EPTI suggest you don't allow dead people free reign to post (except for the usual cheerleading.) Also, make sure that people who are playing know that they have to *play to win*, 'cos Mafia sort of blows if one guy torpedoes their own team.
Team Liquid Mafia [gg]
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I suggest you don't allow dead people free reign to post (except for the usual cheerleading.) Also, make sure that people who are playing know that they have to *play to win*, 'cos Mafia sort of blows if one guy torpedoes their own team. | ||
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I'm used to just having one lynch and one scum nightkill as standard... this seems pretty wild. | ||
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I've got to admit that the setup seems highly dependant on roles and such. I tend to like more minalist setups with just a few roles like cop (townie, tags someone each night to detect if they're town or scum), doc/paramedic, godfather (scum leader, is immune to nightkills and returns town to cop investigations) and vigilante (as you described), and would usually not have very many of these roles extant at all. I don't really get the 'clue' thing, either, do you mean that you drop a few extra hints each day? I dunno, I feel that you should be finding mafia through discussion (i.e. mafia don't want to get each other killed, so they have to be careful with their words; also, since they know who is scum, they're not really *hunting* for mafia and you need to pick 'em apart that way.) more than arbitary things like that. I'm curious, too- can you link me to some of these other games you've played? It sounds like we have very different views of how the game is run. | ||
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Are there *no* townies without powers at all? | ||
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During night, people send in their night actions and the mod resolves them all; so scum kill people, doctors protect people, cops investigation etc. Then, once they're resolved, day begins. It can be quite short if everyone gets actions in quickly. | ||
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Mod, are we allowed to edit and delete posts? I... would be strongly against this. | ||
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First and foremost, if editing *is* allowed, then it should frowned upon anyway, so if you catch someone editing their post be sure to call it out, even if they later say it's just for some spelling mistake or whatever. Far more likely scum will want to edit posts than good, loyal townies! Conversly, if you call someone out on editing a post and they haven't actually done it, be prepared for some serious pain. Secondly, if you're a townie, don't lie. Ever. If we catch someone lying, we must lynch them, and lynch them quickly! Only mafiso have reason to lie. Thirdly, if you have any special abilities, that's awesome. Don't tell anyone. Giving away your special abilities is akin to painting a 'kill me' sign on your back for the mafia, who obviously don't want you around. Only disclose your role if it would be immediately useful to do so (for instance, if it looks like you may be lynched and it'd be a waste of your powers, or if you're positive you can out mafia by claiming.) Use them as you see fit, don't let people whine for paramedic protection and give into it, your own judgement is paramount. (unless you're the pardoner, in which case you shouldn't use it pretty much ever unless you think the mayor is scum. If the town has decided to kill someone, don't start being arrogant and thinking that just because you have some role power you deserve to dictate the game, 'cos you don't, and I will treat using this power without an incredibly good reason as a serious scumtell.) Fourthly, I suggest we elect someone who has played mafia in the past to be mayor. I nominate myself (of course), but if anyone else wants to step up, they should. Remember, if you're mayor, you are in a position of power and are difficult to kill; if you don't actually think you'd be capable or likely to contribute strongly to the game, I feel inclined to discourage you from trying. Finally, try to post at least once a day and talk about the situation. Idle comments are generally bad, actually try to instigate some detective work and out some scum. Basically, make it hard for scum themselves to lie low- if we rigorously question and lynch people who don't participate, that forces scum to talk, which makes it more likely they'll say something dumb and reveal their true colours. | ||
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I can't for the life of me understand why you'd think lying could be a good idea, though. | ||
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Please tell me why you think what I'm saying is wrong. If you don't think it's wrong... why are you doing what you are doing? Why would you vote for SoMuchBetter on the basis of a paint file alone? | ||
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It can be said that seriousness is not something that expected early in the game. But, likewise, it shouldn't be spat upon, either. | ||
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I am kinda leery of clues (my stance is that you can make up pretty much anything from the descriptions and attribute it to any given player, and given that in various other games that have been linked to, red herrings are deliberatey slipped into the flavour, kinda making me wonder if they're even intended to be helpful) but they're as good as anything for pointing fingers early on. Randomly selecting a mayor isn't actually a bad idea provided he uses his abilities wisely. The number of scum is relatively low compared to the number of townies; odds dictate we'll likely hit someone decent. I could get behind this, but how do we generate a random result? | ||
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On February 12 2008 07:41 Empyrean wrote: Think about it, guys. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Tracil or anyone, but in the introduction, it's known that there are multiple mafia. I'm just a bit suspicious that Tracil's being so helpful. How do we know the mafia aren't acting in collusion to get him elected? He has a large number of votes already. After his election, in which he has the mafia vote AND the townspeople vote, IF he is part of the mafia, the game is effectively over. Mafia + major is a very dangerous position to be in. That being said, I'm withholding my vote. I want to see Tracil's defense. I also have dinner plans coming up! (I only used Tracil as an example. The same reasoning can be applied for the other people as well) You find it suspicious that I'm being helpful. It stands to reason, then, that the way for me to *not* be suspicious is to... not be helpful. People can see what's wrong with that, right? I've seen a very dangerous logical fallacy being spread around, starting with Live2Win and repeated here; it's also a regrettably common one, especially in newbie games of mafia. Basically, it goes like this. 1) Mafioso want to be seen as trusted townies. 2) Person X is taking actions that appear to be trustworthy. 3) Therefore, Person X could be/is mafia! To reply to that. Firstly, if your only reason to find me suspicious is that I've stepped up and pointed out some ways on how I feel the game should be played, I don't feel that's really a valid call to be any more suspicious of me than anyone else. I'm going to define suspicious more as 'I somewhat believe him to be mafia' than 'we should pay close attention to his words'; you should be paying close attention to *everyones* words, or lack of them. Obviously it's good for you read what I say and make up my own mind. Furthermore, each and every person here has a vested interest in being seen as trustworthy, town or mafia. As a townie, one of your duties, believe it or not, is to avoid getting lynched, and the best way to do that is to be helpful and active. People making light of my statement that we shouldn't lie are kinda missing the point. Townies shouldn't lie, Mafia practically have to. Townies don't have *reason* to lie; mafia always do. Yes, you can die at anytime, especially if you are, well, on the right track as far as your discussion goes. However, as a town, we must set the pace of the game and not allow the mafia to stifle discussion! Fear is the tool of evil! If *every townie discusses things as much as they can* then the mafia are going to be hard-pressed for targets, no? <-> It's been said that I haven't participated as much in detective work. I've already set out why I don't want to go heavily after clues myself at this point. I view them more as peripheral evidence to other cases if anything. I'd rather go after people on the basis of what they say and do than anything else. However, I am, in fact, already somewhat suspicious of some people. 1) Manhini, who appeared to simply dislike me for no reason and refused to elaborate. Again, discussion is, well, what town does. Not talking or responding to questions = bad. Very bad. 2) Live2Win, who is avoiding voting for me on the basis that 'Tracil knows how to play; if he is mafia, that would be very bad for us if he was mayor, much worse than if SMB was mayor'. Firstly, mayor is a potent pro-town position. It stands to reason it will be more effective in the hands of someone familiar with the game, as it keeps them alive without necessitating protection of any kind. Secondly, his basis for distrust of me in based partially upon a logical fallacy, which I outlined above; the reason essentially amounts to 'but Tracil COULD be mafia!' and that will apply to basically everyone, in any discussion in any context until they have somehow confirmed themselves. Thirdly, even if you assume that my attempt to set out some solid tips on playing that are clearly beneficial to the town and are likely useful to the hordes of people here who haven't played mafia before is not, in fact, telling of me being trustworthy one way or the other, then *odds alone* dictate that it's unlikely for me to be scum, and the same would go for any of the mayoral candidates, and as someone who has played this game quite a lot, I feel I'm a better person to be elected than the others who have stepped forward. To conclude, suspicion against me stems from people feeling that mayor is a dangerous position if the mafia possess it, and that it's possible I might be mafia. I don't really think town should compromise all their decisions based on 'person xyz might be mafia', that's really just a step up from thinking 'but if I accuse a mafioso, I might die at night.' Look at what people say. Be careful. Ask them questions, demand explanations- but if you end up not having anything more suspicious out of them than what you feel about everyone else, it's time to persue a new line of enquiry. | ||
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NONETHELESS I am rapidly coming to believe that the Dr. is more scummy than you (if only because you're posting explanations and he's pulling a Vader on us.) | ||
