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Not as sexy as mine.
Mafia VII - GG - Page 10
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
Not as sexy as mine. | ||
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Showtime!
Canada2938 Posts
I can think of more than one way to abuse that role, heh. | ||
semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
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Showtime!
Canada2938 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.betterholdem.com/images/poker_game_dogs5.jpg) Big Slick pulls the Ace from underneath his sleeve: "I'M RUNNING FOR MAYOR, YEEEEHAAAA!" He does a little jig while firing a few rounds into the air. Why me? - Good Instincts/Impulses: I can read people well based on several variables. I'm constantly assessing situations. - Puppet Master - Instrumental Player: other players will vouch for me and with bodyguard aid it's already an uphill battle for the Mafia) - Good Intel/Informant (detectives will be able to verify this shortly) - Good Entertainer: I will make this fun. Why not? - Unofficially the last Veteran to signup. All it took was one PM. Go fish! - I never use one strategy; I'm difficult to read and I think outside of the box. Little aside: Everyone has a few tells, but I know how to keep people on their toes. However, I get right to the point. You won't have to read long posts from me. - Can I be trusted? The question is who can at this moment? I'll share what I have once I'm in office. It isn't much, but it will help people rest easy. - Normally I play on a need to know basis. In other words, I will only share info that is confirmed. The real reason you shouldn't vote for me is I won't be as active as I was in other games. Hey, I have kids to feed! I've already taken proper precautions though to avoid this. I gave my cellphone # to several players so they could keep me in the loop. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
I'm pretty sure it's a self serving role (playing to his own win condition and not ours), but would the town's best interest be in keeping or removing them? I can't decide, maybe I should sleep on it. Well, its obviously in the best interest of the town to keep methods of killing mafia. If there's a lack of information on mafia suspects he will be less useful, if there's far more he will be more useful. Either way, determining how we should 'manage' the contract killer is 100% dependant on information we don't currently have. And now, to read ten pages. Brb. Alright, I just checked the rest of the thread. New issues: Without knowing the CK's win condition, we can't precisely determine WHY or HOW he will act. We can, however, look at a few conditions: 1) The CK's game ends when the standard townie/mafia game ends. 2) If the CK dies by drawing too much animosity, he will die because the town/mafia will know who he is. 3) The CK's mode of action provides him with superior information regarding the two sides. It seems, in my mind, rather PREDICTABO that the CK would act fairly neutrally until he has enough information to precipitate a quick loss for one side by cutting out their most important roles/dropping their KP. | ||
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dreamflower
United States312 Posts
As for things from the Day One that the detectives could verify as clues, I'd like to suggest the following. Some of them are pretty tenuous, but at this point I'm pretty sure I have no idea where clues might be hidden. 1. The lunging figure that bowled into BloodyCobbler 2. The TV 3. The incomprehensible phrase 4. The fact that both of them gazed up 5. BloodyCobbler being left to die slowly, rather than getting finished off right away by his killer | ||
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Tricode
United States538 Posts
On April 23 2009 01:33 L wrote: Well, its obviously in the best interest of the town to keep methods of killing mafia. If there's a lack of information on mafia suspects he will be less useful, if there's far more he will be more useful. Either way, determining how we should 'manage' the contract killer is 100% dependant on information we don't currently have. And now, to read ten pages. Brb. Alright, I just checked the rest of the thread. New issues: Without knowing the CK's win condition, we can't precisely determine WHY or HOW he will act. We can, however, look at a few conditions: 1) The CK's game ends when the standard townie/mafia game ends. 2) If the CK dies by drawing too much animosity, he will die because the town/mafia will know who he is. 3) The CK's mode of action provides him with superior information regarding the two sides. It seems, in my mind, rather PREDICTABO that the CK would act fairly neutrally until he has enough information to precipitate a quick loss for one side by cutting out their most important roles/dropping their KP. That is dependent on who gets the role. Yeah, that might be probably a logical choice of action for the CK, but what if the CK doesn't feel like waiting and wants to use their power? I know the first thing I would do is kill BloodyCobbler if i had CK and if he was in the game (regardless if he is townie or not)...j/k...or am I? The action taken for CK could seriously depend on the person. If they wish to wait it out, or if they get a little power hungry and want to use their powers to kill someone, or if they just decide to attempt to join one side (for what ever their own reason is). If the CK wants to join mafia, he can just find any excuse to make a contract with them ;p Either case I still stand by the best bet for the Ck is to join town and try to get med protection, so they can help find mafia and kill them. It's kinda like a lone wolf role, you can be on the side you want, but still work independently. Though you still can work with the team, would make the team as a whole stronger. | ||
