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On May 21 2019 19:28 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 19:25 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 21 2019 19:24 VisceraEyes wrote:
Like at this point I've come to grips with the fact that I'm not as townread as I was - my intention is to change that before D2. Who do you actually townread this game and why were you so easily convinced by Koshi that Calix is scum? I wouldn't even say I was convinced - I had considered the thought ever since she maf read me initially (yeah, my first thought was "she maf reads me? MAFIA!!!!!") and I decided that it was way more likely to be town. But then all of Koshi/ruXxar/(one of disfo/Conv) were all talking about her and I thought it was maybe possible. I'm not convinced - it seemed like a good place to park a vote. I even said I intended to change it before I left.
please quote the post where you said you intended to change it because I don't recall you ever saying that.
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To VE: You didn't answer my question, who do you actually townread this game and who do you intend to move your vote to? I'm only around for a few hours here because I have to sleep, I'll probably be around for deadline but can't guarantee it since I have morning meetings.
To HF: If you don't think ruxxar is a good lynch then do you have any alternatives to suggest or are you going to continue to play coy? I'm not sure if I really have anything left to say on ruxxar and honestly my isolation here is pretty annoying because I'm constantly doubting myself.
Like what I don't get is that I read Calix, conversion, disfo, Jock etc. as town but none of them are helping and they're just playing in some sort of sandbox off on the side refusing to get out. I'm wondering now if my townread on one or more of them is misplaced
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On May 21 2019 19:35 VisceraEyes wrote:Ya guys, I'ma sheep this cycle sry. I think its better for everyone this way. HF I HAVE no thoughts as to who, I'm leaving that up to smarter people than me 
stop dodging my question. I can buy that you don't have a real scumread at the moment, I'll let you get away on that one. But you aren't getting away on who you townread. If your sheep target makes sense I'll let you go. Otherwise I guarantee I will push for you to get lynched d2, whether I am alive or not.
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On May 21 2019 19:37 VisceraEyes wrote:
I would still lynch iGrok maybe, flurry of activity looked okayish but HF right, hardly any conclusions.
Not into Koshi/Rayn, I'm town on both of them. BC I'm townish on. I could maybe lynch Conversion, but I have them at both the same level of 'maybe a little scummy but I don't personally want to vote them' and it's not strong.
Who's your strongest townread(s)?
This still doesn't really indicate to me who you'd be willing to sheep. Do you think BC is wrong on ruxxar? If you think BC is town, am I also town? If we're both town, why do you not want to sheep us on ruxxar?
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On May 21 2019 19:38 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 19:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
To VE: You didn't answer my question, who do you actually townread this game and who do you intend to move your vote to? I'm only around for a few hours here because I have to sleep, I'll probably be around for deadline but can't guarantee it since I have morning meetings.
To HF: If you don't think ruxxar is a good lynch then do you have any alternatives to suggest or are you going to continue to play coy? I'm not sure if I really have anything left to say on ruxxar and honestly my isolation here is pretty annoying because I'm constantly doubting myself.
Like what I don't get is that I read Calix, conversion, disfo, Jock etc. as town but none of them are helping and they're just playing in some sort of sandbox off on the side refusing to get out. I'm wondering now if my townread on one or more of them is misplaced Townread all of them for nothing Maf read VE for nothing Trying to squeeze blood out of an HF Maybe Bugs is just insane?
maybe if you read the game for once you'd know why I've townread them
this is actually completely unacceptable from you, dare I say it as either alignment. I have a town of posts on why I consider all four of those players town and it's remarkable to me that you'd consistently miss such a huge amount of content.
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On May 21 2019 19:39 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 19:37 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 21 2019 19:35 VisceraEyes wrote:Ya guys, I'ma sheep this cycle sry. I think its better for everyone this way. HF I HAVE no thoughts as to who, I'm leaving that up to smarter people than me stop dodging my question. I can buy that you don't have a real scumread at the moment, I'll let you get away on that one. But you aren't getting away on who you townread. If your sheep target makes sense I'll let you go. Otherwise I guarantee I will push for you to get lynched d2, whether I am alive or not. Did you just claim mafia being in the mafia QT?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
are you planning on shooting me, is that why?
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On May 21 2019 19:42 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 19:39 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 21 2019 19:37 VisceraEyes wrote:
I would still lynch iGrok maybe, flurry of activity looked okayish but HF right, hardly any conclusions.