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Still, I believe it's more reliable to go after, well, things that are clear and obvious than to dream up convoluted explanations for why someone could be scum; far better than to go after someone for... no real reason. | ||
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Fundamentally, it's likely that one of the two is lying. If we lynch both of them, then we're highly likely to hit scum, and trading one townie for one scum is actually a good deal. | ||
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I guess we'll get to it once elections are over! | ||
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On February 12 2008 09:51 GeneralStan wrote: I don't trust Tracil. The man makes too much sense. ????? how is that even a reason | ||
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"Tracil makes too much sense." I'm making sense. It is implied he agrees with what I'm saying with that comment, or at least believes it's logical, so.. he turns around and decides I'm not trustworthy? I don't understand. | ||
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However, I disagree that we should be focusing elsewhere; the Dr. Dragoon vs. Swallow thing wasn't just a 'mishap'; it was either a blatant mistake on Dragoon's part, or a stupid action on Swallows. I don't think we can really let this slide. The attitudes people take on this will be noted for future days- people should weigh in on it, and I know that if I'm elected mayor, I will likely use the instant-lynch to kill either Dragoon or Caller at this point (the latter because he said 'I am mafia', which is.. well.. dumb.) | ||
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@ Shallow: Uh, sorry! | ||
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Seraphim, if you want to lynch me, explain why. Give your opponents a chance to explain themselves. Without an actual argument, there is no reason to follow what you say. | ||
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Going through the posts, responding as I run through them. Lots of reiteration going on, I fear. On February 12 2008 11:28 dancefayedance!~ wrote: I did think that of course and it is plausible. i was only worried that he is trying to be mayor so he has more reason to defend his "good" name if he is a mafia member. i wasnt suspicious at first really, however, i tried to watch his posts and see how much of an effort he takes in responding to all of them that say he is the mafia. we all know dr.dragoon is the first one to get lynched, and if tracil isn't a mafia member he knows that the second day clues won't lead to him, so why be so persistent in defending your character especially when you already have majority of the votes for mayor? but if he is a mafia member he would take more time clearing up his name especially this early on. not only does it soldifiy his election as mayor but we'll all assume he isn't a mafioso in the very beginning, making this game his. i'm only saying this : proceed with caution. I'll say it again, I guess. I don't find the clue system useful; given the length of the boast and the huge pool of players we have, I feel that if you look hard enough, you'll find something that could point to almost anyone. Furthermore, since the clues could be so incredibly obscure as to not be helpful AND deliberate red herrings can be included, I think it may even be dangerous to persue cases solely on the basis of clues. As for defending myself... I feel it's necessary to defend myself when people attack me. Especially when they don't actually explain themselves at all. Again, editing posts is bad because it's more likely mafia have something to hide than townies. Why do it? Why not post again to clarify things? Why is editing a superior choice? If people make a mistake, it should be there for all to see, not hastily covered up! The solution is clearly not to allow editing because mafia members might use other people who edit as mislynch targets, but to *not edit* and not allow yourself to become a target that way! Townies being dumb are an unfortunate reality. If someone is doing something stupid, that's no excuse for their actions, as I firmly believe any one mafia is more likely to do something stupid than any one townie, who is *not* as likely to get caught up in lies or anything. On February 12 2008 12:29 demonic_phate wrote: I'm starting to beleive that if you just shut your mouth up and stay quiet you have a much higher chance at survival. Otherwise people will look you up, devise some crackpot reason for you being the mafioso, declare their reasons.... Madness? THIS IS TL MAFIA!!!!!! NO! DO NOT SHUT YOUR MOUTH! Talk lots and lots and discuss things! This game is not about personal survival! A townie win is a win for all townies! Avoid getting lynched, yes- but shutting up out of fear of getting killed at night? That's crap. On February 12 2008 12:32 Dr.Dragoon wrote: 1. shallow is not mafia, but that doesn't mean I'm mafia either 2. Photoshopping a message to frame someone is a stupid idea, but an EVEN STUPIDER thing to do, would be to send the message in that PM. So that "pm" is a lot less likely than a fake shop. 3. Simply a joke post, check out a lot of my earlier posts where I'm just joking around. Only the mafia know who aren't mafia, so it's impossible to say with certainty what Shallow's alignment is... especially for you. Exception: The mayor will know who his bodyguards are. But he's not elected yet. You also hinted at the possibility of both you and Shallow lying. Uh, are you saying you lied? I may have missed this. Lying's bad, really bad, mmkay. Townies shouldn't do it. On February 12 2008 12:47 CDRdude wrote: Speaking of shallow lying low, isn't that exactly what he's doing now? I haven't seen him post much in the past couple of hours. People have other things to do, as long as he posts a few times each day of real time that's honestly enough for me. I'm sure there are HEAPS of people who haven't posted anything yet, but it's very hard to pick them out without going through the entire thread. On February 12 2008 13:58 CDRdude wrote: What if the mayor declares a double lynching as his first act in office? If I'm mayor I will almost certainly use double lynches as soon as possible. My first act in office, however, is to lynch one guy. Town seems to support Dr. Dragoon as a target in general, and that's where I'll probably be going with it. | ||
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Why would I want to kill my political rivals off *after I'm elected*? o-o; | ||
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I also already suspect you anyway and this has been made plainly evident. It would be equally bad of me to get elected mayor and kill someone without hinting at whom I would target beforehand at all. | ||
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I'll go through the thread again and check out what both you and Swallow have said; I'd obviously rather hit scum right off the bat, of course. | ||
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Townies pulling shit like that probably don't want to win and are harmful to the town as a whole. If we let jokes like that slide now, that can give mafioso free licence to make up stuff in the future and then pass it off as just being funny. I'm not prepared to simply let it go, and if you are both townies, then it should be an object lesson as to *why you shouldn't bull stunts like that*. And what is with this 'be wary of those who lead discussions' crap? If nobody tries to start a discussion or go anywhere, the town as a whole is not going to progress! Trying to dissuade people from talking is kinda suicidal. | ||
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As an aside, I'm trying to win this game, so, yeah. I will crack down just as hard on anyone else who comes out with stuff like that without a verrrrry good reason. Don't take it personally or anything. <-> Actually, though, mind outlining for me people who you think would make good targets to be lynched today? If we don't kill you or Shallow, who *do* we kill? Mostly directed at Dr. Dragoon, but anyone who thinks the case on him and Shallow is weak and shouldn't be followed should answer this question (and detail your answers, please.) | ||
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Secondly, *if I never try to kill anyone based on the fact that they *might* have a power role of some kind, then I will never be able to support any lynch*. Thirdly, we *cannot* just wait for more clues. The mafia gets a whole bunch of kills each night. We get hardly any; they *will* kill townies every night and each and every townie they kill might have a power role of some kind. Conversly, lynching has a chance of hitting mafia, one that can be refined with clues and verbal tells. Killing mafia is the only way we can win the game. Fourthly, by accusing people and threatening them with death, I can force them to actually speak, rather than continue to go 'hahaha lulz' and make jokes. They'll have to weigh in seriously on various issues and there'll be no way around that; if they refuse to participate, then they're not trying to win for town. Point the fifth; if we just sit around and adopt a strategy of 'wait and see', that will allow the mafia to dictate the pace of the game via their own kills. Later in the game, as well, we won't be able to go back and look at discussion that took place near the beginning to see if it has new relevance (e.g. did person x defend person y back then, even though it has now been shown that person y was mafia? were their reasons sound at that time?) | ||
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The mayor has the power to call double lynches- and he *should*- but the fact remains that the mafia get... what, seven kills to start? Town can pull two a day, tops? Vigilantes exist of course but they're a bit more random than the town (due to being left to their own devices) and they can't kill over the first night. | ||
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Frankly, I think you're abusing your position as a 'known' figure within TL.net to encourage people to vote for you without proposing a plan of action or outlining the logic on which you'll use the mayoral powers; in short, you're relying on a cult of personality to get you elected. Do you have any plans on who you will lynch if you are elected, and how will you use the ability to declare double-lynches? | ||
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If you think I'm being reckless, then consider this: If I pardoned someone you were voting for, would you not be *more* pissed off? We're a democracy, after all~ Only reason I'd pardon someone is if I become convinced the mayor is scum and abusing his extra votes, which I will have made abundantly clear before I do so. <-> As an aside, saying 'As mayor, I'll CLEAN UP' is not a policy, it's your goal. Do you have any plan at all? | ||
