EPTNice write up ^^
[OSL] 2010 Bacchus OSL - RO36 Weeks 3 & 4 - Page 2
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SeeDLiNg
United States690 Posts
Nice write up ^^ | ||
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nehl
Germany270 Posts
the only way for me to get theses matches since i cannot watch them all  | ||
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EviL.sc
Portugal82 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On December 06 2010 03:01 Musoeun wrote: Bisu as a serious threat to win most games is definitely "back". Bisu as THE S-Class player of the year, MSL favorite, OSL should-win-but-always-fails-in-goofy-ways... well, the first part isn't, because Flash and Jaedong are so far ahead of everybody, including Bisu. But the second looks right about on track so far. If Bisu gets creamed in the MSL too, then maybe he's just "back" to say a Sea-level player: proleague stud, threat but not favorite in leagues. In terms of sheer scary, Bisu's the best Protoss right now, even with the loss to Shine. Kal is more consistent, but his peak - despite the ace match win over Bisu - isn't as high. I don't think. I think free is actually better than Bisu, but he's got a far less flashy style and just doesn't inspire the same fear. Other than those two, who else is there? Stork is playing inconsistent, even sloppy; BeSt can't win a PvZ to save his life; Violet, Stats, Snow, etc all keep taking bad losses. And losing to Shine is not a bad loss. To me, Bisu losing to Shine is like Flash losing to BeSt: you lose to a slightly worse player who's got a strong matchup where your race and personal style is weak. Let's say BeSt knocks Flash out of a Starleague at some point (not completely impossible); do we conclude "Damn, Flash must not be god-bonjwa, he lost to a not so great player"? Because that's what you've done with Bisu. I'm not saying Bisu's necessarily "back" in all his fantastic glory, but as "serious challenger for title of best Protoss" he's definitely back. I'd personally put free ahead, but it's really close. Do you really think Bisu is the MSL favorite over Jaedong, Flash, and god forbid, Shine? Calling him the "MSL Favorite" when Jaedong Flash Fantasy and so many other great players is being ridiculous. Your second claim is terribly off. He's not "back", he's just an average "good" player now. To say that a "top player" is "back" you would need a lot more than "he caught a lucky streak in the Proleague", because let's face it, you can expect Flash and Jaedong to pull of those streaks, I would not expect Bisu to go on another streak of over 5 games in the Proleague. Bisu's far from the best Protoss at the moment, or I pray that the entire Protoss race is rubbish when he is considered the best Protoss. I would give that to Kal, and sorry, why are you downplaying Kal just so you can give the "Best Protoss Award" to Bisu? Just because "his peak isn't just high"? I dunno. Bisu is definitely good (I did give him an A-, after all, but it's an "A-" like I gave free an A-). I would say Bisu is on par with Free atm. He's a "contender" for the Best Protoss but the Best Protosses aren't even close to the level of good Terrans and good Zergs at the moment. If that's what you mean by "back", then I question Bisu's so called dominance 2 or 3 years ago. When people say someone is back, that means they're back to their peak form, not to a shell of their former self. There's no logic here that says "Because Bisu lost to Shine, Bisu must be a bad player" despite how many times you guys try to play it off that way. I personally found his play in proleague underwhelming which is why I believe his 12 game streak to be a lucky streak more than anything else -- not because Bisu is bad, but because Bisu isn't great and it's not something he will be able to pull off consistently unlike Flash who seems to get 10+ winning streaks with ease. Don't try to twist logic around here, it's not just because of his loss to Shine. | ||
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Jarhead
United States53 Posts
Now I've got to ask you guys to refrain from your usual habits of taking your laptops to the bathroom and reading our reports on the can How did you know??? | ||
infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
On December 06 2010 04:09 Milkis wrote: Do you really think Bisu is the MSL favorite over Jaedong, Flash, and god forbid, Shine? Calling him the "MSL Favorite" when Jaedong Flash Fantasy and so many other great players is being ridiculous. Your second claim is terribly off. He's not "back", he's just an average "good" player now. To say that a "top player" is "back" you would need a lot more than "he caught a lucky streak in the Proleague", because let's face it, you can expect Flash and Jaedong to pull of those streaks, I would not expect Bisu to go on another streak of over 5 games in the Proleague. Bisu's far from the best Protoss at the moment, or I pray that the entire Protoss race is rubbish when he is considered the best Protoss. I would give that to Kal, and sorry, why are you downplaying Kal just so you can give the "Best Protoss Award" to Bisu? Just because "his peak isn't just high"? I dunno. Bisu is definitely good (I did give him an A-, after all, but it's an "A-" like I gave free an A-). I would say Bisu is on par with Free atm. He's a "contender" for the Best Protoss but the Best Protosses aren't even close to the level of good Terrans and good Zergs at the moment. If that's what you mean by "back", then I question Bisu's so called dominance 2 or 3 years ago. When people say someone is back, that means they're back to their peak form, not to a shell of their former self. There's no logic here that says "Because Bisu lost to Shine, Bisu must be a bad player" despite how many times you guys try to play it off that way. I personally found his play in proleague underwhelming which is why I believe his 12 game streak to be a lucky streak more than anything else -- not because Bisu is bad, but because Bisu isn't great and it's not something he will be able to pull off consistently unlike Flash who seems to get 10+ winning streaks with ease. Don't try to twist logic around here, it's not just because of his loss to Shine. Quoting this because Bisu is going to win his next 5 games in Proleague. | ||
