the opponents, Calm and Baby weren't in very good shapes coming into group play with their respective last 10 vP matchups at 4-6 and 5-5 and 3 of their wins coming off the free falling Free, so it's not like he's gotten himself into a group of death. In addition, SoO forgot that he's best at hydra-busting.
And, of course, Flash is still Flash. With the exception of the loss to Jangbi 1-2 in bo3, he pretty much did everything else right, and is coming into this ranking as number 1... by a very long shot.
Aside from Mortality's very good post I have two things to add that differentiate the situations being discussed. Back then Flash didn't just win a tough series against Fanta, he also 2-0'd him in WCG Korea earlier that day. Flash was 5-2 against Fanta. Also, Flash's injury has to enter into the discussion. Flash's wrist condition is a big question mark. We all know what Flash is capable of, the question is how much will his body hold him back? The doubt, or possibility of doubt has to lower his rank here.
On September 20 2011 08:07 nodule wrote: I also found this only when going back to look at the old PR thread.
I'm okay with Jangbi at #1, even though it hurts that Flash isn't going out as #1 on his last PR. Because—mark my words—it will be his last. I also battle with carpal tunnel problems, and I guarantee that he isn't coming back.
I think this counts as blasphemy! On a serious note good PR, a tad on the emotional side but hey thats all good, JangBang's story is amazing and he deserves the #1 spot for this month at least!
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
I mean, Fantasy wasn't a slouch when he crushed Stork (the best PvT player that time) 3-0 on very heavy toss favorite maps (and pathfinder). Jangbi, while posting impressive results over Flash and Fantasy never dominated the same way. As for the opponents, Calm and Baby weren't in very good shapes coming into group play with their respective last 10 vP matchups at 4-6 and 5-5 and 3 of their wins coming off the free falling Free, so it's not like he's gotten himself into a group of death. In addition, SoO forgot that he's best at hydra-busting.
And, of course, Flash is still Flash. With the exception of the loss to Jangbi 1-2 in bo3, he pretty much did everything else right, and is coming into this ranking as number 1... by a very long shot.
Aside from Mortality's very good post I have two things to add that differentiate the situations being discussed. Back then Flash didn't just win a tough series against Fanta, he also 2-0'd him in WCG Korea earlier that day. Flash was 5-2 against Fanta. Also, Flash's injury has to enter into the discussion. Flash's wrist condition is a big question mark. We all know what Flash is capable of, the question is how much will his body hold him back? The doubt, or possibility of doubt has to lower his rank here.
Yeah, but Flash also got eliminated from both leagues the previous month in that earlier ranking, so it's not like he's separated from the pack. He basically had to earn his keep from proleague performance, which he did. Same as Flash right now, where he performed well in the proleague playoffs and final. Fantasy, while wildly inconsistent in those days, was consistently on the power ranks. Jangbi went from nowhere to top because of a single league where he didn't really dominate and he went 0-3 in the proleague playoffs (though he did really well in round 6), and it was highlighted because of the changes in scheduling where MSL and OSL are staggered instead of concurrent. Flash's surgery is kind of a wash. He had limited practice time before surgery and could become better or worse over time.
Still, I can see your guys' points. I take back what I say about Jangbi having no claim to #1.
I almost missed this due to the - strange - decision to remove PR from the front page. I just want to say thanks again for a good ranking. I support giving Jangbi #1, that series was simply breath taking. I liked what you wrote about Jaedong, even though it was very sad. He will be back. He must come back.
I think JangBi has proved that it is possible to come back from a massive slump and back to the top. If Jangbi can do it then there is DEFINITELY hope for JD. Believe people, believe
On October 12 2011 05:17 Hinanawi wrote: If I had to pick one person to go against Flash in a series game for my life, it would still be Jaedong. That's got to count for something.
