StarCraft II is a world filled with great individual stories, ranging from MKP's heartbreaking quest for a GSL championship, to MMA's succession of a legendary legacy. Among these, Mvp's is the simplest: He is just the f***ing best.
His teammate Nestea has matched him with three GSL championships, but Mvp surpasses him in every other area. He has reached the GSL finals a total of five times, he's won nearly every international tournament he's bothered to go to, and he changed the way people play Terran, leading to months of his race's dominance.
Yet, for a player who is by some margin the greatest to ever play the game, popular support has been surprisingly hard to come by. In any fierce competition, fans will flock towards winners. But while swathes of forests have been felled to create more room in the massive bandwagon trains that trail behind the FC Barcelonas, Chicago Bulls, and New York Yankees of the world, Mvp's following has been rather modest in comparison. Mvp's problem was that he was the best Terran player when people were sick and tired of Terran, he chose strength and perfection over style and verve, and more than anything, he never, ever looked even mildly challenged by his GSL opponents. Fans migrated to flawed, but nonetheless more human heroes such as IdrA, DongRaeGu, and MC.
The great irony of Mvp's run in 2012's second Code S tournament is by giving up all that defined him, the things that made him the best in the world – his perfection, his invincibility, his racial advantage – he has finally become the hero the people desire. Winning here would further cement his legacy as the greatest StarCraft II player of all time, with an almost certainly unassailable, record-breaking four GSL championships. But that aspect of Mvp failed to captivate fans a year ago, and even now it is not the main story. Now, he is the sole Terran hope as Protoss looks to stamp out all other life, a player who has played his entire tournament with a painfully injured wrist, and gone into every single match as an underdog. In essence, Mvp has gone from representing all that is boring about sports, and come to stand for that which is most great: triumph in the face of insurmountable odds. No one wanted to cheer for Goliath, until Goliath changed his identity.
*****
At some point this season, Mvp's matches ceased to be about skill. We all watch StarCraft with a belief that we can observe patterns, find causes and effects, and thus figure out who should win a given match. All the external data suggested that Mvp had only the slightest chance to win Code S, and that he was hard pressed to advance in every round. It wasn't just us, the pros agreed. NaNiwa wasn't convinced that Mvp was a better player, PartinG thought he could beat Mvp 3 – 0, and even now, Squirtle truly believes that he can win 4 – 0. No, no one believes in Mvp's skill. He's struggled to win a long, macro TvP this entire tournament, and all of his victories seem to be based on gimmicks and the mistakes of his opponents. Only Mvp and his fellow LG-IM players believe in his skill, but what kind of teammates would they be if they didn't?
Yet, after expressing his confidence in beating Mvp 3 – 0 in their semi-final match, PartinG mulled it over for a second, and conceded the chance of a 3 – 1, because "it's Mvp." And therein lies the key to every single match Mvp has played so far, and the key to this Grand Finals.
There's another aspect of high level Starcraft beyond what we can merely observe in games. Koreans simply call it 'mental,' which is similar to what we call 'intangibles' in the west: a blanket term for the things that are difficult to articulate or articulate or define, but we cannot deny the existence of. It's believing in oneself without being overconfident, playing mind games without over-thinking things, and having composure without sacrificing the all-consuming desire to win. Or at least, that's what I think it is. Maybe it would be easier, and less presumptuous to just call it “knowing how to win.”
PartinG was right to make a special exception for Mvp's three-time championship experience, but he underestimated the influence “it's Mvp” would have. Instead of the best Protoss vs Terran player in the world winning 3 – 1, it was Mvp who cruised into the final with that score.
There's no doubt that if Squirtle and Mvp faced each other one-hundred times on the ladder, Squirtle would come out on top by a large margin. There's no doubt that Squirtle is a 'better' player. There's no doubt that Squirtle is riding in on a wave of momentum that we've only ever seen him from Mvp himself in his invincible past.
But it's Mvp.
Squirtle - Walking Down Victory Road
Squirtle's story isn't comparable to Mvp's. While Mvp came into the GSL with expectations of winning a championship due to his Brood War experience and recent deep run in an OSL, Squirtle was just another player on the newly created StarTale that bolstered such names as the finalist of the first GSL season RainbOw and the God of War, the three-time OSL winner, July.
Not to say that Squirtle didn't do well in the start of his SC2 career. In the third Open season, he found himself in the round of sixteen before losing to eventual runner-up Rain in a close 2-1 series. He followed that up with a less than stellar Code A outing, winning his first series against Terious and then falling in the very next round to sC. While MVP was on his run of a lifetime in the first season of Code S, Squirtle was trying to stay alive in the GSL and earn the minuscule cash you got from staying in Code A.
His first real taste of success came in the first GSTL season. Sent out against fOu, a team that had done well in the Open Seasons with various players making it to the top sixteen, Squirtle reeled off the first all-kill in GSTL history and made people finally take notice of his potential. While he wasn't able to show his true talent in the singles competition, his true power was on show in the team league.
In the finals against Incredible Miracle, his team was down 4-3. Mvp, the reigning GSL champion, had vanquished Startale's new superstar, Bomber, in a back-and-forth TvT showdown. With only one player left to get the job done, win two in a row and secure the championship for Startale, they turned to Squirtle with the job to slay not only Mvp, but former GSL champion NesTea as well.
A final that has been a year in the making
On the surface, Squirtle was clearly outmatched. Even with his all-kill against fOu, this was a whole different ball game. Mvp was coming off the most dominating GSL tournament run in history, only dropping a single game against NesTea in the semifinals, and was on the warpath. On Terminus RE, these two players would then go on to show us the best game between Protoss and Terran that we had ever seen at that point and might still be to this day. When a lot would have expected Squirtle to cheese or otherwise try a way to get a quick victory against the GSL champion, he went toe-to-toe with the champion and matched him 50/50.
Every time it looked like Mvp might take the lead for the final time and finish off the pesky Code A player, Squirtle would defiantly hold his ground and push back. What appeared to be a game that was only a matter of time before Mvp won, Squirtle turned into a match where Mvp was scrambling to keep onto his economy against the relentless aggression of his opponent. In the final moments, Mvp tried with everything he had to hold onto his last mining base, but Squirtle's army finished him off and in doing so, secured Squirtle the biggest win of his career.
Yeah, in the final set of the finals, NesTea came and beat Squirtle, but the game that still is remembered from that night is the upstart Protoss taking down the champion Terran in one of the best games we had ever seen.
Since that night, people have been waiting. Squirtle showed on that night he could be the very best Protoss in the world, but his results never backed that statement up. He bounced around from Code B to Code A before falling back into nothingness once again. Even his GSTL results that made him a star weren't nearly as consistent as the first time around. Instead of becoming a DongRaeGu or MMA, a player that rose to the occasion in the GSTL and eventually become a star in the GSL, Squirtle was materializing as another player who did well once or twice in team league but showed nothing after that.
Then, right when it felt like the time to chalk up Squirtle as another pretender, he turned into the most dominating player in the world. After having a long break from Code A and not being able to qualify, Squirtle returned and bested Seal in an extremely close series that saved Squirtle from having to return back to Code B. From there, he didn't look back, beating Inca in the next round and then returning to his old GSTL form by 4-killing oGs while some of his teammates were at foreign tournaments.
With his GSTL form back, his team qualified for the finals in Las Vegas and in doing so, gave Squirtle the chance to play in the open qualifiers for IPL4. Before doing so, after losing a series to Taeja in Code A, Squirtle won his Up and Down group 4-0 in easy fashion and qualified for his first Code S season in what would be a preview for things to come.
The Evolution of the Mental Game
Squirtle was a player, like a lot of people in the GSL, who had a problem with his nerves and mental game. He could, at times, show amazing games and be a monster on the ladder or in online tournaments, but when the pressure was on him to perform, he wouldn't be able to show his best games.
With his trip to Las Vegas, Squirtle not only evolved in the sense of him as a player, but as someone with nerves of steel. Coming out of the open bracket, Squirtle made it through by not dropping a single match, including beating his teammate Ace in the final qualifying round. Going into a Group of Death of sorts against Polt, MC, Puma, and Creator, Squirtle made it out by beating three of the four and making it to Championship Sunday as the only open bracket player to get that far.
His legend would only grow on that Sunday. Coming back from a loss against MarineKing during the GSTL finals, Squirtle would go through Bomber, MarineKing, MMA, and finally NesTea to make it into the finals. In the Grand Finals, Squirtle, coming back from a 0-2 deficit, won three straight to take the first series and force a final Bo5 to see who would come out as the IPL4 champion. Sadly for Squirtle, he wasn't able to continue his momentum in the next Bo5, running out of energy and eventually falling in straight sets to aLive.
A lot like his GSTL finals a year before, Squirtle might have not actually won at the end, but he came out of the tournament as the main focus. His run through the open bracket, the pools and then the championship bracket was something that we hadn't seen before with the caliber of players that Squirtle had to beat along the way. A loss to aLive might have been heartbreaking at the time for Squirtle, but it was only the precursor to one of greatest runs in GSL history.
The Final Stage
The question at hand: Is Squirtle's run so far the greatest in GSL history?
To answer this, we must look back at the other two best performances in GSL before this one. A lot will argue that NesTea's perfect 14-0 run during GSL Code S July is the greatest of all-time, but I would have to disagree. Yes, in terms of perfection, it's the best ever and will not be beat until another player can go through a GSL tournament without dropping a single map. But, when looking at NesTea's opponents, I would have to say it was the third best run we've seen in the GSL:
It started out with NesTea getting a free win since Rain decided to just give away his Code S spot and go live in New York. He would then be put up against July, the player with the worst ZvZ to ever make it into Code S. Follow that up with a round of sixteen against Ensnare, a quarterfinal against another bad ZvZ player in CoCa and then finally a semifinal against HongUn, and you could argue it was the easiest run to the finals any player ever had.