disciple
9070 Posts
On December 06 2010 04:09 Milkis wrote: Do you really think Bisu is the MSL favorite over Jaedong, Flash, and god forbid, Shine? Calling him the "MSL Favorite" when Jaedong Flash Fantasy and so many other great players is being ridiculous. Your second claim is terribly off. He's not "back", he's just an average "good" player now. To say that a "top player" is "back" you would need a lot more than "he caught a lucky streak in the Proleague", because let's face it, you can expect Flash and Jaedong to pull of those streaks, I would not expect Bisu to go on another streak of over 5 games in the Proleague. Bisu's far from the best Protoss at the moment, or I pray that the entire Protoss race is rubbish when he is considered the best Protoss. I would give that to Kal, and sorry, why are you downplaying Kal just so you can give the "Best Protoss Award" to Bisu? Just because "his peak isn't just high"? I dunno. Bisu is definitely good (I did give him an A-, after all, but it's an "A-" like I gave free an A-). I would say Bisu is on par with Free atm. He's a "contender" for the Best Protoss but the Best Protosses aren't even close to the level of good Terrans and good Zergs at the moment. If that's what you mean by "back", then I question Bisu's so called dominance 2 or 3 years ago. When people say someone is back, that means they're back to their peak form, not to a shell of their former self. There's no logic here that says "Because Bisu lost to Shine, Bisu must be a bad player" despite how many times you guys try to play it off that way. I personally found his play in proleague underwhelming which is why I believe his 12 game streak to be a lucky streak more than anything else -- not because Bisu is bad, but because Bisu isn't great and it's not something he will be able to pull off consistently unlike Flash who seems to get 10+ winning streaks with ease. Don't try to twist logic around here, it's not just because of his loss to Shine. No great player came back naturally to his dominant form. The real reason why protoss is getting raped so badly is the tvp. Back in 2007 the 2 best terrans in the world were Hwasin and Sea and the protoss finally got the chance to dominate in a match up for a long period of time. You think it all came together for Flash, all of a sudden? Or he started destroying tosses right after maps such as Medusa, Destination and HBR were removed. Coincidence and stroke of flash's brilliance? I think not. Everyone from Jaedong Flash Bisu and Stork may dominate again if he gets the maps. Bisu and Stork will never dominate again or be "back" in the sense you are talking about w/o the help of the map makers. | ||
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mmdmmd
722 Posts
On December 06 2010 04:29 infinitestory wrote: Quoting this because Bisu is going to win his next 5 games in Proleague. Quoting this because Bisu is going into another mini slump! ^.^ | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
Or he started destroying tosses right after maps such as Medusa, Destination and HBR were removed. Coincidence and stroke of flash's brilliance? I think not. Everyone from Jaedong Flash Bisu and Stork may dominate again if he gets the maps. Flash is 4-2 in HBR/NHBR vs P Flash is 7-1 in Medusa vs P Admittedly, Flash did badly on Destination vs P, but I don't see your point in blaming everything on the maps. Bisu and Stork will never dominate again or be "back" in the sense you are talking about w/o the help of the map makers. I don't think I can argue with this claim (especially since it's such a subjective argument) so we'll just agree to disagree here :O | ||
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pieisamazing
United States1234 Posts
Okay that was pretty gay. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
HBR: 3-0 Destination: 8-0 Medusa: 7-2 You see know what I mean? This was the set of maps on which raged the entire JD vs Bisu bonjwa debate from 2009, although Flash was doing fairly well on the same maps, it was Stork and Bisu that finally could abuse the maps for themselves and completely eclipse the performance of Flash. Looking at the stats, its clear that Bisu's pvz is better than ever, no matter how badly your wemade fox fanboy heart wants it to be otherwise. Its the PvT that brought the infamous Yong Taek image you were telling us about - sacrificing whole armies in terran walls, recalling on mines, getting raped by 2facs and vultures. | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On December 06 2010 04:58 disciple wrote: Bisu's tvp on HBR: 3-0 Destination: 8-0 Medusa: 7-2 You see know what I mean? This was the set of maps on which raged the entire JD vs Bisu bonjwa debate from 2009, although Flash was doing fairly well on the same maps, it was Stork and Bisu that finally could abuse the maps for themselves and eclipse the performance of Flash. Looking at the stats, its clear that Bisu's pvz is better than ever, no matter how badly your wemade fox fanboy heart wants it to be otherwise. Its the PvT that brought the infamous Yong Taek image you were telling us about - sacrificing whole armies in terran walls, recalling on mines, getting raped by 2facs and vultures. Yeah doesn't seem to help that Bisu's PvZ was 4-4 on HBR, 7-4 on Destination, right? Of course different maps help different play styles but I HONESTLY cannot believe you're ridiculing Bisu this much by pretty much just admitting Bisu cannot adjust to maps or something despite him trying really hard to do so this season? If you're good, you're good, and you will adjust to Maps, which is why S class players are S class. By admitting that you're pretty much saying Bisu's dominance was a flash in the pan made by maps? How do you explain Jaedong and Flash's dominance for such a long period then? Maps again? Going by that definition Bisu was never dominant, he was just lucky with the maps. This is why this is such a poor way of defining things. What does my "wemade fox fanboy heart" have to do with anything? Sorry, if you're implying I'm somehow "biased" because Shine > Bisu then I'm just going to laugh about that. | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
