EPTTeam Liquid Mafia [gg] - Page 2
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
| ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
I am kinda leery of clues (my stance is that you can make up pretty much anything from the descriptions and attribute it to any given player, and given that in various other games that have been linked to, red herrings are deliberatey slipped into the flavour, kinda making me wonder if they're even intended to be helpful) but they're as good as anything for pointing fingers early on. Randomly selecting a mayor isn't actually a bad idea provided he uses his abilities wisely. The number of scum is relatively low compared to the number of townies; odds dictate we'll likely hit someone decent. I could get behind this, but how do we generate a random result? | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
On February 12 2008 07:41 Empyrean wrote: Think about it, guys. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Tracil or anyone, but in the introduction, it's known that there are multiple mafia. I'm just a bit suspicious that Tracil's being so helpful. How do we know the mafia aren't acting in collusion to get him elected? He has a large number of votes already. After his election, in which he has the mafia vote AND the townspeople vote, IF he is part of the mafia, the game is effectively over. Mafia + major is a very dangerous position to be in. That being said, I'm withholding my vote. I want to see Tracil's defense. I also have dinner plans coming up! (I only used Tracil as an example. The same reasoning can be applied for the other people as well) You find it suspicious that I'm being helpful. It stands to reason, then, that the way for me to *not* be suspicious is to... not be helpful. People can see what's wrong with that, right? I've seen a very dangerous logical fallacy being spread around, starting with Live2Win and repeated here; it's also a regrettably common one, especially in newbie games of mafia. Basically, it goes like this. 1) Mafioso want to be seen as trusted townies. 2) Person X is taking actions that appear to be trustworthy. 3) Therefore, Person X could be/is mafia! To reply to that. Firstly, if your only reason to find me suspicious is that I've stepped up and pointed out some ways on how I feel the game should be played, I don't feel that's really a valid call to be any more suspicious of me than anyone else. I'm going to define suspicious more as 'I somewhat believe him to be mafia' than 'we should pay close attention to his words'; you should be paying close attention to *everyones* words, or lack of them. Obviously it's good for you read what I say and make up my own mind. Furthermore, each and every person here has a vested interest in being seen as trustworthy, town or mafia. As a townie, one of your duties, believe it or not, is to avoid getting lynched, and the best way to do that is to be helpful and active. People making light of my statement that we shouldn't lie are kinda missing the point. Townies shouldn't lie, Mafia practically have to. Townies don't have *reason* to lie; mafia always do. Yes, you can die at anytime, especially if you are, well, on the right track as far as your discussion goes. However, as a town, we must set the pace of the game and not allow the mafia to stifle discussion! Fear is the tool of evil! If *every townie discusses things as much as they can* then the mafia are going to be hard-pressed for targets, no? <-> It's been said that I haven't participated as much in detective work. I've already set out why I don't want to go heavily after clues myself at this point. I view them more as peripheral evidence to other cases if anything. I'd rather go after people on the basis of what they say and do than anything else. However, I am, in fact, already somewhat suspicious of some people. 1) Manhini, who appeared to simply dislike me for no reason and refused to elaborate. Again, discussion is, well, what town does. Not talking or responding to questions = bad. Very bad. 2) Live2Win, who is avoiding voting for me on the basis that 'Tracil knows how to play; if he is mafia, that would be very bad for us if he was mayor, much worse than if SMB was mayor'. Firstly, mayor is a potent pro-town position. It stands to reason it will be more effective in the hands of someone familiar with the game, as it keeps them alive without necessitating protection of any kind. Secondly, his basis for distrust of me in based partially upon a logical fallacy, which I outlined above; the reason essentially amounts to 'but Tracil COULD be mafia!' and that will apply to basically everyone, in any discussion in any context until they have somehow confirmed themselves. Thirdly, even if you assume that my attempt to set out some solid tips on playing that are clearly beneficial to the town and are likely useful to the hordes of people here who haven't played mafia before is not, in fact, telling of me being trustworthy one way or the other, then *odds alone* dictate that it's unlikely for me to be scum, and the same would go for any of the mayoral candidates, and as someone who has played this game quite a lot, I feel I'm a better person to be elected than the others who have stepped forward. To conclude, suspicion against me stems from people feeling that mayor is a dangerous position if the mafia possess it, and that it's possible I might be mafia. I don't really think town should compromise all their decisions based on 'person xyz might be mafia', that's really just a step up from thinking 'but if I accuse a mafioso, I might die at night.' Look at what people say. Be careful. Ask them questions, demand explanations- but if you end up not having anything more suspicious out of them than what you feel about everyone else, it's time to persue a new line of enquiry. | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
| ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
NONETHELESS I am rapidly coming to believe that the Dr. is more scummy than you (if only because you're posting explanations and he's pulling a Vader on us.) | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
Still, I believe it's more reliable to go after, well, things that are clear and obvious than to dream up convoluted explanations for why someone could be scum; far better than to go after someone for... no real reason. | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
Fundamentally, it's likely that one of the two is lying. If we lynch both of them, then we're highly likely to hit scum, and trading one townie for one scum is actually a good deal. | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
| ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
I guess we'll get to it once elections are over! | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
On February 12 2008 09:51 GeneralStan wrote: I don't trust Tracil. The man makes too much sense. ????? how is that even a reason | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
"Tracil makes too much sense." I'm making sense. It is implied he agrees with what I'm saying with that comment, or at least believes it's logical, so.. he turns around and decides I'm not trustworthy? I don't understand. | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
| ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
However, I disagree that we should be focusing elsewhere; the Dr. Dragoon vs. Swallow thing wasn't just a 'mishap'; it was either a blatant mistake on Dragoon's part, or a stupid action on Swallows. I don't think we can really let this slide. The attitudes people take on this will be noted for future days- people should weigh in on it, and I know that if I'm elected mayor, I will likely use the instant-lynch to kill either Dragoon or Caller at this point (the latter because he said 'I am mafia', which is.. well.. dumb.) | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
@ Shallow: Uh, sorry! | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
Seraphim, if you want to lynch me, explain why. Give your opponents a chance to explain themselves. Without an actual argument, there is no reason to follow what you say. | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
Going through the posts, responding as I run through them. Lots of reiteration going on, I fear. On February 12 2008 11:28 dancefayedance!~ wrote: I did think that of course and it is plausible. i was only worried that he is trying to be mayor so he has more reason to defend his "good" name if he is a mafia member. i wasnt suspicious at first really, however, i tried to watch his posts and see how much of an effort he takes in responding to all of them that say he is the mafia. we all know dr.dragoon is the first one to get lynched, and if tracil isn't a mafia member he knows that the second day clues won't lead to him, so why be so persistent in defending your character especially when you already have majority of the votes for mayor? but if he is a mafia member he would take more time clearing up his name especially this early on. not only does it soldifiy his election as mayor but we'll all assume he isn't a mafioso in the very beginning, making this game his. i'm only saying this : proceed with caution. I'll say it again, I guess. I don't find the clue system useful; given the length of the boast and the huge pool of players we have, I feel that if you look hard enough, you'll find something that could point to almost anyone. Furthermore, since the clues could be so incredibly obscure as to not be helpful AND deliberate red herrings can be included, I think it may even be dangerous to persue cases solely on the basis of clues. As for defending myself... I feel it's necessary to defend myself when people attack me. Especially when they don't actually explain themselves at all. Again, editing posts is bad because it's more likely mafia have something to hide than townies. Why do it? Why not post again to clarify things? Why is editing a superior choice? If people make a mistake, it should be there for all to see, not hastily covered up! The solution is clearly not to allow editing because mafia members might use other people who edit as mislynch targets, but to *not edit* and not allow yourself to become a target that way! Townies being dumb are an unfortunate reality. If someone is doing something stupid, that's no excuse for their actions, as I firmly believe any one mafia is more likely to do something stupid than any one townie, who is *not* as likely to get caught up in lies or anything. On February 12 2008 12:29 demonic_phate wrote: I'm starting to beleive that if you just shut your mouth up and stay quiet you have a much higher chance at survival. Otherwise people will look you up, devise some crackpot reason for you being the mafioso, declare their reasons.... Madness? THIS IS TL MAFIA!!!!!! NO! DO NOT SHUT YOUR MOUTH! Talk lots and lots and discuss things! This game is not about personal survival! A townie win is a win for all townies! Avoid getting lynched, yes- but shutting up out of fear of getting killed at night? That's crap. On February 12 2008 12:32 Dr.Dragoon wrote: 1. shallow is not mafia, but that doesn't mean I'm mafia either 2. Photoshopping a message to frame someone is a stupid idea, but an EVEN STUPIDER thing to do, would be to send the message in that PM. So that "pm" is a lot less likely than a fake shop. 3. Simply a joke post, check out a lot of my earlier posts where I'm just joking around. Only the mafia know who aren't mafia, so it's impossible to say with certainty what Shallow's alignment is... especially for you. Exception: The mayor will know who his bodyguards are. But he's not elected yet. You also hinted at the possibility of both you and Shallow lying. Uh, are you saying you lied? I may have missed this. Lying's bad, really bad, mmkay. Townies shouldn't do it. On February 12 2008 12:47 CDRdude wrote: Speaking of shallow lying low, isn't that exactly what he's doing now? I haven't seen him post much in the past couple of hours. People have other things to do, as long as he posts a few times each day of real time that's honestly enough for me. I'm sure there are HEAPS of people who haven't posted anything yet, but it's very hard to pick them out without going through the entire thread. On February 12 2008 13:58 CDRdude wrote: What if the mayor declares a double lynching as his first act in office? If I'm mayor I will almost certainly use double lynches as soon as possible. My first act in office, however, is to lynch one guy. Town seems to support Dr. Dragoon as a target in general, and that's where I'll probably be going with it. | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
Why would I want to kill my political rivals off *after I'm elected*? o-o; | ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
| ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
| ||
|
Tracil
Australia505 Posts
I also already suspect you anyway and this has been made plainly evident. It would be equally bad of me to get elected mayor and kill someone without hinting at whom I would target beforehand at all. | ||
| ||
