Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article represent those of Plexa and riptide only and do not necessarily represent the collective views of the TeamLiquid staff
Welcome to Backseat Broodwar. Everyday on these forums and elsewhere in the vast expanses of ignorance known as the Internets, hundreds of fans express their views on the latest developments in the progaming scene. Of course, a majority of those views are crap. BB is here to give you the lowdown on what's good and bad in Starcraft. If you want relativity, shades of opinion and think that everyone has a point, you're in the wrong place. If you, on the other hand, believe in right and wrong and the protection of all that we hold dear, read on. We don't claim to be an authority on SC. We are one.
Moving on, what better way to start our maiden column than to address a timeless topic that recently resurfaced on TL - respecting old progamers. While giving kudos to the OP of that thread for the motive behind his post, we have to say that the way he went about it is misguided.
See, noobs are like most pre teens - they're always angsty, seldom capable of original thought and will constantly express the desire to copulate furiously with whatever bandwagon is passing their bedroom window. Two years ago it was Bisu, now it's Jaedong, tomorrow it could be Backho or Lomo. The point is, it shouldn't bother you. Every sport has shallow fans who are attracted to current winners - they're an occupational hazard and you have to learn to deal with them.
Having said that, we have to accept that the likes of Boxer and Yellow will probably never be at the top of Broodwar again, the distinction here being of course that we really couldn't care less. After Hillary, many people have climbed Everest, but who do we remember? Moving to sports, ditto Jordan, Maradona, Bradman - their records will fall, but will their memory ever fade?
Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
Yeah, nobody cares, noob.
Having said that, it's time to now chide the OP for saying that Team Liquid doesn't respect old gamers. Are you kidding us, sir? Team Liquid is not the bazillions of Bisu-Jaedong-Flash bandwaggoning fans you see everyday in Live Report threads (or, as it turns out, everywhere the B word is used). No, Team Liquid, and its outlook on progaming is summed up best in the Final Edits, the site's elitist opinion columns, an arena that is home to articles like Only Until Midnight, Slivers of Perfection and The Storm Zerg. These are what represent TL and its views on progaming, not the combined jibbering of a few thousand crazed fanboys. At Team Liquid we have always had, and always will have the utmost respect for the titans of Broodwar. In fact, we're going to take a moment to point you in the direction of our coverage of the Heritage league which was held earlier this year.
On July 27 2009 10:26 riptide wrote: There is a reason that the likes of Bisu, Jaedong and Flash refer to Lim Yo Hwan as Hyung. There is a reason that despite his current form, commentators still get excited whenever Ma Jae Yoon enters the booth. There is a reason why when Kang Min speaks, people listen and that reason was on full display during these two weeks of Starcraft as these titans walked among us. As you watch or rewatch these games, and think about what they have given us, my hope is that years from now, when you look back on this era, that you, even you who were not around when Lim Yo Hwan triple bunker rushed Hong Jin Ho, will be able to point to Heritage and say, I watched those legends, I watched them live, and it was magnificient.
Above all, we hope that as you look back on this tournament you will see it not just as their heritage, but as yours, for even as Broodwar draws to a close over these next few months and years, we will forever carry with us these games, these players, these moments of joy and pain, and that when people, many years from now say hey, do you remember that game Starcraft?, you will only be able to nod and smile slowly to yourself, for where, or how, will you begin to explain to them the sum of what you have experienced here, in these days and hours, these weeks, months and years, in this age of Broodwar when titans walked among us.
Men rise and fall like the winter wheat, but these names will never die.
Let them say we lived in the time of Boxer, Emperor of Terran.
Let them say we lived in the time of Nal_rA, Dreamer of Protoss.
Let them say we lived in the time of Savior, son of the swarm.
On a similar note, the BBBonjwa discussion was started again this week (or maybe it just continued from another thread, it's hard to tell these days), and as usual turned into a Jaedong vs Bisu fan fight in under two pages. While thanking Doctor Helvetica for creating such a stellar OP, we must take a moment to berate the people who so quickly derailed the discussion. Seriously, stop it, guys. Opinions are opinions, and everyone is entitled to them, even idiots. Yes, Backseat Broodwar believes strongly that misinformed newbs should be allowed to spout nonsense far and wide, and by far and wide we mean away from TL.
In fact, we feel that this is an opportune moment as any to introduce our new Ban on Bonjwa rule. By decree of the Men in Red, any mention of the newly outlawed word Bonjwa (variants included) will result in a 1 week, non revocable banishment from these shores. Repeat offenders will get a fully paid permanent vacation to Disneyland.
Sigh, we wish. But two nerds can dream, right?
There is a new face around the TL staff – Aesop joins the ranks due to his incredibly valued work on Liquipedia. Working on Liquipedia is like uploading VODs to Nevake, or adding games to TLPD - it's a thankless job. It's a miracle that anything even happens over there, really! Aesop has already started promoting people on Liquipedia and the staff is getting all shaken up. He's got some pretty ambitious plans for the project which you'll all hopefully enjoy! (Including a follow up episode of Strategy Q&A).
Moving on to Starcraft proper, some pretty surprising things have happened since the seasons started up again. Most recently, let's look at Backho vs Calm game 1 from the OSL. What the hell, Backho? Since when did you learn to play Anytime Style? As I (Plexa) maintain, for once Backho didn't look confused or pathetic (or cheesy) and instead looked incredibly sexy as he smashed Calm from wall to wall with impressive Dark Templar play. I know Artosis hates DTs, but surely he has to give Backho credit for pulling it off.
In fact, the whole Backho vs Calm series is pretty non-standard and really interesting and entertaining. Backho is starting to emerge as an intelligent player (never thought I'd have to say that) and up against another intelligent player, such as Calm, the resulting games are always entertaining. For instance, it's not everyday you see 4 Reavers running after drones in a PvZ. If you contrast Game 1 to Game 3 I think it shows how both players have adapted to each others playstyles well - a sign of an intelligent player - and that both sides were pretty much evenly matched in both mechanics and intellect. It was just little things, like Backho not losing his cool as Calm sniped his Templar, which really impressed me the most (since before Backho would have just relentlessly attacked, and lost). While Calm walked away with the victory, I think Backho can be proud of the games he played here.
While we're on the subject of Hwaseung - since when did Hwaseung become more than a one man team? Hwaseung have had probably the most impressive results so far of any team - well, at least in terms of long term potential. You have new players like Perfectman and Killer stepping up and taking wins. Special mention goes out to Hiya who is looking damn fine at the moment. With team mates actually winning games this season, I think Jaedong is getting bored for the first time ever since he's been on the bench so much! Also, Killer was played over Jaedong in the STX-OZ Ace match. Wait, WHAT?
