Yes, he lost to JangBi after winning the first set in a best of three. However, had he won I definitely think that regardless of his hand injury, Flash would have taken yet another OSL.
no, just no. think back to the insane trainwreck of a series that was the bigfile msl semifinals between fantasy and flash. think back to their ridiculous proleague match in i think round 2 or 3 of this pl season. account for fantasy's incredible ability to drag out games. there is absolutely no chance in hell that flash could have won a tvt bo5 against fantasy with an injured wrist. fanta would simply have had to drag out the first 2 games and flash's wrist would have prevented him from playing at any level that comes even remotely close to fanta's.
flash is clearly the superior of the 2 players, but fantasy has shown again and again that he pushes flash to the limit if he is prepared. with an injured arm, flash would simply not be able to go to this limit.
LOL
I mean yeah, maybe it's not as crystal clear as flamewheel suggested that Flash would have won the OSL, but "no chance in hell" that Flash can beat Fantasy in a Bo5 despite an injured wrist is even more of a wrong exaggeration.
Just because in the past Fantasy once came close to beating Flash in a Bo5 doesn't mean that was his everyday performance. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Flash started almost every game in that series with quite a disadvantage and made incredible comebacks. That's why it was so exciting.
Since Flash exploded in 2010 he has only lost 3 games vs Fantasy, two of them in a series that he won. Just some food for thought...
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
I mean, Fantasy wasn't a slouch when he crushed Stork (the best PvT player that time) 3-0 on very heavy toss favorite maps (and pathfinder). Jangbi, while posting impressive results over Flash and Fantasy never dominated the same way. As for the opponents, Calm and Baby weren't in very good shapes coming into group play with their respective last 10 vP matchups at 4-6 and 5-5 and 3 of their wins coming off the free falling Free, so it's not like he's gotten himself into a group of death. In addition, SoO forgot that he's best at hydra-busting.
And, of course, Flash is still Flash. With the exception of the loss to Jangbi 1-2 in bo3, he pretty much did everything else right, and is coming into this ranking as number 1... by a very long shot.
The difference between fantasy #2 and Jangbi #1 is that Jangbi beat Flash.
Yes, the storyline may play into it, but the fact is there: Jangbi beat Flash. BeSt didn't; Bisu didn't (get a chance to); fantasy didn't (ditto); Hydra didn't; etc. The last person to beat Flash in a game that mattered was, being generous with what "matters", Jaedong - in June. The last person who beat Flash in a Starleague series was EffOrt, 16 months ago. It was an ugly 2-1 win, maybe, and Flash has his arm problems, but that's huge - and if Jangbi's only competition for #1 was Flash, beating Flash puts Jangbi at #1. (If Jangbi beat Flash and fantasy won the OSL, I'd sort of want to put fantasy #1 - but fantasy didn't win so it's a moot point.)
(In contrast: When fantasy won the OSL, he beat Hyun (lol), free ( ), Modesty (heh), Hydra (hey, a good win), Hyuk (lol), Clam (3-2), before hitting Stork in the final. We've already hashed through what Jangbi did, but he beat Flash and that's what counts. Sometimes, beating the king is enough to be the king.)
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that the difference between Flash and Fantasy as of 2/1/2011 in terms of PR was very small. Had Fanta beaten Flash in SWL he might have actually taken it. That's the kind of difference we're talking about.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that the difference between Flash and Fantasy as of 2/1/2011 in terms of PR was very small. Had Fanta beaten Flash in SWL he might have actually taken it. That's the kind of difference we're talking about.
All very good arguments.
I guess in a way, I'm feeling a little biased. It just seems a bit unfair the situation Flash was put in. That wrist injury cost him his spot on PR. That's what bugs me the most.
I understand that JangBi beat Flash and that his performance has been BEYOND exceptional. It's just that I feel that putting him at #1 was only because Flash couldn't perform at his par. Idk, I am not really against it, I just don't think it's fair.
However, props goes to JangBi. He did damn well this OSL.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that the difference between Flash and Fantasy as of 2/1/2011 in terms of PR was very small. Had Fanta beaten Flash in SWL he might have actually taken it. That's the kind of difference we're talking about.