The finals against Losira could be considered tough, with Losira being one of the better ZvZ players at the time, but you also have to remember that almost everything Losira learned was from NesTea himself! Losira tried his very best to beat NesTea, but as the saying goes: NesTea might have taught Losira everything he knows, but sure as hell not everything NesTea knows.
To me, the greatest two runs in GSL history are the current one Squirtle is on and Code S January season where Mvp won it with a 16-1 record. Mvp had a very similar easy run to NesTea's in the early rounds of his championship, but it got a lot more difficult later on. In the quarterfinals he had to play Trickster, considered one of the best Protoss during the time, and who was at the height of his potential before falling off due to lack of practice a little while after this tournament.
He would then have to go through teammate and former champion NesTea in the semifinals where he dropped his only map of the tournament, beating him 3-1. In the finals, against MarineKing, he put on the most impressive final performance in GSL history. Nestea's 4-0 victory might have been more dominating, but in terms of who Mvp and NesTea had to face, Mvp's destruction of MarineKing 4-0 was and is still amazing in terms of how badly Mvp embarrassed MarineKing in that final.
For Squirtle, he started his run by losing the only map of his tournament against MMA. After losing that game, he took the next two against MMA and then another 2-0 victory against Leenock in the same night to advance to the round of sixteen. Both tough competitors, but you can't look past that both Leenock and MMA's worst match-ups, by far, are against Protoss.
Squirtle continued his walk down the royal road by walking over Oz 2-0 and then the fourteen-year-old Code S rookie Maru with another 2-0 victory. Unlike Squirtle's first round opponents, Oz is very confident in his PvP, but Squirtle made him look weak in his strongest match-up. Maru showed good TvP in the round of thirty two, but Squirtle simply outmatched him.
In the quarterfinals and semifinals, Squirtle got his revenge against Taeja for his loss against him in Code A the season before with another sweep, a 3-0 victory. The games were somewhat close, but between his Squirtle Timing Attack and various strategies, Taeja wasn't able to get a win. And finally, in the semifinals, Squirtle didn't have much trouble dispatching Hero with another 3-0 score and stomping his way to his very first Code S finals.
It all comes down to the finals. If Squirtle can take it convincingly, he has the best GSL run in history, no questions asked. If it's close and he still wins, it might still be considered the best, but it would come down to how he won: through long macro games, or if he got most of his wins off timing attacks and MVP won the long macro games in the finals. If that's the case, then MVP's run would still be #1 in my eyes.
It's been a long time coming for Squirtle, but he's finally here. His dream of being on the final stage has come true and with four more wins, he not only will become the first royal roader in Code S history, but also take over MC's spot as the Protoss President. He might not have the ceremonies or the over-pouring charisma that the last president had, but Squirtle wants to bring home the first championship to Auir in over 400 days and will do anything to make every Protoss' dream reality.
He will walk into tonight as a Squirtle, but will be walking out as a Blastoise.
Overlook and Prediction
Mvp has the championship experience, but Squirtle hasn't lost in fourteen straight games. If this was Squirtle's first final of all-time, I would give a big edge to Mvp, but the IPL4 finals against aLive are going to be huge for Squirtle in this series. He's already been put in the worst possible scenario, down 0-2 in a Bo5 in a finals where he has to win two Bo5's to become champion, and Squirtle was able to win three straight to force it to a final Bo5. This might not be the same as Mvp's four trips to the GSL finals, but it should help calm the nerves and let Squirtle know that he's able to come back during a finale against a tough Terran opponent.
Parting might be the best PvT player in the world and Mvp was able to beat him 3-1, but Squirtle is going to be a more difficult test for MVP. Parting loves to go to the late game and break his opponents, but Squirtle isn't afraid to cheese and has the Squirtle Timing Attack in his pocket to use at any time.
Mvp and Squirtle will be quick to the draw and aren't scared to pull out an all-in if necessary, so the winner of this series will come down to who can stop the other when they decide to do said all-in. If MVP, for example, can beat the Squirtle Timing Attack on Cloud Kingdom, then that very well could lead him to a commanding victory. If Squirtle can do what Naniwa and Parting couldn't and force Mvp to play into the late game, not losing more than a game to cheese, he will win this series.
Mvp's wrists are still injured and playing a full seven game series is going to be hell. The longer the series goes on and the longer the games are, the advantage will go to Squirtle. Mvp has the experience and beat two tough Protoss in Naniwa and Parting, but Squirtle will have watched those VODs, know what could be coming and be prepared for those type of strategies.
Either we will crown the first Code S Royal Roader and the first Protoss champion in over a year, or Mvp will capture his fourth GSL championship and put himself in history forever. This sets up for one of the best GSL finals we've ever seen, and if the past is any indication between these two, you will not be disappointed with the games you tune in to see tonight.
Prediction: Squirtle 4 - 3 Mvp
Artwork by fishuu
Writers: Fionn and Waxangel. Graphics and Art: Meko. Editor: Waxangel.
Man, this is the most story-laden GSL finals (and semi's) ever. Storylines make starcraft SO much better. Also very nice artwork from fishuu. Icwuthedidthat, making Mvp use Nidoking XD
Amazing article, but a little late (but the article is BIG so I understand why it's so late now =)) I agree with everything as usual :O And now, you still have to recap last code A day ! It was the best GSL day for some time, would be a shame to skip the recap.
I have to say that there is a pattern here : "Nani will beat MVP, hmmm, not...well, Nani was good, but MVP will have no chance vs Parting, hmmm, not...well, Parting was good, but nothing like Squirtle, MVP has no chance vs Squirtle."
Even if you lose today your run has been amazing, and your legacy has been cemented in sc2 history, but you DESERVE to bring home the 4th championship.
I enjoyed the writeup, nice summation of where both players are now and how they got there. Squirtle's definitely had an amazing run but it's been said before. If MVP can beat PartinG, he can beat Squirtle. Go MVP!
ps, is that a Magikarp mouth on MVP's shirt? lmfao.
Did MLG have to schedule the Spring Arena on the same weekend as the GSL final? With all the digs they've been taking at Gom, it feels like MLG is intentionally trying to sabotage the GSL and create a Kespa/MLG vs Gom/IPL divide. Why? fucking stupid isn't it?
The best run in the history of Code S was definitely Mvp's August run. He went through every single GSL champion not named FruitDealer. He beat MC 1-0, Polt 1-0, Nestea 2-0, HuK 3-0, July 3-1, and TOP 4-1. It marked the beginning of Mvp's reign as most dominant player in the world, a reign that only really ended with his less than stellar performances in 2012.
" There's no doubt that Squirtle is riding in on a wave of momentum that we've only ever seen him from Mvp himself in his invincible past."
Gimmie a break. He got 2nd at IPL4 and now is in the gsl code s finals. That's not even as impressive as Leenock, who won Providence and then was in the finals. What about MKP, with I don't know, 2 MLG wins in a row? Then we gotta look at MVP, who was on a wave of momentum that big for like almost all of 2011. Like WTF, gsl, gsl, gsl, mlg, wcg, wcg, blizzcon. How is that not infinitesimally more momentum than, 2nd place at IPL.
If we were to say every Korean who got second at a foreign event was "on a wave of momentum that we've only ever seen from MVP himself." Then we would be in a scene dominated by STsound and FXOLucky.
I'm in the glorious situation that I din't really care who wins, as I am rooting for both players for their stories I just hope it will be great games. No matter who wins, it will be a historic event. It's either MVP cementing his position as the best sc2 player ever (and coming back to shut up the haters) or Squirtle walking the royal road and giving Protoss it's first win in over a year. Really pumped for the finals, may the best player win!
Shouldn't the most impressive run be MVP's GSL August win? He beat Polt (1x champ), MC (2x champ), Nestea (3x champ), Huk (weak link), July (finalist) and TOP.
On May 19 2012 12:26 forsooth wrote: Shouldn't the most impressive run be MVP's GSL August win? He beat Polt (1x champ), MC (2x champ), Nestea (3x champ), Huk (weak link), July (finalist) and TOP.
You are actually right in terms of hardest road. I'd say it's even with Squirtle's and his one loss one.
Still, Squirtle wins convincingly tonight and he takes the #1 spot. Mostly due to now every series is Bo3.
"There's no doubt that Squirtle is a 'better' player."
It's fine to give your opinion and all but you shouldn't state it as a fact. It's not very intelligent to jump on the hype train of the guy getting recent wins in SC2 and call him the best player in the world.
Naniwa: "I've watched his games, I can win easy." Parting: "I saw how he played vs Naniwa, I can win easy." Squirtle: I saw how he beat Naniwa and Parting, I can win easy." ...
Seen some success from empirehappy and avilo with mass emp or mass nukes in lategame TvP, hopefully MVP uses some of that, or something new should be awesome!
On May 19 2012 12:48 Luepert wrote: Naniwa: "I've watched his games, I can win easy." Parting: "I saw how he played vs Naniwa, I can win easy." Squirtle: I saw how he beat Naniwa and Parting, I can win easy." ...
Haha, it's like in Infinity Blade, one day they'll get him even if it takes several generations xD
On May 19 2012 12:26 forsooth wrote: Shouldn't the most impressive run be MVP's GSL August win? He beat Polt (1x champ), MC (2x champ), Nestea (3x champ), Huk (weak link), July (finalist) and TOP.
How is Huk the weak link there? He is the best of the final three names. TOP had one run and has fallen off the face of the earth. July hasn't done anything as impressive as winning MLG's.
Depending on how Squirtle prepared, he'll either lose 4-0 or 4-1 to sharp timings and maybe a cheesy play. Or he'll win 4-0 or 4-1 by deflecting MVP's strategic builds and crushing him in the macro games. I don't see 4-2 or 4-3 happening regardless of the winning player. One will walk all over the other.
I really hope Squirtle takes it, but my liquibet is on MVP.
On May 19 2012 12:48 Luepert wrote: Naniwa: "I've watched his games, I can win easy." Parting: "I saw how he played vs Naniwa, I can win easy." Squirtle: I saw how he beat Naniwa and Parting, I can win easy." ...