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
Just in case people look at the "inactive" list. | ||
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On April 23 2009 01:33 L wrote:Either way, determining how we should 'manage' the contract killer is 100% dependant on information we don't currently have. We shouldn't try to be "managing" the Contract Killer. I doubt he would take kindly to that if he has his own agenda. We want to help him with his agenda as long as it doesn't interfere with ours. Here is a compelling argument for the Contract Killer to side with the town: The town has less ability to backstab you. If the Mafia thinks you are not useful any longer, they could just night kill you. Siding with the Mafia allows no way back out without death. If you need to slip back into the shadows for some reason, it's easier to do that if sided with the town. The town does not have that flexibility to easily get rid of an unwanted Contract Killer. A Contract Killer siding with the Mafia can no longer think just about himself because the Mafia member he is in contact with has more power than he does. The Contract Killer is likely to have more power than the town member he is in contact with thus easier for him to keep relations positive. As a Contract Killer put yourself in the position of power in the relationship with your contact and side with town. After thinking about this I think it is likely in the town's best interest to keep the Contract Killers alive. | ||
Bockit
Sydney2287 Posts
Just finished reading the thread. I have to say, the contract killer really is an interesting role. I really like this idea of trying to get him on our side by trying to align his goals with our goals. It's something the mafia can't do because they obviously can't post in the thread blatantly advertising their services so it's an advantage (if at this stage tiny, perhaps much more exploitable as the game progresses) that we should make use of. Stating the obvious here but if we can get the CK on our side that's an unlimited vigi, something worth spending a considerable amount of effort to get. I can't say that these are definitely correct but I'd like to put them out there for consideration. It is likely that the CK have to survive the entire game The deals they make are relevant to the win condition in some way. This one is much sketchier so I'd like opinions on it but first let me explain my reasoning. Possibilities here could include 'the side you make the most deals with has to win'. This is worth considering because it promotes the idea playstyle where the CK will play both sides until a point where they can pick which side is going to win and align themselves with them. Which means that if we do find the CK, we need to be careful we don't give away too much info. Moving on from the CK for now: Mayoral elections, not sure who to vote for yet, I'm not too impressed by stuff like 'I worked hard to ensure town victory in x game', I much prefer to vote for the player who I essentially think is better than the other candidates at stuff like behavioural analysis (eg why I voted for MBH last game, I think most people can oragnise the town well if they are active enough). Clues: Dreamflower covered everything I saw in the first post. I'd like to get people to please stop posting about 3 lions  I think we finally proved (myself included) that it's useless to bandy about day 1 clue *accusations*. Much better to do what dreamflower did and come up with potential clues. To take it further, here's how I would rank the potential clues that have been noted so far.Clues I see as likely Incomprehensible phrase TV/TV exploding Clues that I'm not sure about Both looking up Clues that I think are just creative writing (eg kicking as a form of attack in mafia 1) BloodyCobbler being left to die slowly. I'm by no means an authority on the subject though, so people please discuss. Which leads me on to my final point. We need to keep this thread active! Yes it is active at the moment, but in a couple of RL days? I think a pivotal factor in the last game was that we were incredibly active for the majority of the game. So discuss! | ||
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Bockit
Sydney2287 Posts
