EPTBoth of them will claim to be NKVD agents undercover, and it's damn near possible both really are - what are you going to do? Think the entire scenario out or just read my last post. Seriously you guys are starting to remind me of the town when Qatol was Mayor.
[GG] Red Army Mafia - Page 2
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Both of them will claim to be NKVD agents undercover, and it's damn near possible both really are - what are you going to do? Think the entire scenario out or just read my last post. Seriously you guys are starting to remind me of the town when Qatol was Mayor. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 05:07 coltrane wrote: Ace, really you dont make any single good point at this. If there are 9 rebels and 6 agents one of them being RC tonight and death tomorrow is MUCH posible. We act on behavioral things mostly, mafia doesnt, they will start sweeping first and will kill anyone who they find that is not on their team. If they are not confident of one of their own then they have to use another night checking. To RC is not a good way of checking, cause NKVD will still appear Ukranian, even after his dts are gone. The best way could be setting up a killing, and that may require 2 nights instead of one. So by claming to be ukranians they win at least 1 night, sometimes 2 and could be more. Under this conditions i would suggest ANYONE who could appear to be ukranian to do so, and i would say NKVD shouldnt be on the office. Given the rule set we have the chance to screw their ability to propper rolecheck, wtf lets do it. And yes, wont be easy, but our DT would have for sure at least 1 confirmed townie where to deliver his info. The thing is he doesnt need to get into. If they think he could me ukranian he will still have an extra night and even when he is rolechecked and dont get info about it is even more the info that ukranians lose. no | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
This is why you won't be elected. You can't even think through the most basic of scenarios. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
But if all of them are undercover and an NKVD agent checks another NKVD agent the guy flips Rebel. So now we are about to lynch 2 NKVD Agents. Of course the same exact thing happens if an NKVD Agent RCs a Rebel. Of course it's even worse this time because the NKVD Agent will be killed immediately assuming the Ukrainians aren't stupid. They don't have to RC him right away - just ask him who he killed previously and who he will kill the next night. In both situations the NKVD agent loses or everyone has an option to lie that takes even more time to disprove. No one has yet to answer how you sort through the liars because there is the case that both people are telling the truth, both are innocent but since both of them went undercover they both appear guilty. Ukrainians win. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 05:37 L wrote: \ As for Ace's last post: you've essentially summed up why our DTs are going to want to play rebel (ALL OF THEM). If we can make it very hard for mafia to team up, we force mafia self-killing. Any NKVD agent that gets into a ring gains a huge amount of information, and our risk/reward goes from 1 NKVD:1Ukranian to 1NKVD:1Ring. The slower mafia play, and the more information they gather, the more we would want our DTs rolling rebel. The only possible shit-scenario would be NKVD finding each other, but that's where people need to bust out their behavioral analysis hats and get to work. come on L, let's be serious here. In fact assume I'm a Ukrainian Rebel and you're an NKVD agent. do you REALLY think you'd ever successfully convince me you really are a Rebel and that you could get me to give up information about what I know and then get me lynched? The plan only works assuming our enemies are completely fucking stupid. I'm not playing the game based on that because it's an epic fail. Watch the NKVD agents all try it and all die. I guarantee it if the Rebels are even half competent. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 05:39 Scamp wrote: Well that situation of the two NKVD agents targeting each other would be unfortunate but unlikely. Besides, the point isn't to take out one Ukranian. The point is to infiltrate a group in order to take out a bunch of them. I don't think I'd want to start hitting people if I were in a Ukranian group of two or three, so getting "confirmed" by killing someone wouldn't be a problem until later. Impossible to call. No idea how the NKVD agents individually select who they want to Role Check. you can't get IN the group - that's the problem. Once again think of it basically like this: Ace - NKVD Agent Scamp - Ukrainian Rebel Ace - o hai scamp, I checked you out. You're Rebel, so am I! <3 Scamp - o ok. cool. This is L and coltrane, their rebels too. Sup? Ace - lol newbs I'm an Agent. GG. Do you really think you'd do that? or is it more like this: Ace -o hai scamp, I checked you out. You're Rebel, so am I! <3 Scamp - that's nice hoe. Who did you kill last night? Ace - oh I killed...um...Foolishness. (I have no idea who really did so I'm guessing) Scamp(who knows the truth because he knows who killed Foolishness) - o ok. Well I can't trust you yet so who are you going to kill tomorrow night? Ace - um...I'll kill LucasWoj! Scamp - ok well when Lucas shows up dead I'll let you know! 2 problems already fucks the Agent over: I die immediately because Scamp knows the truth and kills me. I survive till the next day but Lucas doesn't die unless I get super lucky. If he doesn't I'm killed. The best I could do is roleclaim to the town that I'm an NKVD agent and found Scamp. Scamp of course says he's also an NKVD Agent and was undercover also. How do you sort through the liars? Even worse - what if Scamp really is an NKVD agent. Come on, I know what I'm talking about here. You guys are assuming the Rebels are so dumb as not to ask 2 simple questions which would destroy any NKVD agent without a lot of information ahead of time. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 05:56 L wrote: There won't be networks if all the NKVD are posing as rebels. That's the entire point. By the time ukranians can successfully check themselves, we'll be on day 3 and their time limit will be blowing by. Similarly, Ace's theory that a Ukranian can ask for prior kill and future kill is substantially harmed by the fact that the prior kill doesn't exist due to the fact that the "Rebel" used a check the night before, and that a medic can catch the following hit. If any of that 'luck' happens, we have 2 ukranians who essentially kill themselves for us. BANG! Got ya. And if the "Rebel" used a check the Night before why would the real Rebel even entertain the thought of talking to him since he can't be confirmed? ^_^ See, I'm always right. Just accept it. | ||
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Ace
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Ace
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On July 30 2009 06:01 Falcynn wrote: Yeah, since I'm not sure if I was clear enough, I'm going to try to detail this better. NKVD should disguise themselves as Ukrainians This is good because it'll force the Ukrainians to be more careful about who they trust, stalling any form of organization between them for at least a few days. The only drawback to this is if an NKVD targets another NKVD, which is fairly unlikely, but if it does happen it shouldn't be too disastrous because... NKVD should not try to infiltrate the network This is a waste of time, because the Ukrainians have enough methods at their disposal to verify Ukrainians within a day. If an NKVD agent comes out to a Ukrainian, then they have roughly 1 day left to live. If they're that suicidal, they may as well just open up to the town and pray for medic protection. They should simply disguise as Ukrainian, then continue playing as if this was any other mafia game by subtly trying to sway the towns opinion with what they find out rather than trying to come out in the open. Imo NKVD Agents should disguise themselves as Towny and then play as a normal DT would. No need to expose themselves - just build a case against Rebels and smash them when the time is right. Everyone wants to be hero and ends up just another dead body when they try some clever plan with a big gaping hole in it :/ The town already has an insane advantage - why piss it away with risky moves. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 06:11 L wrote: EXACTLY. SO NOW REAL REBELS CANT ORGANIZE UNTIL DAY 3-4, POSSIBLY LATER IF THEY CHECK NON-REBEL TARGETS. At which point we can switch NKVD agents to all vigilantes if we want and proceed from there. Rules aren't clear on when/how/how many rolecheck masks our agents can use, but if they can change them post start, we're 100% fine. Even then, trading a single Dt for a single mafia at days 3-4 is fantastic trade given they have 1 kp/day (depending on how many there are). Um...no. The Rebels can certainly organize asap. Hi, who did you kill last night? O no one, cool. I'll wait till tomorrow night. They aren't going to get hasty. You are essentially saying OMG WE CAN PREVENT THEM FROM BEING ORGANIZED! when it just costs us some Agents. When the total number of roles in the game is revealed then they all know o ok, there's only 1 or 2 left. Time to start getting trigger happy. It's never a good idea trading 1 for 1 in a game when no one can be confirmed. Ever. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 06:12 L wrote: Basically you've admitted mafia have no information, but you want ukranians to be able to check NKVD agents and see a blue/green and KNOW there's a safe kill target, and KNOW rebels are actually rebels. C'mon Ace, keep the story straight. Those are your tips. Follow them :3. If Agents are always green why would the Rebels kill them every time when every game peopel have been bitching about blue hunting? Makes no sense. My story is always straight. Just like the other game when you were wrong about my allegiance. I'm always right, just face it. :/ | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 06:15 Scamp wrote: Ace your scenerio is if an NKVD agent finds a Ukranian. But we're talking about the NKVD posing as a Ukranian. Also, what about counter-proof? I like how I have all the power in that argument and I don't have to prove myself at all. But wait, are we all agreed now that every NKVD should list themselves as Ukranian? I think it sounds that way. whats the argument. Prove it. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 06:20 Scamp wrote: Um...I thought the proof is that any NKVD agent listing himself as anything else isn't really helpful. Why isn't it? If he lists himself as a plain towny he might not get hit, as it's been shown Mafia players for some odd reason want to ignore greens and hit blue(red this game). If he flips Rebel he will surely be questioned. There's no way around it. Are you telling me the Rebels will RC someone, sees he's Rebel and go nah, better leave that guy alone he might be an NKVD? Of course not, because no matter what if the guy really does flip NKVD the Rebel can also claim he's an NKVD agent undercover. Hence, BOTH of these guys have an out that can't be proven for days. If someone has a legit out in a Mafia game you can't lynch them unless you can prove their out is bullshit and you can't. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Ace