Haha! The best one, Doubters behold, Mvp will win :D
I really think Mvp will be able to take this one, but I expect passionate games none-the-less. Thanks for the preview and also great pic at the bottom.
Can't bet against MVP man, they guy would try to win with playing with his feet only if his hands hurt to much. He studied Squirtle and i am sure he found more weaknesses then the other way around.
So incredibly excited for this finals. Loved the write-up too. Had goosebumps the whole way through reading it. This finals will by far be the best GSL finals so far.
Writeup is good, gets the hype going but I think everyone is underestimating Mvp's skill. Not just his mental game, but his actual game as well. He doesn't look as dominant as he used to but I think he is still a great play mechanically as well as strategically.
On May 19 2012 15:02 zefreak wrote: Writeup is good, gets the hype going but I think everyone is underestimating Mvp's skill. Not just his mental game, but his actual game as well. He doesn't look as dominant as he used to but I think he is still a great play mechanically as well as strategically.
His wrists have forced him to change his style. He can still macro like a boss but now, unlike a year ago, you HAVE to respect the fact he may cheese. MVP now does execute all-ins and hes done so enough that blind builds are propably suicide.
This is a good thing for him IMO as hes is way less predictable. Cheese builds will result in more losses for MVP then is normal macro bludgeon we were used too but it makes him tougher to prepare for thus increasing his longevity. At leasts untill his hands completly call it quits
Damn i thought the final was on Sunday and was just about to head to bed. Then I read this and now I have to drink a shit load of redbull to stay awake! edit: also go go MVP!
On May 19 2012 13:44 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: Anyone know why the finals start so freaking late today?
Isnt this an hour earlier than the normal GSL start?
Yeah technically speaking it's an hour earlier, but with the finals there's always a pre-game show that usually includes kpop group performances, some hype videos, analysis, player intros (maybe pre-game interviews), commercials, charts, graphs, etc.
Usually takes them about 30 - 45 minutes to wrap up the pre-game show.
I don't know why you're always talking about other players as being the 'better' players. This is just not true. Mvp is _way_ better than anyone else. Sole reason he has not continued to ruin esports by winning everything is his wrist injury. But even with this injury he manages to faceroll every self-proclaimed good player although he says he doesn't even practice much at all.
No, squirtle is not better. The only thing he has going for him is a wrist that's not killing him. I hope Mvp can recover after his 4th championship and heal up so he can dominate until flash might take the throne.
On May 19 2012 15:33 decaf wrote: I don't know why you're always talking about other players as being the 'better' players. This is just not true. Mvp is _way_ better than anyone else. Sole reason he has not continued to ruin esports by winning everything is his wrist injury. But even with this injury he manages to faceroll every self-proclaimed good player although he says he doesn't even practice much at all.
No, squirtle is not the better. The only thing he has going for him is a wrist that's not killing him. I hope Mvp can recover after his 4t championship and heal up so he can dominate until flash might take the throne.
On May 19 2012 15:33 decaf wrote: I don't know why you're always talking about other players as being the 'better' players. This is just not true. Mvp is _way_ better than anyone else. Sole reason he has not continued to ruin esports by winning everything is his wrist injury. But even with this injury he manages to faceroll every self-proclaimed good player although he says he doesn't even practice much at all.
No, squirtle is not better. The only thing he has going for him is a wrist that's not killing him. I hope Mvp can recover after his 4th championship and heal up so he can dominate until flash might take the throne.
yes, biggest Mvp fanboy here, but you know I'm right.
I agree. Nonetheless, Squirtle is a really talented and deserving player, I would be really happy to see him take the championship home. I really hope the final lives up to our [high] expectations!
I still remember Squirtle at the IEM World Championship, with this incredible tiebreaker with Socke and Sjow! Ace might have won the tournament but Squirtle made a lasting impression on me!
So well written story, thx! I'm pumped now for the finals. Both should win, but let's hope it's a comebackstory and a nailbiting 4-3 for Squirtle. Protoss need some proud.
But imo MVP being there for the 4th time and beating Parting in the semis is in a much, much greater shape than Squirtle and should take this finals .
My predictions: 4-0, 4-1, 4-2, 4-3 Squirtle wins I dont care , all I do care is that we have a chance to see a great games and great play by both players
I think this run from MVP, while shaky, has been amazing. The fact he's fighting his wrist injury and still coming up with victories against the best. Sure, they're cheesy and all in, but why the hell do people care? It's a game and he's playing to win. It's the execution of the cheeses and all-ins that are what need to be looked at, and they're world class.
There's no doubt that if Squirtle and Mvp faced each other one-hundred times on the ladder, Squirtle would come out on top by a large margin. There's no doubt that Squirtle is a 'better' player. There's no doubt that Squirtle is riding in on a wave of momentum that we've only ever seen him from Mvp himself in his invincible past.
lol at that whole paragraph, talk about personal opinion stated as fact. The statistics on the first picture would say the contrary.
Otherwise nice article, I think regardless of the outcome, Squirtle is the new toss president.
There's no doubt that if Squirtle and Mvp faced each other one-hundred times on the ladder, Squirtle would come out on top by a large margin. There's no doubt that Squirtle is a 'better' player. There's no doubt that Squirtle is riding in on a wave of momentum that we've only ever seen him from Mvp himself in his invincible past.
lol at that whole paragraph, talk about personal opinion stated as fact. The statistics on the first picture would say the contrary.
Otherwise nice article, I think regardless of the outcome, Squirtle is the new toss president.
Yeah, that's the paragraph that I think weakened the article for me, even if it was just to bolster the underdog storyline. It's just not factually accurate.
If it's close and he still wins, it might still be considered the best, but it would come down to how he won: through long macro games, or if he got most of his wins off timing attacks and MVP won the long macro games in the finals. If that's the case, then MVP's run would still be #1 in my eyes.
*Sigh* I wish I could say I didn't see this coming, as I was rooting for Squirtle the whole way, but some of the weird stuff MVP does... he does and gets REALLY lucky with. It's sad to see that for 2 games now we learn that marines kill things faster than stalkers do. 4-0 MVP
On May 19 2012 18:24 Fix637 wrote: MVP is making Squirtle look like a chump. If he can pull of a comeback, it WILL be the greatest run in GSL history.
No kidding, he started off this GSL really shaky, bearly making it out of ro32 and ro16 groups. Really reminds me of WCG Korea where he went 0-2 in a group stage, bun then like 3 huge upsets happened and a tiebreaker happened and he won it, then went on to win the whole thing.
*Sigh* I wish I could say I didn't see this coming, as I was rooting for Squirtle the whole way, but some of the weird stuff MVP does... he does and gets REALLY lucky with. It's sad to see that for 2 games now we learn that marines kill things faster than stalkers do. 4-0 MVP
LOL, are you actually complaining about TvP balance form the protoss side?
Finally lol But that 4-1 prediction could be accurate.
I think MVP is just going to be incredibly aggressive from here. He has a two game lead, so he has lots of room to cheese and use some unpredictable moves.
That battle on Metropolis, WHAT?! Most exciting moment in my GSL history, ever! I never was so shaking, it was just insane. Huge cheers to both players!
Tried, it isn't working either. Searching for a restream now. (Yes, they're frowned on. I did make every effort to watch it from the site, if it's so badly written that it won't let me log on....)
Terran is the only race can do that kind of shit and rarly get punished for that. A joke.
EDIT: When Blizzard finally reduce SCV health on the some level as the other races? its to easy pull all scv and use some to outnumber your enemy, and with mules, u don't even have an disadvantage in the economy - that game showed the a sad/poor state of sc2 itself
it is sad that you can win like that. this last game was just painful to watch. especially after that great comeback with really great moves by Squirtle. sad day for Starcraft imho.
YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!! I literally got on my knees and prayed to God after game 6! MVP pulled through! Truly the best player ever and forever.
On May 19 2012 15:33 decaf wrote: I don't know why you're always talking about other players as being the 'better' players. This is just not true. Mvp is _way_ better than anyone else. Sole reason he has not continued to ruin esports by winning everything is his wrist injury. But even with this injury he manages to faceroll every self-proclaimed good player although he says he doesn't even practice much at all.
No, squirtle is not better. The only thing he has going for him is a wrist that's not killing him. I hope Mvp can recover after his 4th championship and heal up so he can dominate until flash might take the throne.
Gecko4: same. History didn't unfold after all, just another cheese out of the local cheeseshop. Frustration at 200/200, now making spores and counting...
guys don't be silly keep in mind that MVP had been playing for 2.5hours with injured wrists and had to face the most protoss-favored map (after cloud kingdom) as ace game. he had to all-in, it was the only choice. and he did it right, like a champ.
On May 19 2012 20:16 Aenur wrote: Terran is the only race can do that kind of shit and rarly get punished for that. A joke.
Yeah because Protosses never cheese, right? You're a joke, and an idiot on top of that. MVP deserved the win, stay mad that players actually play to win and not to please people like you who drool over 1 hour long turtle fests. Gratz to MVP.
This was the greatest GSL finals ever. Mvp had to do that cheese in order to win. I know that most of the people are sad right now because of that marine-scv all in but its part of the final. Watching a game and have nerd chills is what makes it really good. Congratz Mvp and Squirlte.
after an awesome game 5 and an insane hold in game 6.. rly end like this? terran cheesing? so sad. i so wanted an epic game 7 like DRG vs MMA back in october but nah .. so freaking upset right now..
wow !! MVP won his 4th Final.... And this guy is brave as balls to pull out a proxy 2 rax on the Deciding match !!..
and Squirtle should have expected this ! MVP has been cheesing alot vs Protoss and Atlantis Spaceship is a map that Terrans hates soo much !! He should've expected that !!
Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
Take long break from SC2 to play LoL "Hey cool GSL finals are on, haven't seen those in awhile" What do I get? A Terran cheese out a best of 7 comeback with mules and marines.
Suddenly I remember why I don't pay for the GSL anymore.