All very good arguments.
I guess in a way, I'm feeling a little biased. It just seems a bit unfair the situation Flash was put in. That wrist injury cost him his spot on PR. That's what bugs me the most.
I understand that JangBi beat Flash and that his performance has been BEYOND exceptional. It's just that I feel that putting him at #1 was only because Flash couldn't perform at his par. Idk, I am not really against it, I just don't think it's fair.
However, props goes to JangBi. He did damn well this OSL.
I disagree though; I don't think the wrist injury cost Flash this PR. I thought Flash performed well against Jangbi (as good as against Best, anyway, where Flash dominated 2-0), just things did not go quite his way, which happens even if you are healthy.
Flash's wrist injury problem existed back in December of last year as well and may be the reason for his bad performance there, but he was able to 3-kill SKT1 (for the win) on that wrist injury back in January anyway.
It is a little unfair that Fanta couldn't claim #1, because I really would have wanted him to, but iirc I wasn't in favor of putting him at #1 at the time either. He just couldn't quite give that extra little bit of dominance needed to seal the deal. Had he beaten Flash, then Flash would not have gone on for the 3-kill including that win over Bisu, and we'd probably have seen Fanta at #1.
Sometimes life is unfair. It was unfair to Midas when he just couldn't finish Savior despite being just |..| that far away twice, and so one of the greatest players ever just became a footnote in Savior's shadow, despite being haled as "the next big thing" at the time. It's been unfair to Yellow countless times, 5 times facing a top Terran in OSL/MSL finals and 5 times losing. So, yeah. At least Fanta secured his OSL gold and his month as KeSPA #1, which won't be forgotten. Yellow's only SL win was GhemTV, which everybody has forgotten about by now.
On September 22 2011 20:02 Ermac wrote: Just because in the past Fantasy once came close to beating Flash in a Bo5 doesn't mean that was his everyday performance. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Flash started almost every game in that series with quite a disadvantage and made incredible comebacks. That's why it was so exciting.
Since Flash exploded in 2010 he has only lost 3 games vs Fantasy, two of them in a series that he won. Just some food for thought...
The most exciting thing about that series was that flash 2-0ed fantasy in WCG korea qualifiers a couple hours earlier, and started off the series with 2 wins, and fantasy somehow managed to not fall apart completely.
On September 22 2011 20:02 Ermac wrote: Just because in the past Fantasy once came close to beating Flash in a Bo5 doesn't mean that was his everyday performance. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Flash started almost every game in that series with quite a disadvantage and made incredible comebacks. That's why it was so exciting.
Since Flash exploded in 2010 he has only lost 3 games vs Fantasy, two of them in a series that he won. Just some food for thought...
The most exciting thing about that series was that flash 2-0ed fantasy in WCG korea qualifiers a couple hours earlier, and started off the series with 2 wins, and fantasy somehow managed to not fall apart completely.
Are you serious? Did you not actually watch that series? Because the most exciting thing about it was game 1.
On September 22 2011 20:02 Ermac wrote: Just because in the past Fantasy once came close to beating Flash in a Bo5 doesn't mean that was his everyday performance. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Flash started almost every game in that series with quite a disadvantage and made incredible comebacks. That's why it was so exciting.
Since Flash exploded in 2010 he has only lost 3 games vs Fantasy, two of them in a series that he won. Just some food for thought...
The most exciting thing about that series was that flash 2-0ed fantasy in WCG korea qualifiers a couple hours earlier, and started off the series with 2 wins, and fantasy somehow managed to not fall apart completely.
Are you serious? Did you not actually watch that series? Because the most exciting thing about it was game 1.
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
I mean, Fantasy wasn't a slouch when he crushed Stork (the best PvT player that time) 3-0 on very heavy toss favorite maps (and pathfinder). Jangbi, while posting impressive results over Flash and Fantasy never dominated the same way. As for the opponents, Calm and Baby weren't in very good shapes coming into group play with their respective last 10 vP matchups at 4-6 and 5-5 and 3 of their wins coming off the free falling Free, so it's not like he's gotten himself into a group of death. In addition, SoO forgot that he's best at hydra-busting.