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I can see plenty of reason to be suspicious of you and still am myself. <-> @ Dr. Dragoon: I'm getting sick of this. What more evidence do I need? Shallow claimed to receive a message from you. The counterclaim is that he shopped it up as a joke, something to which I do not believe he has agreed. If I am wrong, link me to the relevant post. If not, then I can only conclude that *one* of you is lying, and your attitude thus far has left me thinking it is *more likely to be you*. *This is an attempt on someones part to force a mislynch. Why do we just let it slide?* Townies shouldn't be trying to pull that. | ||
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<-> Furthermore, it is not inconceivable that the mafia will argue against their comrades- in public. Remember that this is a *team* game. *Teams* win, not individuals. Therefore, sacrificing a mafioso in order to show that 'if I was mafia, I would never do that!' is patently false. It's a very common tactic. When we look at how people have voted and who they have lynched and such, we're looking at *why* their selected their targets; if the underlying logic is faulty, then they should be questioned on it- even if they were successful in their hit. | ||
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Honestly, pointing out that HE MIGHT BE MAFIA in response to any argument is painfully obvious and totally stupid. It feels more like an attempt to close discussion on a difficult topic, rather than to mobilize it. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=conversationiu0.jpg) Steve asks what I think of him, I tell him I'm going to only reply in the thread etc, then he asks *me* if *I* think I have something to hide? Why does he not question me publically? :/ I think it is likely that Steve is mafia. His first action as mayor was to lynch someone just for disagreeing with him (wtf) and voting for me instead; this person was quite rational and seemed to put thought into his posts, which is more than I can say for most. He's attempting to rule the town through fear with a 'no questioning my authority!' approach, which stifles discussion and is a blatant attempt to shield himself from the rightful suspicion that should fall on his lap. | ||
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On February 13 2008 14:22 JeeJee wrote: mafia doesn't get ahead by unreasonable things either. mafia gets ahead by putting up a reasonable front while conducting murder operations on the backend ;-) here's some more random accusations based on day one clues i have a precise list somewhere, but i'll do these from memory evan, there was something about joy, and his name stars with a phonetic e so depending on how you view iaagh... hotzhot, who else would talk down to his mafia members? he thinks he's such a hotshot doesn't he? more more more! this is fun  asdf YES the mafiso want to appear to be reasonable. NO that does NOT make being reasonable a sign that points to being mafia. What, we're all supposed to be unreasonable blind idiots? What are you actually implying here? I mean... you do think townies should be reasonable, right? Right. If you don't, well, there's something wrong with you. Random accusations are inferior to directed suspicion and questioning. All randomly accusing people begets is more random accusations, followed by this "I'm not mafia! You're attacking me- you must be mafia!" crap. | ||
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1) If you're not mafia, then you lead both citizens to accuse you, and it becomes possible for the actual mafia to use you as a scapegoat. You basically serve yourself up on a platter. 2) This actually sets a bad precedent, where this excuse becomes somewhat legitimate. For instance, if a mafia slips up, he can then argue that he likewise took a rash action to see 'who opposed and who didn't oppose me'. Also, you may have slipped up by saying 'if only the mafia know i'm in the mafia'. You meant 'not' in the mafia. These little tells may seem inconsequential. However, as I've said before, it's far more likely an actual mafioso makes a 'small' mistake like that than a townie. So. Yeah. I can understand, however, that a townie may think this is a strong opening strategy, and this has actually gone some way in lessening my suspicion. I wouldn't accept this out of someone who had claimed to play mafia in the past, for instance. | ||
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the townies still have no idea whether or not i'm in the mafia, but the mafia know for sure. Killing me is a no-win situation if you don't know for sure whether or not i'm a mobster. however, killing other mob members benefits you no matter what What? We don't know for sure whether or not you're a mobster. However, that does not make killing you a no-win situation, because you may still be one. And, as usual, this is a position that can be attributed to any lynch ever pretty much (we're not SURE he's mafia. We're virtually never going to be 100% sure.) <-> A lot of people, particularly the accused, say "But if you kill me and I'm NOT mafia, then you look like a moron. I would put it to you that it's the accused who have done stupid things that make them look like mafia. In part, they are responsible for their own image. Do not let people saying 'but if you lynch me, you might die/look like an idiot/the sky might fall on you' and arguments such as those dissuade you. These are not rebuttals, but appeals to pride and fear. | ||
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<-> Dr. Dragoon... seriously. How can I come to any conclusion but 'one of Dragoon and Shallow is scum'? If you flip town, I fully intend to persue Shallow. But... well. Falcynn Said Not entirely true, Shallows picture depicted you as being careless and being a bit foolish. So by trying to act like an oaf after Shallows post, many people probably began to suspect that there's a good chance that you really did send the PM. I actually do believe that people would've jumped on the bandwagon and accused you anyways, but if you would've tried to be more casual you might've had a better chance of getting away. That puts it best, really, as to why I think you're a better bet than Shallow. Man, think about how you'd react if it was someone else in that PM box. Someone you didn't know for sure was an alignment either way. I would have had a lot more respect for your arguments if they weren't punctuated with insults. | ||
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On February 13 2008 16:42 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: you don't need to know when i'll use the double lynches rest assured i'll use them appropriately to accomplish my own goals, but as long as you don't know what those goals are i'm unkillable the only people who do know for sure what those goals are, are mafia Wait. Your goals are secret. Townies do not know your goals. However, the mafia does. Uh, the only reason the mafia would know what your goals are and townies wouldn't would be.. because.. you.. are.. mafia and colluding with them. Also, should your goals not be the same as everyone elses, i.e. *killing scum*? 'Unkillable' my ass, I'm voting for you as soon as day breaks. It's not worth leaving you in a position of power if you're going to rely entirely on your rank to keep you above the rope, and then rely on voodoo bullshit 'secret' plans to supposedly out the mafia. | ||
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I'll wait and see for now, I guess; I want to find out who dies overnight before rattling off other thoughts on the thread. I admit I'm being a bit overzealous on the 'don't keep secrets' front, apologies for that, there are good reasons to at times, even for town. | ||
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However, if I think he is acting in a scummy fashion, I will call him out on it. It's not like I haven't had reasons to be suspicious. I think everyone ignores the fact that I have reasons to act the way I do, and just goes 'oh no Tracil is trying to get people lynched'. I'm making educated guesses. Please try to understand. We should all understand that we will never be totally sure whether or not someone is mafia barring detectives finding something out (which, by the by, we cannot count or rely on actually happening.) Despite that, I am not going to make arguments and clarify each and every one with 'but I might be wrong' or any of that. When I make assertations, it's because I believe them, and I'm trying to get other people to understand why. | ||
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What do you suggest? Staying silent? How does that help town? Is it not better to speak and be heard, and let your actions and voice prove your alignment? We learn more about people by two things in this game; the clues the mod drops (which are unreliable), and what they *say*. If we are passive- and in fact, if passivity is encouraged- it becomes very difficult to distinguish one townie from another. We'll wind up having no basis for lynches at all in future days. It's better for us to get started now. I'd like to hear why you think laying low is a superior option; really, when you get down to it, mafia is a game of discussion and debate. Without that debate, what do we have? | ||
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If Shallow fesses up and says that the picture actually WAS a joke, I'll reconsider my position. Fair is fair. | ||
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None of my opinions are changing, but my frustration is shooting through the roof. Anyway people don't need to worry about me dying one way or the other, pardoner gets bodyguard protection like the mayor. So. Yeah. | ||
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Shallow Bay's mood indicator is a guy wearing sunglasses! You know who else wears sunglasses? MAFIOSO </joke> | ||
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Chuiu made the right call here.. but... argh. >_< | ||
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One was from *GeneralStan*, of all people, telling me that a *third* faction is arising in our midst. It supposedly consists of both mafia and town, and is planning to wipe out everyone else and claim a victory for this third faction. Psst guys, if that's true, then the rules of the game don't suddenly change because you say they do, this game is a binary thing and there are only two sides, only one of which can actually win. Also, breaking the game in this fashion is... really lame for anyone who's trying to play it as intended. It's like playing chess and promoting your pawn to a battleship or some shit, or making up a new element in rock/paper/scissors that beats the other three. However, I am inclined to believe that this is some kind of lame prank, and am disregarding it for the time being. <-> The other messages involved people claiming their roles and making arguments that are better suited for public discussion. Suffice to say the following in response to the latter; If a mod bans you for taking action or a stance against him in this game, that's very very gay of him and he shall be deemed Unworthy Of His Power. Other thing was a guy roleclaiming bodyguard. I'm not revealing who at this stage (if he's telling the truth, I don't wanna set him up as a target), but I will reply publically that you have to understand that I *cannot* trust such a claim just by itself; I'll treat you the same way I treat everyone else, and judge you by your actions. Later on in the game, as it draws to a close, I may call for roleclaims in general as a way of confirming townies to be townies; this tactic, however, is better suited for when the mafia have less kills and we only need a few successful lynches to win, OR we are only one or two lynches away from losing outright. Early on it won't work so well (the mafia will just kill everyone who claims. And in either case, they can fake-claim roles themselves.) | ||