But that is countered by the fact that I wouldn't take him over any of the other S-class players in a Bo5
I wouldn't go that far. vs Fanta I'd favor JD and in ZvP I'd still think him pretty much even. Maybe if Bisu weren't such a choke artist it would be different but... it's only really ZvZ where JD is seriously lacking right now. And with the off season, who knows where he'll be at? Maybe JvZ will be back.
On October 18 2011 14:49 Mortality wrote: I wouldn't go that far. vs Fanta I'd favor JD and in ZvP I'd still think him pretty much even. Maybe if Bisu weren't such a choke artist it would be different but... it's only really ZvZ where JD is seriously lacking right now. And with the off season, who knows where he'll be at? Maybe JvZ will be back.
Hopefully JvZ will be back, it is so sad now. Also concerning Fanta, I never considered him to be S class for some reason. He is playing OSL pretty decently recently (on the other hand he had such an easy way, compared to Jangbi).
As posted in the website changes forum, can we please get a preseason power rank for PL. Who you think is the best coming into the new season. Thanks FlameWheel.
My preseason ranks (excluding Flash since he's injured edit: he's the obvious #1 but no room for discussion till he returns): 1. Bisu - Look at last years season plus his interviews. He seems ready, but without protoss favored maps it will be difficult. Also he is ready to win an osl, so I expect his PL performance may decrease a little.
2. Hydra - A fairly new player still, but very consistent in the last two years. Hydra is def one of the strongest players. Expect him to dominate everything except Fantasy.
3. Jaedong - Jaedong has had time to prepare... Jaedong has been practicing his stare... Jaedong is not done yet. Expect him to perform well on his new team. I'm getting nervous thinking how scary JD might be.
4. Fantasy - The most consistent PL Finals player for SKT. Each year he improves but remains second best terran. He really is amazing, but Flash takes his thunder. With Flash out fo the game, this is his chance to prove he's the best. Can this TLBS substitute continue to thrive as the dark prince? Stats says he will.
5. ZerO -I personally always feel that Zero has the potential to be unstable. With the striking potential to be a force in proleague, if you look back to 2010 his results definitely weren't as strong. Is Zero an evolved progamer or will he slip back into his old self.
6. Stork - Consistent Toss is Consistent. He has winning records versus TLBS and that can never be stated too much. I heard rumors January is going to make smart ace match choices this year. Let's go Stork!
7. firebathero - Not only did FBH make a great appearance in PL last season, he did it on ACE. Who'd think discipline was what he needed. His look is more fiercesome and his vP is looking better (seriously, he beat a protoss). I think FirebatHero will be a top terran this year.
8. JangBi - This inconsistent mutha... Well, he's doing great right now. Everyone has respect for him. I think this player has the second highest expectations to live up to this season. His PL last season really was abysmal and he really only won individuals. We believe in you Jangbi. 3 dragons in the PR!
9. Killer - If you don't think Killer is good, then you probably think nDieSoo is good. Well Killer is great. Minidong seems legit and powerful. We all fell in love with him after his personal interview. Now we love him cause he wins games. His PL success has been low but with his new team he should thrive again.
10.EffOrt - The alien is back and he's on the hot seat. The most is expected out of him, yet it seems like he's almost been replaced by the cyclops. KT will probably just send 4 zergs vs CJ from now on and hope they win. Well, Effort is rumored better and when he left he was exceptional. This season will have even more story lines then the last as we watch Effort make his return!
edit: I know this is based on nothing since it's been so long, but we need bw discussion since it's coming soon! and I like hearing Flamewheel's thoughts.
I first off think it's a terrible idea to make an actual PR based on LITERALLY NOTHING AT ALL. It would be 100% guessing since we haven't seen a single game for months. It be fun to talk and speculate about it, but I don't think an official PR should be made.
Secondly, excluding Flash is not very nice at all. Before the break he was #2 on the PR, and now he's already had his surgery and is playing again. No reason to completely ignore him like that (even though I know all you anti-fans just want him to magically disappear ).
No, I excluded him because he is the ultimate number 1 and merits no discussion. I dont want to speculate if his wrists will bring him down or not. He's the best until proven otherwise.
