There have been many intriguing stories in this season of Code S, from the death of Zerg, the fall of champions, Liquid's Korean duo, and of course, the one foreign hope. But even amidst these sparkling narratives about a new generation of Code S players, there's one very old school story that's been impossible to miss. And how could you, when Mvp's bloody footsteps can be traced all the way back to last season's Code A?
If the newcomers' tales are about finding new life, then Mvp's has been about fighting off death. His struggles with his real life wrist injury are mirrored in his games. Every round has been a struggle, and every round he has been made to look weak. Sniper defeated him once in Code A, Ryung embarrassed him in the RO32, HerO was simply better in the RO16, and Leenock almost became his executioner. Yet, each reminder of his mortality allowed Mvp to find his spark, some inner strength that has yet to be lost to injury and time. Two weeks ago, it culminated in a majestic, two-game, blast-to-the-past TvZ showing against Leenock that allowed him to live yet another day.
It's hard to say there is “more on the line” for one player than another, but you could make that argument for Mvp. NaNiwa has earned a Code S seed for the next season, shut up countless doubters, and proved that he was more than deserving of GomTV's forgiveness and faith. NaNiwa could fall here in the Ro8, and he would probably still be a bigger winner than the eventual runner-up. Meanwhile, Mvp cursed himself long ago by winning three GSL championships, so that every single tournament is a test, so that the only way for him to win is in the most literal sense, by being the final and sole winner of a tournament.
Overall outlook and prediction:
For fans of NaNiwa and foreigners, it's tough to know what to make of this match-up. The young Swede put up some of his best results against Koreans in PvZ, while actually professing to be more comfortable in PvT. Although NaNiwa looked strong as he defeated Terran players Ryung and Virus in this GSL run, it was wins over the likes of Nestea, Leenock, and DongRaeGu that catapulted him to front of the foreigner class. Obviously, it's not NaNiwa's fault, but the simple fact is we haven't seen much of his Korean level PvT. Regarding that match-up, we just might have to take his word for it. Alright, NaNi. You say it's your best, and we've seen you be good – let's see if you can be great.
As chance would have it, Mvp is another player who cannot be judged by just facts, with faith playing a significant role. First, you have to decide if you believe he can pull through his injury and play to the best of his abilities. Against Leenock, he reached deep inside himself and pulled out an overpowering TvZ performance against one of the best ZvT players in the world, showing a quality of play some thought he was no longer capable of. If the 'old Mvp' truly lurks within, then NaNiwa may face the toughest challenge of his career.
May face. The other matter of faith is if you believe that Mvp TvP's was ever on the level of his almost invincible TvT and TvZ. Similar to NaNiwa, it's not Mvp's fault that the Protoss race conspired to collective failure during his period of dominance, leaving him almost completely untested in TvP in important situations. But it makes one wonder if his solid, but ultimately inadequate level of play against HerO will be the best he can bring against NaNiwa, and if there are no hidden depths to reach for as in his match against Leenock. In that case, we may see more upsets yet.
Mvp 3 – 2 NaNiwa
What's that line about never doubting the heart of a champion?
Strictly speaking, there's always been a 'best Protoss player in the world.' Even if everyone is terrible, someone is bound to be the least terrible, and thus by definition, 'the best.' That's not to say Protoss players have all been terrible for the last year. MC has been a very capable stand-in for most of that period, winning his fair share of foreign tournaments, but he can't help but look a bit weaker than his Terran and Zerg counter-parts. Luckily for Protoss fans, there happen to be five Protoss players left in this GSL, and with all of them having a good shot at winning the GSL championship, we may very well see a Protoss player who we can all stand behind when we say he's the best in the world. Two of them go head to head tonight.
MC was the Denethor of Protoss for the last eight months or so, the steward ruling in place while everyone awaited the return of the true King. However, he lit himself on fire (lost to Virus), and then ran off a cliff after he picked a fight with a hobbit (Maru) and a wizard (Oz).
PartinG might actually have been the lack-of-a-better-choice best Protoss for the last few weeks, just because of MC's fairly average performances. His PvT is the best in the world, he looks a little bit better each and every time we see him, and no one doubts that he deserves to be in the round of eight – but he hasn't shown us an inch more than that. He definitely gets a big boost in perceived skill because he ends up drawing PvT all the damn time, because people stopped taking PvP into account as a match-up (unless they want to bash HuK or NaNiwa), and because Zerg players are busy staving off extinction. The point is, we can't be all optimistic about him turning into a championship caliber player, when the less glorious alternative is right in front of us.
If things don't go well for PartinG, then he might start looking remarkably like Oz. Not that being like Oz is a bad thing at all – Oz is a threat to make the top four in any tournament, and can hang with anyone in the world. However, there's a looming feeling that he's plateaued somehow at that weird tier where players like sC, Losira, and Genius once resided, the one just short of a championship.
It's time for both players to try and make the next big leap. It's not just this match, or the semi-final match they should be looking forward to. Everyone already knows they can play that level. A championship should be their true goal.
Overall outlook and prediction:
Ah, PvP. As with most other Protoss mirror duels in this GSL, it's hard to say either player has an advantage. Both PartinG and Oz have fantastic small army micro, both are great at putting together late game compositions, and both have a good sense of positioning when it comes down to game deciding battles. If everything plays out standard, and both players decide to go for orthodox PvP, if will probably end up being a very even, let's-just-coinflip PvP duel.
The difference might be Oz's willingness to go for more drastic measures from time to time, such as his double gas rush against Squirtle last week. So far, PartinG has had a tendency to play it relatively safe in his GSL PvP games, and that might not be the best approach against a more desperate opponent.
