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I petition that if DYH is scum, and Stutters doesn't vote, that the game ends here and we get all the trophies.
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On September 29 2016 06:49 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2016 06:48 Jealous wrote:
I petition that if DYH is scum, and Stutters doesn't vote, that the game ends here and we get all the trophies. I will get the trophies and you will be jealous 
Your vote is on Skynx hahahahaha
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I felt guilty because DYH was coming off as town in those last posts, truly trying to help town and all that... it was at the point when it was obvious no one would take their votes off him and everything he had to say was futile, he kept posting for town... hence the guilt ;-;
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On September 30 2016 01:24 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2016 23:41 Jealous wrote:
I felt guilty because DYH was coming off as town in those last posts, truly trying to help town and all that... it was at the point when it was obvious no one would take their votes off him and everything he had to say was futile, he kept posting for town... hence the guilt ;-; You know it does seem a bit odd that if your starting to think someone might be town enough to feel guilty about their flip that you'd post that you are "locked in" rather than suggest a vote switch.
I'm locked in because of evidence, guilty because feels. Evidence > feels.
Also, @Calix, the only reason I made the long post on DYH is because even though he was being discussed, he only had 2 or 3 votes including myself, 1 on Xata/skynx, and like 6 people yet to vote. I figured people needed more convincing so I did an analysis post by post. Naturally, I came up with some of the same things others had up until that point and reiterated some of my own previous analysis. Don't really see how you're trying to fault me on this one, feels like you're trying to make something out of nothing for the sake of never being without a scumlean.
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There had to be a reason why Rels was chosen over Calix imo. Reading both filters should help. Will do that in a few hours.
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On September 30 2016 07:43 Jealous wrote:
There had to be a reason why Rels was chosen over Calix imo. Reading both filters should help. Will do that in a few hours.
Sorry, too much work. Will have to wait until tomorrow, probably around 3-4 PM EST.
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On October 01 2016 03:14 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2016 02:29 Skynx wrote:On September 29 2016 22:17 Calix wrote:So I decided to look back through the posts leading up to the ML and I think Jealous has the most questionable sequence with regards to his DYH read. Here's what tipped me off: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2016 08:31 Jealous wrote:
It seems like people have mostly vocally agreed on DYH with a few exceptions, but I don't see the votes on him. I'll construct my case on him then, just so that it's out there. I was going to revisit Stutters but I see DYH as priority right now. Working. On September 28 2016 09:09 Jealous wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 24 2016 11:26 DoYouHas wrote:
I think I like you as well Stutters. Good on ya.
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I'll try to get into something beyond these gut reads tomorrow, hopefully when a few more people have posted. As is I'm pretty happy with tonight. 3/5 for my town pile and 2 I need to think about and watch. Gnight. Promises more substance tomorrow, let's see if he delivers. + Show Spoiler +On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ. He's been gone for almost 24 hours and comes back with this. For reference, Stutters was making a case on SEQ and told people to go look at SEQ filter. DYH is basically saying "okay, I'll do what you suggest to check out your scumread and work with you, but only if you give me your thoughts on ptmc, about whom I haven't said a word yet." I don't know if this is very townie behavior. Why wouldn't he just give his thoughts on SEQ and then ask about ptmc? + Show Spoiler [Sidenote] +Interesting post from Xata on this, prior to DoYouHas' return: On September 25 2016 06:50 Xatalos wrote:
DoYouHas did make quite a bit of posts earlier btw. 6 posts, only 4 of which were during the game, and none of which had substance besides 3 gut reads. Is this really worth commenting on? Is this really "quite a bit?" Hmm. On September 25 2016 10:16 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2016 10:15 Jealous wrote:On September 25 2016 00:23 Lunaticman wrote:
The game is 4 pages long day one, take a chill pill. I dare to say I have done more than half the players in the game and in my experience you never hit mafia day one. It is much better to build a town circle.
Also Stutters is in all likelyhood a blue role. And if he dies it is on you and Rels.