In other news, Bisu's trademark inconsistency-at-the-worst-possible-time reared its ugly head again - this time against Shine in the OSL. To Shine's credit, ZvP is his best matchup, but seriously Bisu - we expect more from the "best" toss in the world. After how Backho played against Calm I'm inclined to say he's looking better than you are at the moment – and that's a serious issue. If you've read my stuff before, you know I've pinpointed this problem of Bisu's as his number one weakness and well, to everyone in my Jaedong article who tried to say otherwise; here's your proof once again. Now Bisu gets to sit on the sidelines for this OSL; at least he has an MSL seed this season (for whatever it's worth, the MSL qualification system is absolutely horrendous and he'll likely pick another easy group and get eliminated again).
Why did Jaehoon dye his hair? Now he just looks like a tool.
Speaking of inconsistency, Jaehoon qualified for the OSL. What happened there? Did all his opponents just not show up or something? Well, semi-true. Nal_keke retired and out went his only serious Zerg challenge. Then, factor in a bunch of nice PvT maps and we guess you can kinda explain how he got there... Nevertheless, on the whole many more MBC players qualified for leagues this time around - something which hasn't happened for many, many seasons. Saint has already made a splash in the MSL - he played a pretty cool game with Movie. But I guess the credit for why that game was awesome goes to Movie, and not Saint. Saint just blundered away a huge advantage to Movie - and in doing so allowed Movie to show off his reaver skills.
Let me (Plexa) draw special mention to Pusan though, because after all I'm easily his biggest fan on site/on earth. He went 12-0 through the prelims and thent 4-1 in his OSL group. That means he is 16-1 since the season began. Those are some pretty nice stats! Additionally, in my opinion (and not Hot_bid's), Pusan is playing some really solid Starcraft. Maybe it's time for the last neo-king to take a league? Ah, now that's what dreams are made of.
The Fat Man is Back!
When it comes to coaching, all we hear these days is Coach Park this, or Coach Cho that, the latter applying to both OZ and CJ. Today though, we're going to look at a more subtle coaching change that seems to have just begun making waves. What? We're talking about MBC, and the return of Coach Ha! After a year of some terrible coach running the team into the ground, Ha has returned and the team looks great. People don't think Coaches matter too much - not even Artosis. But that's probably because he hasn't seen what a bad coach does to a good team, and conversely what a good coach does to a bad team. Whoever that guy was that coached MBC last season, we know for a fact that practice sessions in the MBC house turned stale under his rule. Players weren't improving, nor were they focused on the task at hand. The coach was more content to let the players lose, stagnate and lose some more than do anything about it. Coach Ha (and Coach Park of SKT) promote a stimulating practice environment and as a consequence the players get more out of traning. Indeed, Coach Park is the unsung hero of the SKT Proleague 08-09 victory since he literally took the team from 9th place to 1st.
Speaking of of returning to form though - welcome back Luxury, we missed you! While it is commonly believed that Shark invented Muta micro (in the sense he discovered the larvae trick). There is an alternative theory that Luxury actually discovered the trick - we guess it's more plausible that Shark did since he was on the same team as July - but hey! Luxury has made better use of the ability so far in his career than Shark has. Nevertheless, after a season of sucking, he's finally back on form and playing some amazing games. Just check out Luxury vs UpMagic if you don't believe me.
UpMagic gained a pretty significant advantage using an unconventional drop strategy - but Luxury held his ground and stuck it out. Eventually he clawed his way back in and forced the game into an elimination race. There he made the better decisions on the spot and was able to outsmart UpMagic and take the win. We felt that UpMagic's decision making in the late game was quite lacking for a player who's reputation is almost entirely built on strategy, so that was disappointing for me. But nevertheless, as a Luxury owner in Fantasy PL, I'm (Plexa) not too upset! Incidentally, it appears that only one of the Zerg-twins can be inform at any given time because Yarnc is playing terribly at the moment.
Zergs across the board have been doing well against Protoss lately, a point noted by Motbob. Perhaps Motbob's claim that PvZ is imbalanced is a bit over the top - but we think the statement has some merit if you just consider the maps and trends today. It's not just Shine defeating Bisu, it's things like the 60% Z>P winrate in both the MST Prelims and OSL Prelims, where other matchups were closer to 50%. Also, Outsider and Heartbreak both are Z>P maps according to TLPD (when considering all games played, not just televised). Of course, one thing to keep in mind that statistics can be manipulated to prove anything. So if you don't want to believe the raw stats then maybe the TLPD map Balance table is more suited to you - it is only concerned with televised games but takes into consideration the elo of the players playing. Turns out that under this measure, Ousider is balanced in everything but ZvT (where Z>T). Very interesting!
After the huge Finger Booming fiasco, KT have emerged with a brand new name and uniform. And we gotta say that damn, thats a good looking uniform. It reminds us a bit of the KTF Black uniform (which was amazing). The uniform still can't hold a torch to some of the older team uniforms, but in today's environment with JulyZerg wearing skinny jeans and Woongjin wearing polos this is a refreshing move in the right direction.
Nal_ra sporting the KTF Black uniform -- oh so sexy
Speaking of new uniforms, it looks like MBC has got a brand new uniform as well. One word - disaster. After many faithful seasons of the traditional MBC uniform, which all 7 MBC Hero fans adore, they've finally changed the uniform. But the new uniform is so so sooo bad. It's worse than Jaehoon's hair. And in fact, when combined with Jaehoon's hair - it clashes terribly. We suspect more teams will be unveiling new uniforms over the coming week so expect Backseat Broodwar to tear each one to shreds.
A change in uniform isn't always a good thing
What else happened recently.. Ah yes, Calm vs Movie happened! Go watch it if you haven't! We haven't seen that turn up in the recommended games yet, but it is a great game exemplifying the brilliance of Calm. Movie gains a pretty huge advantage early on and the rest of the game is Calm exploiting tricks like burrow to make a comeback win - a really reassuring sign for Calm fans (like myself). Calm looks set to be a real heavyweight in this OSL. With a favourable map pool and Protoss getting crushed left right and center, could Calm be the next person to walk the royal road? (Riptide thinks so).
To end we’d like to single out two players who are really disappointing us at the moment. They are BeSt and fOrGG. Both player have made the finals before – fOrGG even walked away with a title. But right now they both look terrible. BeSt got run over by Classic who did use a really cool strategy, but ultimately BeSt shouldn’t be losing to mediocre Terrans. At least he crushed Chavi - whatever that counts for. fOrGG lost to Sangho miserably, and then put up a pathetic fight against Pusan in the OSL. To top it all off he just lost to han as well. Why must you make Plexa's fantasy team cry fOrGG!! BeSt is up against Pusan later in the week – which should be a pretty interesting encounter since they both have the same style – and that game should also give a good indication of how good/bad Pusan/Best is doing.
It's interesting really, because we both like Pusan and Calm a lot, and as luck would have it, they're both playing really well these days. As we head into the leagues in the coming weeks, rest assured that we'll be talking more and more about these players and why we like them.
