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United States20661 Posts
StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage
Part II: Veni, Vidi, Vici, or "That was easy"
by ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/usericons/tlnet_staff.gif) semioldguy and Last Romantic
+ Show Spoiler [Victims] +
Our victims good friends from the other fansites
While waiting in the lobby for Karune to arrive, I took a picture of the press there. GG.net, broodwar.de, pcgamer.com, sc2forums.com, sclegacy.com, and various others: two dozen-odd representatives from all over the world came to wade into battle in the vast unknown world of SC2. They announced a 2v2 tournament to be held at 2PM; semioldguy and I put our names at the top of the signup list.
I played maybe 15-20 games that day, ranging from quick dual-gate manly wins to longer 200/200 hydra/infester stomps. Semioldguy played a few less, since he was busy taking pictures and updating our progress on TL. Regardless, from the first friendly game of the day to the last battle of the tournament, we never once called ‘GG’ to another site. This is our story:
The Pride of War
Last Romantic
First game I played was a PvZ against semioldguy on a two-player ashworld map. The nat was close, guarded by a choke, with a faraway elevated multi and a closer island multi for each player.
I FE’d, but my timing was a bit off – not only do you start with six probes and 10 total supply, but probes mine 6 minerals at a time, which alters build timings somewhat. This trend – ‘normal’ SC1 builds not really working out cleanly in SC2 – was expected, but threw me off a bit.
I scouted him 9-pooling, but defended with cannons. He ran by and picked off a couple probes before I cleaned up the incursion. Around this point I finally realized that my zealot blades were pink, and my pylon was pinkish-red. Brushing aside my annoyance, I progressed into a +1 speedlot build with the odd stalker for defense, forgoing phoenix scout and simply cannoning both main and nat.
Mutalisks came and caused me some disturbance. Stalkers have same range as upgraded dragoon, but are weaker HP-wise; they defended the mutalisks with some help from cannons and my hastily-made cotton-candy archon [which both of us initially thought was a DA]. I imagine that if muta micro were still possible, he could have done more damage – fortunately, Blizzard hasn’t yet figured out how to put that in.
My zealot/stalker/archon counter got lost a couple times, but enough parts of it found enough of his expos and persuaded him to concede shortly after. Some things I noticed: Build timings are going to come out differently. Mutalisks came before +1/speed; FE timings are a bit different – it really is a different game.
semioldguy
After our time in interviews with Chris, Dustin and Sam we headed back to the LAN room to finally get to play some of the game. Sure, we got to play one game before the interviews, in which Last Romantic was the victor. In that first game I only used the units that were also in the original game as I figured I know how to use these units best and to see if they played differently. I wouldn’t make that mistake again. When I was harassing LR with Mutalisks, the control on them was nothing like the original game and I spotted what I thought was a Dark Archon. I went to pick it off with my Mutalisks, but then it attacked them. It was an Archon. LR just happened to be red so it looked like what I would expect a Dark Archon to look like. I didn’t make that mistake again either.
in the rush of seat-grabbing, this image came out rather blurry; we were all too eager to play
Overcome All
semioldguy
When Last Romantic and I returned, we got in on a couple of 2v2’s for practice. Any of the worry that might have been in my mind was washed away after we completely annihilated a couple other teams. I don’t remember much else from these first games other than some crazy macro and that the Phoenix was not nearly as good as I remembered from Blizzcon.
Last Romantic and I then joined a game to explore the Zerg tech tree. We basically thought up unit combinations and threw them at each other to see what would happen and how effective certain things were. We tried the effectiveness of attacks between units, we would send in an estimated attack against an estimated defense and try to modify the attack until we could break it. This is about when we decided that Roaches were ridiculous. Roaches with ling support are easy to get to fast and a powerful early game combination. We set up another ZvZ game in which the premise was LR would try to Roach rush me and I would try to stop it.
Of course knowing exactly what was going to happen I got an early queen and set up enough static defense along with some Zerglings to hold off the first assault. The next wave did a little more damage, but I held that off as well and had teched to Roaches myself (in retrospect, had I gone straight to Hydralisks, which are Lair tech, I would have likely demolished any of the next attacks). The third wave of Roach/Ling was just too much for me to handle. I lost my queen and could not recover as more reinforcements came in. It seemed like a solid strategy. I liked it.
The next few 2v2 matches we worked on a specific build order. The one we came up with is the same build I used for every game in the 2v2 tournament. This is about what the build order ended up as for me each time: Spawning Pool at 13 drones, followed immediately by an Extractor. Keep making drones until I had enough for a second Hatchery. When the Spawning Pool finished I would immediately begin a Roach Den and then back to 14 drones before I would stop drone production for Zerglings. By then I have enough spare resources to make a Queen, in case she was ever needed. When the Roach Den was done I just keep pumping mostly Roaches with a few Zerglings interspersed as well as doing level one upgrades for both units.
LastRomantic
After talking with Sigaty/Browder/Didier, we were loosed on the machines. At this point, my memory grows hazy as to who, exactly, I played – but I remember bits and pieces of the games, and will try to reconstruct them.