Oz 3 – 1 PartinG
2012 Protoss Elections
Vote NaNiwa! by shiroiusagi.
Writers: Waxangel. Graphics and Art: Meko. Editor: Waxangel.
Gonna be a tough one for naniwa... I want a foreigner to win, but I don't really want it to be naniwa for some reason lol, so I'm gonna have to cheer for mvp =p GOGO MVP!
Quite honestly I want to see both Naniwa and MVP advance, though it be impossible, the former to show that non-Koreans can compete at the highest levels and to help bring closure to a great story of redemption, and the latter to show that human will can overcome adversity and champions can never be held back.
i dont know if theres a good reason or if anyone else has mentioned this on another thread but...why hasnt group d been reviewed yet? id like to hear what tl thinks about squirtle 4-0'ing his group and mc's uninspiring play..
I also think NaNiwa's PvT is good enough to beat Mvp's worst match up. He's beaten him before at the MLG global invitational. Also the maps are pretty good for NaNiwa.
That analogy...... Too damn perfect. But I'm going with Nani or Parting to win this whole thing, so Nope MVP is NOT winning. We know he can be beaten, by NaNi and by other protoss. And to back it up, Parting is by far the most dominant protoss in the world right now. No contest.
Heh. Could tell who was writing this time by the Toss bashing and balance forgiveness. Still I always enjoy reading these write ups even if I think they're a bit off base.
I think the maps needed to be discussed. Only Antiga is really a dangerous map for Nani. Metro close air could be 1-1-1 time but if Nani doesn't wrap up the series 3-1 on daybreak then he deserves to lose.
Also hoping PartinG makes it through. Oz has been overhyped for a good while. He's not a mediocre toss in the sense of aLive as a terran but more... eh Oz is a player like Movie.
I liquibet NaNiwa and Parting, and I stand by it. Nani is still underrated even though he's on a tear, and I think he just outplays MVP. As for Oz vs Parting, I know Oz is supposed to be the better PvPer, but I strongly believe tgat Parting is the better PLAYER, and with adequate practice to whip his PvP into top shape, I think he can take Oz down. Oz could coinflip Parting out, but I don't see Parting winning any coinflips; I see him winning through sheer superior decision making. I see the GSL champion coming out of one of these two matches, I'm just not entirely sure who. We're long overdue for a Protoss to take it, though!
the KING IN THE NORTH will not fall before the heart of a champion. I believe his intense training recently will do him well. NaNi 3-2 MVP Parting 3-1 Oz
god i hpe fionn picked mvp, that way nani gets a sure win. i wonder why there is no mention of how wierd oz's builds were last week. i never have had much faith in oz. parting has this i think.
I'm pretty sure Naniwa will win. He's practiced a lot for this and MVP mentioned he is starting rehab and content with just reaching the Ro8 to secure a spot for next season. I doubt MVP has practiced much and is prioritizing recovery over results at this point in his career.
MC was the Denethor of Protoss for the last eight months or so, the steward ruling in place while everyone awaited the return of the true King. However, he lit himself on fire (lost to Virus), and then ran off a cliff after he picked a fight with a hobbit (Maru) and a wizard (Oz).
Haha! Brilliant!
Anyways, I concur that Mvp must win. At least then the unnatural foreigner fanboyism will end.
I really don't think MVP is in a position to give this series his all. Skill differentials are just so small at this point that not giving his all isn't going to cut it.
Mvp might be the worst condition as of yet, he shouldn't have gone to China for that tournament where he lost to Moon. Your statement about how Mvp stand to lose more than Naniwa is false. Sure, foreigners will be thrilled with his placement in the Ro8 but to Koreans, he'll still be among the foreigner like Idra and Huk who just had a lucky run to the quarterfinal, beating mediocre terrans and riding on the PvP matchup. I see a fire in the eyes of the Swedish Protoss while the Korean Terran looks like a dying king reminiscent of his reign and taking his last breath.
Oz has been awful at PvP as of late, losing to other protoss that he simply shouldn't. Surprisingly his PvT is what got him this far in the tournament. Parting is overall more rounded in all match up and I think he's decision making PvT can carry over in his other match ups.
Anytime there's a protoss you need more analogy about them being president or dethroning MC for the best protoss title. Also, Have fun in Korea!
PartinG makes me enjoy watching Protoss (probably because he plays it like it's Zerg!); that alone makes him the best Protoss in my books. I really hope he can beat Oz.
I've been liqui-betting against Nani the whole of this season and he keeps winning, so I'll continue the trend in the hope he continues winning! Silly and superstitious, oh yeah!
But i think if MvP and Parting go through, Parting will almost certainly be in the finals. His PvT ist just so awesome and I don't see MvP beating him with his injury.
As a Protoss player myself MVP's domination coincided with the near-extinction event of Protoss in the GSL so I have a deep, deep fear of him but even I don't think he stands a chance against Naniwa.
Also I saw games on Parting's PvT and like most people it blew me away, but can someone who follow his games more closely tell me how good is his PvP?
even though i believe MVP has the heart of a champion i don't see him coming on top with his injuries to his wrists. so even though hes great still i believe naniwa has what it takes to stick it to MVP this time around (watch khaldor's video about nani / ST)
The hating on MC and toss in general was very much uncalled for. It is rare that I am upset after reading an article on TL but the penmanship was just not up to scratch on this occasion, the biases really did show through to spoil something I honestly was looking forward to reading.
I believe MC has proven himself enough times to be treated with some respect. He is the only person to ever win a GSL (code S) with Protoss, not only that but he did it twice. He has also won more prize money in SC2 then anyone else so I would say he has every right to call himself the overall best SC2 player in the world. He has beaten most if not all of his terran and zerg counterparts that you say he looks weaker then. He is one of the only players to consistently win/do well in tournaments both when his race is doing badly and well.