These are exciting times to be a Starcraft fan. Unfortunately, they're also annoying ones. If you aren't aboard the Bisu/Jaedong train, it can get pretty intimidating because you tend to run into the blathering masses around every turn. If you're like us though, and prefer to examine Starcraft through well worn lenses, then join us again next week for another episode of Backseat Broodwar, the only progaming column that beats noobs over the head with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Is there an article coming out at some point about that map balance table thing? I'd love to see it explained (and also to see the title on the page capitalized properly so it fits in with the rest of the tlpd).
On October 18 2009 14:35 jalstar wrote: butthurt detected
sick post brah
Good article Plexa, as always. Keep it up!
seriously boxer and savior and their peers are the most respected players on TL, the OP has some sort of weird persecution complex.
the real retardedness on TL comes from people thinking that boxer or savior or reach or someone could actually make a comeback and dominate again, just move on already.
On October 18 2009 14:35 jalstar wrote: butthurt detected
sick post brah
Good article Plexa, as always. Keep it up!
seriously boxer and savior and their peers are the most respected players on TL, the OP has some sort of weird persecution complex.
the real retardedness on TL comes from people thinking that boxer or savior or reach or someone could actually make a comeback and dominate again, just move on already.
Yeah, as if July would win an OSL lol, those n00bs.
On October 18 2009 14:35 jalstar wrote: butthurt detected
sick post brah
Good article Plexa, as always. Keep it up!
seriously boxer and savior and their peers are the most respected players on TL, the OP has some sort of weird persecution complex.
the real retardedness on TL comes from people thinking that boxer or savior or reach or someone could actually make a comeback and dominate again, just move on already.
No one actually thinks that. It is retarded to compare, for example, Joe Montana and Peyton Manning. Joe Montana could be considered the greatest QB ever even though technically Manning is much better.
Similarly, I consider NaDa to be a much greater terran than FlaSh.
Also make it a general rule not to come into well written threads and trivialize the amount of effort and love a writer puts into them with a statement like SOMEONES BUTTHURT. This isn't 4chan, we respect our contributors.
On October 18 2009 14:31 Musoeun wrote: Sweet article.
Is there an article coming out at some point about that map balance table thing? I'd love to see it explained (and also to see the title on the page capitalized properly so it fits in with the rest of the tlpd).
The map balance table is one of many hidden features in TLPD - I have no idea how it works other than it taking into consideration of the elo of the players involved. For instance, if Flash crushes some protoss noob on Katrina it doesn't mean the map is balanced TvP - especially if you have top terrans losing to crap protoss etc.
The only thing different about the bandwagon that followed Savior, and the ones of today, is that during Savior's time there really weren't any players good enough have a competing 'bandwagon' of their own. For a while I remember despising CJ fans even more than SKT fans (no small feat), and - like anyone at the time - I was well aware of how good Savior was.
It's really cruel that we bash these new fans for the same thing we were guilty of in the past (and still are today) - liking a player. It doesn't make you any more of a starcraft fan if you like Calm rather than Jaedong. It really doesn't.
If anything, I think TL is often stuck too far in the past. Obviously we're going to be more hyped when old pros play if we've been following the scene a long time (omg Midas plays this week!), but we're at the same time blind to the dominance of the players who are right before our eyes. There's a heavy level of bias preventing newer players from being mentioned in the same sentence as the old greats. Obviously long threads of Jaedong vs Bisu bonjwa discussion are more annoying than anything, but you can't tell me you didn't feel something akin to the old days when Jaedong came back from 0-2 in Batoo. You can't tell me you didn't think starcraft was still starcraft when he stopped fantasy's vulture, blind, with 2 lings and a drone.
The motions are still there, maybe we're just too busy thinking about the past to see them.
Guys i'm kinda new, dont post alot, not up to date on the latest ins and outs but, I will say whatever you f'ers are doing the mods have picked up activity alot. Don't matter your post count or legitimacy, mothers just get banned nowadays.
Flash fans don't get any flack for being on the bandwagon though I'm guessing it's because Flash hasn't been matched up against Bisu or Jaedong much lately and hence don't use the B word often.
On October 18 2009 15:44 jalstar wrote: The second part of the article was really good, the first part just read like it was meant to stir up controversy.
A mod pointing out that there have been massive amounts of shit posts over this subject?
On October 18 2009 15:56 Alur wrote: By the way Plexa, i thought you hated Anytime with a passion. Yet you compliment BackHo for his Anytime style of play.
Even the most cold hearted anti-fan must concede that that is incredibly sexy play
In fact, we feel that this is an opportune moment as any to introduce our new Ban on Bonjwa rule. By decree of the Men in Red, any mention of the newly outlawed word Bonjwa (variants included) will result in a 1 week, non revocable banishment from these shores. Repeat offenders will get a fully paid permanent vacation to Disneyland.
On October 18 2009 15:50 the PUNisher wrote: guys read, it clearly says:
"Sigh, we wish. But two nerds can dream, right?"
They won't ban you just for writing bonjwa.
Admins can do whatever they want. But the spirit of the law is to keep the stupid Bisu/Jaedong is Bonjwa arguments from ruining threads and to stop those dumb threads from being posted every time one of them wins a game. It's like the new Godwin's law for Starcraft =/
It seems so weird watching Backho undergo a transition from someone who was pure mechanics without thought for strategy to someone whose hands can't seem to keep up with what is churning through his head.
Wow, I was actually unable to read this. Is there any reason to be disdainful toward people you deem to be less knowledgeable than you about starcraft? Do they in any way harm the scene? Having stars who draw mass appeal is healthy for professional sports. Believing that your sports idol is superhuman isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's exciting. All that said, I didn't actually read the whole article, and therefore this post is pretty indefensible, but still; why write an article for which the intended audience will likely be in part the type of person who you are criticizing? I'm not that intent on having an unbiased view about which players are superior to others, and when I describe the starcraft scene to friends I intentionally exaggerate the dominance of the current players in order to create an aura of accomplishment and prestige associated with starcraft. I'm a casual fan of starcraft and I really couldn't care less whether or not you are an authority on the subject.
WOWZI, epic write-up! And this is going to be weekly? Damn, cant thank you guys enough - i love these kinds of articles that doesnt just write a bunch of statistics but really go in-depth. Looking forward to the next issue!
Oh, I thought I should add that having the "appropriate" degree of respect for old players is really just a way of proving that you've followed the scene from the beginning. Of course recently converted starcraft fans won't have a sense of the importance that players like boxer made to the esport. It's fun to read about the history of starcraft professional gaming and just how integral the fore-bearers were to its success. There may be no need to draw comparisons between jaedong and yellow, but the "disrespect" this pays to Yellow seems less rational a motivation for complaining about it than simply wanting to prove that you were there since the beginning - an absurdly arbitrary reason for feeling self-important.