1) A teamplay 3v3 in which I massacre all three opponents with mutaling and some assistance from semioldguy. Zerglings are incredibly strong – 100/100 for speed upgrade which also gives you +1/+1 on all your lings = imbalanced. Mutalisks are a trip to control [frankly, cannot be done the same way] but I just made 2 groups [well, 24. They fit on one key] of them and attack-moved with 40 or so lings to clean people up. I didn’t really learn much from this game, except that ling upgrades are quite strong.
2) I cannon rushed someone; it works much the same way as cannon rush in SC1 but has the added bonus of leapfrogging ability [warp]. Pylons are weaker, 200/200, but cannons are stronger, 125/125. The maps had some nifty placement spots for cannons, so rA should still be able to have a ball with that.
3) In a test game with semioldguy, I attempted some semblance of a queen rush – but queens walk way too slowly to have any real attacking capability. I also experimented with roach power, guardians, ultralisks, lurkers, nydus worms, what-have-you. The most interesting conclusion we reached was that roach/ling can stomp all over any early-game defense zerg can put up. I was able to break a queen, 8 swarm clutches (the new, weaker sunken/spore combination) and about 20 lings with a handful of roaches and a group of my own lings.
4) This led us to play a real ZvZ, in which we both roach rushed one another. Roach rush is something like this – first 50 gas to roach den, next 100 gas to zergling speed/+1/+1; keep making lings, save larvae when roach den is about to finish, and make 6 roaches [they cost 25 gas and like 100 minerals each]. Go in and kill people – if it doesn’t work, go for mutalisks since zerg has no real anti-air capability. I won the roach war with slightly better micro [surrounded his first few roaches with lings] but I found roaches to be quite damage-resilient.
5) Sog and I also played a T/P vs Z/P game which was kind of silly. It involved me macroing to 200/200 tank/jackal/thor while he got a crapload of warprays/phoenix. We walked over their paltry forces about 15 minutes in to their exclamations of ‘whoa, that’s a lot of tanks’. Sieging 20 of the new tanks at once is really quite amazing. It can blow lots of shit up. Macro is a tad easy, though. You can queue 10 depots at once, then occasionally just press 3t4j and macro perfectly. I found myself not really making use of my full handspeed. As for whether or not it was an efficient unit mix – I really have no idea. We outnumbered the enemy 10:1; I don’t think it’s really relevant what units you use at that point.
6) There were some other silly macro wins involving hordes of colossi, masses of hydralisks, vast armies of manly zealots – basically I wanted to demonstrate that unit production is too simple: someone like me, who only started playing the game in the morning, should not be able to macro that well [granted, I am a passable SC1 player, but my SC1 macro is weaker than my SC2 macro; something that took me that many years to train should not be eclipsed by one day of gameplay]
7) There was one close game where semioldguy and I faced off against GG.net’s Raistlin and his Terran partner ‘GeneralMengsk’. Due to my badly-placed detection, Raistlin wiped out my nat defence with DTs and then sent in a wave of zealot/immortal, which did a number against my defending jackal/tank. The analogous matchup is somewhat in favor of Protoss now; despite approximately even numbers, he was able to destroy my cc and push me back to my choke. Up in the north, semioldguy was not faring much better, as the opposing Terran’s cliffed tanks and Protoss reinforcements blew apart his natural nexus and sent him reeling.
We fought back with iloveoov-style macro and some secret expansions; eventually I figured out how to make comsats and from then on my tank push combined with semioldguy’s air was inexorable. I split my 200/200 army in half, and didn’t even really need siege to smash through the enemy defences for the hard-fought W.
We decided that semioldguy would roach rush while I'd do whatever the hell I felt like doing as a random player. With that, we went into the 2v2 tournament bright-eyed and ready for anything.
The seats of the victors. Trivia: we had Microsoft Opticals; everyone else had Razers.
Victory after Victory
The Map, 'Belshir':
We couldn’t get a picture of the map itself, as we weren’t allowed to take photos of the screens, but here's a rundown of the four-player map that we used. Spawning locations were in the four corners, on low ground, but no cliff near the resources to worry about. There is a choke between the main and the cliffable nat with two adjacent entrances. There were expansions at clock positions on high ground between the main and nat; you needed to destroy a 2000-hp rock barrier to reach it. Also, there were high-yield mineral expansions at 3 and 9 o'clock, closer to the center than the high-ground expos. The area in the middle was mostly open with some doodads, neutral observatories and such. The map was 128x128, IIRC - a middling size.
Last Romantic
So, the 2v2 tournament. We played four different teams, in four different games – it’s a bit hazy, but I’ll try to remember what happened. Beforehand, a couple other representatives were discussing whether or not TeamLiquid was favored to win the tournament; semioldguy and I smiled and let the games speak for themselves.
semioldguy
This report will be from my own memory and point of view. LR should have a parallel account from his own viewpoint if you want to match ours up to one another. I don’t remember everything from these specific games as there were quite a few games played throughout the day and it sort of all runs together in my mind.
Game 1:
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon.png) TL_semioldguy/R!![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon.png) TL_LastRomantic vs Z/RP team.