How can you say something like "it's not Mvp's fault that the Protoss race conspired to collective failure during his period of dominance". Part of the reason why MVP (worst match up TvP) dominated was because Protoss were underpowered (Not whine, going by the stats from the winrate graphs) for so long.
Protoss is and has been the most played race for a long time, you really think over 1/3 of the SC2 population would conspire to collectively fail...even less likely since they all play the race that has won the least GSL titles and want to shut up biased critics who start convincing themselves that the 1/3 of people who chose to play protoss just happened to be less talented then the 2/3 that didn't.
As for PvP coinflip: "PvP is pure skill. Pure micro. If anyone thinks they can win using luck, I will play you and I will beat you." - FXOz...Go play Oz, thx fionn for bringing that quote to light :D
Mabye I am interpreting this all wrong due to my complete lack of sleep in which case expect an edited reply whenever I wake up next. If not, please less of the race bias, it takes away from the preview.
GSL needs a protoss champion but I'm rooting for MVP today. As a player and person, he's always convinced me. Other than that, I love both Parting and Oz so may the best coinflipper win!
On May 02 2012 14:50 belija wrote: Heart: Nani>MvP Parting>Oz
Head MvP>Nani Parting>Oz
But i think if MvP and Parting go through, Parting will almost certainly be in the finals. His PvT ist just so awesome and I don't see MvP beating him with his injury.
lol this is 100% exactly what I was thinking. I really hope naniwa makes it through though
No but seriously Naniwa has trained like never before against the ST terrans and he is possibly in his best form ever. Also he said that he finally have come over his nerve issues in the GSL studio which he thought hold him back before.
I think MVP has to bring his A-game if he wanne go through to the next round, and we have not seen that performance from MVP for ~6 months so..
I'll root for Naniwa because I like him, but secretly, I'll be holding out for a non PvP finals and there's only a couple guys left that can make that happen.
will be rooting for fellow terran mvp, but probably naniwa will take it, havent seen many terrans today beat tosses that play just simply solid/safe/long/macro
Strictly speaking, there's always been a 'best Protoss player in the world.' Even if everyone is terrible, someone is bound to be the least terrible, and thus by definition, 'the best.' That's not to say Protoss players have all been terrible for the last year. MC has been a very capable stand-in for most of that period, winning his fair share of foreign tournaments, but he can't help but look a bit weaker than his Terran and Zerg counter-parts. Luckily for Protoss fans, there happen to be five Protoss players left in this GSL, and with all of them having a good shot at winning the GSL championship, we may very well see a Protoss player who we can all stand behind when we say he's the best in the world. Two of them go head to head tonight
What did I just read? Like, is it a free race bashing session covered by some match previews? At least we should have someone less terrible to make those articles.
On May 02 2012 17:30 RaiKageRyu wrote: Naniwa may never ever get a better shot a GSL title than this season. The road has almost been paved for him already.
No zergs left. MVP in a handicapped state. Lots of Protoss left.
This is Naniwa's GSL to lose.
Wut?
And this "Naniwa has terrible pvz" should end. If he practices he can beat any zerg. Not playing vs zerg for a month is like having a handicap in the game.
Strictly speaking, there's always been a 'best Protoss player in the world.' Even if everyone is terrible, someone is bound to be the least terrible, and thus by definition, 'the best.' That's not to say Protoss players have all been terrible for the last year. MC has been a very capable stand-in for most of that period, winning his fair share of foreign tournaments, but he can't help but look a bit weaker than his Terran and Zerg counter-parts. Luckily for Protoss fans, there happen to be five Protoss players left in this GSL, and with all of them having a good shot at winning the GSL championship, we may very well see a Protoss player who we can all stand behind when we say he's the best in the world. Two of them go head to head tonight
What did I just read? Like, is it a free race bashing session covered by some match previews? At least we should have someone less terrible to make those articles.
Would be great to see naniwa lose because he's such a spaz, but MVP is basically disabled...and a Bo5 is going to murder his wrists. His best chance will be to go for quick and decisive wins instead of long macro games.
To be honest if NaniWa should ever win vs MVP now would be the time, he has atleast spent 3 days on flying to China and playing the Nvidia lan and going back again, this paired with his wrist condition gives the otherwise unfavorable NaniWa a good chance.
And before you call me out on "unfavorable"; Naniwa has won vs 2 T's, one of them is one of the worst TvP'ers in Code S, and the other is known to be the weakest Code S player, I am referring to Ryung and Virus.
On May 02 2012 18:07 TheBamf wrote: To be honest if NaniWa should ever win vs MVP now would be the time, he has atleast spent 3 days on flying to China and playing the Nvidia lan and going back again, this paired with his wrist condition gives the otherwise unfavorable NaniWa a good chance.
And before you call me out on "unfavorable"; Naniwa has won vs 2 T's, one of them is one of the worst TvP'ers in Code S, and the other is known to be the weakest Code S player, I am referring to Ryung and Virus.
It should be noted that NaniWa crushed both Virus & Ryung though.
On May 02 2012 18:07 TheBamf wrote: To be honest if NaniWa should ever win vs MVP now would be the time, he has atleast spent 3 days on flying to China and playing the Nvidia lan and going back again, this paired with his wrist condition gives the otherwise unfavorable NaniWa a good chance.
And before you call me out on "unfavorable"; Naniwa has won vs 2 T's, one of them is one of the worst TvP'ers in Code S, and the other is known to be the weakest Code S player, I am referring to Ryung and Virus.