Am I crazy for thinking this is an anti town post? Making Stutters out to be blue role with no nuance is downright retarded. It is absolutely anti-town. Do you think it is bad play or scum? On September 25 2016 10:53 DoYouHas wrote:
So is it bad enough that you would want to lynch him or do you currently have a stronger scum read on someone else currently? On September 25 2016 11:09 DoYouHas wrote:
@Jealous, are you in and out? Why is it taking you this long to respond to me? As Tictock pointed out, DYH seems to be pressuring me more than Lunatic despite (at least superficially) agreeing with me that Lunatic is playing anti-town. In fact, DYH hadn't said a word about Lunatic at all up until this point. Surely he saw the post? Why ignore Lunatic? Why jump on me? + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 03:45 DoYouHas wrote:You have Giacomo! (so long as you are leading against DH, Luna, or Jealous) So he throws Luna into the mix now that Luna has drawn attention but dilutes it by throwing two other names in there, neither of which he had mentioned until now. The only person he had really said anything of substance about until here is SEQ, besides his gutreads at the start of the game. (Also, he didn't really contribute anything in over 27 hours, despite promising to do so). This is his first time calling any of the three scum, and does it in a way that provides no substance whatsoever. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 03:58 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote:
I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well. Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up. DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared. Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that. Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum. Here he elaborates, imaginably because he is trying to get Superbia to sheep him. Doesn't like DH for scumreading Luna, despite also saying Luna is "possible scum," and then puts me in the same group again. Note, I was against Luna at the time as well. How would that team of 3 ever make sense? Both I and DH go for a bus halfway through D1 when there were only a handful of pages and posts, after telling Lunatic to post like an idiot? That's a stretch, and DYH makes no sense here otherwise. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 04:04 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 03:59 Superbia wrote:On September 26 2016 03:58 DoYouHas wrote:On September 26 2016 03:50 Superbia wrote:
I am so fucking confused as to why no one has called me mafia yet this game and now everyone is reacting like this.
???
Oh well. Activity levels are low and there are better lynch targets than you, especially if your going to ramp up. DH's tunnel onto Luna is very contrived with no follow through. Pair that with his questionable early posting and it feels like scum to me. Maybe he brings something to the table before deadline now, but it feels like he tunneled just long enough to get the spotlight on someone else then disappeared. Luna made an anti-town play and has essentially shut down since coming under the displeasure of the thread, making him a very reasonable lynch and possible scum. I don't think making a meta read is in any way alignment indicative but I appear to be in the minority on that. Jealous started with fluff, then stirred the pot, and finished by being super non-commital. Townies should be trusting there own judgement over that of people's whose alignments are uncertain. Also potentially scum. So uh. Read on DH is pre-flip association or what? I don't think Luna and Dane are likely to be scum together, but taking there play individually I think either of them could be scum here. Is that what you meant? I guess this explains the previous post somewhat, but he only makes the distinction when asked by Superbia? You would think that would be something you'd want to put in your post that is supposed to be informative to Superbia, and not only when probed further. In short, he threw out three scum reads he had never mentioned until then, then elaborated on it, but didn't mention he didn't think they were on a team together. That's careless at best; misleading seems more likely. Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 04:18 DoYouHas wrote:
##Vote: Luna
Kind of a shame, in my head he was going to come back strong today and I was going to be able to make a case for Dane over him. But every hour that goes by without him contributing makes it more and more likely he flips scum. This post still sucks. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 04:27 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 04:20 Rels wrote:On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ. On September 25 2016 11:02 DoYouHas wrote:On September 25 2016 10:56 Stutters695 wrote:On September 25 2016 10:11 DoYouHas wrote:
I am around Stutters. What are your thoughts on ptmc? I'll trade you for some on SEQ. I don't think ptmc is a better lynch before SEQ gets to respond. Voting me with his focus on Luna is super weird also. SEQ does not bother me much at all. He reads like he jumped in with both feet and started rooting around. The line you bolded would be weak reasoning if he had actually gone after Xata or spread suspicion on him, but I don't think he did. He moves on pretty quickly and after talking about mafia in a pretty general sense (not unusual for someone new to forum mafia, especially with Jealous getting into it too) he seems to be scumhunting. You have picked a pretty early statement from him that does not, to me, hold the significance you are assigning it. Calix is right. The sequence seems pretty forced. DYH said "I'll exchange your read on ptmc for my read on SEQ" when his read on SEQ is null. And it also looks like he was waiting of Stutters to go "OK what's your read on SEQ now ?"; but Stutters didn't, and DYH said it anyway. It looks like it was planned to appear to have a conversation. Or maybe, just maybe, both of your assumptions are wrong here. 1. I wasn't providing a null read on SEQ 2. I was actually trying to have a conversation with someone I townread. Stutters being the "someone I townread," which he did with "gut" in the first few hours of the game, which he never mentioned again. Also note that he still hasn't provided anything as he had promised at the start. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 10:32 DoYouHas wrote:
Ok, here is where I'm at for the night
Mafia
Jealous
Town
Rels
SEQ
Calix
Stutters
Skynx
Probably Town
Xata
Looking better post-flip
Dane
Unsure
Scott
Superbia
ptmc
Dane(again)
I ask why I am his scumread, only scumread. + Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 11:56 DoYouHas wrote:GRAH, I CAN'T MAKE IT STICK For everything I don't like about you and think makes you scum: Your early fluff, non-committal, over-defensiveness, appeals to your noobieness, misrepresenting me, buddying Calix, looking at the proposal of multiple wagons from a mafia perspective instead of a town one (looking at it as a trap to be avoided instead of as an opportunity for better VCA) I can't seem to find the mafia actions in your play around the lynch. If I'm having trouble convincing myself of probably the most important part when I undoubtedly have my confirmation bias glasses on it probably isn't there. I was seeing your tonal shifts from casually attacking Luna to guarded consideration then back to casual attacking as very odd. But the thing I can't figure out if you are scum is why you would leave your vote on Luna and not Stutters before the wagon on Luna got rolling. This post: Show nested quote +On September 25 2016 17:17 Jealous wrote:
I have to agree with Calix on the more anti-town part. [B]## Lunaticman just in case I don't make it back. It doesn't fit or is significantly more clever than I am. Damn, damn, damn. I hate having no scum reads. I really do need to get to bed though. See you all with the daypost. This takes him a whole hour and he calls me all sorts of terrible but still can't make a case. This means he is town/null-reading everyone in the game, was pushing a lynch/scumread since his first few posts D1 that he himself can't support and had given no concrete evidence on at all until he was forced to draw some out. That is simply foolish, and scummy in my book. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/513316-newbie-student-mafia-xxiii?page=40#791http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/513316-newbie-student-mafia-xxiii?page=40#792These are his last two posts, nearly a day ago. And frankly, I don't think they are very good. Although I think Rels post did have some stuff I didn't agree with, and DYH pointed them out, the rest of it was pretty weak. He doesn't make much sense in some parts nor does he substantiate much of his argument about why DH or I were scummy, which he references a few times. His earlier posts on the subject were, as you can see above, were weak as well, so it's not like he could reference some strong analysis from before. Overall, I think DYH is scum. I don't think neither Xata nor skynx are worth a vote right now, but I will definitely look into them more in detail. There are still some fishy things I don't like about Xata and Skynx doesn't seem to be paying much attention to the game in certain posts of his, which I don't like but can't necessarily say is scummy until I see them side-by-side in analysis. So yea, I voted DYH. He acknowledges that DYH is someone that pretty much everyone agrees is scummy, yet he thinks that it's a good use of his time to make a massive case against him and hop on the train because 'he doesn't have that many votes on him'. Keep in mind that DYH is the leading train at this point with the Xatalos/ Skynx thing being supported by almost nobody save for each other and Stutters having a few supporters. That is it. The Stutters train was not even a thing for most of the day. He references a fair number of arguments used by other players (TT, myself, etc) and the points he added aren't anything massively incriminating in retrospect. My point? It makes me wonder why Jealous felt the need to devote a large amount