Last Romantic
I spawned top right, semioldguy took bottom right, the enemy Protoss was top left, and the enemy Zerg was bottom left.
I opened two-gate upon scouting the opposing Protoss’s 2-gate strategy; the initial zealot skirmishes were fought to a draw; I perhaps had a zealot or two more, but waited for semioldguy’s roaches and lings to arrive before pushing in. We smashed through the defending zealot line with roaches and zealots, while other roaches and lings held off his ally’s reinforcements. Upon destroying the pylon [200/200 hp; destroying them is more sensible now] we went in and massacred his probes.
The zerg attempted a counter at my base with a control group or so of zerglings; I fought it off with 4 stalkers and some micro [I had teched and expanded while killing the other P], losing only one stalker and fending off the attack. From then on, it was a simple case of pumping units off of two bases and attack moving for the win.
semioldguy
As we sat down to play, our opponents groaned about having the misfortune of being paired against Team Liquid in the first round. Intimidation had already been infused without having said a single word. Excellent. That’s just how it should be.
Both randoms spawned as Protoss. I went with the Roach build described above and then we both moved out. Roaches, Lings and Zealots tore through the first player with minimal losses. We poured the surving army as well as the reinforcements immediately into the other opponent’s base and the game was over in less than 12 minutes.
TeamLiquid 1:0 Other Sites
Game 2:
TL_semioldguy/R!TL_LastRomantic vs T/P team.
Last Romantic
I warped in as Protoss again, bottom left, while semioldguy took his Zerg at bottom right. Their Protoss came in top right, while their Terran was top left.
I opened with two gateways at my natural after scouting the Terran’s wall-in and Protoss’ two-gate. With marines and zealots headed towards semioldguy, I opted to counter at Terran’s base with my zealots. Distracted, the enemy Terran neglected to micro at home, leaving his marines outside his wall and failing to repair his depots. Manfully swiping their blue psi-blades, my zealots tore into soft Terran flesh in a manner Reach himself would have approved of.
After the carnage was over, semioldguy was near-death with a queen and two roaches, while I had a half-dozen zealots and a couple stalkers. We sent our forces to the other Protoss, who barely defended with cannons and zealots. I waited a couple minutes to gather up more stalkers, and eventually attack-moved over the remaining enemy to claim domination of the battlefield.
By the end of this game we had a handful of people crowded behind our computers watching us. Since I had a good amount of spare APM, I was semi-chatting with semioldguy through parts of the game. He was more sensible and responded with very curt one-letter answers. Spoilsport.
semioldguy
Last Romantic came out once again as Protoss. This was probably the most intense game. For me it was anyway. I doubt LR had any problems this game. As my Spawning Pool had just finished two marines come walking into my base. I grab all of my drones and surround them. The Marines try to escape, but my drones have them trapped and the Marines can’t do much other than spin in circles. With only a couple drones lost I send them back to work.
I make a couple drones to replace the ones that fell in battle and continue with my build as normal, but with one slight change. I make my Queen early. If the rush is followed up, which I expect it will be, then I will probably need its support. Sure enough about eight or so of both Marines and Zealots come marching in like they own the place, my Queen having just hatched begins making a couple defense structures while the few Zerglings I have hold off the intruders a bit longer. The two defensive structures I make go down pretty quickly and there about six of both Marines and Zealots left. I pull all of my drones again and have a couple Roaches that are just now starting to morph. I send the zealots chasing after a couple unlucky drones while the majority of my forces go in to remove the fragile Marines. My last drone is destroyed just as my Roaches hatch, the Marines are now blood splatters and five Zealots remain. With a bit of micro I get rid of the Zealots.
I have 61 minerals, a Queen, two Roaches, and no drones. I cancel my upgrade and make three drones. During all this time LR had amassed some of his own Zealots and managed to wipe out the cheesing and probably defenseless Terran player. Now that I didn’t have hardly anything to do, I watched as the Terran player got completely owned. LR goes on to attack the Protoss player and I send in my two Roaches. My economy is almost up and running again so I dedicate more of my resources to resuming Roach production. After a couple attempts we break into the Protoss base successfully and claim victory for Team Liquid.
TeamLiquid 2:0 Other Sites
Game 3:
TL_semioldguy/R!TL_LastRomantic vs P/T team.
Last Romantic
We faced up against another undefeated team. While we were waiting for them to finish, I overheard an amusing tidbit from a couple representatives from some site I didn’t know.
Guy 1: I’m glad we don’t have to play Liquid
Guy 2: Yeah, they’re like progamers or something.
Me: *is amused*
That warmed the cockles of my heart. I finished eating a slice of pizza to power my fighting fingers and warring hands while waiting for the game to end; I caught the last bit of the game wherein Raistlin lost to DTs and his partner fell soon afterwards.
We were up against the victors of that game, a T/P team with a predilection for Dark Templar rushes. I actually don’t remember much from this game, either. I do remember that I saw the dropship healing some units and totally freaked out – I didn’t actually know it could heal beforehand. Eventually large numbers of zealots, templars, and stalkers won over the Protoss, after which the Terran conceded.