He did already beat MvP before, wouldn't be nothing new. I'm really excited but I also would like to watch more of Parting's PvT, its just too entertaining.
Ugly match is ugly....even if it's considered a valid win. I fail to see the Good Game so i can't say it was. Only way to advance in GSL i guess. Would never be proud to be in RO8 of the most competitive event related to SC2, where everyone tries to show off his true skill in this game and why they got there in the first place...............................and then just cheese like that and even have a smile on your face.
Proved nothing....quite the contrary. If that's how pro players STILL prove their sportsman skill in the most competitive game on the planet then it's more then sad, may be valid, but the sadest thing possible. Desperation tactics will never be used by skillful players or highly regarded by a community that hungers for actual skill not bronze level tactics backed up by good micro.
I actually believe that this kind of match is alot worse than Nani's probe rush. A terran cheesing twice... lost all my respect for MVP. Come back next season Naniwa and claim that GSL crown!
On May 02 2012 19:26 Substah wrote: I actually believe that this kind of match is alot worse than Nani's probe rush. A terran cheesing twice... lost all my respect for MVP. Come back next season Naniwa and claim that GSL crown!
+1
Couldn't have said it better myself. MVP just lost my respect. He should have faced Naniwa like a man.
On May 02 2012 19:26 Substah wrote: I actually believe that this kind of match is alot worse than Nani's probe rush. A terran cheesing twice... lost all my respect for MVP. Come back next season Naniwa and claim that GSL crown!
+1
Couldn't have said it better myself. MVP just lost my respect. He should have faced Naniwa like a man.
MVP is just a smart guy. He thought he had better chance to advance with cheesy play and he was right. gg to him
On May 02 2012 19:26 Substah wrote: I actually believe that this kind of match is alot worse than Nani's probe rush. A terran cheesing twice... lost all my respect for MVP. Come back next season Naniwa and claim that GSL crown!
+1
Couldn't have said it better myself. MVP just lost my respect. He should have faced Naniwa like a man.
MVP is just a smart guy. He thought he had better chance to advance with cheesy play and he was right. gg to him
Because of that mentality we have such bad games. This is turning out to be anything else but a true e-sport using that mentality.
He has CTS, he's one of the most macro-style players in the game, but if he were to play long macro games there's no way his wrists would survive it. Even after the Ro16 against Leenock he said that his wrists were completely numb after the matches.
Either way, I don't mind, Mvp is my favourite player even when cheesing Bo5s or losing because of wrist pains and low practice time.
Well, MvP played smart and won which is also part of being a "good". But Naniwa could have played better especially in the 4th game. For a series which was so anticipated it was really horrible though.
Lol, you guys blame MVP for cheesing. He played very smart series. You should blame Naniwa's micro or his bad decisions during match. On Entombed Valley he saw all in coming, but didn't manage to defend it properly. On Daybreak Naniwa killed scv, delayed 2nd rax so much, but one more time he lost.
On May 02 2012 19:26 Substah wrote: I actually believe that this kind of match is alot worse than Nani's probe rush. A terran cheesing twice... lost all my respect for MVP. Come back next season Naniwa and claim that GSL crown!
No, it's not. This can be the start of rivalries, like BoxeR vs YellOw, Flash vs Bisu. It makes people more engaged in the game too, people are so upset at the moment after seeing Nani falling so short, but everyone knows that he can overcome, and this makes his resolve stronger and the fans' wishes to see him triumph even greater.
Call it what you want, but this is good for eSports.
Mvp cheesed because of his wrists he didn't want to play a long game it would have been nice to see naniwa advance but it didn't happen. He's gonna get crushed by Parting because he's already 2-0 against Oz.
probe rush has pretty much zero chance of working, while MVP's cheeses win games. When Naniwa scouted the proxy raxes and was still unable to stop them it was a stress test that he failed to pass. I have faith that if Naniwa can replay the game he can most likely stop the proxy raxes.
I lost all respect or interest for MVP, no freaking argument about that being clever or how bad the poor guy is injured and stuff, I simply hate watching those cheesy game, and I feel like MVP just feared naniwa and just proved that he could not take him in a regular game.
Naniwa will get payback next season ... but mvp is no longer someone I respect.
Lol at ppl whining over the fact that mvp does what give him biggest chanses of winning. Mvp is one of the players that use long game macro the most, when he first cheese its for a good reason. Plz remember that gsl is big money. BIG money. U do what u need to win. If cheese is the best way to win against naniwa, u go cheese. If longgame is the best way, u go longgame. They don practice all year around to be perfect gentlemen, they practice to win games!
Now stop whine and admit that mvp played just as he needed to.
Even if MVP didn't have those injuries he has still the right to try to win. There is no need to bash on him for beating a pretty unmannered guy albeit a foreigner.
Lol at ppl whining over the fact that mvp does what give him biggest chanses of winning. Mvp is one of the players that use long game macro the most, when he first cheese its for a good reason. Plz remember that gsl is big money. BIG money. U do what u need to win. If cheese is the best way to win against naniwa, u go cheese. If longgame is the best way, u go longgame. They don practice all year around to be perfect gentlemen, they practice to win games!
Now stop whine and admit that mvp played just as he needed to.
Yeah lot of money, sc2 is becoming like football/soccer then ? Loads of money but shitty games played by greedy players ?
Plus I am not paying a season ticket to see players cheese that much in a bo5, mvp is just disrespectful of his audience and his opponent...
Yeah cheese happens, good work MVP. Saying that you lost all respect for Mvp?I don't think using cheese "proves" he was afraid of a player... Stuff like that has been going on in stracraft1 for years. Deal with it and wish Naniwa luck next season, don't bash Mvp.