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SO, anyone for a round of starcraft?! </joke, you'd beat me I suck> | ||
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However, if I develop a reason to be suspicious of him in the future, I know for sure that if he is a bodyguard, Fakesteve would already know. Thus, fakesteve will be able to show to me whether or not this person was lying to me or not. I presently have no reason to be suspicious of this guy (except for him, well, PMing me when I have said not to PM me), and thus no reason to ask steve to do this. | ||
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I also believe FakeSteve should declare a double lynch. The town deciding on more kills is good, and gives us a chance to catch up to the mafia, both in terms of numbers and in terms of information. | ||
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I advocated declaring double lynches whenever possible in my election run, and my stance there hasn't changed. | ||
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Or, basically- if he is a townie, he should try to find and detail strong cases on other people rather than calling town a pack of idiots. You realise that even if you die and you're a townie, if town wins, you also win? If you've already come up with cases in the game, set them out again, because the thread is huge and the context of today is different than the context of yesterday, and also people are going to forget. Try to narrow your focus to just one or two other people rather than provide a broad range of people who might be mafia. Remember, if you ARE a townie, *absolutely anyone is a better person to get lynched than you* from your perspective (there's a chance THEY are mafia, and if you know yourself to be town, then yourself getting lynched has a 0% chance of being a good move for town.) Also keep in mind that other people DON'T know your alignment, CAN'T know your alignment for sure, and you have to argue to convince *them*, not yourself. i.e. "I'm a townie!!!!111" isn't gonna convince anyone. <-> Likewise, Wurm, if you actually think Dr. Dragoon isn't a worthy lynch target and you have someone you think is *better*, point it out. Don't just go with the flow if you disagree with it. Nobody should try to target you *just* for speaking against the crowd (it depends on the content, naturally. But if your thoughts have merit...) | ||
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That whole post smacks of self-preservation at the expense of town's chances of winning. If any townies follow this example, we're fucked. | ||
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That's so fucking retarded and petty. People playing like this is the lamest thing you can do. It's not like you twist your ankle playing a game of soccer and proceed to punch every other player on your team in the nuts, and then give the other team performance-enhancing drugs just because you won't be kicking any goals, to provide an exaggerated analogy. I can understand annoyance, but just stabbing Town in the face because you don't get your way is the ultimate lameness. | ||
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<-> I changed my mind on clues after a bit; it's kind of dumb of me to just ignore them. By the same token, I won't be putting much faith in them. Still. I went through both posts with one thing in mind; we're looking for members of the mafia. Therefore, rather than look at random stuff like 'it's valentines day soon' and connect it to scum, I decided to pay attention to the traits and actions demonstrated by the mafioso as they go about their business. Here we go. I'm not actually going out of my way to link these to particular people- but I did want to sort out what I thought *could* be actual clues on identity from the text. Any of these could be a red herring etc. A lot of these have been mentioned before, I know. I'll post updates periodically if people uncover new things, and certainly I'll try to get one out after each clue post. day 1 -One Missed a kick due to muddy boots, lost balance. (clumsy, misses) -One has no patience for immaturity -One stabs people, Chuiu was a thorn in his side. -"You're never going to be trusted iaaaagh"- iaaaagh possible reference to name? -DapperDan was a spy amongst them (friends with a member of the mafia?) -One used Dan's own gun against him, was filled with blanks -Pushed Dan from shadows (stealthy bastard) -'That was low, even for you' , 'all is fair' (one mafioso has no qualms about his methods) -One mafioso took a bow. (paying respects; theatrical bent) day 2 -mahini was held down with great strength (strong dude, obviously) -A serum was used on him (doctor/scientist/experimental guy) -Mafia seem to be looking for a test subject of some kind -Phone lines were cut -killer of evan had the most precise control; his throat was slit -one man trapped krohm in a sleeping bag and dropped him out a window (one guy has a weird way of killing people o-o) -betaben was woken up before his death; he was killed by his head being shoved into a pot of boiling water (one mafioso is a sadist) -artofmagic was sliced in two; some kind of powerful weapon was involved (this implies a large blade of some kind) -another mafioso used a townies own gun against him (kara's) (a thief, perhaps?) | ||
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Let's see. Nightmare claimed to trust me at one point, and yet he had a vote on SMB for mayor- one he didn't change even after this statement. Nightmare also seems to advocate passive play in general; he encouraged Dragoon to 'lay low' when the heat was on him (this is suboptimal; when the heat is on you, that is the moment to really get talkative) and generally adopted a 'wait and see' approach with regard to how we determine lynch; basically, he said we should 'wait for more clues' rather than try to lynch mafia right now. Granted, this was day 1, when we *couldn't* lynch... but the phrasing of his posts didn't seem to indicate that. Finally, he encouraged paramedics to go hit Live2Win. I said way earlier that we SHOULDN'T do this, and there are good reasons! 1) If a paramedic is protecting one of the mafia, their ability is actually useless; ergo, even though it may not actually be, it can *seem* scummy to encourage doc protection on specific targets. 2) Paramedics are supposed to keep people alive, which isn't going to happen if *the mafia know who the paramedics are targeting and thus hit other people.* So, yeah. NightMare doesn't look that great. He's posted depressingly little... like so many others, however. Got any response, NightMare? I'm pretty miffed that you claimed to trust me but kept voting for SMB; this is a case of actions not lining up with words. Why'd you not vote for me? | ||
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Although I have to admit I was very sold on Dragoon. Nightmare, not nearly so much (I was actually surprised night came 'round before I got home today, so I never did vote for a second target. Was hoping to have a bit more time to think on it.) So yeah. Townies, don't be selfish, y'know, like that. If anything, all it does is draw *more* votes. It's a team game. etc. etc. | ||
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Besides, no harm in reiterating. | ||
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I will say this, though; the most logical play at the moment is to lynch Shallow. I kinda hope that if that message WAS actually sent by Dragoon, he'd have said so before he got lynched. If he didn't, well. That's going to suck for us. | ||
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Romance_us: People who talk are likely mafia to you? This makes logical sense? It makes more logical sense to me that people who don't talk are more likely to be mafia, especially when they literally *do nothing for all of day 2* except vote Dr. Dragoon without reasoning (probably because he was the the most obvious lynch candidate at the time) and then swoop in in the aftermath to lay suspicion on the mayor, the pardoner, and anyone who 'talks lots' as if that's actually a bad thing. Or, in other words, people who hang around until something goes wrong, and then jump in to play the blame game from the safe position of a non-participant. Will be going through day 2 in more detail once day hits. | ||
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If x is not scum, then mafia can, you know, kill you at night and rely on your last words to get x lynched. So. Yeah. Can't take 'em seriously. | ||
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Shallow was a pretty smooth operator- if he hadn't pulled that stunt early game I seriously doubt I would have been glaring at him at all. To respond to Caller... Please READ MY POSTS. I WILL NOT enter correspondance via PM and said that already. I can confirm that he sent it and actually intended to reveal this post after day broke; you've done it for me. I've yelled about receiving PMs before. I will continue to do so. I find them inherently scummy; if you're mafia and in a PM conversation where everything is secret, you can potentially just kill the guy off before he can spill what you've said to everyone else. Frankly, I find it way more scummy that you send me a PM, then set up this ridiculous argument that "Tracil didn't reply to me, ergo he's kinda scummy!" You haven't even read my posts if you think this is valid in the slightest. As far as the Live2Win thing goes, well. I don't know if he's mafia or not, but in general, him defending me isn't a tell either way *unless* he flips scum. I didn't really associate defending me with being scummy... although it wouldn't be a bad position for scum to take, I suppose. Eh, I guess I'm naturally a bit biased. <-> SUSPICIOUS DUDES. 1) Caller. He said "I am mafia!" earlier. That's really stupid. He's set up this PM thing about how me not replying to it apparently looks bad because I'm the type to discuss things... despite having already said that I don't want PMs and have generally reported them in the past (I intended to report this during daytime.) I don't really know about his case in Live2Win, as although it seems kinda wonky, Live2Win has done a couple things that stand out to me as well. Obligatory Clue: He also has 'mud' in his profile quote, and I remember one mafioso having muddy boots way back! Coincidence?! For now, I vote for Caller. Headsup, people, since we can change our votes there is actually no shame in voting fairly early. He also called for paramedics to protect him- DON'T DO THAT. Let them make up their own frigging minds. 