On November 02 2011 01:53 BisuDagger wrote: No, I excluded him because he is the ultimate number 1 and merits no discussion. I dont want to speculate if his wrists will bring him down or not. He's the best until proven otherwise.
I've some problems with your power rank: 1) Stats should replace FBH entirely 2) Jangbi and Bisu switch places 3) Make a damn CBNC with more players (hint: Hoejja ) 4) Putting effort and 10th is stretching, seems like most of TL forgot how whacky and incosistent he could be from time to time :p
On November 01 2011 23:29 BisuDagger wrote: As posted in the website changes forum, can we please get a preseason power rank for PL. Who you think is the best coming into the new season. Thanks FlameWheel.
My preseason ranks (excluding Flash since he's injured edit: he's the obvious #1 but no room for discussion till he returns): 1. Bisu - Look at last years season plus his interviews. He seems ready, but without protoss favored maps it will be difficult. Also he is ready to win an osl, so I expect his PL performance may decrease a little.
2. Hydra - A fairly new player still, but very consistent in the last two years. Hydra is def one of the strongest players. Expect him to dominate everything except Fantasy.
3. Jaedong - Jaedong has had time to prepare... Jaedong has been practicing his stare... Jaedong is not done yet. Expect him to perform well on his new team. I'm getting nervous thinking how scary JD might be.
4. Fantasy - The most consistent PL Finals player for SKT. Each year he improves but remains second best terran. He really is amazing, but Flash takes his thunder. With Flash out fo the game, this is his chance to prove he's the best. Can this TLBS substitute continue to thrive as the dark prince? Stats says he will.
5. ZerO -I personally always feel that Zero has the potential to be unstable. With the striking potential to be a force in proleague, if you look back to 2010 his results definitely weren't as strong. Is Zero an evolved progamer or will he slip back into his old self.
6. Stork - Consistent Toss is Consistent. He has winning records versus TLBS and that can never be stated too much. I heard rumors January is going to make smart ace match choices this year. Let's go Stork!
7. firebathero - Not only did FBH make a great appearance in PL last season, he did it on ACE. Who'd think discipline was what he needed. His look is more fiercesome and his vP is looking better (seriously, he beat a protoss). I think FirebatHero will be a top terran this year.
8. JangBi - This inconsistent mutha... Well, he's doing great right now. Everyone has respect for him. I think this player has the second highest expectations to live up to this season. His PL last season really was abysmal and he really only won individuals. We believe in you Jangbi. 3 dragons in the PR!
9. Killer - If you don't think Killer is good, then you probably think nDieSoo is good. Well Killer is great. Minidong seems legit and powerful. We all fell in love with him after his personal interview. Now we love him cause he wins games. His PL success has been low but with his new team he should thrive again.
10.EffOrt - The alien is back and he's on the hot seat. The most is expected out of him, yet it seems like he's almost been replaced by the cyclops. KT will probably just send 4 zergs vs CJ from now on and hope they win. Well, Effort is rumored better and when he left he was exceptional. This season will have even more story lines then the last as we watch Effort make his return!
edit: I know this is based on nothing since it's been so long, but we need bw discussion since it's coming soon! and I like hearing Flamewheel's thoughts.
Not a single KT player? They won the PL Finals as a team! Flash finished off the finals, no doubt, but you can't deny the KT zergs who stepped it up. Nor should you deny Stats who played well throughout the season and in the playoffs.
Last August is just a blemish in the history books. Plus I'm refusing to acknowledge Roflster for a little bit longer. At least we got that photo-real picture of Bisu
There's no point to a pre-season rank when no games have been played. And by what metric is Stork top 10 hottest on the planet when he hasn't played since July and was getting stomped left and right by almost all of his competent opponents for the several months straight?
This is basically just "these are the players I like most."
Excuse me but I just came out from a hole where I was hiding since the last season and I have no idea when the next OSL is gonna start. Would anybody be so kind as to enlighten me?