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
On May 19 2012 20:26 SovietBirthday wrote: Take long break from SC2 to play LoL "Hey cool GSL finals are on, haven't seen those in awhile" What do I get? A Terran cheese out a best of 7 comeback with mules and marines.
Suddenly I remember why I don't pay for the GSL anymore.
you've obviously missed games 5 and 6 ;-) also you play league of retards, i don't think you're really entitled to an opinion LOWL
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
Yes,You are the only one
Actually not, the game was very exciting because Squirtle had a chance for a long time. But the RESULTS =P No first royal road, a winning automaton taking home his 4th GSL, and that with a cheese. Tastosis talked about mold on the bread, that's what this is to me. I'm annoyed to boot, can't help it.
That was one of thee if not thee greatest final i have ever seen, and game 5 was one of the most entertaining games ever, game 6 and, ofc game 7 were up there also, it was a final i want to tell my kids about someday.
Even though game seven was cheesy as hell, it was still a nail biting, sitting on the edge of my seat game that blew my mind. Hopefully you guys enjoyed it as much as i did =D.
On May 19 2012 20:29 Selkie wrote: How does master + protoss players lose to a marine/SCV all-in? hide 3-4 probes, and micro the crap out of a stalker or two.
(I used to run the cheese in question a LOT, and after a certain point, protoss could out-micro the terran).
I wasn't able to see the game in question though.
Squirtle repelled the first push, and then he went out with two stalkers/zealot to find the rax. He found them, started to attack them, and then Mvp flanked him with like 5/6 rines from behind and a couple in front, and was able to pick off a zealot and a stalker for free. After that, it was like two stalkers vs. 15 rines and a few scvs + bunker in his base.
A more basic explanation is: Yes, you can outmicro a Master's Terran as a Master's Protoss, but that's completely different than outmicroing Mvp. There was micro, there were mind games, there were clutch moves done under pressure... it really was a beautiful thing to watch.
But it doesn't stop me from wishing Squirtle could have pulled it out :p
that was the most intense finals. game 5, best game of all time in sc2 and game 7 (dont kno wat all the anti cheese fanboys are crying about) was prolly the most exciting, tense and nerve racking of the entire series. gj to MVP and squirtle will be back.
On May 19 2012 20:26 SovietBirthday wrote: Take long break from SC2 to play LoL "Hey cool GSL finals are on, haven't seen those in awhile" What do I get? A Terran cheese out a best of 7 comeback with mules and marines.
Suddenly I remember why I don't pay for the GSL anymore.
Its your first post, you play LoL, and you except people to listen to your opinion? gl with that.
come on guys they gave u plenty of great games and cheesing is part of the game too. You can not tell me that you were not nervous while you were watching that last game.
On May 19 2012 20:23 DruidzShift wrote: MVP was my favorite player before this season beacuse of his incredible macro,Now he is just a cheesy player.First NaNi and now Squirtle )=
MVP has been my favorite player since before his carpal tunnel started severely limiting his play. Now I'm 10x more of a fan because he found a way to be the best player in the world despite such a huge disadvantage, and he used it successfully on 3 STQ protosses in a row repeating maps and they still couldn't catch on enough to stop him.
How can you like a player that cheese over a 40 min long epic macro game whit BC,Ghost,MS,Void rays + an epic archon toilet?
How can you don't like the guy,, that is an insane mindgame !! And everyone here has to expect at least 1 cheese from MVP,, he just did it in the final game when it is the least likely time to do it !! even tastosis didn't expect that (even though the last map is Atlantis Spacebear). and that last game was nail bitting right off the bat !!
On May 19 2012 20:23 DruidzShift wrote: MVP was my favorite player before this season beacuse of his incredible macro,Now he is just a cheesy player.First NaNi and now Squirtle )=
MVP has been my favorite player since before his carpal tunnel started severely limiting his play. Now I'm 10x more of a fan because he found a way to be the best player in the world despite such a huge disadvantage, and he used it successfully on 3 STQ protosses in a row repeating maps and they still couldn't catch on enough to stop him.
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
Remove mule and think about that game again....
Yep remove that mule and Squirtle wins. Sad how the series went out.. Who really cares if you know the map is bad for the match up, suck it up and play out the game and make it a good final and show your better by forgetting about the little map advantages. Prove that those factors dont matter and that your the better player that doesnt need those kind of excuses.
The only game out of this year in any tournament that I'd rewatch that had something like that happen was HuK vs Naniwa at MLG. Because that game actually showed talent from both players. This 7th game on the other hand seems to make it look like MVP was scared to face Squirtle in a straight up macro game again "because the map is better for protoss". If thats the excuse to cheese then its a tainted win and you just look bad for it.
Naniwa cheeses in a meaningless game. MVP goes on and cheeses cause of some disadvantage to his race on a certain map and there will be no reprocussions for it. Could have been an all round good series for a Final but it had to end like this.
I hate it how people talk smack about MVP because he cheesed in the last game. It's just a strategy ... He gambled and took a risk, but he still won. Don't forget about the other games MVP won with pure macro. He isn't a cheesy player, you just got to have a ton of strategies when you go into a BO7, and it was really dangerous of him to do this one in the last match.
Well played by MVP, too bad for Squirtle since he made an epic comeback. Really enjoyed watching the finals.
The game with the battlecrusiors was the sickest game I have ever seen to bad I wont be able to watch it again cuz I cant pay for the GSL,but at least I cought such epicnes live. Was a bit dissapointed at the last game where MVP just cheesed and squirtle cronod probes >.< and lost 2 units but its was still epic non the less. I thought it was really funny how MVP was so happy after that win when squirtle may have won in a straight up game.
Not really deserved I would say by MVP unless he managed to beat squirtle mid or late game.
So when will people know how to hold a 2 rax? Idk.
How can you like a player that cheese over a 40 min long epic macro game whit BC,Ghost,MS,Void rays + an epic archon toilet?
How can you don't like the guy,, that is an insane mindgame !! And everyone here has to expect at least 1 cheese from MVP,, he just did it in the final game when it is the least likely time to do it !! even tastosis didn't expect that (even though the last map is Atlantis Spacebear). and that last game was nail bitting right off the bat !!
its not about that. He had balls to do it on the final game, but squirtle was prepared for it. There is no doubt that with the last map being Atlantis, and after 6 long games, he/his teammates would have predicted a highly possible cheese. He scouted MVP's base, and defended properly but then due to a few small mistakes he lost to an all-in he had already defended. It was a disappointing last game for so many people because Squirtle was making the comeback of the century, back from a 0-3 deficit against MV fucking P on the biggest starcraft stage there is. AND he holds the first wave of an all-in only to fall to all-in number 2.
The cheese was not unstoppable. It was not unpredictable. People are disappointed and mad not because of that, but because Squirtle reacted so well, and 1 small mistake in the moment of victory crushed such an amazing comeback and an amazing season for him.
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
Remove mule and think about that game again....
Yep remove that mule and Squirtle wins. Sad how the series went out.. Who really cares if you know the map is bad for the match up, suck it up and play out the game and make it a good final and show your better by forgetting about the little map advantages. Prove that those factors dont matter and that your the better player that doesnt need those kind of excuses.
The only game out of this year in any tournament that I'd rewatch that had something like that happen was HuK vs Naniwa at MLG. Because that game actually showed talent from both players. This 7th game on the other hand seems to make it look like MVP was scared to face Squirtle in a straight up macro game again "because the map is better for protoss". If thats the excuse to cheese then its a tainted win and you just look bad for it.
Naniwa cheeses in a meaningless game. MVP goes on and cheeses cause of some disadvantage to his race on a certain map and there will be no reprocussions for it. Could have been an all round good series for a Final but it had to end like this.
Remove marines and guess who will win?
This cheese from MVP was amazing, I'd personally liked it a lot, don't understand why U people are so attached to this 35 minutes games from which 25 minutes is just boring macro and macro and 10 minutes is fun. This last game was non stop excitement!
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
Remove mule and think about that game again....
Yep remove that mule and Squirtle wins. Sad how the series went out.. Who really cares if you know the map is bad for the match up, suck it up and play out the game and make it a good final and show your better by forgetting about the little map advantages. Prove that those factors dont matter and that your the better player that doesnt need those kind of excuses.
The only game out of this year in any tournament that I'd rewatch that had something like that happen was HuK vs Naniwa at MLG. Because that game actually showed talent from both players. This 7th game on the other hand seems to make it look like MVP was scared to face Squirtle in a straight up macro game again "because the map is better for protoss". If thats the excuse to cheese then its a tainted win and you just look bad for it.
Naniwa cheeses in a meaningless game. MVP goes on and cheeses cause of some disadvantage to his race on a certain map and there will be no reprocussions for it. Could have been an all round good series for a Final but it had to end like this.
And lose $30,000? Put yourself in his damn shoes. He lost some tough games and atlantis spaceship is EXTREMELY protoss favoured thanks to it being a huge map like cloud kingdom. Seriously, at one point squirtle had ALREADY defended it and should have easily won the game from there, but he fumbled and lost his stalkers and threw the game. Squirtle didn't deserve to win it after that sloppy play, just like MVP didn't deserve to win game 6 with such a desperate all-in attempt.
You don't have to watch the game, it's easy for you to say "keep your honour" and all other bullshit like that when it's actually a much huger coin-toss for terran since a 9 probe scout and half-decent micro and crisis-management should clean up that kind of cheese. Maybe one day when you've got a difference between earning 50k and 20k knowing it's going to be hard to play out a build you prepared (siege tank rax which is already a pretty risky style) which got trashed the last game you'll realize what it means to do what it takes to win, even if it takes a coin-toss.
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
Remove mule and think about that game again....
Yep remove that mule and Squirtle wins. Sad how the series went out.. Who really cares if you know the map is bad for the match up, suck it up and play out the game and make it a good final and show your better by forgetting about the little map advantages. Prove that those factors dont matter and that your the better player that doesnt need those kind of excuses.