2) People who seem to post as little as possible; i.e. those who only make token gestures and a small effort, and then go on to only state the bleedingly obvious. That's... a lot of people. So I can't REALLY be suspicious on these grounds alone, especially with the size of the game. General hint for late-game when there are less people- look at the guys who are lagging behind in conversation and not posting as much as others when discussion is going full-tilt. 3) FakeSteve. FakeSteve is mayor, he should be talking lots. But he's not! He's posting every now and again and seems to be exercising his mayoral powers as demanded, which is good. But... his lack of any kind of detective work of his own unsettles me greatly. I want to know what he thinks about recent events. I don't want to see him say crap like 'whether or not I'm town or scum is inconsequential, I'm not going to die.' 4) wurm. Wurm said at one point "Everyone is voting to lynch Dr. Dragoon again instead of analyzing the clues", but this post was *right after* a short debate on whether or not one of the clues did, in fact, point to Dr. Dragoon, so... this seemed a bit odd to me. However he does seem to be making large posts, which is pretty cool. 5) MasterofChaos: Isn't actually playing, but I hope he stops pretending. 6) clazziquai: Did this guy say *anything* except to tell Dr. Dragoon to die? 7) Falcynn reacted rather sharply when someone pointed out a clue that seemed to point to him; to be fair, other people were likewise treating it as remarkably solid. I just... didn't really think it was a big deal, but he seemed to overreact a bit. Not too sure here. Here's some quote. On February 17 2008 05:03 Falcynn wrote: Ok, I feel I should defend myself before a crapload of accusations start pouring in. 1. An animal hunted or caught for food; quarry. 2. One that is defenseless, especially in the face of attack; a victim. 3. The act or practice of preying. Ok...so that didn't help, and I can't really understand Chuiu's choice of words in wanting to write prey instead of victim. However you said another clue refering to prey, and the only one I can think of that was mentioned was that whole "not a mouse was stirring" bit in day 1. That's usually a very common line to imply that a whole town/area/house/whatever is completely silent. So if you believe that Chuiu's choice of words would lead to me then there's really nothing I can argue about that since I have the only username in this game that has anything to do with hunting (except maybe to_miss_the_mark, but then that wouldn't make sense). However there isn't "another" clue referring to me. damn it...I'm seriously not thinking straight right now. <-> I want to double lynch again, yada yada yada. <-> General game note. As the quantity of people alive winds down and the amount of mafia kills left drops, there's one kind of roleclaim that could be very useful- that is, elders. Elders have the power to double vote and are always town. By demonstrating their ability to cast multiple votes, they can effectively prove their townhood. Don't do this YET- you'll just get killed at night most likely- but LATER, perhaps when mafia only have 4-5 kills or so. | ||
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The PM I didn't actually see until after night broke; either I didn't check between when you sent it and then, or I just didn't notice that I'd receieved it. I have not been so cool with PMs; my original intent was to reveal them on the spot, but since I received one claiming to be a bodyguard, I wanted to be a bit more cagey about who was sending me what. I certainly didn't want to reveal it during night, though, where town can't really do anything about it and mafia could use the opportunity to perhaps kill you and sow discord throughout town; basically, as discussion material, I felt it was better saved until the day broke again. So. My play hasn't been perfect. However, I disagree with the contention that, if Live2Win is scum, it implicates me. I can see the reasoning. But the points Live2Win stands out to me on are how his actions don't match up there; early in day 1 he was against me, trying to imply that my statements on how the game should be played are wrong/we should be cautious of Tracil. That kinda doubt-spreading sentiment. He retracted that; I assumed he'd been convinced. The thing that still bugs me to the present is how he kept voting for SoMuchBetter- a *null* factor. He'd done pretty much nothing but say 'vote me!' In that I felt he was no better than FakeSteve. So I was surprised when Live2Win did not vote for me, but kept his vote where it was. An explanation was offered and it's... tenuous, I'll grant. His play since day 1, though, has seemed pretty solid. Although.. ugh, now all these little things keep bugging me. For instance, when Dr. Dragoon was lynched, it felt pretty obvious that Shallow was likely scum, yet Live2Win seemed to react with great surprise upon today's dawn. Why? Genuine? I kinda lean towards it being faked, and yet, like I said, it's tenuous. So. I'm not entirely critical of you for going after Live2Win. I just don't really think it'd point to me were he to flip scum. | ||
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I don't think we ever really 'forgot' about Shallow; it just seems like Dr. Dragoon was way more likely to be scum than him. I, at least, would certainly have been voting for him today had he not been killed already. I think a lot of other people would have done the same. | ||
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To the people who think Mafia would rather not keep a low profile: I disagree. Sure, it's *optimal* play for the mafia to discuss things and look like pleasant, rational townies will misdirecting all the lynches. But it's *probable* play for the mafia to be relatively quiet, especially if they can get away with it. Lots of people aren't really talking and there's no way to differentiate a quiet townie from a quiet mafioso. <-> Although to be honest? At the moment I'd rather vote for the people who are just tagging on to the Live2Win/Caller bandwagons without any rationale. Someone has suggested that 'it's probably one of live2win/caller/tracil is scum!' and while this *could* be true it isn't *necessarily* true. Just because two people argue doesn't mean either of them is scum. Who hasn't really said anything on either case today, yet has a vote out there? Amber[Light]. NotSorry (asdf if you're town it's not a good idea to lynch you just because you're wrong once, but it would be a good idea to lynch you if you don't say anything else -_-) Folca <-> Live2Win is absolutely right here- Live2Win said... People are hopping on the lynch train simply because they don't feel like looking into the clues and coming to a conclusion themselves. They scan over someone else's conclusion, half-agree with it and lynch whoever that person lynch. and, well. This isn't good. You should really always know *why* you're voting for someone, and say so- even if you're following someone elses opinion. At the moment, though? Caller has, for the most part, seemed.. better. Mrf. I no longer want to vote for Caller, because I'm voting for... NotSorry! Out of the three I listed, more clues from the descriptive text point to him, and he hasn't really engaged in discussion. The same could be said for a lot of people. But I'm going to take a stand against silence. <-> DOUBLE LYNCH WOULD BE AWESOME ANYTIME NOW. | ||
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How DO you expect people to react to it? :/ You're ignoring the fourth possible scenario, which is that all the major players in this argument are townies tripping over themselves. I find that a rather bizzare thing to overlook, if you're in the business of listing possibilities. The fact is that you're not a neutral observer and you just did a rather poor job of putting yourself in their shoes. <-> Don't think too hard about why you're not dead, people. It literally means nothing. Sure, they could be leaving you alive because your opinion is wrong. Or maybe it's right, and they're trying to trick you and everyone else into thinking it's wrong! Or..so on and so forth. It's not even worth drawing attention to. By extension, don't act as if paramedic protection is or is not going to apply to you, or should have applied to you, and that because you think it MIGHT have, that's some kind of evidence. I'm looking at you, Live2Win. | ||
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Don't call for paramedics. | ||
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Part of my general game theory is that people who talk often and frequently are generally more likely to be town than scum, and if they ARE scum, it'll come out in what they say. Conversly, people who are silent are awful for town. So... I'm still pretty suspicious of Caller, and actually his latest posts look kinda bad. But I think it would be better if we took some time to yell at people not talking at all. | ||
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In light of that, the obvious play for anyone with a rational mindset is to attack Shallow. I don't think going after him on that note is a tell in either direction, because it wouldn't take much for the mafia to realise that. So, yeah, I agree with you here. | ||
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That takes suspicion off him for now. I still fucking hate FakeSteve's attitude, though. Sure, we shouldn't lynch Caller. Who should we lynch? Do you have any alternatives? No, just a pointless insult. You didn't even try to argue in his favour *at all* from what I remember, which you should have been doing if you knew he was a bodyguard early on! What the fuck, man? I hate the fact that the only reason you're useful to town is by the merits of a position you don't even deserve. Paramedics, use your freaking discretion. It'd be pretty dumb if all of you wound up protecting the guy. Still voting for NotSorry until he posts... some kind of opinion. FakeSteve looks absolutely horrible to me at the moment. If he wasn't mayor and at least have the *potential* to be useful by virtue of role, he'd almost certainly have my vote. <-> @Emp: Do you mean why I think Caller looks bad? Eh, I explained it earlier. With regard to the couple of posts I mentioned, it's because he seemed to ignore a possibility (that the argument between me, Live2Win and himself could have been a towniefight.) He claimed that was filed under 'the mafia are framing me', but... that seemed like a totally different angle. | ||
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I don't really know where you've pulled this stuff from. And I've already said why actually pardoning people is a bad idea pretty much all the time. Maybe you'd like to tell me what circumstances it might be a good idea in, hmm? | ||
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<-> When I talk in this game, it is, in fact, generally about who I find suspicious or would like to see lynched when it's not about how I think the game should be played. It should be no wonder that you see me accusing people and the like and almost nothing else. It's not like we're here to discuss cake. | ||