Oh right, and elitism is a far bigger problem than "fanboyism" as far as TL is concerned. If you want to promote and legitimize esports outside of korea, then you may not want to drive away those who are potentially interested by deriding people who are ignorant of information concerning this incredibly niche interest - a hobby which has already been stigmatized as nerdy and irrelevant.
All that said, I do very much enjoy reading most editorials here, and do respect the tremendous amount that the TL editors, including the OP, do for the foreign scene. If it weren't for this website, we would still probably be in the dark ages. But don't be contemptuous of others. It does them no good, and it does you no good. Most of us are here because we think watching starcraft and posting on these boards is fun. When you adopt a vitriolic tone, you deter those who form the core of the fanbase, who provide the excitement, from watching and posting.
Despite my inablity to play the game Starcraft, I've always made posts about how Pro-Gamers dont get "worse"... the game just starts to pass them by at some point.
When sAviOr innovates, its only an innovation for a very short time. It's not long before people are practicing these mechanics (swarm casting or 2 hatch timings) and they become standard. Likewise, the defense to these builds and unit combos get devised and drilled into the next generation of players.
New players are always showing up with mechanics that blow our mind. It was JulyZerg I remember, then it was Bisu then Jaedong then Flash... now players like Baby still wow us with raw mechanical ability.
But TL will always hold a candle for the people that taught us all how to play Starcraft. BoxeR, sAviOr, Nal-ra, and YellOw. They made the game a spectator sport... the others just learn it.
reading this reminded me of how many good games we had right at the start of the season, hopefully they keep on coming. i don't know about the balance of PvZ, but how the hell did Movie lose to Calm after harassing so beautifully for like 10 minutes? that felt just plain wrong :< has this Maps' balance table been in TLPD for long? i've never seen it. excellent writeup once again, i feel like theres good articles coming almost everyday!
On October 18 2009 16:18 agen wrote: Oh, I thought I should add that having the "appropriate" degree of respect for old players is really just a way of proving that you've followed the scene from the beginning. Of course recently converted starcraft fans won't have a sense of the importance that players like boxer made to the esport. It's fun to read about the history of starcraft professional gaming and just how integral the fore-bearers were to its success. There may be no need to draw comparisons between jaedong and yellow, but the "disrespect" this pays to Yellow seems less rational a motivation for complaining about it than simply wanting to prove that you were there since the beginning - an absurdly arbitrary reason for feeling self-important.
"Seem" is the important term here. I think you might view it that way, because you would rather see the post in a negative light.
People new to SC, can easily develop an "appropriate degree of respect for old players". All that's needed is some time spent going through old articles and/or videos (especially moments of exciting, game turning micro). Naturally, a person might become inspired or awed by their techniques and executions.
I'm definitely one of those people - I found out about pro SC in 2005 and only learned about Savior in 2008. During a few years, I developed and kept some respect for old players, even though I found out many were being left behind by new players.
I disagree with your last point about "disrespect". I think there is no second, so-called real reason why Plexa argued against comparing old and new players. Only the simple fact that the difference in knowledge, between players of past (as far back as 8-9 years) and present, is too great. The great players of every era, make the best use of what they know at the time.
An example is Olympic swimming - new athletes set new records, due to more efficient training and swim suits. But the achievements of previous record holders (and multi-gold medalists), like Ian Thorpe should not deserve less importance or be seen as inferior. This is because certain individuals were truly awesome and dominant during the hight of their success, and their achievements deserve acknowledgement from viewers.
On October 18 2009 16:18 agen wrote: Oh, I thought I should add that having the "appropriate" degree of respect for old players is really just a way of proving that you've followed the scene from the beginning. Of course recently converted starcraft fans won't have a sense of the importance that players like boxer made to the esport. It's fun to read about the history of starcraft professional gaming and just how integral the fore-bearers were to its success. There may be no need to draw comparisons between jaedong and yellow, but the "disrespect" this pays to Yellow seems less rational a motivation for complaining about it than simply wanting to prove that you were there since the beginning - an absurdly arbitrary reason for feeling self-important.
"Seem" is the important term here. I think you might view it that way, because you would rather see the post in a negative light.
People new to SC, can easily develop an "appropriate degree of respect for old players". All that's needed is some time spent going through old articles and/or videos (especially moments of exciting, game turning micro). Naturally, a person might become inspired or awed by their techniques and executions.
I'm definitely one of those people - I found out about pro SC in 2005 and only learned about Savior in 2008. During a few years, I developed and kept some respect for old players, even though I found out many were being left behind by new players.
I disagree with your last point about "disrespect". I think there is no second, so-called real reason why Plexa argued against comparing old and new players. Only the simple fact that the difference in knowledge, between players of past (as far back as 8-9 years) and present, is too great. The great players of every era, make the best use of what they know at the time.
An example is Olympic swimming - new athletes set new records, due to more efficient training and swim suits. But the achievements of previous record holders (and multi-gold medalists), like Ian Thorpe should not deserve less importance or be seen as inferior. This is because certain individuals were truly awesome and dominant during the hight of their success, and their achievements deserve acknowledgement from viewers.
Alright, I think that's fair, I took offense to what I thought sounded like belittlement. I didn't mean to make a comment about whether or not new or old players were better. I just intended to say that I thought criticizing people who post hyberbolically about how great the player is they support was unnecessary.
To use my own sports analogy:
Have you ever been to a sports bar to watch a soccer game? Do you try and tell the fans that they're biased, that they shouldn't think so highly of their team, and that their zealous support offends the predecessors who made greater contributions to the sport? Are they wrong to be blindly biased in their allegiance? I don't think it matters. The reason soccer is so universally popular is because of the fans who are passionate about the teams and players they support. They enjoy it within the context they understand it, and that is what is more important than the legacy or history of soccer.
If you want to preserve the legacy of starcraft and cast an objective light upon the players in the scene, then I would certainly encourage you to do so. Cataloguing and preserving starcraft history seems to me to be an essential function of this website. However, I don't think it's necessary to criticize others when they seem less keen on being unbiased, or even knowledgeable. Passionate support fuels interest in starcraft. I mean, look at the word "fan". Its origins belong to the word "fanatic". Fanatics are not rational, they are fanatical. The majority of sports fans, and esports fans, do not possess an archival knowledge of their sports. My point is that it's not necessary to be condescending towards others, especially since bandwagons feed excitement. Tiger Woods restored the public's interest in golf. Golf announcers, commentators, and especially us laymen, were saying that he might be, or was, better than Jack Nicholson far earlier on in his career than was justifiable, and that's why interest in golf was resuscitated. It happens any time a player shows signs of greatness; we wonder if they might be the greatest, and even declare them as such. It's a good thing, and even if it weren't, there's no need to be offensive. Have you ever read a magazine editorial which said, "Yea, nobody cares, noob."? Most starcraft followers, including myself, are noobs. If you want to promote starcraft, there's no need to criticize the fanbase.
nice article; this is a good way to start a weekly column
hopefully it will get better, and then draw a significant and steady number of readers and responders in the future it might be able to expand into other things, and become something more
I might have to start a Plexa vs Riptide Bonjwa Writer thread
I really like the idea of weekly highlights of the BW scene. And I totally support the idea of "educating" the newest members, just as I support the increased use of warnings/bans (seriously, who doesn't hate the "XvY IMBA!" "X for BONJWA!" "STREAAAAM PLSSSSSS!" "ME WANT VODS!!!" posts that are flourishing everywhere?). TL's content is getting so vast new members may just not know where to start to get better knowledge of the game. That kind of article, by addressing a few current issues and linking to a few related posts, is a great opportunity to start digging in the past.