The only game out of this year in any tournament that I'd rewatch that had something like that happen was HuK vs Naniwa at MLG. Because that game actually showed talent from both players. This 7th game on the other hand seems to make it look like MVP was scared to face Squirtle in a straight up macro game again "because the map is better for protoss". If thats the excuse to cheese then its a tainted win and you just look bad for it.
Naniwa cheeses in a meaningless game. MVP goes on and cheeses cause of some disadvantage to his race on a certain map and there will be no reprocussions for it. Could have been an all round good series for a Final but it had to end like this.
Remove mules and there would be 0 terrans in gsl. I think the point of the game is to win, and if you have a severe wrist disability that limits you, sometimes the only way to win is to play quicker games. Think about it, Squirtle does not have a wrist condition, so he can choose to cheese or not to whenever he wants, MVP sometimes has to, that's not good. Comparing Naniwa cheese to this is so fucking retarded serriously 1. Naniwa was 0-3 with no chance of advancing. MVP was 3-3 with good chance of winning. 2. Naniwa left the game b/c it failed. MVP's failed, but he kept trying, obviously he actually wanted to win, MVP didn't cheese in game 7 because he wanted to go home and the game didn't mean anything. Those games are as far apart as is possible in any way. Naniwa's was the most meaningless game in gsl history, MVP's was the most meaningful game in gsl. Also look at it, MVP 1 rax expod 5/7games, that's a very economic record, he only cheesed b/c he knew it would be a good mindgame, that's what separates good players from great players, quick calls on mind games. Also you think he should not cheese just because "the map is better for protoss." Well yeah, thats like accusing someone of being a cheeser for 4-gating on Tal'darim. Newsflash, some maps are better for certain strats, and some strats will give you an advantage if you play them at a certain point in a best of 7. MVP knows this b/c he's been in 5 best of 7's and has it all worked out. If you really can't recognize the strategic genius behind MVP's cheese an think it's like Naniwa's proberush, please leave.
On May 19 2012 20:42 Shanyo wrote: I hate it how people talk smack about MVP because he cheesed in the last game. It's just a strategy ... He gambled and took a risk, but he still won. Don't forget about the other games MVP won with pure macro. He isn't a cheesy player, you just got to have a ton of strategies when you go into a BO7, and it was really dangerous of him to do this one in the last match.
Well played by MVP, too bad for Squirtle since he made an epic comeback. Really enjoyed watching the finals.
this. this sooo much. cheese WON THE GSL GRAND FINALS. literally the BEST players in the WORLD played with/against cheese. when will people stop discounting cheese as 'not a deserved win'. these were some of the best games of starcraft i have ever seen in 10 years of watching this game. how can people be so ignorant as to call it 'luck'. this was the highest level of pure skill imaginable and i could not hope for anything better. just because it does not fit your imaginary 'standard' gameplay, does not mean the goal of the game is not to defeat your opponent. Grats to MVP and although it is too bad squirtle didn't win with such a comeback, the fact is he made a HUGE impression and got second place which is in itself quite an accomplishment. amazing finals, awesome casters, and really a great night for e-sports. gg :D
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
Remove mule and think about that game again....
Yep remove that mule and Squirtle wins. Sad how the series went out.. Who really cares if you know the map is bad for the match up, suck it up and play out the game and make it a good final and show your better by forgetting about the little map advantages. Prove that those factors dont matter and that your the better player that doesnt need those kind of excuses.
The only game out of this year in any tournament that I'd rewatch that had something like that happen was HuK vs Naniwa at MLG. Because that game actually showed talent from both players. This 7th game on the other hand seems to make it look like MVP was scared to face Squirtle in a straight up macro game again "because the map is better for protoss". If thats the excuse to cheese then its a tainted win and you just look bad for it.
Naniwa cheeses in a meaningless game. MVP goes on and cheeses cause of some disadvantage to his race on a certain map and there will be no reprocussions for it. Could have been an all round good series for a Final but it had to end like this.
Remove marines and guess who will win?
This cheese from MVP was amazing, I'd personally liked it a lot, don't understand why U people are so attached to this 35 minutes games from which 25 minutes is just boring macro and macro and 10 minutes is fun. This last game was non stop excitement!
Are you CombatEx ? And btw, calling a 2 rax all-in an "amazing cheese by MVP" ... seriously ?
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
Remove mule and think about that game again....
Yep remove that mule and Squirtle wins. Sad how the series went out.. Who really cares if you know the map is bad for the match up, suck it up and play out the game and make it a good final and show your better by forgetting about the little map advantages. Prove that those factors dont matter and that your the better player that doesnt need those kind of excuses.
The only game out of this year in any tournament that I'd rewatch that had something like that happen was HuK vs Naniwa at MLG. Because that game actually showed talent from both players. This 7th game on the other hand seems to make it look like MVP was scared to face Squirtle in a straight up macro game again "because the map is better for protoss". If thats the excuse to cheese then its a tainted win and you just look bad for it.
Naniwa cheeses in a meaningless game. MVP goes on and cheeses cause of some disadvantage to his race on a certain map and there will be no reprocussions for it. Could have been an all round good series for a Final but it had to end like this.
lol why is protoss using HT and Colossus just because some disadvantage of gateway units. use ur brain before u post
Anything written about this GSL series that fails to mention the words "best 'best of 7 series' ever" will and should be found hopelessly wanton. We saw unarguably (if tournament showings and monetary earnings mean anything) the best Terran and perhaps best SC2 player to date display his caginess, brilliant micro, and poise in executing game-winning strategies pull down yet another GSL title.
What we also witnessed was a Protoss whose skill (while unquestioned for a long time) had finally gained himself entry into the finals of the largest and most grueling e-sports tournament the world can offer. After all, it is widely accepted the most difficult part is winning admission into Code-A. The competition is vast and unforgiving. I will not get into the pros and cons of a top tier whose retention rate allows for a system where the pros are given the financial luxury to remain focused solely on SC2 as this has been analyzed before and far more adroitly than I would be able to turn out.
However, I would like to point to out that this series is not only a real turning point for GSL (as in it did not end 4-0, 4-1, or a lopsided 4-2), but also it may represent a transition in SC2 tournament play as we know it. Broodwar pros have for years understood the game from its opening moments to what their true "super late-game" compositions and strategies should look like. Therefore it is all too apt that Tasteless and Artosis mentioned in their cast of the Finals the back and forth "cheesy" "1-base" strategies that were employed at the start of competitive SC2 play. We have come a long way from Steppes of War!!! And how thankful we should be. Could it be that tonight’s games represented the first real view into the full scope of competitive SC2 games? When, for example, has LG-IM MVP ever been faced with a map and an opponent that forces him into the 2nd hour of a single game? When would that same opponent be able to shirk the pressure of 20+ ghosts with an accompanying number of BATTLECRUISERS with 3/3 upgrades and planetary fortresses gumming up the ground game to come out to a victory using an archon toilet in circus with void rays and stalkers (traditionally Protoss is terrible in the air with the exception of White-Ra’s unconventional Carrier play)?
I for one can only hope that we can use the momentum and adrenaline rush of such an exciting final to project Starcraft II to a new level. I know I was awake until 8 AM local time to view the series, and I do not regret it. I believe I was there to witness a paradigm shift. Strangely enough MVP was able to take the 7th and deciding match using a cheese build he’d employed often in his return to GSL greatness and perhaps immortality. Still the series shows the evolution of the game SC2 to a point Broodwar took a decade to reach, and we can all I suspect hope for only more amazing play and with it an amazing response on the part of the fan base.
Are you CombatEx ? And btw, calling a 2 rax all-in an "amazing cheese by MVP" ... seriously ? [/QUOTE] if u think that game was bad then u really need open ur eyes mate, both player played well Unlike Cattlecruiser and A MOVE+ storm rape.
On May 19 2012 21:01 Larkin wrote: I missed it, what was the cheese? proxy 2 rax?
yes it is, it is best game in the series IN my opinion
i dont mind it but the best game in the series? lol
Not the best game of the series gameplay wise but spectator wise it was amazing because of the buildup, going 3-3. final game Mvp goes for a ballsy cheese and BARELY pulls off the win.
It appears many people are missing some true beauty, that is starcraft, in what just happened. It was without question the best series of starcraft 2 I've ever seen. People are focusing so much on 1 game with cheese, whining about mules, and missing the beauty that game had.
All of the history leading up to that game and mvp goes for cheese. But what most people missed is that SQUIRTLE DEFENDED IT SUCCESSFULLY AND WAS AHEAD!. MVP won that game because he executed a perfectly timed flank to catch the stalkers and zealot out of position, when they were trying to kill the barracks. Squirtle could have sat back getting sentries, being way ahead, and forced a macro game.
But MVP played amazingly well, and so did Squirtle. It was a nail biting end to some amazing esports. After 6 macro games, some of which were a sight to behold, the gsl finals came down to clutch micro and decision making. This is Starcraft.
On May 19 2012 21:11 Reborn8u wrote: It appears many people are missing some true beauty, that is starcraft, in what just happened. It was without question the best series of starcraft 2 I've ever seen. People are focusing so much on 1 game with cheese, whining about mules, and missing the beauty that game had.
All of the history leading up to that game and mvp goes for cheese. But what most people missed is that SQUIRTLE DEFENDED IT SUCCESSFULLY AND WAS AHEAD!. MVP won that game because he executed a perfectly timed flank to catch the stalkers and zealot out of position, when they were trying to kill the barracks. Squirtle could have sat back getting sentries and been way ahead, and forced a macro game.
But MVP played amazingly well, and so did Squirtle. It was a nail biting end to some amazing esports. After 6 macro games, some of which were a sight to behold, the gsl finals came down to clutch micro and decision making. This is Starcraft.
great point thats why i loved last game! squirtle thought mvp gave up start to overextent himself. i loved mvp spirit of never gave up he always have a back up plan. btw squirtle micro was amazing too. it was awesome game, that cheese game is way better than watching colossi+storm or than bc turtle game
On May 19 2012 20:26 althaz wrote: Am I the only one who thought Game 7 was actually AWESOME? Cheese that's really close to working/not working for like three minutes is EXCITING to me, it was exciting in Broodwar and it's exciting in SC2. Would I watch and re-watch the game for the pure skill on display? Of course not, but that doesn't make it any less awesome when watched live (IMO).