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Speaking of picking things out, 'not wanting to post anything because he'll pick it apart' will do for now. That's a lame attitude to take. I would have expected more conviction from our mayor. Then again, saying nothing substantial seems to be his stock in trade. After all, it got him elected. | ||
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I, myself, will not be voting for Live2Win yet. But I'm curious; Live2Win, who did you protect on night 2? | ||
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I vote for Fakesteve. It takes a special kind of ignorance to play the game the way he's playing it. I'm the one opposing you? You haven't done *anything* to oppose... except, you know, act as if the entire way I'm playing is bad. And insult me. And everyone. Right. Then act as if I can somehow immediately just KNOW for sure whether someone is innocent or not. He doesn't do ANYTHING but yell at people "You can't do this!" "You're stupid!" "Vote for me or there'll be consequences!" There are never REASONS. Except, you know, he's in a position of power and feels like he should be able to throw his weight around. <-> I don't know what I'd do if me and fakesteve voted for the same guy and he would've been pushed ahead by the fakesteve vote. It'd depend how strongly I thought he was scum as compared to the other candidates for lynch. I CAN say that in general, I would prefer to lynch *anyone* than to lynch *nobody*. However, the point is probably moot. | ||
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<-> Not so compelling when it's someone else who says it, I'll bet. lrn2argue plz | ||
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I guess it would be too much to ask for you to post examples? I haven't edited any of my posts, so my 'nonsense', as it were, should still be there. I can't find it myself, as I think everything I've posted so far has, well, made sense. | ||
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People are suddenly fine with pointing to how 'oh look, Tracil said something and lots of people are voting the way he does- MAFIA?!' but please try to remember that Fakesteve said next to nothing on day 1 and still got elected mayor just because he, well, asked for it. I'm through with people using double standards. Please stop abstaining from voting. Otherwise, as someone pointed out, the mafia will vote for you and control the lynch. Hell, all of them won't even need to do it, a bunch of them could probably abstain as well, take no position on the matter, and basically hide. And it'll be effective, too. FakeSteve sounds like a broken record, because all he does is go 'you guys are wrong, and stupid, and town is doomed'. He keeps saying we've all been stupid for voting for innocents... but... HE NEVER PROVIDES ALTERNATIVE TARGETS. He acts as if everyone already KNOWS who the mafia is and that we're all deliberately not voting for them out of spite, or because we don't realise we have to kill mafia to win, or some shit like that. I can't tolerate his attitude. He's utterly refused to answer my questions or justify his actions to me, instead constantly saying shit like "I'm not going to spend the whole game justifying my actions to Tracil, that's no fun." WTF? This whole game is what amounts to a giant interrogation! Silence is tantamount to admitting you did it. There are no miranda rights. Also, I may as well point out to everyone that if people play games of mafia for the lulz and stuff like that, scum will win like 100% of the time. The likelyhood of town winning is, like, directly proportional to how seriously town takes the game. He's also acting EXACTLY like Dr. Dragoon with this- Fakesteve said: though it goes against the spirit of the game i would much rather watch all of you fail just to see how you deal with it @Zapling: No, having a mafia mayor isn't really good. He won't exercise his double-lynch power, for instance, unless he's sure both candidates are town. So actually he's dangerous and harmful. He's already got away with not declaring it today. And.. oh, please. Zapling said:The reasons you people are listing for voting for Fakesteve don't makes sense within the game. You say he does nothing but calls us all idiots. So what? Call me an idiot all you want, it does not affect the game. Once you start pushing you political agendas on me and start influencing the votes of other people, then I start to get mad. That is what I think Tracil is doing here. What? The ONLY 'political' agenda I have is... killing scum. And now I'm apparently not allowed to argue with people and try to convince them to vote the way I think they should? What? Sorry, what's the game we're playing again? I don't think it's roulette or the lottery or any of that shit. Arguments are all I have. | ||
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Why? It's not acceptable. | ||
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It started with him going "NOOOOOOOOOOO" and ended with him being stupidly standoffish and insulting everyone. Instead of immediately saying "Wait, I didn't PM that, Shallow is lying!" Hell, he even acted as if Shallow *might* be telling the truth half the time! If that passes for a credible defence, then town is certainly fucked. | ||
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Besides, where were you in day 2? You seemed perfectly content to shut up and do nothing, even while town was apparently too stupid to find it's own ass? Hindsight is 20/20, but you're as stupid as the rest of us apparently are, given that you didn't do anything to stop it. I keep asking you to explain yourself, and you keep refusing. <-> We don't elect a new mayor. That question has been asked a million times... | ||
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Sorry, I should make it clear that I'm not voting for NotSorry right now. | ||
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I don't have any pro-town argument from him. The thread is kinda huge, but he basically did nothing but make a token effort to campaign for mayor, and then vanished, right? NotSorry has posted a few times. Not much content, but he has. Going after a lurker is fine too. SoMuchBetter, post your thoughts on the game to avoid getting my vote in some detail, please. <-> If this is actually going to be a double lynch day, Steve better hurry up and declare it. | ||
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Hate all of you who don't actually discuss things. Hate so much. <-> Amber[Light], you can't state with absolute certainty that you know I'm town, unless you're scum. Sigh. Hate me taking this stance as well. HotZhot, Steve ISN'T coinciding with town's decisions. Him having extra votes is immaterial and not really a benefit for town, and in fact it's *harmful* if he's scum. What more do you want? | ||
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I am voting for SoMuchBetter, then, and am not voting for FakeSteve now because he used his double lynch, which means he may do so again in the future.. Instead, I am voting for NotSorry. Why on SoMuchBetter: He ran for mayor and has basically vanished since; I can't remember if he's done *anything*; I don't think he's even voted during this run. I wonder if he's even checking the thread. Lurking is horrible. Why on NotSorry: He's trying to hint at how town fails to read clues by arguing to lynch... himself? I find that really bizzare. I don't like it much when people try to be ironic or sarcastic in their explanations like that. I may yet change my votes but I have to dash out for the moment. I agree with not lynching FakeSteve if he's declaring double lynch, because I believe double lynches help town in general (so, yeah, in this light, even if he IS scum, his powers are being used in a pro-town way.) | ||
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On February 23 2008 12:04 JeeJee wrote: that has got to be the most retarded thing i've read you're assuming we only lynch townies and while the facts are on your side for now (  ) i am hoping that will change.edit: just to clarify, it's not FS's fault we voted for townies edit#2: just to make your point further, why lynch at all? we don't have to. 0 townies better than 1 right? JeeJee is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Town MUST LYNCH and arguing to 'lynch less than we can' is foolishness. Town can't win without lynches at all. If Town lynches nothing but townies and loses the game, the way to fix it in future games is *not* to 'lynch nobody'. So. Yeah. Re: EmeraldSparks: Actually, there's one more reason to run for mayor, which is that you're running because you're a townie and you don't want mafia to get it. That was part of why I ran (although putting that into your campaign is pointless), with the other part thinking that I would make a good mayor. I would.. agree from an objective standpoint that my power is less useful than FakeSteves. I guess. I don't really think I've been scummy, like, at all. See next paragraph. I disagree heavily with the concept that if Steve is town, I am likely mafia. I can point again and again to actual, *real* flaws in Steve's play. People have trouble doing the same to me, as evidenced by arguments that say "Tracil is likely to be scum BECAUSE scum would want to run for mayor" or "He's scum if x is town"- these aren't targeting my actual play. I do NOT want to hit Steve while he's using his powers (as they are 100% protown) but I don't really trust him, let me make that clear. SoMuchBetter is not bringing things up because he's scared of being hit at night. I think that's a load of crap and not a valid excuse at all. If every townie was too scared to talk and try and argue things, town would have no chance whatsoever. | ||
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You've got to realise that it's not whether someone votes or criticizes someone else that makes them look bad; it's how they do and their reasons therein. | ||
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People, let's not vote for FakeSteve if he's using his double lynch. Seriously. | ||
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CDRDude has looked pretty good to me for most of the game, though. | ||
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I DO NOT INHERIT THE MAYORAL POSITION IF STEVE DIES. | ||
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Scum could be doing nothing and we wouldn't even know, because the same goes for most townies. <-> When day hits tomorrow I will be doing a fairly sizable post and looking at the previous vote records for patterns. I have nothing else to say during night, and feel it would be wiser to keep my suspicions to myself until the numbers have whittled down a bit. | ||
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I didn't want to go back on my word either. I felt that either way, people would then go 'Tracil is suspicious!' so I decided to stick to my guns. | ||
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On February 23 2008 17:53 imDerek wrote: great, you guys lynched the mayor now we don't have a mayor Sheer brilliance. | ||