On May 02 2012 19:26 Substah wrote: I actually believe that this kind of match is alot worse than Nani's probe rush. A terran cheesing twice... lost all my respect for MVP. Come back next season Naniwa and claim that GSL crown!
+1
Couldn't have said it better myself. MVP just lost my respect. He should have faced Naniwa like a man.
spanjoar - Sweden Substah - Sweden
...
Let me put it this way. If Naniwa was Terran, had bad wrists, couldn't practice much etc. and MVP was Protoss and the games were exactly the same, I guarantee you wouldn't be saying this. You would most likely be praising Naniwa for smart build choices considering the circumstances.
In addition, you're also making it sound like MVP has to prove something to everyone. Guess what: he doesn't. He's a multiple-time GSL champion as well as being the second highest money winner in SC2.
By the way, you're just presenting another opportunity for people to typify Naniwa's fanbase...
Lol at ppl whining over the fact that mvp does what give him biggest chanses of winning. Mvp is one of the players that use long game macro the most, when he first cheese its for a good reason. Plz remember that gsl is big money. BIG money. U do what u need to win. If cheese is the best way to win against naniwa, u go cheese. If longgame is the best way, u go longgame. They don practice all year around to be perfect gentlemen, they practice to win games!
Now stop whine and admit that mvp played just as he needed to.
Yeah lot of money, sc2 is becoming like football/soccer then ? Loads of money but shitty games played by greedy players ?
Plus I am not paying a season ticket to see players cheese that much in a bo5, mvp is just disrespectful of his audience and his opponent...
So.. u dont want players to play for win? Not allowed to attack before the 10 min mark? U really think they practice 7-8 ours pr day but wont adapt to win matches? The mark of a great player is that he manage to adapt to different enemys. MVP is GREAT at longgame, but when Naniwa has won so many games after the 15min mark, there is only common sense to counter it with something else. If u want gentleman, go play some chess, if u want some good competitive e-sport, watch gsl <3
On May 02 2012 19:26 Substah wrote: I actually believe that this kind of match is alot worse than Nani's probe rush. A terran cheesing twice... lost all my respect for MVP. Come back next season Naniwa and claim that GSL crown!
+1
Couldn't have said it better myself. MVP just lost my respect. He should have faced Naniwa like a man.
spanjoar - Sweden Substah - Sweden
...
Let me put it this way. If Naniwa was Terran, had bad wrists, couldn't practice much etc. and MVP was Protoss and the games were exactly the same, I guarantee you wouldn't be saying this. You would most likely be praising Naniwa for smart build choices considering the circumstances.
In addition, you're also making it sound like MVP has to prove something to everyone. Guess what: he doesn't. He's a multiple-time GSL champion as well as being the second highest money winner in SC2.
By the way, you're just presenting another opportunity for people to typify Naniwa's fanbase...
May I say that I strongly disagree with that statement:
I would not be proud if nani won by cheesing 4 times in a row, maybe a little less intoxicated by rage than I am right now, but still I would not respect that win. Cheesing all the games in a Bo5 is just saying : I have no chance against you so i'll just backstab you during your sleep. It wins war but it feels dirty and simply brings dishonor on the victory.
This, once again, is not the starcraft we want to see nor is it the one that I can respect.
And people talking about the money are freaking killing me, don't let the money bring all the things we hate about the other sport industries ...
These cheesy koreans, Mvp was scared of facing nani in straight up game. Had to cheese like every korean does when they feel they're loosing... sigh ;SS
On May 02 2012 19:39 InoyouS2 wrote: Fanboys hating on Mvp because he cheesed.
He has CTS, he's one of the most macro-style players in the game, but if he were to play long macro games there's no way his wrists would survive it. Even after the Ro16 against Leenock he said that his wrists were completely numb after the matches.
Either way, I don't mind, Mvp is my favourite player even when cheesing Bo5s or losing because of wrist pains and low practice time.
GOGO MVP
Personally i don't hate MVP, but games like that are why i don't pay for GSL anymore. If i was naniwa MVP would have worst problems than CTS after i waited for him in the parking lot...lol
He was obviously playing to win, if you knew Naniwa has an advantage after 15 min mark why would you deliberately play a game over that length? Combined with the pain from CTS I think he made a sensible decision. His job isnt to play long macro games for the audiance, its to win tournaments.
i don't understand why you people bash MvP for the things he did.. okay so he cheesed but then again Naniwa cudn't counter any of those? why? once or twice? he knew the rush was coming and still failed to def.... MVP might not have shown a good game but same goes to Naniwa for failing to defend rushes he KNEW were coming it's not a good game from both sides when all things are said and done
On May 02 2012 19:26 Substah wrote: I actually believe that this kind of match is alot worse than Nani's probe rush. A terran cheesing twice... lost all my respect for MVP. Come back next season Naniwa and claim that GSL crown!
+1
Couldn't have said it better myself. MVP just lost my respect. He should have faced Naniwa like a man.
spanjoar - Sweden Substah - Sweden
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Let me put it this way. If Naniwa was Terran, had bad wrists, couldn't practice much etc. and MVP was Protoss and the games were exactly the same, I guarantee you wouldn't be saying this. You would most likely be praising Naniwa for smart build choices considering the circumstances.
In addition, you're also making it sound like MVP has to prove something to everyone. Guess what: he doesn't. He's a multiple-time GSL champion as well as being the second highest money winner in SC2.
By the way, you're just presenting another opportunity for people to typify Naniwa's fanbase...