On a side note, as an Anytime fan, I am happy his heritage is finally in the spotlight!
I hope people realise that this sis written by both me and riptide - not just me I could give you a breakdown about what we each wrote about but i tihnk its pretty clear from the style change
The write up begins like one of the Garry Kasparov's articles for Financial Times , but somewhere towards the middle the style suddenly changes to an elitist fanboy post. Then I saw the disclaimer and it all made sense.
I hope Plexa and Riptide keep working together, this was a very enjoyable read. As much as I oppose the Plexa's take on objective journalism, I always love the quality of his posting
Thanks. great article. Look forward to reading more in the future.
Am I the only one that cringes when I see phrases like 'raped from wall to wall' being applied to starcraft? For what it's worth, I'd prefer not to read such phrases. That being said, I recognize the emphasis it gives when referring to a one-sided victory, and I still greatly appreciate the effort put into the above article. So most of all, just thanks.
Is there a way to access the Map Balance section through the TLPD? I can't seem to find it, and the only way to getting it would be typing in the link in the URL.
On October 18 2009 19:17 Plexa wrote: I hope people realise that this sis written by both me and riptide - not just me I could give you a breakdown about what we each wrote about but i tihnk its pretty clear from the style change
Actually, maybe it is better if you guys make who wrote what clear.
1. awesome variety in content. something for everyone
2. i have to admit i am one of those nubs who only like bisu/jaedong (well, not quite, but i know very little about each progamer besides familiarity with the name). this gave me some insight into what kind of player calm is or lomo is, besides just "oh i've heard of that guy before".
Plexa, I typically admire your work. With that said...
The first part of this article seemed incredibly unnecessary. Some guy starts a thread about something he knows nothing about regarding TL, and it inspires you to rant about the "cardinal sin" of disrespecting the old progamers? Was it worth it?
Look, we know Boxer, Savior, etc., are wonderful. We know because the staff takes every single opportunity to shout it from the mountaintops. Like this article, for example. It's a "weekly eSports article," but here we are, talking about about how great Boxer and Savior were... again.
There's great Starcraft happening now, and if someone doesn't care what Boxer or Savior did for the game, who cares? Let it go. Anyone with a third of a brain knows you don't compare eras, anyway. I can't believe you let it bother you this much.
Your article got nicer when you started talking about SC and not how cool you are. Really though, what's this about? What will this cover? Just a general overview of the world of ESPORTS? Ranting and whining? A distraction from the league-specific coverage that you write? An Artosis starcraft weekly roundup knockoff? I'm just a little confused.
On October 18 2009 15:34 QibingZero wrote: The only thing different about the bandwagon that followed Savior, and the ones of today, is that during Savior's time there really weren't any players good enough have a competing 'bandwagon' of their own. For a while I remember despising CJ fans even more than SKT fans (no small feat), and - like anyone at the time - I was well aware of how good Savior was.
It's really cruel that we bash these new fans for the same thing we were guilty of in the past (and still are today) - liking a player. It doesn't make you any more of a starcraft fan if you like Calm rather than Jaedong. It really doesn't.
If anything, I think TL is often stuck too far in the past. Obviously we're going to be more hyped when old pros play if we've been following the scene a long time (omg Midas plays this week!), but we're at the same time blind to the dominance of the players who are right before our eyes. There's a heavy level of bias preventing newer players from being mentioned in the same sentence as the old greats. Obviously long threads of Jaedong vs Bisu bonjwa discussion are more annoying than anything, but you can't tell me you didn't feel something akin to the old days when Jaedong came back from 0-2 in Batoo. You can't tell me you didn't think starcraft was still starcraft when he stopped fantasy's vulture, blind, with 2 lings and a drone.
The motions are still there, maybe we're just too busy thinking about the past to see them.
On October 18 2009 15:56 Alur wrote: By the way Plexa, i thought you hated Anytime with a passion. Yet you compliment BackHo for his Anytime style of play.
[Vod Removed] Even the most cold hearted anti-fan must concede that that is incredibly sexy play
You sure are proving the older players are leagues apart, that's for sure. Backho's game was way cooler.
it's the savior/oov/etc fanboy's turn to bash the new wave of fans, the jaedong/bisu/flash fans, just like they were probably bashed when their favorites were new and at the top of their game. And in 2012, those fans of Jaedong/Bisu/Flash (and some will probably be staffed) will bash the newer fans, and exclaim that TL is NOT about these idiots, it's about the old school KIMTAEKLEESSANG fans in addition to Boxer, yellow, etc..
I must say (and I must say it in my first post here on Team Liquid), that I absolutely loved this article. Once the first section was over, mind you. Regardless of whether or not you think the likes of Bisu/Jaedong/whatever are getting too much praise over the forerunners of modern competitive Starcraft, the fact is that writing in the way seen in the first part this article is highly unprofessional. It begs me to ask the question, "What is the point"? While the second half was well written and enjoyable, the first half came off as whining, and really held no relevance toward the piece as a whole.
Take that as you will, but a front page article, in my humble opinion, needs to be a bit more professional than what the first half presented, whether you agree with its content or not.
interesting article, as much as i am a fan of oz team the potential in new players on kt is much greater kt- stats , violet , luxury (we're not talking about new or old players but rather the potential a team may acheive) firefist and hoejja in comparison to oz- perfectman killer hiya (who is coming back to himself) and backho clearly without mentioning the ace players of both teams i think in potential and in depth kt will rock this season .
The first part of this article was borderline trolling, implying that everyone who is a fan of Bisu, Jaedong, or Flash is a 'bandwagon fan' with no respect for how inarguably superior the old greats are to them. It's very belittling to the players themselves.
Bisu and Flash are both revolutionists (Bisu PvZ, Flash TvP) when it comes to how all players of their race play, Jaedong proved that ZvZ wasn't rock-paper-scissors, among other things. Innovations still happen even in this studied-to-death era of Starcraft.
Now, I agree the B-word can't be used for any of them right now. But, from this article, it sounds to me like even if Jaedong suddenly shot a league above Bisu and Flash in skill and went on a 100% win-game streak and won every gold medal available until Starcraft 2 comes out, you would still refuse to acknowledge him, because only neckbeards who have been following the SC pro-scene for 5 years or more are allowed to have opinions.