I really wish I could remember more of what happened. It was the longest of the tournament games, if I recall correctly, and our opponents put up a decent struggle – but TL’s MBS-assisted macro won out in the end.
semioldguy
I went with the Roach build again and LR with whatever he had been doing the past couple games, at least I’d assume so since he kept getting the same race. We pushed against the Protoss force first. After making sure he could not get his natural expansion we were repelled several times out of his main. We maintained an advantage though and kept on the offensive. Eventually we broke through and took the Protoss down.
I wish I could remember more details of this game, but I think LR remembers more here than I do. After we crush the Protoss, the Terran player stands little chance against us and we take our victory. This was probably the longest game we played at just under twenty minutes.
TeamLiquid 3:0 Other Sites
Game 4:
TL_semioldguy/R!![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon.png) TL_LastRomantic vs P/R!P team
This game was somewhat silly. I walled, they did dual two-gate zealot rush and came after me instead of sog. With the assistance of my depots and some marine micro, I beat off twelve zealots with six marines and two SCVs. I pushed out with a tank and a handful of marines; semioldguy’s roach/ling force joined me and we went to smash one of the Protosses.
Though our forces eventually succumbed to zealot/cannon/probe, we gave a good account of ourselves. semioldguy continued to harass with roach/ling while I macroed up a 200/200 jackal/tank/thor army. To my great chagrin, my tanks barely got a round off: they gg’d once my troops came in their massive glory to their front door.
semioldguy
We were the only undefeated team left at this point, so first was pretty much in the bag. We wouldn’t settle for anything less than undefeated though and we went into our last game with supreme confidence. Last Romantic finally got something other than Protoss as he found himself as a Terran player. I sent my first Roach/Ling to help defend against the enemy while LR went straight to metal. The pushing was slower this time around when we got to that point, but it dominated. Both opponents were Protoss, the first one we attacked had several cannons protecting his choke but we forced ourselves in anyway.
As we entered the main there were more cannons, but lings took them out quickly and everything else cleaned up the rest. Since we hadn’t bothered the other guy, I send all my new roaches to his base and scuttle them into the mineral line where they make quick work of all the probes there. I do the same at the first base with my Roaches that are still on assault, marching them past where we are attacking and camp them in the minerals. Neither of our opponents is mining at this point and before long we wave the flag of victory.
TeamLiquid 4:0 Other Sites.
For first place we were awarded with Starcraft 2 t-shirts, Blizzard Entertainment messenger bags, the soundtrack to the original Starcraft and discs with high quality versions of the Zerg trailer and Zerg unit demonstration video.
Part III will be coming up soon: A detailed analysis of gameplay, along with a picture-tour of the new Blizzard HQ.
Love and Luck,
LR + sog
P.S. In case you guys missed these threads:
Ask LR about SC2
Ask semioldguy about SC2
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easy button yeaaaaaaaaaaaah
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wow summaries for each game didnt expect that, nice nice.
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great job guys
the guys from other sites sound worse than me O_O
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Nice summaries! I can't wait for part III!
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I'm so proud of you guys. I don't think I could have stood the shame if you had lost to gamespot or some other site that hasn't touched starcraft in 7 years.
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Canada7170 Posts
Haha you hold the easy button like a pokeball.
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United States20661 Posts
On March 14 2008 14:31 mikeymoo wrote:
Haha you hold the easy button like a pokeball.
Yes, I am secretly a pokemon master.
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United States7488 Posts
I never got any pizza while I was there =(
Also photo tour will probably be part four, there are some things more closely related to gameplay that I'd like to write about and would probably fit best with tomorrow's instead of the tour.
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wooooooot... bring fear into their hearts, teamliquid.... pure ownage
the MBS issue is concerning me a bit though... although I didn't think it would be that big of a deal before, now I am getting worried that it might make macro a tad TOO easy.... hmm
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United States20661 Posts
I surreptitiously ate two slices  once while waiting for Team 3 and another time during our bye round. Yayyy pizza ^^;
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great job 'repping it up' for teamliquid lolol
anyways awesome read 
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
amazing.....
so much to read!
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Thanks for the awesome writeup and gj on the wins!
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bahahahahahaha
LR looks exactly like a korean progamer
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wow amazing, going to read tomorrow, too sick and tired now. Good job though guys, i skimmed through a bit.
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fuuuuuuuuuuuuck this one is huge. AND theres gonna be a part 3 :D
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nicely done. So much ownage here.
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I think they thought Team Liquid was an actual team of progamers - lol
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On March 14 2008 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:
LR looks exactly like a korean progamer
yellow perhaps?
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On March 14 2008 15:27 FuJi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:
LR looks exactly like a korean progamer yellow perhaps?
I noticed the TL photo gallery thread for the first time since it recently got updated, and I saw LR. He is as beautiful as I would expect with his banter against ugly people. I'd say a comparison to Yellow wouldn't be too far off, he's beautiful too.
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During the chit-chat about TL's progamer, you could've said you are a KTF secret agent.