I assume since PL is back we'll get a Power Rank this month, at least for formality's sake? I realize you'll only have one week of games to go one, but that's better than nothing...
I have projects and finals coming up in the next two weeks, so I'd prefer to wait till January. If there's time, I'll try to squeeze something in but I'm not really a fan of writing off only one week's data.
That's the logical solution. Most players will have only played 1-2 games and all you'd really be able to do is slightly shuffle the current top 7-8 and introduce a couple other players at the bottom.
On December 08 2011 10:49 Cigar wrote: like 1 PR per 6 months
Like 1 tournament per 6 months.
Even so, I wish we could have the old rate of PR back. Even in dead months we sometimes had PRs, and those were always still great to read. Everyone understands that we have to take them with a grain of salt.
There seems to be a complete lack of PR speculation for this month, maybe put the thread in BW general somehow?
My thoughts:
Flash is the best right now. Again. It's been long enough since Jangbi's OSL win that that doesn't give him first automatically, and Flash, unlike Jangbi, has been destroying everyone in his path, especially Horang2 today.
Hydra, Soulkey, Jangbi, Fantasy, and Stats all have variously strong cases for 2nd. Out of these, Soulkey is playing the best, followed by Stats. Jangbi was first last PR and hasn't been bad enough to fall out of the top 5. Fantasy and Hydra are incredibly streaky and it's too early to tell what kind of streak they'll be on. Jangbi and Soulkey would likely get 2nd/3rd in some order, and the rest in the 4th-9th range.
None of Stork, Bisu, and Jaedong really are playing like top 3 right now, but they should all definitely be on the PR. Stork had a very poor end to last season that he seems to be recovering well from, Bisu seems to have slipped from his PL monster status of 10-11, and Jaedong has been great except for that bizarre opening day game against Best.
Baby has been under the radar a bit but deserves a PR spot for his newfound consistency.
Biggest disappointment so far has been ZerO. He was so good towards the end of last season (in PL, not the finals against Flash) but hasn't really done anything this season. Today's game against Jaehoon was ok, the rest not so much.
On December 18 2011 20:54 jalstar wrote: There seems to be a complete lack of PR speculation for this month, maybe put the thread in BW general somehow?
My thoughts:
Flash is the best right now. Again. It's been long enough since Jangbi's OSL win that that doesn't give him first automatically, and Flash, unlike Jangbi, has been destroying everyone in his path, especially Horang2 today.
Hydra, Soulkey, Jangbi, Fantasy, and Stats all have variously strong cases for 2nd. Out of these, Soulkey is playing the best, followed by Stats. Jangbi was first last PR and hasn't been bad enough to fall out of the top 5. Fantasy and Hydra are incredibly streaky and it's too early to tell what kind of streak they'll be on. Jangbi and Soulkey would likely get 2nd/3rd in some order, and the rest in the 4th-9th range.
None of Stork, Bisu, and Jaedong really are playing like top 3 right now, but they should all definitely be on the PR. Stork had a very poor end to last season that he seems to be recovering well from, Bisu seems to have slipped from his PL monster status of 10-11, and Jaedong has been great except for that bizarre opening day game against Best.
Baby has been under the radar a bit but deserves a PR spot for his newfound consistency.
Biggest disappointment so far has been ZerO. He was so good towards the end of last season (in PL, not the finals against Flash) but hasn't really done anything this season. Today's game against Jaehoon was ok, the rest not so much.
There is a thread in BW general. Nobody is going there either.
I'm a bit hesitant to push SK all the way up to 2nd. If Fanta and Hydra are not going to be considered due to "streakiness" then it has to be pointed out that SK just doesn't have the kind of achievements attached to his name that either of them do.
There's still some more time so we should see what happens. I think that everybody has at least 2 more games before the next ranking, and that can mean a whole lot of difference, especially given that with such a looooooooooooong off season we are not only working from somewhat small samples, but don't have the benefit of being able to interpolate based on how a player has been progressing when you expand your view to 2 months or to 3 months.