I agree that comparing them to the old titans is useless, but there's no reason a player from this generation can't become a hero in retrospect a few years down the line. It seems to me that a couple years ago, you'd be writing this article about savior, saying that anyone calling him a Bonjwa is a deluded fanboy and he'll never have respect like Boxer.
I give it an 8/10 for trying to hide the trolling in the name of stopping flame wars, but it's a little too obvious.
On October 19 2009 04:57 Kennigit wrote: Can we also ban the use of "TL" TL does this, TL does that.....TL is tens of thousands of users....how can you possible say "TL is stuck in the past"?
The same way in that Plexa/hotbid so boldly state:
On October 18 2009 14:13 Plexa wrote: Team Liquid is not the bazillions of Bisu-Jaedong-Flash bandwaggoning fans you see everyday in Live Report threads (or, as it turns out, everywhere the B word is used). No, Team Liquid, and its outlook on progaming is summed up best in the Final Edits, the site's elitist opinion columns, an arena that is home to articles like Only Until Midnight, Slivers of Perfection and The Storm Zerg. These are what represent TL and its views on progaming, not the combined jibbering of a few thousand crazed fanboys.
If "TL" isn't the tens of thousands of "crazed fanboys", but the people who disdain them, then I think it's pretty accurate to say that "TL" is stuck in the past. Personally, I'd have been glad for this conversation - and it's sweeping generalizations - to never have happened in the first place. My reply was mostly surprise at the condescending attitude shown toward starcraft fans in a front page article...
On October 19 2009 04:57 Kennigit wrote: Can we also ban the use of "TL" TL does this, TL does that.....TL is tens of thousands of users....how can you possible say "TL is stuck in the past"?
The same way in that Plexa/hotbid so boldly state:
On October 18 2009 14:13 Plexa wrote: Team Liquid is not the bazillions of Bisu-Jaedong-Flash bandwaggoning fans you see everyday in Live Report threads (or, as it turns out, everywhere the B word is used). No, Team Liquid, and its outlook on progaming is summed up best in the Final Edits, the site's elitist opinion columns, an arena that is home to articles like Only Until Midnight, Slivers of Perfection and The Storm Zerg. These are what represent TL and its views on progaming, not the combined jibbering of a few thousand crazed fanboys.
If "TL" isn't the tens of thousands of "crazed fanboys", but the people who disdain them, then I think it's pretty accurate to say that "TL" is stuck in the past. Personally, I'd have been glad for this conversation - and it's sweeping generalizations - to never have happened in the first place. My reply was mostly surprise at the condescending attitude shown toward starcraft fans in a front page article...
I agree, I love TL and this kind of stuff should not be on the front page.
On October 18 2009 14:13 Plexa wrote: As I (Plexa) maintain, for once Backho didn't look confused or pathetic (or cheesy) and instead looked incredibly sexy as he smashed Calm from wall to wall with impressive Dark Templar play. I know Artosis hates DTs, but surely he has to give Backho credit for pulling it off.
In fact, the whole Backho vs Calm series is pretty non-standard and really interesting and entertaining. Backho is starting to emerge as an intelligent player (never thought I'd have to say that)
I thought game 1 was vintage backho: more stubborn than intelligent. The fact that he managed to sneak a DT in at last and actually win the game was awesome of course, but Backho's games have always been entertaining.
I can't believe people get so bent out of shape from an article with a little slant on it. Don't you people read ESPN or any sports journalism? Relax yo.
Can we use the B-word in reference to people who have already, in the past, been established as worthy of the B-word (like Boxer, Nada, Oov, Savior) or is this ban, "Don't mention it in any context, period." Can someone enlighten me?
Edit: I skimmed the article and comments and saw no clarification on this point. Although I did see people using the B-word.
On October 19 2009 10:35 Mortality wrote: Can we use the B-word in reference to people who have already, in the past, been established as worthy of the B-word (like Boxer, Nada, Oov, Savior) or is this ban, "Don't mention it in any context, period." Can someone enlighten me?
Edit: I skimmed the article and comments and saw no clarification on this point. Although I did see people using the B-word.
I like the "it's just opinions!" backpedaling. Let's see how many of these quotes would be in a newspaper (with different subject material obviously)
Of course, a majority of those views are crap.
We don't claim to be an authority on SC. We are one.
See, noobs are like most pre teens - they're always angsty, seldom capable of original thought and will constantly express the desire to copulate furiously with whatever bandwagon is passing their bedroom window.
Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras
Finally, an appropriate, if ironic one:
Opinions are opinions, and everyone is entitled to them, even idiots.
On October 19 2009 10:11 Manifesto7 wrote: I can't believe people get so bent out of shape from an article with a little slant on it. Don't you people read ESPN or any sports journalism? Relax yo.
hahahahahaha
you think that the people who write articles for ESPN go into their comment threads (which are far worse than TL's) and call the people who disagree with them idiots?
There is discussion of contradicting opinions on these forums everyday, this is true and it's what forums are all about.
I just expect the immature ones to be buried away some where in a matter of minutes, as opposed to being on the front page of a website as awesome as TL.
On October 19 2009 10:11 Manifesto7 wrote: I can't believe people get so bent out of shape from an article with a little slant on it. Don't you people read ESPN or any sports journalism? Relax yo.
hahahahahaha
you think that the people who write articles for ESPN go into their comment threads (which are far worse than TL's) and call the people who disagree with them idiots?
even ESPN is not that classless.
they write for money not for the pleasure, here you get the love for the work and the slaping from redman, so enjoy it. Feel the heartbeat
I don't see anything wrong with this article. The first time I read it it was just like an opinionated article but there was nothing that really bugged me about it.
People comparing mechanics from different eras are tools. However liking Bisu/Jaedong/Flash because they are dominant right now there's absolutely nothing wrong with that and nowhere in the article it says it is. Read it again if you feel offended because you like those guys because they might not be talking about you at all. Sports have a lot of shallow fans attracted to current winners. They also have a lot of non-shallow fans attracted to current winners.
jalstar you could find quotes that aren't appropriate for newspapers concerning every single article that gets written on TL. It's because we word things differently from newspapers to appeal to (fellow) SC-nerds. The opinions themselves are no stronger than common stuff you find in newspapers and magazines.
On October 19 2009 10:35 Mortality wrote: Can we use the B-word in reference to people who have already, in the past, been established as worthy of the B-word (like Boxer, Nada, Oov, Savior) or is this ban, "Don't mention it in any context, period." Can someone enlighten me?
Edit: I skimmed the article and comments and saw no clarification on this point. Although I did see people using the B-word.
Just ignore the article, honestly
Why have you posted 4 times in the thread? I thought you didn't like the article?
bad article for a newspost, should have been a blog or smth. displaying an elitist attitude and offending a large fraction of TLs userbase doesnt seem like a smart thing to do imo. For me, TL is a community of all members of the site and not the views of a few mods who really think they are "authorities" on progaming who cant even hit B on iccup.