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On March 14 2008 15:34 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 15:27 FuJi wrote:On March 14 2008 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:
LR looks exactly like a korean progamer yellow perhaps? I noticed the TL photo gallery thread for the first time since it recently got updated, and I saw LR. He is as beautiful as I would expect with his banter against ugly people. I'd say a comparison to Yellow wouldn't be too far off, he's beautiful too.
hahahahahhaha he took those pics for a real-life grudge match and never ended up using them as cheerfuls
hahahahahhaha
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United States20661 Posts
On March 14 2008 15:48 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 15:34 Ancestral wrote:On March 14 2008 15:27 FuJi wrote:On March 14 2008 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:
LR looks exactly like a korean progamer yellow perhaps? I noticed the TL photo gallery thread for the first time since it recently got updated, and I saw LR. He is as beautiful as I would expect with his banter against ugly people. I'd say a comparison to Yellow wouldn't be too far off, he's beautiful too. hahahahahhaha he took those pics for a real-life grudge match and never ended up using them as cheerfuls hahahahahhaha
w/e I raped 3-0 in that one anyways.
raped you 3-0 too ^^;;
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On March 14 2008 15:50 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 15:48 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:On March 14 2008 15:34 Ancestral wrote:On March 14 2008 15:27 FuJi wrote:On March 14 2008 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:
LR looks exactly like a korean progamer yellow perhaps? I noticed the TL photo gallery thread for the first time since it recently got updated, and I saw LR. He is as beautiful as I would expect with his banter against ugly people. I'd say a comparison to Yellow wouldn't be too far off, he's beautiful too. hahahahahhaha he took those pics for a real-life grudge match and never ended up using them as cheerfuls hahahahahhaha w/e I raped 3-0 in that one anyways. raped you 3-0 too ^^;;
pfft del was headachy and eliza totally broke my concentration
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Wow. LR, you look like Rufeo(sp?) from "Hook". Badass.
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On March 14 2008 15:27 FuJi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:
LR looks exactly like a korean progamer yellow perhaps?
yeah
like casy/yellow
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Is anyone else completely uninterested in SC2?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
I'm so fucking jealous right now.
You have no idea.
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nice
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haha Great read guys. Congrats on owning everyone and showing that Teamliquid really does own the internet.
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EZ button! :D
there is no escape
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Godamn, that was amazing, totally did not expect you to actually go into as much detail as you both did. Was expecting more of a quick 2 paragraph deal, but you guys delivered, big time. Love the various comments you guys were overhearing, ala, TL must be progamers, how the intimidation factor had already started to set in rofl. I wish you guys could have remembered the actual teams you guys were facing, really actually curious to see how (bad) big name sites like IGN, Gamespot and stuff did, or if they even participated in the actual 2vs2 tourney.
Heh, this is a picture of my facial expression as I saw the post on the front page, scrolled down briefly just to assess the initial length, and was floored by how much text I saw.
After reading these reports, and after watching the recent gameplay vid of the 2 commentators playing, http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/188205.html and how easy the Zerg queen goes down in combat, and how she is hardly worth all the "OMG HERO!!1" buzz word that was getting thrown around, makes me feel really good about how things are currently going. Well, minus the whole healing dropship.
Thanks again, this is the kind of stuff I love. Leave the lore and basically reposting of official vids and stuff to other fansites, this is what I hit refresh every day for.
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You make me proud to be part of TeamLiquid.
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Fantastic ! You lucky bastards you :D. Can you take closer pics of the goodies you won btw?
Great job and good work !
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On March 14 2008 15:52 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2008 15:50 Last Romantic wrote:On March 14 2008 15:48 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:On March 14 2008 15:34 Ancestral wrote:On March 14 2008 15:27 FuJi wrote:On March 14 2008 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:
LR looks exactly like a korean progamer yellow perhaps? I noticed the TL photo gallery thread for the first time since it recently got updated, and I saw LR. He is as beautiful as I would expect with his banter against ugly people. I'd say a comparison to Yellow wouldn't be too far off, he's beautiful too. hahahahahhaha he took those pics for a real-life grudge match and never ended up using them as cheerfuls hahahahahhaha w/e I raped 3-0 in that one anyways. raped you 3-0 too ^^;; pfft del was headachy and eliza totally broke my concentration
You didn't mention that one.... what did she do?
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Ahaha wow that was some good buttkicking! <3 u both for the progamer awesomeness
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Great read! I approve!
As for the MBS issue, I think this article may just have swayed me into an anti. Blizzard either needs to cut it or conjure up some really demanding macro elements elsewhere.
Quick question though: did you feel as though removal of hotkeying groups of buildings would make a difference? MBS only but not MBS hotkeying?
And perhaps the need to press a key for each unit, rather than one key to queue up units in the full group?
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GG
By the sound of it the game seem to be fun as hell.
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United States7488 Posts
On March 14 2008 17:23 Haniba wrote:
Fantastic ! You lucky bastards you :D. Can you take closer pics of the goodies you won btw?
Great job and good work !
I will in the morning, when my camera recharges and I am not dead sleepy.
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South Africa4316 Posts
Nice Sounds like you had a lot of fun!
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Semioldguy looks awfully familiar oO There's a guy on my campus that's the spitting (damn what a weird phrase that is) image of you. I take it that's you to the left, because you look semi-old.
