|
Excellent analysis on the  Bisu vs  Shine situation. I'm, as usual, confused by the match ratings. Why does the huge majority of the games get a rating of 5 or less? We are all starcraft fans right? Sure there are games that are so terribly played or so drawn-out that one should be discouraged from watching, but if one player performs a good strategy perfectly, while the other is caught off-guard, then that is watchable, no?
The very first game can serve as example. Both players played well enough, only Neo.G_Soulkey won the mindgame, and performed a mutalisk rush while Snow was expecting something completely different. This game gets a match rating of one out of ten. I cannot understand that at all, when there is a perfectly executed strategy from Soulkey to be seen. Sure, it's not the most interesting game, especially because Snow was caught with his pants down, but neither is it especially boring or especially terrible. Given that both players have a history together, the narrative should go into the possible mindgames behind this short but brutal game, instead of berating Snow for "poor preparation" when there is so much more going on.
Then the second game in the same series, features both players performing extremely unusual strategies, while still playing good starcraft. The narrative actually goes at length describing this interesting game, but in the end, the match rating doesn't go above five! This game had it all, unusual openings, even weirder follow-ups, while Soulkey in particular played very good reacting perfectly to Snow's every move. Surely this game should be recommended to watch and 5/10 does not convey that enough.
In the end, I have no idea what kind of game you guys want to see before you'd recommend it. Apparently only  Flash versus Jaedong is interesting and that only when the stars align. In my opinion the ratings are far, far too low and actually discourage the fans from watching, which I cannot believe to be the goal of the match rating system.
EDIT:
The post below made me realise I forgot to thank you for you hard work on the writeup. It really is appreciated! The qualms I have with the match rating is just a little nitpicking. I hugely enjoyed reading the whole thing whatever the case.
|
I LOVE your BW posts! please keep doing them, there are still alot of us BW fans out there who really appreciate it  !
|
Paralyze has awesome hair lol
|
I really appreciate the prize section of these writeups, and kudos to the Zero Hogil
|
Thanks for the write-up guys. The battle reports in particular must take a lot of effort, so thanks for all your hard work.
As a Bisu fan I actually enjoyed the article. Some of the comments were a little inflammatory, but that's not a bad thing if it ultimately leads to informed and interesting debate. I'm in agreement with infinitestory that Bisu is out of his slump, improving, but not at his KTS level.
While I agree with disciple that maps definitely play a part, I also agree with Milkis that S-Class players should be able to rise above the map-bias.
|
Oooh another controversial article! Great read as usual.
Now I've got to ask you guys to refrain from your usual habits of taking your laptops to the bathroom and reading our reports on the can, because we're going to come out with the group selection report in short order! So set some time aside and give this week's report a careful read, and you'll stay up to speed.
Whaaat.... that was only the one time >.> <.<
|
It apparently has not yet occurred to TL writers, or anyone on TL, that Shine is actually a good player? Bisu goes on a monster streak going back to the end of last season, loses to Shine again, OH GOD HE'S NOT BACK HE'S ON A FLUKY PL STREAK LIKE SHINE IS RIGHT NOW! Elitists. All of you!
|
great writeup. its always great to see a player like Hogil in the ro. 16
|
United States4053 Posts
On December 06 2010 11:24 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
It apparently has not yet occurred to TL writers, or anyone on TL, that Shine is actually a good player? Bisu goes on a monster streak going back to the end of last season, loses to Shine again, OH GOD HE'S NOT BACK HE'S ON A FLUKY PL STREAK LIKE SHINE IS RIGHT NOW! Elitists. All of you!
i noticed it :D
as well as a couple other people i've seen who have been saying "hey look at shine, he has 4 losses this season, 10 game win streak, maybe he is doing something right"
|
Great write-up, the bisu-fanboy debate aside.
|
I don't think Bisu is playing worse than he was at his prime, he just got overtaken by Flash and JD. This is not a huge revelation, it's exactly what has been happening throughout the history of Starcraft...some guy is on top, then eventually a new player comes along who challenges him, beats him and assumes dominance for a period of time, thus pushing the skill ceiling even higher. Bisu may have been on top, but now the rest of the field has caught up and he has to be content with his place as one of many "good" players.
The person who eventually rises and pushes Flash/JD out of top position is not going to be a hero from the past like Bisu or Stork, it will be someone new.
|
|
|
Tosses are all sucking right now, really need someone new to step up.
|
Hong Kong20321 Posts
bisu is...half back then? 
BISUU WHYY
|
United States33608 Posts
On December 06 2010 05:11 infinitestory wrote:
it's definitely not a coincidence that whenever players go on a strong run people say "hey this guy is good"... and when the run ends people say "he was never good to begin with"
edit: e.g. Bisu, Action are 2 prominent examples... Baby to a lesser extent.
edit 2: blagh, to clarify, i meant "never good to begin with" as in "this streak is total luck, bisu doesn't have more skill than he did during the slump"
It's much more complicated than that. People look at the quality of the games.