Remove mule and think about that game again....
Yep remove that mule and Squirtle wins. Sad how the series went out.. Who really cares if you know the map is bad for the match up, suck it up and play out the game and make it a good final and show your better by forgetting about the little map advantages. Prove that those factors dont matter and that your the better player that doesnt need those kind of excuses.
The only game out of this year in any tournament that I'd rewatch that had something like that happen was HuK vs Naniwa at MLG. Because that game actually showed talent from both players. This 7th game on the other hand seems to make it look like MVP was scared to face Squirtle in a straight up macro game again "because the map is better for protoss". If thats the excuse to cheese then its a tainted win and you just look bad for it.
Naniwa cheeses in a meaningless game. MVP goes on and cheeses cause of some disadvantage to his race on a certain map and there will be no reprocussions for it. Could have been an all round good series for a Final but it had to end like this.
Remove marines and guess who will win?
This cheese from MVP was amazing, I'd personally liked it a lot, don't understand why U people are so attached to this 35 minutes games from which 25 minutes is just boring macro and macro and 10 minutes is fun. This last game was non stop excitement!
Are you CombatEx ? And btw, calling a 2 rax all-in an "amazing cheese by MVP" ... seriously ?
I would. Against one of the best, might be THE best protoss and you do 2rax cheese in the last game and Squirtle knows it and still manage to win barely. I might say it was one of the best matches today.
How can you like a player that cheese over a 40 min long epic macro game whit BC,Ghost,MS,Void rays + an epic archon toilet?
How can you don't like the guy,, that is an insane mindgame !! And everyone here has to expect at least 1 cheese from MVP,, he just did it in the final game when it is the least likely time to do it !! even tastosis didn't expect that (even though the last map is Atlantis Spacebear). and that last game was nail bitting right off the bat !!
its not about that. He had balls to do it on the final game, but squirtle was prepared for it. There is no doubt that with the last map being Atlantis, and after 6 long games, he/his teammates would have predicted a highly possible cheese. He scouted MVP's base, and defended properly but then due to a few small mistakes he lost to an all-in he had already defended. It was a disappointing last game for so many people because Squirtle was making the comeback of the century, back from a 0-3 deficit against MV fucking P on the biggest starcraft stage there is. AND he holds the first wave of an all-in only to fall to all-in number 2.
The cheese was not unstoppable. It was not unpredictable. People are disappointed and mad not because of that, but because Squirtle reacted so well, and 1 small mistake in the moment of victory crushed such an amazing comeback and an amazing season for him.
Exactly !!! MVP has the balls to do that,, and that needs some props
Mvp puts the championship on the line when he did that. It's not like he did it on the 4th game where he got nothing to lose if the cheese fails. Give Mvp the credit he deserves and don't say he don't deserve it.
On May 19 2012 20:41 Random_Guy09 wrote: Yep remove that mule and Squirtle wins. Sad how the series went out.. Who really cares if you know the map is bad for the match up, suck it up and play out the game and make it a good final and show your better by forgetting about the little map advantages. Prove that those factors dont matter and that your the better player that doesnt need those kind of excuses.
The only game out of this year in any tournament that I'd rewatch that had something like that happen was HuK vs Naniwa at MLG. Because that game actually showed talent from both players. This 7th game on the other hand seems to make it look like MVP was scared to face Squirtle in a straight up macro game again "because the map is better for protoss". If thats the excuse to cheese then its a tainted win and you just look bad for it.
Naniwa cheeses in a meaningless game. MVP goes on and cheeses cause of some disadvantage to his race on a certain map and there will be no reprocussions for it. Could have been an all round good series for a Final but it had to end like this.
did you actually just compare MVP's brilliant game 7 to Naniwa's incredibly disrespectful probe rush? What the hell?
Having to read through another TL article, trying to explain that squirtle winning his first GSL is way more impressive than Nestea winning back-to-back 4-0 finals without dropping a single map in between... >_<
TL Writers, try not letting the hype get to your heads.
Mother of god, is the average age of Teamliquid posters below 13? What is with all these people trash talking Mvp for no reason at all than for playing the game, and being the best at it?
I thought Teamliquid prided itself in its moderation, good job.
On May 19 2012 21:11 Reborn8u wrote: It appears many people are missing some true beauty, that is starcraft, in what just happened. It was without question the best series of starcraft 2 I've ever seen. People are focusing so much on 1 game with cheese, whining about mules, and missing the beauty that game had.
All of the history leading up to that game and mvp goes for cheese. But what most people missed is that SQUIRTLE DEFENDED IT SUCCESSFULLY AND WAS AHEAD!. MVP won that game because he executed a perfectly timed flank to catch the stalkers and zealot out of position, when they were trying to kill the barracks. Squirtle could have sat back getting sentries and been way ahead, and forced a macro game.
But MVP played amazingly well, and so did Squirtle. It was a nail biting end to some amazing esports. After 6 macro games, some of which were a sight to behold, the gsl finals came down to clutch micro and decision making. This is Starcraft.
great point thats why i loved last game! squirtle thought mvp gave up start to overextent himself. i loved mvp spirit of never gave up he always have a back up plan. btw squirtle micro was amazing too. it was awesome game, that cheese game is way better than watching colossi+storm or than bc turtle game
Signed
This series was so amazing! And what a final game - if i had to scrips a final it had to look like this. It was really a fight. I was sad to see squirtle lose in the end even as I was for MVP. Both put such an amazing and etertaining series that should be rewarded.
Really nice article but this part about it really annoyed me... "his racial advantage" im assuming you mean racial advantage as in korean and i really think that is pretty disrespectful thing to say....its like you are saying he is born with an advantage over all other non-koreans which is obviously wrong, koreans aren't born naturally good at starcraft contrary to popular belief, they just practice harder and have had a lot of experience with starcraft brood war...just saying you shouldn't make statements like this it is kind of degrading
On May 20 2012 00:17 Skiblet wrote: Really nice article but this part about it really annoyed me... "his racial advantage" im assuming you mean racial advantage as in korean and i really think that is pretty disrespectful thing to say....its like you are saying he is born with an advantage over all other non-koreans which is obviously wrong, koreans aren't born naturally good at starcraft contrary to popular belief, they just practice harder and have had a lot of experience with starcraft brood war...just saying you shouldn't make statements like this it is kind of degrading
I am assuming your first language is not English...
Is it appropriate that when i found out teh results of the match, I was listening to the song "I'm alive" when the lyrics "If you try to deny me, I'll never die" came on?
Depressing finals as a toss. 8 GSLs and counting. Also, loosing game 7 against a 2-rax... ouch. I feel bad for Squirtle. Still, well played by MVP, especially games 1-3.
On May 19 2012 20:16 Aenur wrote: Terran is the only race can do that kind of shit and rarly get punished for that. A joke.
Yeah because Protosses never cheese, right? You're a joke, and an idiot on top of that. MVP deserved the win, stay mad that players actually play to win and not to please people like you who drool over 1 hour long turtle fests. Gratz to MVP.
I didn't say anything about cheesing. This kind of play went beyond the ordinary cheese in my opinion. When did you ever see a Protoss or Zerg player pull off 90% and later 100% of their workers and can be confident to go away with that? That's a basic issue in sc2 at the moment. That is way much worse than just any cannonrushing/6 pool/ proxy play - build. I honestly don't know how to solve that in the best way, but maybe reducing scv health to an equal level of the other races workers would force terrans to think over that strats. Besides that I recommend you not random calling people "idiot" especially not in this forum^^ It also doesn't leave a good picture about your personality.
There's no doubt that if Squirtle and Mvp faced each other one-hundred times on the ladder, Squirtle would come out on top by a large margin. There's no doubt that Squirtle is a 'better' player. There's no doubt that Squirtle is riding in on a wave of momentum that we've only ever seen him from Mvp himself in his invincible past.
MVP pretty much took these words and shoved it back down the OP's throat. I imagine that the next time some fanboy thinks of writing a preview so blatantly biased against MVP he'll think twice.
Squirtle better player, MVP better race, let's hope Blizzard actually nerfs terran now, +5 sec racks building time, lol. Funny how to make people stop whining about 4gate they shove in a massive nerf, yet 1-1-1 and all the other shit terran can pull are just "part of the game". Oh well just 2 more years to having a complete protoss race, let's hope people still play toss then or at all.
On May 20 2012 01:10 Scootaloo wrote: Squirtle better player, MVP better race, let's hope Blizzard actually nerfs terran now, +5 sec racks building time, lol. Funny how to make people stop whining about 4gate they shove in a massive nerf, yet 1-1-1 and all the other shit terran can pull are just "part of the game". Oh well just 2 more years to having a complete protoss race, let's hope people still play toss then or at all.
On May 20 2012 01:10 Scootaloo wrote: Squirtle better player, MVP better race, let's hope Blizzard actually nerfs terran now, +5 sec racks building time, lol. Funny how to make people stop whining about 4gate they shove in a massive nerf, yet 1-1-1 and all the other shit terran can pull are just "part of the game". Oh well just 2 more years to having a complete protoss race, let's hope people still play toss then or at all.
Are you fucking kidding me.
Over a year since a toss gsl win and even what is supposed to be a strong point for them is just negated by broken terran cheese and mules. And ofcourse I'm talking about the highest levels, you being a bad diamond level terran says nothing.
On May 20 2012 01:10 Scootaloo wrote: Squirtle better player, MVP better race, let's hope Blizzard actually nerfs terran now, +5 sec racks building time, lol. Funny how to make people stop whining about 4gate they shove in a massive nerf, yet 1-1-1 and all the other shit terran can pull are just "part of the game". Oh well just 2 more years to having a complete protoss race, let's hope people still play toss then or at all.
Are you fucking kidding me.