May I say that I strongly disagree with that statement:
I would not be proud if nani won by cheesing 4 times in a row, maybe a little less intoxicated by rage than I am right now, but still I would not respect that win. Cheesing all the games in a Bo5 is just saying : I have no chance against you so i'll just backstab you during your sleep. It wins war but it feels dirty and simply brings dishonor on the victory.
This, once again, is not the starcraft we want to see nor is it the one that I can respect.
And people talking about the money are freaking killing me, don't let the money bring all the things we hate about the other sport industries ...
My 2cents
It was never my intention incite hate by mentioning his relative winnings in SC2, it was just an indicator to his success.
On May 02 2012 20:33 yoojaein0131 wrote: i don't understand why you people bash MvP for the things he did.. okay so he cheesed but then again Naniwa cudn't counter any of those? why? once or twice? he knew the rush was coming and still failed to def.... MVP might not have shown a good game but same goes to Naniwa for failing to defend rushes he KNEW were coming it's not a good game from both sides when all things are said and done
I'm personally not bashing anyone and i'm not angry, maybe i would be if i had payed to see good games and got to see that, it's like paying $250 for concert tickets and the band leaving the stage after 2 songs...lol
I hate terran overall, it's the only race that can make tier 1 units and an engineering bay and win 30 minute games with just that....lol
I don't get you people hating MVP for what he has done. He was playing maps and the player, what's wrong with it? He prepared cheeses which catch Nani off guard. You really think it's easy task ? I bet he need to practice much more to prepare perfect cheese - 'cause one to make ideal cheese can't be late for even one second and needs to put his building so that it would be harder to scout. I think this types of games are exactly what make GSL so good. Playing normal straight game is simple task, but playing perfect cheese in Round of 8 in one of the biggest tournament and execute it in such a way that you won requires much more nerves and much more preparation. I personally admire MVP that he has done what he has done and win with it Best of 5 against one of the best player in the world.
Rofl why you all hatin on MVP because he punished a greedy protoss? Mvp has shown us some of the greatest games through his career and he also showed us that he manage sick macrogames as well as cheesy earlygames. Please stop crying cause its really pathetic.
On May 02 2012 20:33 yoojaein0131 wrote: i don't understand why you people bash MvP for the things he did.. okay so he cheesed but then again Naniwa cudn't counter any of those? why? once or twice? he knew the rush was coming and still failed to def.... MVP might not have shown a good game but same goes to Naniwa for failing to defend rushes he KNEW were coming it's not a good game from both sides when all things are said and done
I'm personally not bashing anyone and i'm not angry, maybe i would be if i had payed to see good games and got to see that, it's like paying $250 for concert tickets and the band leaving the stage after 2 songs...lol
I hate terran overall, it's the only race that can make tier 1 units and an engineering bay and win 30 minute games with just that....lol
i understand where you're coming from but you should also realize it would be two VERY intense songs especially considering the amount of micro in those cheeses.
oh and you do realize wen tier 1 units with full upgrades on both sides toss vs terran, it would be more advantageous for toss at 30 mins? rofl it's only up until around the 10 min mark where tier 1 unit for terran is really strong
First of all, Mvp did not cheese 4 times, he cheesed twice. A strong tank/marine build on the first game that eventually countered the Colo 2 base push that Nani was trying to do gave him the first game in the midstage of the game. Game 2 and Game 4 are cheeses, ok. Game 3 was a very fast CC into a composition in the style of 1-1-1 with 4 rax after the first banshee, I don't even know how people can call that a cheese.
But the most important thing is that because Naniwa is cutting so much corner in the early game, he is weak against pushes but very strong in the late game. I don't see the point of letting him unpunished to get crushed afterwards whereas you just need to break him before this point. Naniwa scouted both cheeses and he still didn't manage to defend it. If there is a problem, it's in Naniwa's build, not in Mvp's mind .
a theft is a theft a criminal is a criminal cheese is a cheese. (sigh) .. disappointments always come from high expectations. YES, Mvp, technically did nothing wrong. But, for petes sake! I thought we all agree GSL is the most prestigious sc2 tourney. Well, I doubt that. At the end of the day, our goal is for the money, and money alone. (not the pride, glorious and straight-up battle BS)
Foreigner bias is disgustingly stupid here. What MVP wasn't exactly stellar yes, but to go on and call him a cheese only Terran, that they will no longer respect him and hyperbole that they will cancel their GSL subscription. Wtf is this disgusting attitude.
1. MVP was not liked back when was a "boring" but solid macro player to use the term of some TL people here. And now he's hated because he cheesed "the only foreigner" out of a tournament. He's hated either way.
2. The guy has Carpel Tunnel. Yet he's still one of the top players in the GSL even whilst handicapped. How about that TLO? He has carpel tunnel and he cheeses a lot yet he's a foreign favorite. Hypocrite much? MVP has and can play long macro games if he wants, but for now he doesn't due to his wrists. So what you guys want him to do? Give him a friggin break.
3. If you're a terran not named MarinekingPrime (not even Polt is that good at TvP anymore), good luck dealing with a protoss in the lategame because even the Koreans are struggling with it.
4. GSL is big money. People what it takes to win. Deal with it.
I'm sure if Naniwa won with cheese, people will be claiming "Smart play!" or something stupid like that. Seriously Naniwa fanboys need to shut up. Not to mention I find it disgusting the only highly rated game was the one Naninwa one. What a joke. Every game medicore not just the MVP cheeses.
I'm sure if Naniwa won with cheese, people will be claiming "Smart play!"
Naniwa fanboys need to shut up. .
Gosh, I'm wasting time typing this.
I'm sure if Naniwa won with cheese, people will be claiming "Smart play!"
Let me ask you this. Do you know whats going to happen in the next 10mins? What are you? Fortune Teller sc2 critic? LOL...... Hypocrite much?