For example, I don't think anyone would say Baby was never good and just got lucky. The quality of his play during his runs showed that he has amazing talent and is one of the best players in the world when he can play 100%. We just learned that he is very inconsistent as a player.
|
United States33608 Posts
On December 06 2010 06:10 MisteR wrote:Excellent analysis on the Bisu vs Shine situation. I'm, as usual, confused by the match ratings. Why does the huge majority of the games get a rating of 5 or less? We are all starcraft fans right? Sure there are games that are so terribly played or so drawn-out that one should be discouraged from watching, but if one player performs a good strategy perfectly, while the other is caught off-guard, then that is watchable, no? The very first game can serve as example. Both players played well enough, only Neo.G_Soulkey won the mindgame, and performed a mutalisk rush while Snow was expecting something completely different. This game gets a match rating of one out of ten. I cannot understand that at all, when there is a perfectly executed strategy from Soulkey to be seen. Sure, it's not the most interesting game, especially because Snow was caught with his pants down, but neither is it especially boring or especially terrible. Given that both players have a history together, the narrative should go into the possible mindgames behind this short but brutal game, instead of berating Snow for "poor preparation" when there is so much more going on. Then the second game in the same series, features both players performing extremely unusual strategies, while still playing good starcraft. The narrative actually goes at length describing this interesting game, but in the end, the match rating doesn't go above five! This game had it all, unusual openings, even weirder follow-ups, while Soulkey in particular played very good reacting perfectly to Snow's every move. Surely this game should be recommended to watch and 5/10 does not convey that enough. In the end, I have no idea what kind of game you guys want to see before you'd recommend it. Apparently only Flash versus Jaedong is interesting and that only when the stars align. In my opinion the ratings are far, far too low and actually discourage the fans from watching, which I cannot believe to be the goal of the match rating system. EDIT: The post below made me realise I forgot to thank you for you hard work on the writeup. It really is appreciated! The qualms I have with the match rating is just a little nitpicking. I hugely enjoyed reading the whole thing whatever the case.
Match Rating is basically a subjective measure of "entertainment," not an overall indicator of the skill level shown in the match. A mostly one-sided game will struggle to get above a 5/10 (which is dead-center average) when I am rating.
The player ratings we did last season were the system we used to measure the skill level in a game... but we've stopped doing them temporarily because they were Kwark's call for the most part. And now he's addicted to EVE online or something stupid -_-. We hope to have him back for the RO16 =o
|
United States33608 Posts
On December 06 2010 11:24 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
It apparently has not yet occurred to TL writers, or anyone on TL, that Shine is actually a good player? Bisu goes on a monster streak going back to the end of last season, loses to Shine again, OH GOD HE'S NOT BACK HE'S ON A FLUKY PL STREAK LIKE SHINE IS RIGHT NOW! Elitists. All of you!
A 10-0 streak would be considered fluky for pretty much any player outside the top 3~4.
I think we have a pretty good assessment on how good Shine is, and it says that he's not a top 4 player.
|
|
|
About match rating: I agree with OP. If something strategical clever happens which can be told in 3 lines of text I'd rather just read it then spend 20 minutes watching a game which might be otherwise boring. I don't have too much time left, which should be spend on watching teh most entertaining game.
|
On December 06 2010 04:09 Milkis wrote:
Do you really think Bisu is the MSL favorite over Jaedong, Flash, and god forbid, Shine? Calling him the "MSL Favorite" when Jaedong Flash Fantasy and so many other great players is being ridiculous. Your second claim is terribly off.
Well, no, not "the" favorite. But "a" favorite, certainly. I could be overestimating him, of course.
On December 06 2010 04:09 Milkis wrote:
He's not "back", he's just an average "good" player now. To say that a "top player" is "back" you would need a lot more than "he caught a lucky streak in the Proleague", because let's face it, you can expect Flash and Jaedong to pull of those streaks, I would not expect Bisu to go on another streak of over 5 games in the Proleague.
I don't expect anybody to pull anything much over 5 or 6 wins - ever. If you can, you need a little bit of luck but it's also a good indicator that the player is pretty damn good.
On December 06 2010 04:09 Milkis wrote:
Bisu's far from the best Protoss at the moment, or I pray that the entire Protoss race is rubbish when he is considered the best Protoss. I would give that to Kal, and sorry, why are you downplaying Kal just so you can give the "Best Protoss Award" to Bisu? Just because "his peak isn't just high"?
It's not snubbing Kal if I think Bisu is actually better. Between Kal, free, and Bisu, it's really close right now - Bisu's got a better Proleague record, but Kal and free both have dual leagues still. I actually gave the nod to free at #1, not Bisu - but the three are basically indistinguishable in terms of skill at the moment. I think. Obviously you can disagree.
On December 06 2010 04:09 Milkis wrote:
There's no logic here that says "Because Bisu lost to Shine, Bisu must be a bad player" despite how many times you guys try to play it off that way. I personally found his play in proleague underwhelming which is why I believe his 12 game streak to be a lucky streak more than anything else -- not because Bisu is bad, but because Bisu isn't great and it's not something he will be able to pull off consistently unlike Flash who seems to get 10+ winning streaks with ease. Don't try to twist logic around here, it's not just because of his loss to Shine.
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Though I actually think that, "He lost to Shine so he's not great," is better reasoning than, "That 12-game winstreak was a fluke because he's not great." 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