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If rebels RC someone who isn't blue, the immediate response is to kill them because they aren't blue. Mafia have a time limit, their weakness is self-killing. the moment they know someone isn't them, he's on the chopping block. Why would i take the effort to RC someone, find out they're not mafia, then NOT kill them? Why would I waste KP like that? Why would you trust anyone that can't answer 2 questions? If you're not a Rebel you're better off hoping they have more targets. If you flip Rebel you WILL be questioned. Once you can't answer those 2 questions you die. There is no escape from that. If the goal is to survive the time limit why are you putting yourself in harm's way?. Just sit tight and don't try and be brave. You can't infiltrate the network, a roleclaim doesn't work and you just die for drawing attention to yourself. Pretty much any townie can be confirmed by a dying NKVD since there is no cover in this game. 1 trade is -1Kp/day if not more. Um...no. If the NKVD agent dies, and says he investigated X all we know is that he really was an Agent. X still has the defense that he was an undercover NKVD Agent also. The dead Agent's death can't confirm or deny this. See, that's the thing, you're assuming that ukranians are going to rolecheck correctly on the first night (because otherwise my day 3-4 timeframe is 100% correct), miss medics/veterans and not kill each other off during that 3 blind night period and hope that NKVD have not identified medics, because if they do they can have themselves protected and give us assured targets. After which, mafia are still behind in information because their rings will be smaller and delayed in being set up. At that point, we can switch our NKVD agents to whatever we want. If we want them to switch green, sure. The chances that someone is RCed twice is hilariously low until the game wears on, and if that's the case, we don't trade 1:1. We trade 3:1 or higher given that ukranian RCs are KILLS DENIED. Not at all. If there is 0 contact between any of them they just keep on RCing. It doesn't matter if they get it on Day 1 or Day 2. It's what happens once the NKVD agent gets confronted - they are dead. They don't even need to care about NKVD Agents finding Medics - why would they? Once they know he's not legit they just tell whoever else they know is Rebel to stack hits on him. He is DEAD. You're logic is also off. How can the Ukrainians be behind in information when they have RCs that are infinite and we have no way of confirming anyone? Eventually they will organize, but trying to stop them from organizing by sacrificing Agents when all we need to do is survive is foolish - ESPECIALLY when they can also claim to be an undercover Agent. The plan is flawed, get over it. Seriously if I was a Rebel this game I'd be praying all the NKVD Agents go undercover, investigate me and present themselves nicely gift wrapped because they have no idea what I know at any point in time. I'd get all of them killed asap and move on with the game. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Ace
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Ace
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On July 30 2009 07:02 L wrote: Basically, if NKVD do not contact their targets as a rule, rebels finding rebels cannot safely talk to each other upon fear of being confirmed blue, while our NKVD are free to check for town aligned players. This also prevents ukranians from mass pming people with "lol i checked you". yes they can. Rebels will always talk to any blue they find. Hence, any NKVD dressed as blue will be contacted whether they want to or not. At this point if you assume everyone followed your rule SURE it confirms the Rebel as guilty BUT the Rebel always has the defense that he is also an undercover NKVD Agent and was contacted first. How do you find out who is the liar? Come on, THINK the entire scenario through and stop assuming everyone is dumb to the point they can't realize they have a simple alibi that fucks the town over. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 07:07 coltrane wrote: sorry, but what a pompuos fuck., You should be discussing plans WITH THE TOWN, you are no one, i dont care if you are vet and i am newb, YOU ARE WRONG, YOU ARE DIVIDING THE TOWN, YOUR BEHAVIOR ISNT TO BE TRUSTED. Gonna tell this once again I havent played ever with any of you, and i dont trust anyone and i dont have any prejudgment. I dont care if you are a vet or a newb, and thats exactly why all of you should be voting for me. hows that election going for you? LOL | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
TBH that seems like a BS excuse because even if for whatever reason we entertain the possibility that Ace is NKVD and I'm a rebel, why the hell would I blow my identity like that? As a rebel I'd want to stay hidden as long as possible and only attempt to come out when my cover is blown. Because the converse is always true. What if I feel you'd go to the town if I'm not sure of your role and decide to come out first? :/ Ace: Hey, saw you're a rebel, just to make sure, who did you kill last night/who are you going to kill tomorrow? Falcynn: I used a role check last night and found out that (person that I really did role check since I'm NKVD) is green. Tomorrow I'm gonna kill L. *tomorrow comes and goes* Ace: dude, you said you were gonna kill L. Falcynn: fuck man, fucking medic blocked me. You know what, I think I'll role check this next turn blah blah blah. Which at this point means I'd just ignore you or kill you. You said you RC'd someone the night before, and then picked someone who I think both of us would guess had protection. Why would I trust you and keep talking to you? :/ You won't be stalling for long as you'd probably be dead. Besides what confirmed greens would you be passing info on to - remember all you know is me and I could also claim to be an undercover Agent. Remember it's not always about what's true but what you can convince people to believe. | ||
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