It's nice to see Backho do well for a change. I've allways believed him to be one of the best protosses outside of the dragons in terms of pure mechanical skill and multitasking. He also seems capable of brilliant paly at times. Much like Hyuk he has extremely good potential but has failed to deliver due to stupid in game decisions. I would even go as far as saying that their only real weakness has been tactics, not even strategy or builds. They have just managed to fuck up games they should have won. And obviously that's a great position to be in as a progamer as tactics are easy to improve while mechanics and creativity are harder.
I don't see the article as attacking Jaedong/Bisu/Flash fans.. I see it as attacking *new* fans (which if I remember right, is teamliquid's biggest demographic?). 'bazillions of bandwagoning fans in LR threads'... yes, mindless idiots, aren't they? Because what, you better have been around several years to be a jaedong fan without being a sheep?
Feels like a false sense of superiority coming out of being one of the 'bazillions of bandwagonning fans' from a past generation. Or did the superior writer, when he was a new fan of starcraft, choose to not be a fan of then current greats because that was cool and non-mainstream?
I don't believe teamliquid has to be 'professional' or anything. I think it's good to have the staff be other fans and say what they want.. so go for it, but I find this distasteful so I'm saying what I want to as well.
To be clear, yes, sports do attract lots of idiot fans.. have no issues with the part about comparing players of different ages as being retarded. Have issues with the backlash at new fans immediately following that, lumping them together with the idiot fans.
If you think that you're mis-reading the OP. Nowhere does it say this. The biggest misunderstanding stems from the fact that you read "noobs like the players Bisu/Jaedong/Flash" as "people who like Bisu/Jaedong/Flash are noobs". It's not close to the same thing at all. The first part is what they said, and is also completely true. The second would not be.
It also says that the author of this thread shouldn't be so upset because every sport has new fans who mindlessly support the winning players without too much knowledge about the history of the sport, which is an accurate statement to make.
The vent, which clearly says it's a vent is directed at people who compare mechanics from the past with players on top today.
Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
The beginning of the article was utter trash. You think you are some sort of SC superstars, and being condenscending and calling people noobs is just retarded. Seriously, that was just some BS. I have no idea how you failed to mention Nada either, especially when talking about mechanics and for some reason including Nal_Ra. While he hasn't got bad mechanics, Nada's are way better. So who's the noob?
Being arrogant and elitistic is a dangerous thing, because when you slip and notice that you are NOT more intelligent than everyone else, people will eat you up. While you, Plexa, are a great writer, you are quite the SC noob still. You found SC what, 2 years ago? Please don't treat people who have been with the game for 8 years like retards, that just makes you look like a true moron.
Anyways, the later portion of the article was good as usual, but ease up on the egos.
On October 20 2009 01:36 Foucault wrote: The beginning of the article was utter trash. You think you are some sort of SC superstars, and being condenscending and calling people noobs is just retarded. Seriously, that was just some BS. I have no idea how you failed to mention Nada either, especially when talking about mechanics and for some reason including Nal_Ra. While he hasn't got bad mechanics, Nada's are way better. So who's the noob?
Being arrogant and elitistic is a dangerous thing, because when you slip and notice that you are NOT more intelligent than everyone else, people will eat you up. While you, Plexa, are a great writer, you are quite the SC noob still. You found SC what, 2 years ago? Please don't treat people who have been with the game for 8 years like retards, that just makes you look like a true moron.
Anyways, the later portion of the article was good as usual, but ease up on the egos.
You are one dense individual if you actually read the beginning of the article and you still believe in what you just posted.
Go back and read it again, and check out Nazgul's post, posted above ^.
I don't even know how you could interpret the OP as saying what you think it said. English comprehension isn't that difficult yo...
EDIT: OH GOD, I only read the first paragraph of your post and thought you were an idiot but THEN I read the rest of it. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that your parents dropped you and you hit your head on something very hard.
I started following pro scene late 2008, and im obsessed with ma jae yoon.. sure i like effort, but I dont spend hours a day watching effort tributes over and over again.
On October 20 2009 01:36 Foucault wrote: The beginning of the article was utter trash. You think you are some sort of SC superstars, and being condenscending and calling people noobs is just retarded. Seriously, that was just some BS. I have no idea how you failed to mention Nada either, especially when talking about mechanics and for some reason including Nal_Ra. While he hasn't got bad mechanics, Nada's are way better. So who's the noob?
Being arrogant and elitistic is a dangerous thing, because when you slip and notice that you are NOT more intelligent than everyone else, people will eat you up. While you, Plexa, are a great writer, you are quite the SC noob still. You found SC what, 2 years ago? Please don't treat people who have been with the game for 8 years like retards, that just makes you look like a true moron.
Anyways, the later portion of the article was good as usual, but ease up on the egos.
You are one dense individual if you actually read the beginning of the article and you still believe in what you just posted.
Go back and read it again, and check out Nazgul's post, posted above ^.
I don't even know how you could interpret the OP as saying what you think it said. English comprehension isn't that difficult yo...
EDIT: OH GOD, I only read the first paragraph of your post and thought you were an idiot but THEN I read the rest of it. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that your parents dropped you and you hit your head on something very hard.
I wonder how many points this post earns you, fanboy.
On October 19 2009 23:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: If you think that you're mis-reading the OP. Nowhere does it say this. The biggest misunderstanding stems from the fact that you read "noobs like the players Bisu/Jaedong/Flash" as "people who like Bisu/Jaedong/Flash are noobs". It's not close to the same thing at all. The first part is what they said, and is also completely true. The second would not be.
It also says that the author of this thread shouldn't be so upset because every sport has new fans who mindlessly support the winning players without too much knowledge about the history of the sport, which is an accurate statement to make.
The vent, which clearly says it's a vent is directed at people who compare mechanics from the past with players on top today.
Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
The misunderstanding here is about what you think I'm reading.. I have no issue with the quote you posted.
Let me point out the sections..
See, noobs are like most pre teens - they're always angsty, seldom capable of original thought and will constantly express the desire to copulate furiously with whatever bandwagon is passing their bedroom window. Two years ago it was Bisu, now it's Jaedong, tomorrow it could be Backho or Lomo. The point is, it shouldn't bother you. Every sport has shallow fans who are attracted to current winners - they're an occupational hazard and you have to learn to deal with them.
Having said that, it's time to now chide the OP for saying that Team Liquid doesn't respect old gamers. Are you kidding us, sir? Team Liquid is not the bazillions of Bisu-Jaedong-Flash bandwaggoning fans you see everyday in Live Report threads (or, as it turns out, everywhere the B word is used)
.
Put these two quotes together. Teamliquid has bazillions of bandwagonning fans, you see them every day in live report threads! They are angsty, seldom capable of original thought, and love the latest greatest players. They are shallow and a hazard.