Naniwa fanboys need to shut up. .
You said it yourself, "fanboys." What do you expect? appreciation and praises from Naniwa fans to MvP LOL.... Hypocrite much?
Gosh, I'm wasting time typing this
WOW? Really? why even bother reading and typing? .. thats why we have forums for peoples opinions. So, if you think expressing your opinion is a waste of time typing. Do you think your opinion is worth reading? Really? WOW? Pathetic.. LOL.... Hypocrite much?
EDIT: Wait, if I'm reading this thread correctly. Did NaNi get cheesed out by Mvp?
I can see NaNi winning 3 - 0.
Why?
1. I'm not saying Mvp will throw the matches. I definitely think for honorable reasons he will put up a fight but he's probably got a lot less pressure to actually practice considering he's secured his Code S seed for next season, wants to take it easy when rehabilitating his wrists and has already proven himself previously by being a three-time GSL champion and maintaining his Code S status against all ods.
2. NaNi is a fucking beast in PvT and PvP. His PvZ has been lackluster and his only achilles heel (he was knocked out of Code A twice by Lucky and had MLG runs ended twice both by Leenock in Providence 2011 and DongRaeGu in Winter Arena) but .
3. Khaldor stated in a vblog that NaNiwa has been practicing around 60 games a day, grinding them the fuck out and being advised by fellow teammates on where he could make slight deviations. He has practiced so hard that even Korean teammates were like "Fuck dis" and tried dodging him for a bit.
4. Even if as NaNiwa claimed before the GSTL finals, people leaked his strategies amongst the Korean scene and IM got a hold of his planned playstyle, he probably has something solid planned for Mvp that can't necessarily be stopped with a build order counter..
5. NaNi is in it to win. If you give him an opportunity to win something. HE WILL FUCKING GO FOR IT.
6. PvT late game is ridiculously in favour of Protoss and dealing with a combination of Colossus, Storm and even Archons can be nightmarish. Even Polt, a player known for his amazing TvP (I think this was in an interview at either Assembly Winter or IPL4) has admitted Protoss seem more favoured
The games were finished already. And have been so for about 2h. There's about 50 pages of Naniwa fans QQing about MVPs win already if you haven't noticed already. So cut it with the fortune telling crap. I'm just sick of TL people here being hoo hah about foreigners and being butthurt every time they lose.
@Clbull: In a nutshell yes. MVP cheesed/all-ined Naniwa. Though it was half-worthy, since Naniwa was playing extremely greedy. Heck in one game he scouted MVP's cheese very early and still failed to defend against it because he wanted to be greedy. Granted, the series was very mediocre but the comments by Naniwa fans are revolting.
On May 02 2012 20:33 yoojaein0131 wrote: i don't understand why you people bash MvP for the things he did.. okay so he cheesed but then again Naniwa cudn't counter any of those? why? once or twice? he knew the rush was coming and still failed to def.... MVP might not have shown a good game but same goes to Naniwa for failing to defend rushes he KNEW were coming it's not a good game from both sides when all things are said and done
I'm personally not bashing anyone and i'm not angry, maybe i would be if i had payed to see good games and got to see that, it's like paying $250 for concert tickets and the band leaving the stage after 2 songs...lol
I hate terran overall, it's the only race that can make tier 1 units and an engineering bay and win 30 minute games with just that....lol
Well gee, now I wonder why terrans have to use tier 1 units. Let's try playing the game...have you tried MECH vs protoss? It's retardedly awful. It's not Terrans fault that the game designed it so that marine, marauder, ghost, viking and medivac are the most efficient units to use vs toss.
Well I still like MVP, one of my favorite players. But it's sad to watch him taking big gambles every single game while Nani just plays mainly standard.
On May 02 2012 23:07 Leijona wrote: Well I still like MVP, one of my favorite players. But it's sad to watch him taking big gambles every single game while Nani just plays mainly standard.
standard? being that greedy is just as much of a gamble/cheesy play than all-inning, and just as disgusting (not that either play is, in my book).
Naniwa fans should suck it up and face the fact that he's out and only has himself to blame for failing horribly at dealing with what mvp threw at him.
I wasn't able to see the games today, but in my opinion any win is a fair win on this level. As someone said, a greedy opening can be just as cheesy as a proxy rax all in play. Grats to MvP for advancing.
What I want to say is pretty much regardless of todays result. Naniwa can be proud for making Code S Top 8, and for training like a beast, and showing everyone how serious he takes this sport. Congrats on a great Code S season, Nani! You showed them you were worth the seed and I'm sure this is just the beginning.
Upset a foreigner didn't get further, but glad Naniwa lost.
Complaints against "cheese" are stupid though. In a contest you do what you can/need to to win as long as it's within the rules there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Cheese is only despicable on ladder, because it's frustrating and no fun, and laddering is supposed to be fun.
At the pro level, cheese is fair game. As players like Naniwa take risker and riskier econ openers, cheese can and should be used to punish them. I'm a Toss and like Nani as a player, but congrats to MVP, he did what he had to do. At this point, it's like watching Tim Duncan at the later stages of his career, knowing he can't keep up physically and finding different ways to play to his strengths.
Ok what i'm reading is making me tilt in stellar proportions.
We really don't play the same video game. I rarely enjoyed a GSL series as much as this one. A well executed cheese, defending it, and the nerve game it implies, asks more skills than most of the macro games.
The same goes for people speaking about his handicap and the money. If it was a tournament "just for glory", and that he had super-bionic-wrists, this would still be perfect. Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to allow such diversity, and cheese is a great part of it. The micro from both players was fantastic, and my nerves are still shaking from those games. In such a game, every single click is critical, which is not mandatorly the case in a standard, boring, already-seen-10-times macro game.