And, of course, Flash is still Flash. With the exception of the loss to Jangbi 1-2 in bo3, he pretty much did everything else right, and is coming into this ranking as number 1... by a very long shot.
Aside from Mortality's very good post I have two things to add that differentiate the situations being discussed. Back then Flash didn't just win a tough series against Fanta, he also 2-0'd him in WCG Korea earlier that day. Flash was 5-2 against Fanta. Also, Flash's injury has to enter into the discussion. Flash's wrist condition is a big question mark. We all know what Flash is capable of, the question is how much will his body hold him back? The doubt, or possibility of doubt has to lower his rank here.
On September 20 2011 08:07 nodule wrote: I also found this only when going back to look at the old PR thread.
I'm okay with Jangbi at #1, even though it hurts that Flash isn't going out as #1 on his last PR. Because—mark my words—it will be his last. I also battle with carpal tunnel problems, and I guarantee that he isn't coming back.
I think this counts as blasphemy! On a serious note good PR, a tad on the emotional side but hey thats all good, JangBang's story is amazing and he deserves the #1 spot for this month at least!
On September 22 2011 16:06 Seeker wrote: JangBi wins one OSL and suddenly he's #1? That's really bad judgement...
Let's put this in perspective.
Two months ago he was #7 and improving.
Last month we witnessed the growth of Proleague's importance when Jangbi was dropped for going 0-3 in playoffs vs. Woongjin's top Zergs even though his Starleague record was as strong as anyone's. Actually in retrospect I think it's last month's rank that looks odd, not this month's.
Purely on Starleague play, though, he would have been up to 3-5 last month, and the OSL win - beating Flash, soO, and fantasy, progressing further than Jaedong, Killer, Hydra, and Bisu (never mind ZerO, Bogus, and Light) - only cements him as this month's #1.
I'm with seeker on this one. I think the jangbi feel good story influenced this power rank pretty heavily (pretty much stated by Flamewheel himself). Fantasy won his OSL by crushing Stork, the previous power rank #1, 3-0, which subsequently got him KeSPA rank #1... and he netted a #2 spot on the rank. Jangbi pretty much maximized the number of losses he can get throughout the whole OSL run, with the exception of bulldozing over SoO.
But he beat Flash, the only person who can be considered to be above him! Well, yes, but barely did and did it in a bo3. Unless Flash's surgery affected his ranking this month, I don't see how Jangbi can be ranked over Flash.
In fairness, the circumstances were a bit different.
Let's time travel...
Late November/early December 2010 Fantasy was on top of the world. He broke 2300 ELO with a 12 game win streak and the season before he pushed Flash to the absolute limit in the BigFile semis. Only JD and Flash stood taller. Then Fantasy slumped, hard. Over his next 11 games, only 3 wins were netted and his opponents were not exactly the cream of the crop. Finally at the tail end of the month going into early January he starts winning again, but he's still not playing the top players. He does admittedly play brilliantly against Flash, so hope starts returning. Fantasy vs Calm was a kind of gimmicky series that left nobody entirely sure what to think, we get a kind of meh performance out of Fantasy in SWL, but he does beat the crap out of Stork. However with Stork, we already saw Zero demolish him just as hard a couple days earlier, which softened the blow. Finally, regarding the finals themselves, the general consensus was that Stork did not adapt his game plan to meet Fantasy.
#1 went to Flash. With the way Flash was demolishing SWL (including that win over Fantasy), the general consensus was that Flash's bad performance in December was a fluke and that the short break at the start of 2011 was all he really needed to get back to his A-game. Fantasy's results being a bit sporadic, the edge was given to Flash.