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I've made no claims to being a brilliant detective. I've pointed out- repeatedly- that town needs to do a lot of things it hasn't really been doing to get anywhere. It's moronic to lay the current state of the game entirely at my feet. <-> I did some basic math. With 39 townies left, even assuming the mafia kill just 3 people per day, it'll take 13 days for them to kill the entire town- and that's not counting more mislynches or misfired vig kills, the EXTRA mafia kills, and the fact that the mafia only need to outnumber town... well. It's not counting paramedics or veterans either, but I think that's only going to be delaying the inevitable. My enthusiasm for this game has hit an all-time low. | ||
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I'm still here! I just don't have anything to add for the moment. | ||
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Anyway let's see. If the detective list can be trusted, then let's consider that one of the votes was an Elder- and it's highly likely that the elders are stacking their votes. Therefore, only 10 people total lynched the mayor, so only 9 of them are townies. We should consider this, yes- but a 1/10 chance to lynch someone is less good odds than a 13/46, so we have to consider beyond that. I suggest ignoring that group of people for the time being as vote candidates, because then our odds get reduced to a 12/36(1/3!) chance- better all around. This is all assuming the detective is not lying, but at this point in the game, town is pretty boned without a miracle, so that's a chance I'm willing to take. Mostly reiteration of what the detective said, I think. Anyhow. dinmsab has the idea that townies with roles should submit information to a singular 'head' who is a proven townie. An Elder could fit that criteria. They possess a demonstratable power that can be used to confirm them as town- bascially, all they have to do is show they control two votes. I could support this, and do. *You can trust an Elder*- we just need one to speak up for the time being and be willing to risk themselves. ONLY ONE Elder should do this at a time. It is *too much* of a risk to out all our remaining power roles to a potential mafia. An Elder is our only chance. Bodyguards can't be mafia, din. <-> I guess I'm mostly inherently suspicious of people who don't qualify their votes when they change them. Unfortunately that's nearly everyone, and they tend to come out in droves. I tried to analyze voting patterns, and... the lists just stared at me, and I stared back, and I couldn't come to any strong conclusions. The idea that only one mafia member was voting for Fakesteve baffles me, I've got to say. Bah, I'm having serious trouble just keeping my enthusiasm for this game high. I'm gonna come back tomorrow, I can't face looking through all these pages at the moment. Repeated failure has taken it's toll on me. | ||
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I realised that no matter if I pardon'd him or not, some people would assume it to be a tell of mine. So I felt I was caught between two extremes. In such a position, I felt it wiser to stick to my word. | ||
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Did you guys totally ignore my absolutely foolproof plan for locating a confirmed townie to tell all of this to? I'll go over it again- an Elder can confirm he has two votes by demonstrating his power to.. vote twice. We then ask for a votecount update from Chuiu, and hey, presto- we find out if he's lying or not. | ||
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Ah, hell, I'll put 2 and 2 together for everyone. Again. An elder can doublevote, which is not a power that scum can duplicate. Doublevotes are evident from the votecount. By *claiming ahead of time* what his votes are going to be and then backing them up, an elder can prove his legitimacy- his townhood. We then know he can be trusted. He can then get everyone to PM him their roles and actions and conclusions and stuff, and can then perhaps arrange them to his liking. We'll know he's town, so we can trust him. He doesn't need to disclose his overall plan to each and every power role. If he gets more power roles than he should, then he can use his discretion on who to call out in public. | ||
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Keep in mind that the initial plan dnimsab presented was *critically flawed* and involved a random response. Now, the plan itself wasn't bad... after I fixed it, but it would still be weird to tell anyone but HotZhot about this. Mang. I'm not saying it's a scumtell, but I am trying to get people to be careful. | ||
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But, well, whatever, it still stands that he's said like nothing all day and for most of the game, at that. | ||
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Weird. | ||
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So the one case I don't think about, like, at all turns out to be the right one. I SEE. I uh yeah. What. | ||
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I really should have been pressing for this earlier, but so many people hadn't been posting much. The clue system, even if I totally hate it, can help us sort out which lurkers to actually lynch. | ||
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The fact that it worked out anyway doesn't stop me giving CDR a weird look for taking that interpretation, as it was entirely his own. o-O | ||
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In light of this, I have... nothing to say until day breaks. Funny, that. | ||
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I'm willing to respond to any questions put to me, but I'm keeping my thoughts to myself. There is a reason, never fear. Other people should talk, especially if they fear death. | ||
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"Live2Win should've publically announced his paramedic protection!" yeah actually no he shouldn't. He did PM me, but I assumed he was just telling me his target for... some reason rather than sending it to the wrong person. Mrf. Don't wanna vote for him in that light. | ||
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It's possible that Southlight is scum. But it's hardly a certainty. I am also confused as to why Unoriginal is to be lynched, so I'd like to hear someone elaborate on that for me. | ||
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I dunno, though, I don't really believe genuine scum would say something like that *after* the lynch had already been decided. But in tl.net mafia, everything I know is wrong, so yeah! This is pretty weak by itself, still. | ||
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So there are three possibilites for how the vigilantes died simultaneously. 1: Pure random chance/Scum being good guessers. This isn't impossible, actually. Remember that vigilantes leave clues when they kill, too? Scum obviously know who they killed and who they didn't, so they'd know what to look for. But since clues are nebulous... in theory... argh I don't know about clues anymore. 2: They PM'd someone claiming to be a doc, or some other role, and that person was actually lying. Score! They'd have had to have done it only during the last day, really, or they'd have died earlier. 3: The Elder we gave all the information to is a lying double-crossing bastard and the whole 'there are three sides' thing from way back is actually true. I am inclined to discount this, because even if it's true and we accept it as true, people playing like that basically means town is screwed. | ||
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Live2Win said... I am giving Falcynn the benefit of the doubt. He has come to both Tracil (who I believe to be innocent) and my defense a few times. This leads me to believe Falcynn is safe, because if he was mafia, he would add to the flame and try to get either me or Tracil lynched. Instead he picked out clues that lead to lynching a mafia. This is not actually much of a tell at this point. It would behoove scum, in general, to split their public opinion; therefore I think it is all but certain that some of them have supported me or you in the past. I'll grant, however, that picking out clues that lead to getting mafia lynched is more a town thing than anything. | ||
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10 mafia alive, 23 townies alive. Let's say scum kill three people each night, and town somehow perfectly gets scum each lynch. 7 nights later, 7 scum have died and 21 townies have died. 3 mafia alive, 2 townies alive. Scum win. So yeah, I just don't really care anymore, I guess. Only hero paramedics can save town, which actually requires them to be heroes and save people every night, because scum actually have *5* kills a night and I've assumed they'll only kill three people each night, even for the nights they otherwise wouldn't. And town has to be heroic and pull a lynch out every day. <-> I don't believe Live2Win is scum. He just doesn't act very scummy. For someone who hasn't played mafia before, he's not acting how I usually perceive newbie scum to act; even if this means he was against me somewhat early on, he then seemed to rectify that. I feel a newbie scum would be more likely to press the issue. The compelling reason for him to actually be scum is that he's a claimed paramedic. But as the game drags on it's highly likely all the paramedics will get killed sooner or later (unless scum already know who they are, in which case the game has been compromised) and thus we'll know for sure if he's been lying or not soon enough. The risk of killing a paramedic at this stage- especially given that paramedics are pretty much town's only hope- is foolhardy. | ||
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I'm willing to concede, as should be obvious. I'd also like to bow out of future games. | ||
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But that just didn't happen in time, and I was too caught up in how I usually play the game to really take advantage of the information already on the table. So yeah, I sucked a lot early game, too. <-> As an aside. All you people? All you dead people, going "HAHA IDIOTS HOW COULD YOU LYNCH THAT GUY" or "OMG SCUM IS SO OBVIOUS"? So. Much. Fucking. Hate. *spits on your graves* | ||