Not into Koshi/Rayn, I'm town on both of them. BC I'm townish on. I could maybe lynch Conversion, but I have them at both the same level of 'maybe a little scummy but I don't personally want to vote them' and it's not strong. Who's your strongest townread(s)? This still doesn't really indicate to me who you'd be willing to sheep. Do you think BC is wrong on ruxxar? If you think BC is town, am I also town? If we're both town, why do you not want to sheep us on ruxxar? Yes I think both you and BC are town. Why not sheep you? Because believe it or not, I can think you're town and disagree with your lynch preference! :OOOOOOO If cementing my vote to you is the only way for you to townread me then you're just going to have to lynch me. I've stated why I think ruXxar is town, I'm not going to quotewall it because you're just going to quotewall me back "explaining" why I'm wrong when all you're doing is narrative building. ITS WHAT YOU DO. So no, I disagree with lynching ruXxar, try again.
look, you and I know that a quote wall of two posts is no quote wall. At this point I have little doubt that you have really even considered my points on ruxxar even if you are town because you just demonstrated that you think I townread four players for no reason whatsoever.
At any rate, good luck finding someone to sheep when HF & BC are my strongest townreads, BC and myself are voting ruxxar together and HF basically just admitted he has no idea what is going on.
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It's actually pretty annoying that I am looking for an alternative and rather than provide a good one people just say nah there's no alternative but you suck and I don't feel like sheeping you because your conviction bothers me when I have none blah blah
I'm not completely convinced that ruxxar is scum, especially because there is so much resistance, and I'm looking for good reasons to townread him but you all give me a handful of things that I point out are not alignment indicative, then throw up your hands after I respond and ask for alternatives rather than actually lay out objective facts. Like Calix you literally said your reason for townreading ruxxar is not rational. How the hell is anyone supposed to even respond to that? It also seems that people agree to some degree that disformation/conversion are not good lynches either. So what does that leave?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm gonna leave now and I'm not coming back for deadline, y'all can do what you want. If we hit scum great, hooray. Since no one has bothered to offer up an alternative, I'm not going to move my vote.
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/vVxq2cR.png)
these are all of my reads
On May 21 2019 19:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
This thread is such a clusterfuck.
Lets all sit back for like, 5 minutes. Remove all our current views for the moment on Calix and Ruxxar.
I say this as these 2 have eaten up the majority of the last well, 30+ hours?
Who does everyone else think is mafia. Of those people who has been say mentioned many times but like, any number of people but its either ignored, buried, or forgotten?
This is for people like VE and Bugs. Stop fighting each other for 5 minutes and how about we find some form of consensus.
and before you yell and scream at me bugs. Yes I think Ruxxar could still flip mafia, but it means jack shit currently if neither of us can convince anyone else to see what we have. So if only 2 maybe 3 people see what we see, just for a moment concede for the purposes of other options that we could be wrong.
I have been trying to find consensus for over 24 hours and am about ready to give up.
People are being inordinately difficult for seemingly no good reason and it seems like mafia are also blackballing a lot of my posts, because I think the amount of shade (especially the indirect shade) I'm getting can't entirely be from townies frustrated with how I'm playing. A lot of it doesn't seem natural or warranted given the actual content of my posts.
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On May 21 2019 20:11 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
damnit bugs. We have such differing reads on a few players =\
Basically mine is as followed
Town
BC
WBG
HF (again god help me)
VE
Null
Koshi
Conversion
Jock
Rayn (although he is leaning to the scum column now)
Calix (only because I think Ruxxar is higher chance to be mafia, but could still be red)
Igrok
Mafia
Ruxxar
Disinformation
Artanis
I think most of it is that you have a lot more null reads than I do, and on reading disformation & artanis's posts I lean town (10-20% is a few ticks below baseline/null).
I'm going to put the non-VE stuff in a spoiler so it's easier to read, the VE stuff is the most important read difference so I'm putting it outside.
I don't have great reasons to believe VE is town in this game because of his read progressions and a lot of the completely nonsense things he's been saying. Go ahead and look at his interactions with me in particular and see whether what he's been doing has made sense to you. For instance, he moved on Calix with almost no mention beforehand, and he similarly has very little to say on disfo other than he reached the opposite conclusion on disfo as me after reading him. He doesn't clarify why, he just eventually reaches a conclusion with basically no steps inbetween. He does this on not just Calix and disfo but also ruxxar.
He also claims I'm "narrative building" which I'm not sure why he says that or why he believes it, while just recently he claimed I have a bunch of reads for no reasons whatosever. My reasoning is very straightforward and clear in my posts and that's just a further indication that VE isn't actually following the game in order to try and figure out alignments.
He's been present for a lot of the game, he's witnessed the fact that votes are completely spread out, but he never does anything to actually fix that. Don't you think that town VE would be up in arms about that? Town VE would either elevate a townread to fix that problem, or try to do it himself. He's done neither, and in fact I don't even remember if he's really commented on the state of the votes or the state of the thread at all. Contrast that with your reaction to the state of the game and I read you as far more townie.