The people crying against cheese in general because their booty is still red from the last time they got CR'ed, are hurting the game. Blizzard might listen, and they seem to be very eager for an opporunity to make bad calls.
So many Naniwas fan hating mvp now lol First, naniwa is a greedy player and mvp wanted to punish this. Second, MVP cant play long games because his wrist. Third, now Naniwas fan u should shut up because mvp cheesed twice, oh wait, or you are bronze than never accept cheese on ladder games or you guys never cheesed one game before nice.
On May 03 2012 03:09 CrixusRH wrote: mvp the cheese terran. No respect.
-_-' why are 1 liners like this allowed. He cheesed TWO games, and won 1 very good game. How many times have 'fan favorites' done cheeses and been hailed for it? How bout MMA vs Mvp. proxy factory? where is the ZOMG MMA CHEESE TERRAN NO RESPECT. if nothing else, Mvp through time has PROVEN he can play macro, and HAS on more occasions than he has cheesed. To say such baseless statements as above is an insult to someone who has consistently won sc2 tournaments for a large part of 2011 based on his impeccable control, macro, and mechanics. So when he throws in the occasional cheese because ITS THE SMART THING TO DO, he no longer has your respect? ridiculous.
MVP has shown over his career he can play pretty much any style he wants. The only limit to him is his wrist. Naniwa is a good player, but his greedy style seems to get him in trouble in big matches. His "FFE or die" ended with die against Leenock's three consecutive roach busts. Here, pretty much the same thing happened.
Congrats to MVP for once again keeping everyone from putting nails in his coffin and to pulling himself closer to another Code S final with his damaged wrists. Congrats to Naniwa for playing well so far and exceeding pretty much everyone's expectations of him. I look forward to next season of Code S with both these players.
Far more worthy of discussion is how good Parting is. I had a lot of concern for his PvP (obviously his PvT is best in class), but he simply out-classed Oz in every way. Naniwa, despite being the "foreign hope", had a performance that clearly showed him not even close to Parting. He had some interesting strategies, but the execution was nervous/sloppy (game 1 fast collosus build) and when pressured his micro and decision making was certainly not top tier (see cannon/probe control w/ FFE vs SCV rush)
For Protoss as a race, right now Parting is displaying the best strategies, decision making, and micro ..... that is why he's winning. Hard to say if he'll stay at such a high level in all areas though. His micro has been historically super high (MC level or better), but the other areas are affected over time by meta-game shift as well as changes to the actual game (patches, etc). Time will tell. For this GSL though, I'd put him as favorite right now, particularly considering what opponents remain.
On May 03 2012 07:37 Justikhar wrote: Far more worthy of discussion is how good Parting is. I had a lot of concern for his PvP (obviously his PvT is best in class), but he simply out-classed Oz in every way. Naniwa, despite being the "foreign hope", had a performance that clearly showed him not even close to Parting. He had some interesting strategies, but the execution was nervous/sloppy (game 1 fast collosus build) and when pressured his micro and decision making was certainly not top tier (see cannon/probe control w/ FFE vs SCV rush)
For Protoss as a race, right now Parting is displaying the best strategies, decision making, and micro ..... that is why he's winning. Hard to say if he'll stay at such a high level in all areas though. His micro has been historically super high (MC level or better), but the other areas are affected over time by meta-game shift as well as changes to the actual game (patches, etc). Time will tell. For this GSL though, I'd put him as favorite right now, particularly considering what opponents remain.
i know oz knows way more about the game than i probably ever will, and his understanding of everything is fantastic, but that nexus first with 1 cannon simply was baffling, i didnt think it was parting outclassing him it was more of a case oz dug himself into a deep hole, i dont see any code S protoss not being able to break that nexus first. Game 2 involved in my opinion the most fortunate timing of the 2nd immortal possible, if it came out earlier, Oz would have probably seen it and not blinked up, if it came out slightly later Oz would have probably broke through.
The 3rd game oz recovered incredibly well, coming out seemingly ahead after losing his DT shrine and doing nothing with the one DT he did warp in. I dont know if parting set up the trap of blinking into the main then blinking out and trapping Oz's units or if that was improvised, but prior to that oz was looking to be in a better position than parting in that game.
On May 02 2012 20:33 yoojaein0131 wrote: i don't understand why you people bash MvP for the things he did.. okay so he cheesed but then again Naniwa cudn't counter any of those? why? once or twice? he knew the rush was coming and still failed to def.... MVP might not have shown a good game but same goes to Naniwa for failing to defend rushes he KNEW were coming it's not a good game from both sides when all things are said and done
Yeah I can't blame MVP for cheesing, its part of how he wins his championships. I think Naniwa just had too much of a mindset of "just doing enough" to get through the early game with a nice economy so he could let his decision making take over. In a few of those games, if naniwa just pulled all of his probes like a man he is way ahead. MVP was accurate in his interview when he talked about naniwas weak early game.
congratz to mvp. i cannot remember him ever cheesing so much in a bo5 gsl match. that is actually a compliment. i hope his wrist gets better soon, as i want to see the macro terran mvp rather than the cheezy one. it could of course also be due to the fact that protoss are giving terrans a hard time right now.
but i agree, mvp's cheese was spotted a couple times, yet naniwa still wasn't able to stop it... go jung, jong-hyun! though parting's pvt should be on a (or two-three) different level than naniwas...
EPT
ST_PartinG vs ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/misc/naniwa_toss_poster_2012_thum.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/misc/naniwa_toss_poster_2012.jpg)
darn sleep ^_^