Over a year since a toss gsl win and even what is supposed to be a strong point for them is just negated by broken terran cheese and mules. And ofcourse I'm talking about the highest levels, you being a bad diamond level terran says nothing.
You want them to nerf terran because literally 1 terran can beat toss? Like seriously you say at the highest levels but he's the only one, not even marineking can beat parting or squirtle. So by your logic, as soon as MVP loses, we have to nerf whoever beat him b/c "at the highest levels" terran can't beat x. I think 6 tosses in round of 8 should tell you enough about the balance at the highest levels. Bllizzard's job isn't to make each race win some championships, it's to make a game where the best player, regardless of race can win championships.
I don't see a problem with the cheese play at the end... protoss is really hard to stop at late game.. I also look at it as squirtle loosing it rather than MVP winning it... He managed to stop the first push... and he have a worker advantage by then. He over-extended and his army was split causing some of the stalkers to just die
On May 20 2012 01:10 Scootaloo wrote: Squirtle better player, MVP better race, let's hope Blizzard actually nerfs terran now, +5 sec racks building time, lol. Funny how to make people stop whining about 4gate they shove in a massive nerf, yet 1-1-1 and all the other shit terran can pull are just "part of the game". Oh well just 2 more years to having a complete protoss race, let's hope people still play toss then or at all.
Are you fucking kidding me.
Over a year since a toss gsl win and even what is supposed to be a strong point for them is just negated by broken terran cheese and mules. And ofcourse I'm talking about the highest levels, you being a bad diamond level terran says nothing.
and you know more right? mvp made 1 less mistake than squirtle in that final game, so he lost. that isnt anything balance related
I hate myself for saying this, but fuck MVP for cheesing that last game!
It was good game. And why not? Mvp didn't do anything wrong. if someone did something wrong it was Squirtle, he knew it is proxy 2 rax and still he did stupid mistakes for example he ran to kill the 2 rax when there was like 95% chance mvp was still there with huge marine ball.
that all in would have been easily killed by squirtle but he made critical mistakes. You can't say terran is op if Squirtle was the one making mistakes.
I could say that protoss is imba when Squirtle used archon toilet. Nerf protoss make 80 sec build time to units. But it was Mvp making mistakes and Squirtle using them against him.
Overall series were really good. Sad that Squirtle lost after his amazing run in GSL beating players like oz,taeja and hero but he will be back. Mvp played very good he has shown that he is still one of the best terrans in the world and no one can deny that.
On May 20 2012 01:10 Scootaloo wrote: Squirtle better player, MVP better race, let's hope Blizzard actually nerfs terran now, +5 sec racks building time, lol. Funny how to make people stop whining about 4gate they shove in a massive nerf, yet 1-1-1 and all the other shit terran can pull are just "part of the game". Oh well just 2 more years to having a complete protoss race, let's hope people still play toss then or at all.
Are you fucking kidding me.
Over a year since a toss gsl win and even what is supposed to be a strong point for them is just negated by broken terran cheese and mules. And ofcourse I'm talking about the highest levels, you being a bad diamond level terran says nothing.
and you know more right? mvp made 1 less mistake than squirtle in that final game, so he lost. that isnt anything balance related
Mvp played very well in the 7th game. He microed like a boss, and not everybody could have manage this like him. And he had really big balls to do that kind of strategy on a last game of a BO7 serie... All of the protoss players QQ more please, because Mvp really deserves that win!
On May 20 2012 01:10 Scootaloo wrote: Squirtle better player, MVP better race, let's hope Blizzard actually nerfs terran now, +5 sec racks building time, lol. Funny how to make people stop whining about 4gate they shove in a massive nerf, yet 1-1-1 and all the other shit terran can pull are just "part of the game". Oh well just 2 more years to having a complete protoss race, let's hope people still play toss then or at all.
shameful, you bronze noob. even more shameful bcos toss has been dominating for 2 months now. want me to remind yu of the players in both last GSLs' semis? i don't think so.
MvP is really the last hope for terrans. It's so hard to beat Protoss lategame and they're incredibly difficult to break early game… Without MvP this GSL would have been under total Protoss domination with four P finalists…
I also found Squirtle typical of how boring Protoss is gameplay-wise : Just sit down 20 minutes, do nothing but macro & defend, build a deathball… I mean, if this bo7 final was absolutely awesome, it's because of the entertaining & miraculous play of MvP. Squirtle didn't make any impressive move in this series, apart from a cool blink stalker micro. I mean, if you look at game 5 with BCs, he lost half of this army with his stupid recall on the island, and still manages to win thanks to the imba archon toilet, even after the nerf… I mean, when you let your opponent build 20 Battlecruisers 3/3 with 10 ghosts support, you should lose, plain & simply… Just as if you let a Protoss get 20 upgraded carriers. I'm glad MvP did an incredibly well micro'ed 2 rax on the last game.
So many Squirtle/Toss fans butt hurt over the last game, Mvp proved he can win macro games with Squirtle already. In that last game, after Mvp "failed" the 4 scv cheese, everyone called gg and thought he would've lost which he should have if Squirtle reacted correctly afterwards. Mvp just made better decisions and had better micro that game. It was an amazing last match, you know your hearts were beating crazy as well, don't lie to yourself just because Squirtle lost.
Just wanted to add, game 5 was only hyped so much because of the BCs and Archon toilet. I'm 100% sure if Mvp went bio and won, the game would've been a 1 star.
Good gods I caused a lot of terran butthurt, obviously the point you're all missing, which terrans never consider due to the dangers of bursting bubbles is the vast array builds terran can do, which, with their supreme ability to deny scouting this means a toss needs to prepare for several different ones, combine that with needing perfect micro to hold and very little such stress on the terran and you got a broken matchup.
Combine that with with mules that allow you to macro when pulling ALL your freaking SCV's, who needs zealots right?
Also consider, what kind of player decides the last game based on a coinflip build? He simply must've realized Squirtle was the superior player and took a page from the big book of terran cheese.
Not to mention that MVP has carpal tunnel syndrome and his APM is lacking, kinda funny how much APM you need to play/cheese as high level terran to beat a far quicker toss.
Edit: almost forgot, nerfing history, when toss get's nerfed, a upgrade get's completely removed or delayed with 30 sec or so, completely killing a strategy, apart from early game PvZ do you ever see void ray harass anymore? (NOT a vray allin) Or the removal of Kaydarin, only now do we see templar focussed play again, and only for the people confident enougj to take on the micro, as their stupidly slow speed and nonexistant HP without a cheap cloak or burrow makes them sitting ducks. Most of the terran nerfs have been slight tweakings of build times or stats, hellions are still excessively powerful against workers, while the voidray will most likely remain exclusive to zerg earlygame and the occasional all in.
I was gonna argue with scoot but I think its pointless. Great games, this was one of the best finals ever. I'm a little sad for squirtle but this is his first run at code S so as long as he doesnt get too discouraged by the loss he will go far. Game 5 was epic, I'm still not sure if the BC's were the right choice but hey it made for an awesome entertaining game, the final game was so good even tho it was short I was on the edge of my seat and it really could have gone either way. For those who think 2xproxy was a bad way to end it, think about it this way we got to see 6 great standard games before that with half being long macro games. Grats to Mvp, considering the way the finals went he may not be undisputed goat but still 4 championships is nothin to scoff at. Better luck next time Squirtle. P.S. So glad Mvp didnt win game 4.
On May 20 2012 03:31 Scootaloo wrote: Good gods I caused a lot of terran butthurt, obviously the point you're all missing, which terrans never consider due to the dangers of bursting bubbles is the vast array builds terran can do, which, with their supreme ability to deny scouting this means a toss needs to prepare for several different ones, combine that with needing perfect micro to hold and very little such stress on the terran and you got a broken matchup.
Combine that with with mules that allow you to macro when pulling ALL your freaking SCV's, who needs zealots right?
Also consider, what kind of player decides the last game based on a coinflip build? He simply must've realized Squirtle was the superior player and took a page from the big book of terran cheese.
Not to mention that MVP has carpal tunnel syndrome and his APM is lacking, kinda funny how much APM you need to play/cheese as high level terran to beat a far quicker toss.
No, you obviously missed the point they were all making.
You don't have a very good understanding of the game. The better player doesn't always win, there's a reason it was 3-3, and not 4-0. If squirtle played the last game properly, he would have won. Nestea is relatively slow, and is more successful than most people. Decision making is vastly more important than speed.
Now, I'm a toss and zerg player, so I'm not a butthurt terran defending Mvp, you're just not a very good analyst.
On May 20 2012 03:31 Scootaloo wrote: Good gods I caused a lot of terran butthurt, obviously the point you're all missing, which terrans never consider due to the dangers of bursting bubbles is the vast array builds terran can do, which, with their supreme ability to deny scouting this means a toss needs to prepare for several different ones, combine that with needing perfect micro to hold and very little such stress on the terran and you got a broken matchup.
Combine that with with mules that allow you to macro when pulling ALL your freaking SCV's, who needs zealots right?
Also consider, what kind of player decides the last game based on a coinflip build? He simply must've realized Squirtle was the superior player and took a page from the big book of terran cheese.
Not to mention that MVP has carpal tunnel syndrome and his APM is lacking, kinda funny how much APM you need to play/cheese as high level terran to beat a far quicker toss.
No, you obviously missed the point they were all making.
You don't have a very good understanding of the game. The better player doesn't always win, there's a reason it was 3-3, and not 4-0. If squirtle played the last game properly, he would have won. Nestea is relatively slow, and is more successful than most people. Decision making is vastly more important than speed.
Now, I'm a toss and zerg player, so I'm not a butthurt terran defending Mvp, you're just not a very good analyst.
Clearly you miss the point I'm making, you don't have a good understanding of the game, you're not a very good analyst, and as someone who plays random I am unbiased.
Squirtle would have won if he knew exactly what MVP was doing, which due to the sheer amount of things terran can do is far more difficult to determine then with a zerg or toss. You will always see the 6 pool, and at least the gates become useless after the proxy failed.