I've been away from the PR for too long. Candidates so far for ranking, judging by record:
Stork, Soulkey, BaBy, Flash (all 3-0 or 4-0); maybe fantasy (2-0) & established player. Jaedong, EffOrt, Hydra, Jangbi Stats, BeSt, and sHy! (!) are all sitting at 3-1 as well.
Then we have a bunch (Bisu, ZerO, Light, free, Jaehoon, Bogus, Shuttle) of good-to-great players who have so far only gotten mediocre to bad records.
Right now my inclination is to leave Jangbi #1 and Flash #2, but after that:
Stork, Soulkey, BaBy; then Jaedong, Hydra, EffOrt, Bisu, Stats in some order. But it's a really tentative thing yet.
Don't see why Jangbi should be ahead of Flash. I think the only thing "diminishing" Flash's aura right now is that KT is not looking very dangerous and there are no individual leagues. Unless either Flash loses or barely scrapes through some horribly scrappy games, I don't see anyone else claiming #1 over him.
On December 20 2011 04:27 Mortality wrote: Don't see why Jangbi should be ahead of Flash. I think the only thing "diminishing" Flash's aura right now is that KT is not looking very dangerous and there are no individual leagues. Unless either Flash loses or barely scrapes through some horribly scrappy games, I don't see anyone else claiming #1 over him.
Most of the reason is that Jangbi's got a residual #1 ranking from the last PR which I don't think a loss to EffOrt entirely erases, especially when Flash has played nobody: his best vs. T opponent was Jaehoon: a quality win, but great's not that impressive and Horang2 is surprisingly weak vs. Terran. Admittedly Jangbi's opponents aren't great either (except for EffOrt who beat him), but unless we're going to blow the whole thing up and start over entirely I think there's nothing conclusive putting Flash back over Jangbi when Jangbi beat Flash (among other things) to take #1.
Not that Flash #1 would be a completely illogical choice, but you seem to be defaulting to that position and I'm not sure we've seen enough to prove that's legitimate right now.
If we were going to just ignore everything from before and go on this season, I think I'd make it look something like:
1. Stork 2. Flash 3. Soulkey 4. BaBy 5/6/7. EffOrt/Hydra/Jangbi 8/9/10. ... no idea. Pick from Jaedong, Stats, Bisu (I guess), fantasy, BeSt, ...maybe Piano?
Well, in fairness, Jangbi hasn't exactly played the strongest vP line-up either. Light is not a strong TvPer. Best is hot lately, but he's 2-6 in PvP in 2011, which is hardly convincing. Truthfully, Best's reputation for PvP is STILL a carry over from mid 2008. If you look closely at his record, he is 14-20 in (41%) in PvP since Jan 1, 2009, with only one brief hot streak in late 2010. Even if we include non-standard league games it's still only 19-24 (44%). Shuttle is fairly well known for his PvP, but he's never been an elite player and never been a sniper of Horang2's caliber, and he's on a 4 game loss streak, and is actually 5-6 (45%) in 2011 unless we count prelims... and who the fuck is ajuk12? So it's debatable how much that win is worth. And then of course we have the loss to Effort, who is something of a wildcard right now. I don't think it's safe to assume Effort's form is 100% yet, but how close to 100% is an important issue.
So, yeah, if we parse Jangbi's games then I'm inclined to give the nod to Flash. Granted we are operating on small samples with no data going back to OSL, but they were neck and neck then and I have Flash with an edge right now.
In terms of caliber of competition, SK looks fairly strong, but having gone through SK's results a little more intimately, [see this discussion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291961¤tpage=52#1032］, I am somewhat hesitant to hand over a top 3 just based on what he's done. He could of course continue this domination, in which case he will really have earned it, but let's not talk about the future. The fact that he hasn't faced an S-class player also weighs somewhat significantly.