On April 23 2009 03:27 semioldguy wrote: A Contract Killer siding with the Mafia can no longer think just about himself because the Mafia member he is in contact with has more power than he does. The Contract Killer is likely to have more power than the town member he is in contact with thus easier for him to keep relations positive. As a Contract Killer put yourself in the position of power in the relationship with your contact and side with town. To the CK: If your victory condition is indeed based on surviving until the end of the game, I think this is a point you should strongly consider when choosing which side to approach. @sog It's definitely in the towns best interests. We lose nothing by cooperating with the CK and only have potential gains. We can't really contact him by advertising a blue (this is silly), if he finds one of us through rolecheck then he knows a role already. So by cooperating, we have no losses that are avoidable, so I say that we cooperate (It's 5am I just finished a huge report and I'm having trouble making that sentence work, please forgive me )EDIT: Tried to fix that sentence and some other grammar. | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
Since the CK can't even act until Day 2, I am assuming he will just wait and see which side appears to have the advantage / can offer him better services at that time. I also would not expect him to side with either town or mafia for the duration of the game. His allegiance may not be consistent. However Bockit is correct that we have no avoidable losses from this, as long as we avoid advertising a blue. I don't know who I'm going to vote for yet. Either Ace or Qatol, I won't be voting for Showtime! due to certain... past experiences. But I will say now that this weekend and following week are gonna be really hectic. I'll try to be active as much as I can though, sicne it gives me an excuse to procrastinate  | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
He can be working for Mafia, but if DT checked flips blue and can just say he has sided with the town. | ||
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On April 23 2009 05:58 Ace wrote: @Sog: I 100% agree with your analysis on why the CK would usually want to side with the town - backstabbing mafia hoes. However, what if the CK is not someone lurking in the shadows but a valuable, outspoken voice? The Mafia would LOVE to have that guy. He can be working for Mafia, but if DT checked flips blue and can just say he has sided with the town. It's probably not be a good strategy for the Contract Killer to be a valuable, outspoken voice. I don't think a Contract Killer wants to be found, he wants to find people. If at any time both Mafia and town have figured out that the other side also knows he is the Contract Killer, then he instantly becomes a liability to both, pretty much ensuring his own death. Mafia have no real advantage over the town in finding the Contract Killer, but the town has Detectives and the Contract Killer can be found that way by the town. If the Contract Killer is already sided with Mafia he is now in real danger as he has to somehow avoid letting each side know that the other knows about him. If he is role checked, he needs the person to claimed to have role-checked him to be (or think) that he is the new contractor, otherwise he risks death. He can't just kill the person who contacts him either, because it could either be a mouth for a real Detective or the Detective could have entrusted that information to someone else to act on in the event of his own suspicious murder. That player being killed could bring suspicion and death upon him. This is an additional risk of going to Mafia which would not be a factor for the Contract Killer if going to town. | ||
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Tricode
United States538 Posts
On April 23 2009 05:58 Ace wrote: @Sog: I 100% agree with your analysis on why the CK would usually want to side with the town - backstabbing mafia hoes. However, what if the CK is not someone lurking in the shadows but a valuable, outspoken voice? The Mafia would LOVE to have that guy. He can be working for Mafia, but if DT checked flips blue and can just say he has sided with the town. That depends though. If DT checks him and there are clues and good enough evidence supporting that he killed townies on their own, then they just became a threat for the town and the town would just kill the CK. Best bet still is for the CK to join town, cause it is hard to lie about that with out upsetting the town. Also the CK could then act and try to help town but Mafia would just view CK as a threat after that point and kill the CK. It will let them have a better chance of surviving through the whole game and most likely have a med protect them so they could constantly use their powers with little consequences (since they would be collaborating with the town and wouldn't be their fault if they did a miss. Though if they try to use that to help the mafia, eventually when town asks them to hit someone that is mafia and they don't well we can consider it betrayal and lynch them.) | ||