And now to Jangbi. A few months ago he couldn't possibly be further from the top of the world. Fans wondered when he would retire. Then he wins a lot, so much that some people want him to shoot up to #1 on the PR, but due to who he was playing, what level the games were at (mostly prelims), Flamewheel made the right call and kept him down at #7 (which was actually more like #6 since Yellow got honored with the eternal #2), which was still good. Jangbi hadn't proven himself yet. The next month Jangbi got thrown through the meat grinder. This is the month before the current PR, so you might remember this is where I started talking about Fantasy. But where Fantasy was getting trounced by mediocre competition, Jangbi squared off against 3 of the top 4 Zergs and the up-and-comer Killer. Jangbi's only "bad" loss was to Calm, who actually was #6 ZvP by ELO at the time. Of course there were (and are) some doubts in Jangbi's PvT, but we can compare to Fantasy's TvT at the same time in Fanta's run: Jangbi took some losses, but did push JD very hard, similarly Fanta had pushed Flash very hard but took some losses including to Xellos. Qualitatively, Jangbi's problem seemed to be with early-midgame. His other group opponent is Baby, who has been something of a dark horse lately with some strong performances mixed in with mediocre play. In the tie-breaker, Jangbi rips up Calm and blasts through to the next round (beating Baby a second time). Ro8 beats Flash 2-1. This is big, so I'll come back to it. Ro4 demolishes someone developing a lethal reputation as a ZvP sniper. Yes it's Soo's first trip to the bo5 rounds, but there's no question who was stronger. Finals victory against #2 TvPer after having just beaten #1. Finals were much closer, but this time both players dived deep in their strategic arsenals.
The only other choice for #1 was Flash, again. Similarly, Flash was dominating the PL playoffs, not quite as hard as SWL, but the stage is higher. But here, I think, is the difference. Flash's loss to Jangbi was not a fluke. Jangbi knocked him out. If Fantasy had faced Flash instead of Hyuk in January, there is no question in my mind -- and shouldn't have been in anybody's -- that Flash would have won that series. But here in that situation of putting the two candidates for #1 against each other, Jangbi walked out on top. Flash is still the stronger player overall, but Jangbi has the momentum and the results.
I actually feel that Fantasy's #2 ranking there is perfectly fine. I just feel that the differences between that case and this case are pretty minute and that what pushed Jangbi over Flash on this PR is more of a display of emotion than the numbers.
I mean, Fantasy wasn't a slouch when he crushed Stork (the best PvT player that time) 3-0 on very heavy toss favorite maps (and pathfinder). Jangbi, while posting impressive results over Flash and Fantasy never dominated the same way. As for the opponents, Calm and Baby weren't in very good shapes coming into group play with their respective last 10 vP matchups at 4-6 and 5-5 and 3 of their wins coming off the free falling Free, so it's not like he's gotten himself into a group of death. In addition, SoO forgot that he's best at hydra-busting.
And, of course, Flash is still Flash. With the exception of the loss to Jangbi 1-2 in bo3, he pretty much did everything else right, and is coming into this ranking as number 1... by a very long shot.
Aside from Mortality's very good post I have two things to add that differentiate the situations being discussed. Back then Flash didn't just win a tough series against Fanta, he also 2-0'd him in WCG Korea earlier that day. Flash was 5-2 against Fanta. Also, Flash's injury has to enter into the discussion. Flash's wrist condition is a big question mark. We all know what Flash is capable of, the question is how much will his body hold him back? The doubt, or possibility of doubt has to lower his rank here.
Yeah, but Flash also got eliminated from both leagues the previous month in that earlier ranking, so it's not like he's separated from the pack. He basically had to earn his keep from proleague performance, which he did. Same as Flash right now, where he performed well in the proleague playoffs and final. Fantasy, while wildly inconsistent in those days, was consistently on the power ranks. Jangbi went from nowhere to top because of a single league where he didn't really dominate and he went 0-3 in the proleague playoffs (though he did really well in round 6), and it was highlighted because of the changes in scheduling where MSL and OSL are staggered instead of concurrent. Flash's surgery is kind of a wash. He had limited practice time before surgery and could become better or worse over time.
Still, I can see your guys' points. I take back what I say about Jangbi having no claim to #1.
EPT
we need back to top 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