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that was an awesome writeup, thanks
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On March 14 2008 16:21 Live2Win wrote:
I'm so fucking jealous right now.
You have no idea.
Yeah, no kidding.
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really nice write up! =) lookin forward to part 3
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On March 14 2008 14:40 fusionsdf wrote:
bahahahahahaha
LR looks exactly like a korean progamer
Meh- I honestly didn't think that
He would look nice with Reach though ^^
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kids are so easy now-a-days:-P
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Dang
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congratz! great job! i can't wait for the 3rd part gameplay analisys is what i need
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TEAMLIQUID FIGHTING!!!!
I think it's cool that they set up a 2vs2 tourney, but i hope your analysis covers 1vs1 too.
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
MY ENGLISH IS NOT GOOD SO DON'T GET ME WRONG
I WANT TO KNOW IF YOU LET BLIZZARD KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT MBS,
EVERYONE HERE IS HAPPY ABOUT YOU WON 3-0, BUT THAT'S NOT THE REAL MATTER HERE,
I SUPPOSED YOU WENT THERE TO TALK TO BLIZZARD WHAT MOST OF THE PPL ARE
THINKING ABOUT THAT MBS MAKES MACRO SO EASY, NOT ABOUT I WON 3-0
WE ALREADY KNOW YOU WILL WIN
I LIVE ON DOMINICAN REPUBLIC I CAN'T TRAVEL CUZ I DONT HAVE VISA
BUT IF I HAVE THE CHANCE LIKE YOU DO, TO TALK AND PLAY WITH BLIZZARD'S WORKERS, I WILL LET THEM KNOW WHY WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT MBS
AND NOT PLAYING GAME TO SHOW UP HOW SKILLED ARE YOU IN SC2,
I HOPE YOU TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT AND A NOT ONLY TALKING
YOU CAN PUT SOME OF THEM BEHIND YOU WHILE YOU ARE PLAYING SC2
AND THEM CHANCE TO SC1 TO MAKES THEM REALIZE WHAT ARE YOU TAKING ABOUT
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME
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Lol sounds like you had a fun time
Congrats though !
Nothing better than playing a fun game eh ?
But this MBS thing really is worrying me though... Bah whatever. We'll see when we'll be able to have the beta !
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On March 14 2008 23:32 LuisMl8 wrote:
(message in all caps about MBS)
If you read their blogs (or even the last news post) you'd see that they did talk to Blizzard and are already aware of the community's concerns about MBS and that they'd try to find an alternative to make macro challenging, however if they can't they're willing to get rid of MBS.
Anyways, good job guys! Makes me glad to be a part of this community (even if it's a very small part )
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Thank you for showing Blizzard how to abuse MBS.
I really wonder if MBS will hurt micro just as much as macro.
Macro is the first thing you learn a new player because it's easiest to learn and gives the most improvement in the least time/effort.
With MBS this will be even more true. And more units still have the same strength over less units with more micro.
If micro was a more powerful skill to learn then beginner games would be more micro oriented. Now they are macro oriented. One player just has more units.
I wouldn't be surprised that games on the low level will all be attack moving of huge armies into the enemy. Until both players macro perfectly and they have to beat each other by showing more skill in other areas.
Until then, putting all your skill in macro pays off the most.
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On March 14 2008 23:32 LuisMl8 wrote:
MY ENGLISH IS NOT GOOD SO DON'T GET ME WRONG
I WANT TO KNOW IF YOU LET BLIZZARD KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT MBS,
EVERYONE HERE IS HAPPY ABOUT YOU WON 3-0, BUT THAT'S NOT THE REAL MATTER HERE,
I SUPPOSED YOU WENT THERE TO TALK TO BLIZZARD WHAT MOST OF THE PPL ARE
THINKING ABOUT THAT MBS MAKES MACRO SO EASY, NOT ABOUT I WON 3-0
WE ALREADY KNOW YOU WILL WIN
I LIVE ON DOMINICAN REPUBLIC I CAN'T TRAVEL CUZ I DONT HAVE VISA
BUT IF I HAVE THE CHANCE LIKE YOU DO, TO TALK AND PLAY WITH BLIZZARD'S WORKERS, I WILL LET THEM KNOW WHY WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT MBS
AND NOT PLAYING GAME TO SHOW UP HOW SKILLED ARE YOU IN SC2,
I HOPE YOU TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT AND A NOT ONLY TALKING
YOU CAN PUT SOME OF THEM BEHIND YOU WHILE YOU ARE PLAYING SC2
AND THEM CHANCE TO SC1 TO MAKES THEM REALIZE WHAT ARE YOU TAKING ABOUT
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME
lol, it's just humorous to me that you type THANKS FOR YOUR TIME in all caps (along with everything else)
anyway, good points though
I really hope that blizzard saved the replays of the tourney to ANALYZE how other people (especially skilled players like from teamliquid), are playing and "breaking" the game. Really, although the producers and designers at blizzard are awesome at what they do, they generally seem pretty noobish when it comes to competitive gaming... they need fresh gosu players to break their cycle of circle-jerking in designing SC2
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the thing is that blizzard seems to think the stuff from wc3 is good for sc2. if they could just apply the good stuff from sc1 if posssible. like the muta control. the muta issue really bugs me. i'm not even a zerg player...but that kind of thing has to reflect the rest of the micro opportunities through out the game? i hope i'm wrong.