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On April 23 2009 06:46 Tricode wrote: ...eventually when town asks them to hit someone that is mafia and they don't well we can consider it betrayal and lynch them. Or they go through with it and the Mafia are like "what the hell are you doing?" and night kill him. The Contract Killer can't risk ever being known by both sides. Best way to ensure that is to side with town. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
We shouldn't try to be "managing" the Contract Killer Here is a compelling argument for the Contract Killer to side with the town Took you a grand total of 2 lines to start contradicting your own position. You make a case for getting medic protection, but that's pretty much exactly what I said the CK would do: take neutral, defensive actions at the start of the game. If his victory condition is survival, the CK will want to play defensively until he can end the game, because unlike the town or mafia, there is only one of him and he cannot afford to die. We lose nothing by cooperating with the CK and only have potential gains Apart from giving him information on blue members of town; Don't assume the CK is going to ask for the services of a single blue member of town for the entire game. Either way, the CK is going to want to side with the side that seems strongest at any period in time. If we're getting smashed, he'll side with mafia in order to assure he doesn't get picked off during night deaths. If mafia's getting smashed he has no incentive to do anything other than contract for medics and play the waiting game. That's all, however, assuming his objectives are based on survival. IF that's the case, his utility is 100% based on our momentum, so lets focus on quality clue analysis. Its quite possible his objectives are something like "kill 1 mafia member and kill 1 detective" or something off the wall like that, so 100% basing our strategy on an unknown is risky. | ||
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On April 23 2009 07:00 L wrote: Took you a grand total of 2 lines to start contradicting your own position. You make a case for getting medic protection, but that's pretty much exactly what I said the CK would do: take neutral, defensive actions at the start of the game. If his victory condition is survival, the CK will want to play defensively until he can end the game, because unlike the town or mafia, there is only one of him and he cannot afford to die. Way to quote me out of context. let me state it differently. Other people are saying/planning on using the Contract Killer to the town's advantage. I am suggesting that the Contract Killer use the town to his advantage and trying to come up with scenarios where that might be possible. Its quite possible his objectives are something like "kill 1 mafia member and kill 1 detective" or something off the wall like that, so 100% basing our strategy on an unknown is risky. Any off the wall things like that where he has to find certain people/roles to kill, he is even more better off using the town because then he can eventually find a Detective and start doubling his efforts in his search for which roles he needs to kill. | ||
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Tricode
United States538 Posts
Apart from giving him information on blue members of town; Don't assume the CK is going to ask for the services of a single blue member of town for the entire game. Either way, the CK is going to want to side with the side that seems strongest at any period in time. If we're getting smashed, he'll side with mafia in order to assure he doesn't get picked off during night deaths. If mafia's getting smashed he has no incentive to do anything other than contract for medics and play the waiting game. That's all, however, assuming his objectives are based on survival. IF that's the case, his utility is 100% based on our momentum, so lets focus on quality clue analysis. Its quite possible his objectives are something like "kill 1 mafia member and kill 1 detective" or something off the wall like that, so 100% basing our strategy on an unknown is risky. If CK demands more services from other blues, then something would seem a bit odd. If CK wants a med, then CK will probably get a med but we should keep that med identity secret and that med will be the only one to need to do the job (unless he wants more protection if he feels like mafia found him out) Which is good cause if he joins mafia and is found out CK would just be killed and Mafia can't protect him. A bad thing for the CK to do is try to pick of Mafia and try to pick off blues turn by turn. That would just anger both sides and both sides would probably attempt to kill CK off. Either case, if CK demands more services, it might be not much to worry about, he doesn't need to know who they are as long as he gets the protection he wants. Now if he wants to have a detective do a clue check for his services that might mean giving up one detective to him but it should never go any further then 1 DT, that's if we even want to take a risk in letting him know that information cause he could just slip that info to mafia (who could just randomly decide to take our blues and we would have a hard time knowing if CK back stabbed the town or not. | ||
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