For VE to say he'd still lynch iGrok after literally all that happened in thread is the cherry on top. There have been pushes on ruxxar, disfo, conversion, Calix, and apparently he's taken some stances to some degree on each of these, but he chooses to say he'd be willing to lynch iGrok....???? If he reached the opposite conclusion of me on ruxxar & disfo then why is he still mentioning iGrok and not pushing disfo when disformation is actually a viable wagon??
There is no attempt from VE to help us get to a consolidation and that's another point in the scumbook.
+ Show Spoiler +
In context of the big picture, conversion and disformation are most likely either opposite alignments or TvT because the only tunnel stronger than my own on ruxxar is conversion's on disformation. This means that you probably should do one of the following: 1. move conversion to town, 2. move disfo to null, or move both to town. You can check my filter for my detailed thoughts on both players.
Jock asks a lot of questions and flits around and at times I've toyed with pushing him down to lean town from certain town, but he's certainly not null to me. He's one of the higher activity players in the game and I get the impression that he's actually trying to figure out things, he just doesn't really have a good grasp on how to do it. For example his responses about what he thinks are scummy are quite odd (they were odd last game too) but they're odd in the sense that he doesn't really have a scumhunting sense yet. I don't find them scummy odd, like it doesn't look like he's pushing any sort of real agenda.
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also BC, note; do you remember VE ever asking you any questions or trying to figure out the game with you?
Last game I recall that he was involved with both of us and fairly proactively at that. He'd take our opinions and try to see whether they're worth incorporating, and build on what we'd discuss in-thread.
I don't see any of that this game. He's really fast to just pick fights with me rather than try to come to an understanding on why I am perceiving the game the way I am, and more importantly, he doesn't seem to be trying to interact with us to confirm whether his own vision of the game makes sense.
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On May 21 2019 20:34 Holyflare wrote:
I think I'd settle on a VE lynch maybe. But it annoys me to do that over people that think it's ok to not play the game. So rayn might be a spite lynch that could hit mafia but ve is an I think is actually mafia but if I'm wrong it would suck.
VE just basically comes back to say look how towny I am, disputes a bunch of shit, says he's not gonna vote who his vote is actually on and is instead gonna sheep, doesn't actually sheep and leaves again.
I put rayn and VE about on equal terms to flip scum, and honestly based on the progression of this game I find it very likely they could both be scum together.
I hate doing this so standard disclaimer that it's probably premature, but they are also two of only about three players who have had opinions on ruxxar that seem completely unsupported. Like, a lot of people have parroted the idea that ruxxar looks town and a few (like you and Calix) have indicated to some degree that this is actually based on reading his posts, but neither rayn nor VE have any indication whatsoever why they believe ruxxar to be scum, nor did they bother asking ruxxar questions, like Calix, myself, and you did.
Rayn has a whopping total of two posts on ruxxar:
On May 20 2019 14:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Jock, Calix, disformation.
I dont think ruxxar is mafia. Especially to oeople who havent played with him he always looks scummy purely from how he writes his posts.
On May 21 2019 15:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Yeah neither of ruxxar abd conv are scum.
and unlike ruxxar, rayn actually has one or two interactions with conversion.
VE OTOH actually made up shit that ruxxar never said in order to call him town, then projected onto me by saying I made up things to call disfo town:
On May 21 2019 06:19 VisceraEyes wrote:
Nah I'm fine with ruX. I picked up reading after his initial post (which I initially townread him for) and he checked like all my townie marks in the first few posts after. I don't want to lynch ruX. Among the things I found were:
Annoyance at being ignored.
Annoyance with lurkers.
Fluid reads that change as people post.
Bringing up people others aren't looking at.
Among other more nuanced things I look for.
Rux not on my radar today.
1. Annoyance at being ignored, I asked VE to point this out, he never did.
2. Annoyance with lurkers, I again asked VE to point this out, he pointed out something about how ruxxar was annoyed with everyone being ACTIVE (an indication that VE has no idea what the fuck he's talking about this game)
3. Fluid reads that change as people post: again asked to point out how ruxxar was changing his reads, VE never responded.
4. Bringing up people others aren't looking at: LOL. I guess I'll cede this one? Calix was a dead easy target based on first post alone and as BC mentioned, ruxxar's own first post was almost identical to Calix's post.
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sorry, *why they believe ruxxar to be town
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disfo, conversion, BC (especially BC, cause you came in with the intention of cleaning up the thread :D)
you're doing that classic town vs town vs town shitfest thing.