Now, tell me this, how many people posting in live report threads do you think are people who are comparing the mechanics of Boxer to Flash? Not so many.. this is very clearly lumping a whole lot of people together with genuine idiots (the people who compare boxer's mechanics to flash's). And how is the author lumping them together? Most likely, because they are new fans, who like the current greats. Post count < x && fan of Jaedong/Bisu/Flash = look at the shallow bandwagonning retard!
No, Team Liquid, and its outlook on progaming is summed up best in the Final Edits, the site's elitist opinion columns, an arena that is home to articles like Only Until Midnight, Slivers of Perfection and The Storm Zerg. These are what represent TL and its views on progaming, not the combined jibbering of a few thousand crazed fanboys.
Disassociating TL with it's user base. We are the few, the proud, the elite! Look at our repository of articles about progamers of yesteryear. I love them too , but what is this crap?
I'm not reading something that isn't in the article. Spare me any less-than-witty remarks about english comprehension. This is like that 'critical thinking' section after the text. I don't really care if everyone other than the authors says that they didn't mean that. I don't really care if they themselves say it either.
On October 20 2009 01:36 Foucault wrote: The beginning of the article was utter trash. You think you are some sort of SC superstars, and being condenscending and calling people noobs is just retarded. Seriously, that was just some BS. I have no idea how you failed to mention Nada either, especially when talking about mechanics and for some reason including Nal_Ra. While he hasn't got bad mechanics, Nada's are way better. So who's the noob?
Being arrogant and elitistic is a dangerous thing, because when you slip and notice that you are NOT more intelligent than everyone else, people will eat you up. While you, Plexa, are a great writer, you are quite the SC noob still. You found SC what, 2 years ago? Please don't treat people who have been with the game for 8 years like retards, that just makes you look like a true moron.
Anyways, the later portion of the article was good as usual, but ease up on the egos.
You are one dense individual if you actually read the beginning of the article and you still believe in what you just posted.
Go back and read it again, and check out Nazgul's post, posted above ^.
I don't even know how you could interpret the OP as saying what you think it said. English comprehension isn't that difficult yo...
EDIT: OH GOD, I only read the first paragraph of your post and thought you were an idiot but THEN I read the rest of it. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that your parents dropped you and you hit your head on something very hard.
I wonder how many points this post earns you, fanboy.
Thank you for considering my points and admitting defeat by not offering any rebuttal.
This is a fantastic article. I used to be a Bisu fanboy, but since I've gotten deeper and deeper into the scene, I don't really have a favorite player. I like KT a lot because I think that they are a very well-balanced team, with a Strong Terran (Flash), a strong Zerg (Luxury) and a strong Protoss (Violet). Although I think that disregarding someone's opinion due to the fact that their favorite player is very popular amongst others is a pretty elitist thing to do.
Good luck to Pusan. Never heard of him, but that's beast and I love new faces. In addition I'm never on the bandwagon: i'm just way behind it. Anybody old school is who I root for, although I have no doubt newer players are more skilled.
On October 20 2009 12:29 Froadac wrote: Good luck to Pusan. Never heard of him, but that's beast and I love new faces. In addition I'm never on the bandwagon: i'm just way behind it. Anybody old school is who I root for, although I have no doubt newer players are more skilled.
On October 19 2009 23:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: If you think that you're mis-reading the OP. Nowhere does it say this. The biggest misunderstanding stems from the fact that you read "noobs like the players Bisu/Jaedong/Flash" as "people who like Bisu/Jaedong/Flash are noobs". It's not close to the same thing at all. The first part is what they said, and is also completely true. The second would not be.
It also says that the author of this thread shouldn't be so upset because every sport has new fans who mindlessly support the winning players without too much knowledge about the history of the sport, which is an accurate statement to make.
The vent, which clearly says it's a vent is directed at people who compare mechanics from the past with players on top today.
Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
The misunderstanding here is about what you think I'm reading.. I have no issue with the quote you posted.
See, noobs are like most pre teens - they're always angsty, seldom capable of original thought and will constantly express the desire to copulate furiously with whatever bandwagon is passing their bedroom window. Two years ago it was Bisu, now it's Jaedong, tomorrow it could be Backho or Lomo. The point is, it shouldn't bother you. Every sport has shallow fans who are attracted to current winners - they're an occupational hazard and you have to learn to deal with them.
Having said that, it's time to now chide the OP for saying that Team Liquid doesn't respect old gamers. Are you kidding us, sir? Team Liquid is not the bazillions of Bisu-Jaedong-Flash bandwaggoning fans you see everyday in Live Report threads (or, as it turns out, everywhere the B word is used)
.
Put these two quotes together. Teamliquid has bazillions of bandwagonning fans, you see them every day in live report threads! They are angsty, seldom capable of original thought, and love the latest greatest players. They are shallow and a hazard.
Now, tell me this, how many people posting in live report threads do you think are people who are comparing the mechanics of Boxer to Flash? Not so many.. this is very clearly lumping a whole lot of people together with genuine idiots (the people who compare boxer's mechanics to flash's). And how is the author lumping them together? Most likely, because they are new fans, who like the current greats. Post count < x && fan of Jaedong/Bisu/Flash = look at the shallow bandwagonning retard!
No, Team Liquid, and its outlook on progaming is summed up best in the Final Edits, the site's elitist opinion columns, an arena that is home to articles like Only Until Midnight, Slivers of Perfection and The Storm Zerg. These are what represent TL and its views on progaming, not the combined jibbering of a few thousand crazed fanboys.
Disassociating TL with it's user base. We are the few, the proud, the elite! Look at our repository of articles about progamers of yesteryear. I love them too , but what is this crap?
I'm not reading something that isn't in the article. Spare me any less-than-witty remarks about english comprehension. This is like that 'critical thinking' section after the text. I don't really care if everyone other than the authors says that they didn't mean that. I don't really care if they themselves say it either.
yep nazgul, I understand the need for mods to help out one another, but if you really dont see the elitist dick attitude shown in the paragraphs quoted by errol and generally in the whole op your really overdoing it. Every dutch person is good enough in English to get that much out of the post and if it wasn't posted by a mod you wouldn't defend it like you do, everybody with half a brain, english comprehension and some experience with TL mods sees through that.
good article, with plexa's writing shining through as always. Love the old players, love the games that they play, but recognize how much they've fallen in terms of how they compare to the current stock of players.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/NewsImage.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/riptide/heritage/shl_finals_saviornalra.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Backseat_Broodwar/backho.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Backseat_Broodwar/jaehoon.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Backseat_Broodwar/Ha1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Backseat_Broodwar/rolster.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Backseat_Broodwar/nal_ra.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Backseat_Broodwar/mbcbefore.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Backseat_Broodwar/mbcafter.jpg)
I could give you a breakdown about what we each wrote about but i tihnk its pretty clear from the style change 
![[image loading]](http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk5/neverggg/heritage/05-1.jpg)