edit: e.g. Bisu, Action are 2 prominent examples... Baby to a lesser extent. edit 2: blagh, to clarify, i meant "never good to begin with" as in "this streak is total luck, bisu doesn't have more skill than he did during the slump" | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On December 06 2010 05:11 infinitestory wrote: it's definitely not a coincidence that whenever players go on a strong run people say "hey this guy is good"... and when the run ends people say "he was never good to begin with" edit: e.g. Bisu, Action are 2 prominent examples... Baby to a lesser extent. There's no one saying Bisu was "never good to begin with" so I would prefer if you didn't use that wording. I'm assuming the fact that Bisu was once the dominant S rank player, and that he's nowhere as nearly skilled as before. disciple seems to be arguing that Bisu is still as good as he was before, it's just the maps changed so that Bisu can't perform. I'm jsut saying if this is true then he's no more than a flash in the pan that's slowly heating away. | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
This will eventually become the typical "my guy is playing awesome cause I like him, and because I dont like the other guy, he will never be good enough". Even if flash is by far the most talented sc player of all time, the sheer skill of bisu flash and jaedong is similar, its all about motivation, momentum and maps. | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
to some, including me, it just means he's out of the horrendous slump that dogged him throughout the previous proleague season to you and others, it seems, it means he's returned to his peak - and few players ever return to their peak. bisu is going through a resurgence, and given a matchup with nearly anyone bar Shine, Fantasy, Flash, and Jaedong, I'd favor Bisu. But he's not the S-Class that would be favored against everyone, for sure. To say that Bisu is a "decent player who had a statistically improbable streak" is completely unfair, though. "decent player who had a statistically improbable streak" might be Killer or PerfectMan. But not Bisu. | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On December 06 2010 05:24 disciple wrote: Jaedong's dominance ? Dont get me started - free wins bullshit maps like ToTM, holy world, Byzantium etc. Sure he is insanely good, but the maps are such an overwhelming factor. I wonder why he got to play so much zvz in the same season (and actually losing a couple of important matches, vs calm in msl and effort in gom). S class is always S class ? Do you even remember how pathetic flash was playing for his potential for long periods back in 2008? Was that S class performance and how exactly was he adjusting? And no, you are not adjusting to the maps (unless you are savior), there are 3 races in starcraft, flash jaedong and bisu have completely different problems to solve, that are specific for their respective race. If the maps are straight up bad for your race, there is no chance for you to be dominant in competition with about equal skill. Did any zerg or Jaedong adjust to Tiamat ? No, he got raped by forgg. This will eventually become the typical "my guy is playing awesome cause I like him, and because I dont like the other guy, he will never be good enough". Even if flash is by far the most talented sc player of all time, the sheer skill of bisu flash and jaedong is similar, its all about motivation, momentum and maps. Are you seriously going to look at 5 total TvZs games played on that map and say that? You seem to have some ridiculous view of Starcraft lol | ||
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disciple
9070 Posts
Or maybe 10 more PvZs on ToTM, who knows, the METAGAME might've changed. The simple reason why there are so few games on these maps is because they are not getting used in PL. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Needless to say, it never happened, probably because it's impossible. In my opinion, protoss get screwed harder by maps than anyone else. Also, Bisu isn't only good on P maps, before his extended slump Bisu had an insane record on Fighting Spirit. Of course even if Bisu loses you can't say "he was never good," but you can say "his career is over"/"he'll never be back" or something. But Bisu still has the skill to beat Flash and Jaedong, but it seems that his decision-making is suffering, probably from all his months of not being relevant in the BW scene. But as someone said before, it's easier to become a smarter player than a more mechanically sound one. | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
Honestly, Bisu currently reminds me of like how Flash was in 2009 where he was a great PL player but just couldn't make it happen in the individual leagues. Flash was better then than Bisu is now (and Flash never had trouble at least getting into both leagues), but in terms of the ability to dominate bad players and inability to adjust, there are a lot of similarities there. Also, I love how the great whiners Bisu and Stork lead the way for Protoss fans to be huge whiners about maps. Yeah Flash and Jaedong haven't overcome EVERY SINGLE tough map in the last few years but they've come close, as opposed to Bisu/Stork who seem like they just want to lay down and die while reminiscing about fall 2008. | ||
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