Let's back it up a bit, and come to an agreement that you all disagree with each other, and from this standpoint it looks like you're all arguing about completely pointless things when none of the things any of you are pointing out seem scummy to me.
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On May 21 2019 20:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
I really Hate you bugs, I really do.
no you don't :D
also it's my turn to shit on people unfairly for dirtying up the thread LOL
On May 21 2019 20:53 disformation wrote:
jo. bugs, calix do you guys see the problem in bc's read progression too or am i just stupid?
nah I think you're reading into it too much
besides at this point of the game why would we lynch into the pool of players who actually seem passionate about getting the game solved, and who are genuinely frustrated that we all collectively suck?
I was feeling pretty garbo on the last page but now witnessing you all fight I realized that my gripe is mostly with the probable mafia in ruxxar + rayn + VE + maybe Koshi who aren't really trying to figure out the game at all but still managing to destroy the thread.
Actually Koshi maybe is trying to figure out the game in his own way, sometimes it's hard to tell.
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I refuse to believe BC could be scum here
there is literally not a world in which BC as scum comes in and starts berating people for a horrible thread atmosphere. No offense BC but you're too lazy, and too smart, as scum to do that; if the thread is already chaos BC could just sit back and push from the sidelines. He's definitely 100% capable of doing that because he's one of the best scum players on this forum. In fact, I've played on the same team as him in which we would tag team towns-I naturally destroy threads, often regardless of alignment, and BC is a great instigator.
Here, he's not instigating anything, he's just trying to figure out the game.
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On May 21 2019 20:56 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 20:52 wherebugsgo wrote:
disfo, conversion, BC (especially BC, cause you came in with the intention of cleaning up the thread :D)
you're doing that classic town vs town vs town shitfest thing.
Let's back it up a bit, and come to an agreement that you all disagree with each other, and from this standpoint it looks like you're all arguing about completely pointless things when none of the things any of you are pointing out seem scummy to me. I would like to do this. I think we need to start working together more. I'll start with this:
##UnvoteRight conversion, I still think you're scum but my vote will most likely land elsewhere. I'm fed of being being distracted with you putting me on the defensive while I'm trying to figure out more important shit. WBG: Can you see why I need to figure out calix/koshi??? Calix has almost exactly the same reads as me and is now trying to get the rayn trayn a running. However, Koshi is insisting that calix is scum and we're all stupid for not already knowing that. So... I need to know whether calix is scum so I can figure out whether or not to reevaluate absolutely everything so far. What are you thinking on this? I'm sorry for being fucking useless but I don't even know how to figure this shit out at all... especially while koshi isn't here.
I mean I don't understand why you would even bother to read Koshi's posts at all. Reading his posts is more for entertainment purposes than anything else.
Although I will admit that I looked up Calix/Koshi history and the total number of games is 3, 2 where Calix is town with Koshi scum and 1 with the opposite. It would be pretty lulzy if it's opposite alignment again
At any rate Calix is probably not scum here. Trying to figure out the game + trying to get town to consolidate on someone. Rayn is actually a great lynch target. Hell, if you both have the same reads then that's a great sign that you're both town, especially if you have reasons that differ from Calix's but you reach the same conclusions.
Koshi I don't know how to read yet and that's why I keep saying we should just punt him. It's day 1 still, we don't need to get antsy about Koshi because we're not lynching him today. We're certainly not lynching Calix either.
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On May 21 2019 21:01 Calix wrote:
I don't understand why VE is being considered over rayn. At least VE's actually playing the game.
A bunch of the points against VE seem to be meta-based, or based around 'well he'd usually do this but he's doing that instead' or something, and since I don't know VE, these points don't have much credibility with me tbh.
VE and rayn are basically doing the same thing in this game.
Note that they also mysteriously jumped to townreading each other while they have bristled with basically everyone else in the game. I think the only exception was VE pointing out that rayn had disappeared.
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VE does on iGrok what rayn does on Jock.
basically they both bring up some really old shit that they can't seem to get past, while townies would holistically look at the situation and incorporate new information as it arrives.
Like they're both basically parroting the same stuff from nearly 2 IRL days ago when there are far better things to look at now.
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here's the thing that's making me hesitant though
If we're wrong about one or both of VE we get rid of an asset on D1 and despite this being a game with longer lynch cycles that's potentially a big loss
Like, even if they're both scum together there's guaranteed to be a third person that's scum and I think that third person is probably an easier catch than either of them.
In my opinion the world at this point makes total sense if VE & rayn are scum together, but that's too early for me to make that association for sure. What I'd rather do is try and hit that scum hiding somewhere, which we're pretty much guaranteed to have and we're more likely to hit if we're wrong on one or both of VE/rayn.
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EPT