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On March 15 2008 01:52 downtoearth wrote:
the thing is that blizzard seems to think the stuff from wc3 is good for sc2. if they could just apply the good stuff from sc1 if posssible. like the muta control. the muta issue really bugs me. i'm not even a zerg player...but that kind of thing has to reflect the rest of the micro opportunities through out the game? i hope i'm wrong.
I agree with you, and you know what, wc3 in my opinion was crappy. So many skills lost due to the "auto" part of the game. They substituted alot of micro and macro for good graphics, or so it seemed.
I know SC2 wont be that way, to start they didn't limit you to only 5 workers mining at the same time...
What made sc1 so good was every thing that you could do, a thing that i missed going from warcraft 2 to warcraft 3 was the building blocking. I play starcraft over warcraft because of that. maybe i dont know what im talking about, but i hope that blizzard keeps some of the old glitches in. (obby over the missle turret, manner pylons, vesp geyser moving... )
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Why don't people wait until TL people actually play another team that actually has decent macro (for all the claims of macro being "too easy" it sure seemed like none of the other teams figured this out) before juding MBS?
It's kind of funny - everyone is using MBS as an example of why macro is too easy, as if TL was allowed to use it, and their opponents weren't.... If everyone would return to a more OBJECTIVE viewpoint, maybe we'd realize how flawed the argument against MBS is in this article. I'm not saying MBS is necessarily good, I'm just saying that the observations from this article (which is very good overall) do not serve as anything more than pretty tenuous arguments against MBS. Nice job phrasing it in a way that makes it feel convincing though ... a debate teacher would surely love how that was done.
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United States20661 Posts
They did save all the reps, AFAIK.
I was pretty lazy in some of them, tbh :x
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people have to be able to speculate. it's not easy to wait for something objective. if we don't speculate during the prosess, the important aspect of making a hypothesis will be terminated and we will have alot more to answer when we get the game ready.
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Thank you. Both of you. For taking the time to write such an detailed article, for representing TL so well, for keeping us updated with what's going on with SC2, for helping Blizzard better balance SC2 so that everybody gets a better game, for your personal insights. Great job and although not everybody takes the time to say they appreciate it, i'm sure they really do.
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United States7488 Posts
On March 15 2008 01:03 Gokey wrote:
I really hope that blizzard saved the replays of the tourney to ANALYZE how other people (especially skilled players like from teamliquid), are playing and "breaking" the game. Really, although the producers and designers at blizzard are awesome at what they do, they generally seem pretty noobish when it comes to competitive gaming... they need fresh gosu players to break their cycle of circle-jerking in designing SC2
All the replays, of every game, were automatically saved to the computers we played on.
edit: they are also working on making Muta control like it was in the original. In the original it was a bug however so it is taking some time for them to figure out how to do it since the code is much better now.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On March 15 2008 03:02 darktreb wrote:
Why don't people wait until TL people actually play another team that actually has decent macro (for all the claims of macro being "too easy" it sure seemed like none of the other teams figured this out) before juding MBS?
It's kind of funny - everyone is using MBS as an example of why macro is too easy, as if TL was allowed to use it, and their opponents weren't.... If everyone would return to a more OBJECTIVE viewpoint, maybe we'd realize how flawed the argument against MBS is in this article. I'm not saying MBS is necessarily good, I'm just saying that the observations from this article (which is very good overall) do not serve as anything more than pretty tenuous arguments against MBS. Nice job phrasing it in a way that makes it feel convincing though ... a debate teacher would surely love how that was done.
At Blizzcon tons of TL people (who automatically all have good macro :/ ) played against each other. Pretty much everyone agreed that MBS made it too easy. If you read part one of this report Dustin Browder agrees that it is an issue and does current make it easy because there is nothing to fill it....This isn't a debate...if you derail this thread any further you will feel the burn.
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United States5262 Posts
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September 13 2004 22:42. mensrea wrote:
- DO NOT POST ANYTHING IN ALL CAPS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE SCREAMING LIKE A RAVING LUNATIC AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO TREAT YOU LIKE ONE AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
-TLNET TEN COMMANDMENTS
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TEAMLIQUID
FIGHTING
CARAJO!
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The following made me LOL.
Intimidation had already been infused without having said a single word. Excellent. That’s just how it should be.
The easy button, cause I would totally take a pic like that if I could.
On March 14 2008 14:31 mikeymoo wrote:
Haha you hold the easy button like a pokeball.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I am secretly a pokemon master.
and
insert all caps OMG MBS WTF BBQ post
You two really look awesome. No wonder all the other teams cowered in fear. Great post & coverage!
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Wow, nice guys. I'm looking forward to part 3.
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I have to agree that roaches seem a bit OP at this point. They ll definately get some tweaking in the coming weeks 
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good one guys! i think this should cement teamliquid as the top starcraft forum.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
whoo what a long post
Good job Louis and semioldguy
Team Liquid represent!