On May 20 2012 03:31 Scootaloo wrote: Good gods I caused a lot of terran butthurt, obviously the point you're all missing, which terrans never consider due to the dangers of bursting bubbles is the vast array builds terran can do, which, with their supreme ability to deny scouting this means a toss needs to prepare for several different ones, combine that with needing perfect micro to hold and very little such stress on the terran and you got a broken matchup.
Combine that with with mules that allow you to macro when pulling ALL your freaking SCV's, who needs zealots right?
Also consider, what kind of player decides the last game based on a coinflip build? He simply must've realized Squirtle was the superior player and took a page from the big book of terran cheese.
Not to mention that MVP has carpal tunnel syndrome and his APM is lacking, kinda funny how much APM you need to play/cheese as high level terran to beat a far quicker toss.
Edit: almost forgot, nerfing history, when toss get's nerfed, a upgrade get's completely removed or delayed with 30 sec or so, completely killing a strategy, apart from early game PvZ do you ever see void ray harass anymore? (NOT a vray allin) Or the removal of Kaydarin, only now do we see templar focussed play again, and only for the people confident enougj to take on the micro, as their stupidly slow speed and nonexistant HP without a cheap cloak or burrow makes them sitting ducks. Most of the terran nerfs have been slight tweakings of build times or stats, hellions are still excessively powerful against workers, while the voidray will most likely remain exclusive to zerg earlygame and the occasional all in.
'needing perfect micro' lol, you sir have never played Terran.
'how much APM' lol#2, not like it's plain notorious that T players have the highest average APM.
'removal of Kaydarin' LOL O L O L are you SERIOUSLY discussing that very nerf?
fucking amazing. MVP outplayed three StarTale tosses in a row during an all-out toss-favored season, it makes him an ASTONISHING born-winner, and the best sc2 player to date. stop discussing it by bitching about his genius cheese (cause yes, that was a genius cheese), it's disrespectful and stupid.
On May 20 2012 03:04 aznball123 wrote: Just wanted to add, game 5 was only hyped so much because of the BCs and Archon toilet. I'm 100% sure if Mvp went bio and won, the game would've been a 1 star.
First of all, that whole game was pretty great. Secondly, no shit if the game had been different we would've reacted differently. That's like saying, hey that guy won the race. I'm 100% sure if he had crossed the finish line second he wouldn't have won.
On May 20 2012 03:31 Scootaloo wrote: Good gods I caused a lot of terran butthurt, obviously the point you're all missing, which terrans never consider due to the dangers of bursting bubbles is the vast array builds terran can do, which, with their supreme ability to deny scouting this means a toss needs to prepare for several different ones, combine that with needing perfect micro to hold and very little such stress on the terran and you got a broken matchup.
Combine that with with mules that allow you to macro when pulling ALL your freaking SCV's, who needs zealots right?
Also consider, what kind of player decides the last game based on a coinflip build? He simply must've realized Squirtle was the superior player and took a page from the big book of terran cheese.
Not to mention that MVP has carpal tunnel syndrome and his APM is lacking, kinda funny how much APM you need to play/cheese as high level terran to beat a far quicker toss.
Edit: almost forgot, nerfing history, when toss get's nerfed, a upgrade get's completely removed or delayed with 30 sec or so, completely killing a strategy, apart from early game PvZ do you ever see void ray harass anymore? (NOT a vray allin) Or the removal of Kaydarin, only now do we see templar focussed play again, and only for the people confident enougj to take on the micro, as their stupidly slow speed and nonexistant HP without a cheap cloak or burrow makes them sitting ducks. Most of the terran nerfs have been slight tweakings of build times or stats, hellions are still excessively powerful against workers, while the voidray will most likely remain exclusive to zerg earlygame and the occasional all in.
'needing perfect micro' lol, you sir have never played Terran.
'how much APM' lol#2, not like it's plain notorious that T players have the highest average APM.
'removal of Kaydarin' LOL O L O L are you SERIOUSLY discussing that very nerf?
fucking amazing. MVP outplayed three StarTale tosses in a row during an all-out toss-favored season, it makes him an ASTONISHING born-winner, and the best sc2 player to date. stop discussing it by bitching about his genius cheese (cause yes, that was a genius cheese), it's disrespectful and stupid.
P.S: and LOWL please, you're not playing random.
Silly me, I thought literally copying your baseless insults would make you realize their stupidity, hah. Then again that might be a bit too much to ask from a guy who feels a compulsive need to type "OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL".
I do play terran, that's how random works kid, from your micro comment I can however discern you don't play toss, or at least not at any level I would take seriously, let me reiterate, your wood leaguea experience means nothing.
And usually terran has a higher APM, most because micro makes their units far more effective then for most toss or zerg units, MVP however has CTS, meaning his APM isn't high right now. Unlike that of Squirtle.
Outplayed 3 tosses? More like cheesed 3 tosses, as toss is by far the most vulnerable race to cheese and he kept hitting toss it's more like when Inca got to the finals purely on PvP, able to do 1 thing really good but mediocre at the rest, Cheesing is MVPs PvP.
On May 20 2012 03:04 aznball123 wrote: Just wanted to add, game 5 was only hyped so much because of the BCs and Archon toilet. I'm 100% sure if Mvp went bio and won, the game would've been a 1 star.
First of all, that whole game was pretty great. Secondly, no shit if the game had been different we would've reacted differently. That's like saying, hey that guy won the race. I'm 100% sure if he had crossed the finish line second he wouldn't have won.
Whole game? LOL they sat at their bases for 30 minutes and had only 2 battles. Even if Mvp went bio and lost to Squirtle's death ball, it would've been 1 star too. Fail analogy is fail.
Edit: Basically, it was only good because it had BCs/Toilet.
On May 20 2012 03:31 Scootaloo wrote: Good gods I caused a lot of terran butthurt, obviously the point you're all missing, which terrans never consider due to the dangers of bursting bubbles is the vast array builds terran can do, which, with their supreme ability to deny scouting this means a toss needs to prepare for several different ones, combine that with needing perfect micro to hold and very little such stress on the terran and you got a broken matchup.
Combine that with with mules that allow you to macro when pulling ALL your freaking SCV's, who needs zealots right?
Also consider, what kind of player decides the last game based on a coinflip build? He simply must've realized Squirtle was the superior player and took a page from the big book of terran cheese.
Not to mention that MVP has carpal tunnel syndrome and his APM is lacking, kinda funny how much APM you need to play/cheese as high level terran to beat a far quicker toss.
Edit: almost forgot, nerfing history, when toss get's nerfed, a upgrade get's completely removed or delayed with 30 sec or so, completely killing a strategy, apart from early game PvZ do you ever see void ray harass anymore? (NOT a vray allin) Or the removal of Kaydarin, only now do we see templar focussed play again, and only for the people confident enougj to take on the micro, as their stupidly slow speed and nonexistant HP without a cheap cloak or burrow makes them sitting ducks. Most of the terran nerfs have been slight tweakings of build times or stats, hellions are still excessively powerful against workers, while the voidray will most likely remain exclusive to zerg earlygame and the occasional all in.
'needing perfect micro' lol, you sir have never played Terran.
'how much APM' lol#2, not like it's plain notorious that T players have the highest average APM.
'removal of Kaydarin' LOL O L O L are you SERIOUSLY discussing that very nerf?
fucking amazing. MVP outplayed three StarTale tosses in a row during an all-out toss-favored season, it makes him an ASTONISHING born-winner, and the best sc2 player to date. stop discussing it by bitching about his genius cheese (cause yes, that was a genius cheese), it's disrespectful and stupid.
P.S: and LOWL please, you're not playing random.
Silly me, I thought literally copying your baseless insults would make you realize their stupidity, hah. Then again that might be a bit too much to ask from a guy who feels a compulsive need to type "OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL".
I do play terran, that's how random works kid, from your micro comment I can however discern you don't play toss, or at least not at any level I would take seriously, let me reiterate, your wood leaguea experience means nothing.
And usually terran has a higher APM, most because micro makes their units far more effective then for most toss or zerg units, MVP however has CTS, meaning his APM isn't high right now. Unlike that of Squirtle.
Outplayed 3 tosses? More like cheesed 3 tosses, as toss is by far the most vulnerable race to cheese and he kept hitting toss it's more like when Inca got to the finals purely on PvP, able to do 1 thing really good but mediocre at the rest, Cheesing is MVPs PvP.
troll some where else u bronze noob u think terran micro is easy? APM=/=better player(typical bronze noob thought) did u see mvp decision making in that game like i said CHAMPION going be a champion while bronze like u who complain imbalance stay bronze forever
On May 19 2012 20:41 Random_Guy09 wrote: Yep remove that mule and Squirtle wins. Sad how the series went out.. Who really cares if you know the map is bad for the match up, suck it up and play out the game and make it a good final and show your better by forgetting about the little map advantages. Prove that those factors dont matter and that your the better player that doesnt need those kind of excuses.
The only game out of this year in any tournament that I'd rewatch that had something like that happen was HuK vs Naniwa at MLG. Because that game actually showed talent from both players. This 7th game on the other hand seems to make it look like MVP was scared to face Squirtle in a straight up macro game again "because the map is better for protoss". If thats the excuse to cheese then its a tainted win and you just look bad for it.
Naniwa cheeses in a meaningless game. MVP goes on and cheeses cause of some disadvantage to his race on a certain map and there will be no reprocussions for it. Could have been an all round good series for a Final but it had to end like this.
did you actually just compare MVP's brilliant game 7 to Naniwa's incredibly disrespectful probe rush? What the hell?
Just ignore this guy. He is a troll and clearly hates starcraft. Game 7 was absolutely brilliant. No one can cheese like MVP, I can't honestly remember a game where he has done something like this and failed. His micro is just the best in the world. Except for maybe MKP, no one even comes close.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/gsl/gsl_season22012_grandfinals.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Fionn/spewhx.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/fishuu/gslSeason2Finals.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg60duODgu1qcbii4.gif)
, thanks a lot :p
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Squirtle wins 