Stork's kill list looks downright frightening. Fanta's also is very relevant, but it's only 2 games.
I really want to see another 2 games out of everybody before I make too many judgement calls.
Okay, I don't know if anyone still reads this thread anymore (or cares), but now with a little more data things are starting to shape up... sort of. At this point it looks like Flash is the clear #1 candidate unless he drops a game.
Undefeated (with at least 3 games played): Flash, SK, Baby (4-0 each) *note: just because a player is undefeated does not mean they should automatically be rated over someone who is, say, 4-1 or even 4-2, because context matters... however in the case of Flash he was #2 on the last rank and only not #1 because of Jangbi's meteoric rise 1-Loss: Stork (5-1), Stats, Effort (4-1 each), Fantasy, Piano (3-1 each) 2-Loss: Jangbi, Jaedong (4-2 each)
Going by stats alone, nobody else stands out. For instance, Hydra at 3-2 leaves me unimpressed, especially since he hasn't faced Terran (both his losses come from his "strongest" mu, ZvZ). That said, just because I haven't listed somebody doesn't mean that they are banned from PR or anything like that. Hydra and Bisu and maybe still Best are all still candidates, at the very least for CBNC.
Also on my mind for CBNC are players who have given strong performances, but not enough to be PR worthy. I was very impressed with Snow's game against Jaedong, especially in the control of the sair+archon vs muta+scourge.
The only "definite" I perceive right now is Flash #1. I'm hesitant to put Baby and SK in the top 3 over players who have proven they have what it takes in individuals. People are always tempted to hop on the bandwagon of an undefeated player, but we've been burned often enough in the past (e.g. Shine during his massive winstreak a year ago) that we ought to know better. If I have to choose, I'm more comfortable with giving the nod to Baby who was pulled some impressive wins over Jaedong and Flash in the past. By comparison, SK who seems so dominant statistically in ZvZ right now... has NEVER won a ZvZ series in his life against anybody, even in prelims. But in fairness to SK, other than his inability to win a ZvZ series to save his life, he is much more consistent and has been looking strong for a while.
Currently I'm leaning towards Stork as #2. I realize that Stork tends to come out strong at the start of a new season and then fade, and I also realize he's actually below Baby and SK in ELO due to his flopping around last season, but his kill list is pretty impressive and we know he can go the distance.
Mortality, I care very much! I lurk this thread all the time, this was always the highlight of my month. This feature was what brought me to teamliquid in the first place. I'll wait forever knowing it'll come eventually.
But yeah, the lack of real dominators and the inability to send the best players out twice (whoopee, fewer games per day) must be kind of unnerving for a PR writer. Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking about it. :D
i think the problem with deciding the number one for the next ranking is the decision to place jangbi as number one in the previous ranking...
the previous number one usually has to drop the ball or a contender should do something special to displace the reigning number one... i don't think anyone thinks jangbi has lost his form based on the games at the start of the season... on the contrary, i think jangbi is playing rather well... and with not a lot of games played, no one has had the opportunity to step up... but people still want to replace him after that warm fuzzy feeling of his fairy tale OSL wore off
it is true though that it has been a while since the last ranking, which might justify placing less emphasis on who the previous number one is....
On December 30 2011 20:29 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: i think the problem with deciding the number one for the next ranking is the decision to place jangbi as number one in the previous ranking...
the previous number one usually has to drop the ball or a contender should do something special to displace the reigning number one... i don't think anyone thinks jangbi has lost his form based on the games at the start of the season... on the contrary, i think jangbi is playing rather well... and with not a lot of games played, no one has had the opportunity to step up... but people still want to replace him after that warm fuzzy feeling of his fairy tale OSL wore off
it is true though that it has been a while since the last ranking, which might justify placing less emphasis on who the previous number one is....
That doesnt matter nearly as much given the force of last PR is way lower than usual becuase the last PR was from september and we're in january now..
And flash has been way more impressive than jangbi, Don't denie it.
EPT
By.Sun
n.Die_soO