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On March 15 2008 03:37 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2008 01:03 Gokey wrote:
I really hope that blizzard saved the replays of the tourney to ANALYZE how other people (especially skilled players like from teamliquid), are playing and "breaking" the game. Really, although the producers and designers at blizzard are awesome at what they do, they generally seem pretty noobish when it comes to competitive gaming... they need fresh gosu players to break their cycle of circle-jerking in designing SC2 edit: they are also working on making Muta control like it was in the original. In the original it was a bug however so it is taking some time for them to figure out how to do it since the code is much better now.
That's really good to hear... Oh man, it's gonna be so great watching muta dancing in 3D....
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haha, sounds like ling and roach is sorta like a weaker version of ultra/ling in BW.
roaches are there to take the hit, while inflicting a little bit of damage, while the lings mop everything up.
im not sure though, roaches could do lots of damage, but it would seem unfair since they regenerate so fast?
BTW, how fast DO they regenerate?
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United States20661 Posts
Two roaches cannot kill another roach.
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What about 3 roaches? Is the HP regeneration like...2-3 per second or something crazy?
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United States20661 Posts
it's like 10hp per second. it's wild.
3 can kill one but it takes awhile.
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ya, so mass roach+ling+ultra+infestor seems like a pretty damn good late game combo
i can't imagine a fully upgraded roach...
actually, maybe throw in some lurkers with that mix, and you could burrow them behind retreating enemy units and you'd have yourself a "gg"
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Whata cute post 
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such a good read thanks for the report!
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the roach is pretty damn broken right now it seems... ridiculous for such a low-tier and low-cost creature
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i guess you just have to scout, and then make units witch inflict more dmg so they die. as i've understood it, the best thing is to inflict dmg on the roach with over 90hp pr hit?
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Fry the Roaches with Colossi Yum-yum, tasty
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On March 15 2008 05:12 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2008 03:02 darktreb wrote:
Why don't people wait until TL people actually play another team that actually has decent macro (for all the claims of macro being "too easy" it sure seemed like none of the other teams figured this out) before juding MBS?
It's kind of funny - everyone is using MBS as an example of why macro is too easy, as if TL was allowed to use it, and their opponents weren't.... If everyone would return to a more OBJECTIVE viewpoint, maybe we'd realize how flawed the argument against MBS is in this article. I'm not saying MBS is necessarily good, I'm just saying that the observations from this article (which is very good overall) do not serve as anything more than pretty tenuous arguments against MBS. Nice job phrasing it in a way that makes it feel convincing though ... a debate teacher would surely love how that was done. At Blizzcon tons of TL people (who automatically all have good macro :/ ) played against each other. Pretty much everyone agreed that MBS made it too easy. If you read part one of this report Dustin Browder agrees that it is an issue and does current make it easy because there is nothing to fill it....This isn't a debate...if you derail this thread any further you will feel the burn.
So I'm derailing the thread by responding to what other people were saying in the thread? I thought that's what threads were all about. Oh, I'm derailing it by turning it into a "debate" ... wait I'm not. I just wanted to point something out that was relevant to this particular article.
I don't necessarily think MBS is a good thing ... I just think it's still way too early to judge, and I also just wanted to point out that the article's argument against it is flawed (which it is, from a technical debate standpoint). It doesn't help to use flawed arguments against MBS, when there are plenty of good ones that aren't broken like the "we had MBS and we were able to build more than the opponent which made it easy for us to win" argument.
I also think it's too early to say that there's NOTHING to fill the macro void. When the pros played SC2, they played from the perspective of an SC1 pro. They reserved time to macro like an SC1 pro, and treated the game like it was SC1 with new graphics. There's nothing wrong with that, but it takes time to adjust to the new dynamics of the game. It takes time to discover whether or not someone with ridiculous multitasking can now pull of some insane battle tactics because of the time saved by MBS. That's obviously not going to happen in a few hours, or a few days, especially when everyone is so USED TO playing it like BW. At least give it an adjustment period before saying there's nothing to fill the void.
I also want to reiterate think this was a great article and the authors did a great job with almost all aspects. Thanks for all the information, and congratulations for kicking so much ass.
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Very nice writeup. GG GJ. When is part 3, aka the upcomming post, expected?
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Part 3 WHERE? I'm anxiously waiting for DAYS now. I can't take it anymore!
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United States20661 Posts
Sorry about slow update
things w/ schools are a bit hectic, with all the letters coming out in a deluge :x
Will be out soon! promise!
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United States7488 Posts
On March 20 2008 15:14 Last Romantic wrote:
Sorry about slow update
things w/ schools are a bit hectic, with all the letters coming out in a deluge :x
Will be out soon! promise!
seconded... I finished my last of finals this morning, so I've got some time on my hands now to actually do things I like to do.
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good to know! lookin forward to it!
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Very nice, can't wait.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LastRomantic/PressConf/DSC05156.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LastRomantic/DSC05163.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LastRomantic/DSC05187.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/staff/semioldguy/P1000498.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://www.whozoo.org/Intro2001/jencasil/BigRoachFwza35.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc8/WinFonda/itsintheinternet.gif)