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1) Ok. I actually predicted how the opening of the game was likely to play out. Huge numbers of inactive townies + what townies who WERE active basically voting on a whim or on cults of personality meant badness for town- that's why I tried, early on, to encourage behaviour that does more to produce content. It is *necessary* for townies to take stands. In fact, if you want my thoughts, you only have to go back to the early days of the game, look through my posts and note what I say about strategy. Town in general was far too sensationalist about small things AND FAR TOO UNWILLING TO LYNCH IN THE EARLY GAME. LYNCHING IS GOOD FOR TOWN. Being scared of the lynch, attacking people pushing lynching, and attacking people for acidentally lynching town are, alone, very stupid things to do. 2) Town had a very small margin of error throughout the game. The large number of mafia kills was bad enough, but it was practically guaranteed that mafia would get to coast through the first few days without problems. We were lucky that Shallow[bay] decided it was ok to do a really stupid thing and guarantee his future lynch (or in this case, vigkill). But one of the reasons I gave up after around Fakesteve's death was that it was going to be incredibly hard for town to catch up. 3) Speaking of Fakesteve, that right there is a textbook example of what not to do as town. Don't be antagonistic to everyone and try to think through how you're going to use your powers. Town SHOULD have some kind of order, and it was disheartening that he got elected without doing anything or discussing anything but 'elect me' and such. 4) To be honest, I still hate clues. No matter how you spin them they don't seem to be good for the game. I think either side would feel hard-done by them if the other won; the mafia can't really counteract clues (unlike a detective, whom they can kill), whereas town have tremendous trouble sorting through the text to avoid red herrings; I believed they would be virtually useless at the start of the game, and that any kills gained by hunting for clues were really no better than just picking at random and scoring like that. 5) Most valuable town players were almost certainly the vigilantes- I was seriously impressed with the accuracy they displayed. CDRDude and Live2Win played quite well too- I was disappointed that Live2Win eventually got lynched. 6) Shallow[Bay] would actually have been an excellent scum if he hadn't done such a stupid ploy early on- I will never know what he was thinking, most likely. Empyrean was very good as well. Of course, since only 4 scum got lynched, it can be said the rest of them did well, as well- but I account this just as much to town's bad play as anything. Nonetheless, good job to team scum. 7) My own play was.. eh. I should've taken the setup into account more than I did, and been more flexible in general. I'm not actually a pro detective when it comes to mafia, but I'm better than a sensationalist. Or so I think. Pardoner is a lame role and should never be used, since any lynch has an outside chance of getting scum at the least- and, of course, we don't get any information from a pardoning (and, of course, the thing *I* would do to a pardoner is lynch him the next day if he pardoned someone on the assumption that he's scum and pardoned them to save them.) 8) PMs... PMs are risky and I dislike them. I couldn't trust any of them, because any PM could be from scum, any correspondance you enter into could be with scum... not so true with regard to *elders*, of course. Fact is, though, PMs are generally too risky to send out, and I was saddened that they continued. My summation of the game is that it's classic newbie mafia, with most of the usual mistakes- but these mistakes were inflated by the following. -Large player count, which makes lurking an even more powerful scum tactic (as many townies are likely to lurk as well.) -Large number of scum kills, which as I said before, make it difficult for town to recover from mislynches (and mislynches ALWAYS HAPPEN.) -Clues, which encouraged discussion to go to as many bad places as they did good. Clues are totally arbitrary and I will always loathe them. -Unclear deadlines for each day. I feel that regular deadlines must be posted and updated- a series of warnings could be pro (such as mods regularly stating how long is left until the deadline closes- especially in a game of this size.) I'm used to around 48-72 hour days, with lynch immediately occuring if one player obtains more than half the town voting for him. -Lurking, again. Inactive townies are not something 'town should deal with', NOT WHEN THE GAME IS BALANCED ASSUMING TOWNIES ARE ACTIVE. They are people not playing the game and effective provide deadweight for scum to hide in. Any game of mafia should come with the tacit assumption that everyone involved IS GOING TO PLAY, and steps of some kind should be taken to ensure this. Replacements, modkills, whatever. -I appreciate that some of my complaints are based more on the setup than the play involved. Take them with a grain of salt if you must. (I am, however, eager to debate what makes a good mafia setup vs. what doesn't.) <-> I haven't started an alternate mafia game yet- sorry, stuff in RL really has caught up with me. I keep meaning to get to it and don't, but I won't make any promises. | ||
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-Since the games are smaller, it would be easier for the mods to pick out players who aren't participating. -We could also compare how setups play out in general, and thus everything I say will be VINDICATED AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAhahem. In time, Watson. In time, they will come to heed my wisdom. | ||
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If many games are going to be run (and mafia is awesome in general, so I hope they are), then it's best to keep tabs on who signs up and doesn't, well, *play* for future reference. | ||
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I will (and have) conceded that power roles were not utilized effectively and town was not directing it's investigations terribly well, self included (except vigilantes, who were heroes). A game of this size, however, is almost certain to create problems based on inactivity one way or the other. And, frankly, if the game is balanced with that in mind, then it turns the other way, which is that town is the imbalanced side if everyone plays. Neither of these are good options. <-> I agree with the time things. Three days seems quite reasonable to me, and regular updates are awesomeness. <-> I did actually like some things about this game, at least in retrospect. The election at the start of the game is an interesting and novel mechanic to me, which I may steal for other games. I feel it will become doubly interesting once a 'metagame' has been established (that is, people have a feel for how other people play the game, as well as previous games to base the election on). The mods are to be praised for introducing this game, because mafia is quite frankly awesomesauce. | ||
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On March 13 2008 08:59 Dapperdan wrote: No. You simply don't know what you're talking about as well as we do. (this is at all the complainers of inactivity, not just Tracil) The main point of townie balance is the mafia hit balance vs # of townies. As in, cannon fodder townies work perfectly in sync with the balance. The town will always have many more voters than the mafia during the day unless the inactivity includes almost all the players -- all the inactive townies aren't needed to get the town to lynch who they want, the active ones just need to not suck. Also, in all legitimate games of mafia chuiu or I have ever been a part of, a mafia has not been elected pardoner or mayor, so the town has that additional advantage also. Your inactive townie vs inactive mafia argument only almost works because all it takes is one good mafia to run all the teams hits, however, if 90% of mafia were inactive and 90% of townies, the townies would still have the same proportion in voting advantage. A vote turnout on any day of 50% or more is strong activity and more than fair for the townies. Trust me. If a player signs up for 2 games and is inactive and both then he would warrant a ban of at least 1 game, and that would be fine. After we have a couple more games and get a better sense of active and inactive players the rule can be changed to 1 inactive game = 1/2 game ban. ... Firstly, I do know what I'm talking about, and spewing lines like that out in my direction (and I really cannot take it in any other way) is lame. I understand we play games of mafia differently and I'm fine with that, but I can't tolerate stuff like this, and resent the implication. Don't go down this track. Secondly, the arguments that town has more voters vs. mafia having more voters doesn't work. The game is not actually a VOTING RACE where town can easily use their voting power to get an edge over the mafia. *All the mafia want* is to *not* lynch fellow mafia, which means it is *very easy* for them to masquerade as townies, jump or start bandwagons (and keep in mind that since it's very easy for townies to be WRONG it is generally fallacious to lynch people for being wrong in isolation). *IF TOWN LURKS, MAFIA CAN LURK AND NOT NK LURKERS.* This is a ridiculously good scum strategy if they can get away with it, and expecting town to simply psychicly know which lurkers are scum are not just doesn't work. They don't need to worry about lynching particular people because they can just NK all the 'good' townies anyway using their insane amount of kills (I'm used to one scum kill per night. *ONE!* And this STILL has resulted in scum victories more often than not, in games with a comparable scum/town ratio.) Again, scum get far less burned than town if they are inactive in roughly equal proportion because of their control over what actually *happens* in the game. Paramedics *can* save the day but the mafia can easily just whittle down talkative townie numbers (and since active, smart paramedics are likely to be talkative, they'll probably get taken out as well.) Concentrating on voting advantage is not the issue, here- and this ignores the point that if the game is *balanced* assuming that half the town doesn't play, then it *breaks* if all the town *does* play in the other direction, which is just as bad. Games should assume everyone plays and take steps to ensure that they do. <-> Saying that 'in the games I have played scum have never been elected' doesn't actually mean it isn't a strong tactic for the mafia to try and get elected. It's not even *hard* to present one or two scum as candidates, and the odds of being detected as a result are low. It's not an 'additional advantage for town' unless a townie gets elected, and while the odds are in town's favour, it's hardly a sure thing. (I think Elders could've been used here, as well, and concede again that the game would've gone very differently had we pegged onto their power earlier.) | ||
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I stand by my points, though. (My game failed for reasons that had nothing to do with the setup, anyway.) | ||
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I figured you were telling the truth and didn't want to tell everyone else. >_> | ||
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Mafia and Werewolf are pretty much the same game, actually. Both are awesome. I've heard, but not played variants called Mafia vs Werewolf where there's a mafia family and a pack of werewolves as WELL as town, and each side tries to be the only one left remaining. | ||
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Town almost won that game, too. Nobody knew there were so many families at the start, iirc. | ||
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