of his time to a case on someone that he was already scum-reading given that he largely rehashes the arguments of other players and this is all on a player that he's already given opinions on. That's not a case of bad priorities, that's posting for the hell of it. If you want an example of not-scummy points he raised, look no further than him criticising DYH for going "Lunatic, Jealous, DanelerH are my scum-reads" because "that team makes no sense". This is all fine and dandy...if we were talking about a post made on Day 4. That's not the case though; he's talking about reads made early on Day 1. Most players do not consider associative tells that early on in the game because the goal is to lynch a scum. Until then, you have no concrete information to base associative reads from so criticising DYH for that is nit-picky and doesn't add anything to the argument. This is also one of the worst EOD posts: [B]On September 29 2016 06:40 Jealous wrote:
I'm starting to WIFOM over the fact that DYH showed up just before EoD when the train is on him. Like, would a scum normally do this? I don't think I would lol. The reason it's WIFOM is because maybe he is trying to make people doubt his scumminess last second and shenanie? I'm locked in but I'll feel a little bad about it if he flips town ): As you can see, he is showing some doubt over DYH flipping scum. That's all fine, nothing to see there, but his reasoning is absolutely insane. tl;dr: - DYH showed up when he got voted - Scum wouldn't bother to turn up because scum!Jealous would not bother As Rels said earlier, this is a piss-poor reason to start doubting a scum-read when a) scum 100% would want to defend themselves so that they...don't get lynched and b) time-zones/ RL commitments can also influence if someone arrives at EOD. That's not a strong enough explanation to make anyone doubt themselves about a read, especially after the case that Jealous made where he concluded 'scum'. The mere act of posting at EOD when you are being voted has jack shit to do with your alignment. Furthermore, he wasn't interested in switching wagons from DYH so I see no logical or emotional motivation for this sudden doubt. Thus I'm concluding that he's full of shit. That post had him stretching so hard for an excuse to distance from the ML that he sprained a muscle. I don't think this makes Jealous scum. If you're scum why just not vote DYH without giving any reason and live happily ever after  To make himself look more productive, duh. My last point is really being overlooked here so I'll repeat myself here. His reasoning for doubting DYH's wagon is contrived no matter how you look at it. How would someone posting at EOD be town-indicative and overwhelm the other reasoning that he laid out just a few hours' earlier? How does anyone scum-read DYH with a multitude of reasons and then doubt that based on him turning up? Try and think through that one and tell me how that makes sense, I'd like to see that work of fiction. It makes no sense from a town mindset but by all means counter me with some valid explanations or whatever. I'd prefer Jealous but he ignored this point so I'll take spokespeople if it means people actually acknowledge me here. I should have split up my post or something so people would notice this.
I answered you. @Calix. Not going to look for the post because my laptop is running out of battery and I forgot my charger like a dumbass. I will be on phone later tonight/tomorrow.
Also, I disagree that PLynching Stutters is the absolute best way to go, even though he was my #2 scumread. At this point I believe we should get to the bottom of Xata/Scott/Skynx.
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Both cases have pretty big holes imo, and both Scott and a stutters are doing a decent job of playing town coming towards eod. Overall, I'd have to say the case on Scott is marginally stronger, and I'm surprised Calix is defending him like this. Maybe Calix thinks her trains are always best trains, which I can empathize with. Anyway, I'm voting for what I see not what I presume.
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On October 02 2016 06:41 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2016 06:35 Jealous wrote:
Both cases have pretty big holes imo, and both Scott and a stutters are doing a decent job of playing town coming towards eod. Overall, I'd have to say the case on Scott is marginally stronger, and I'm surprised Calix is defending him like this. Maybe Calix thinks her trains are always best trains, which I can empathize with. Anyway, I'm voting for what I see not what I presume. I am quite disappointed with this... Can you at least elaborate on what the holes in the cases where, and why Scott is stronger in your mind?
Both are reliant on single posts here and there with a lot of what feels like meta/tone read in between. In Scott's case it's the questionable posts relevant to DYH, in Stutters' it's the fact that he was hard town read by a noob scum who is prone to make dumb errors. I find it weird that TT made the case then backed off, too.
@Calix: I'm well aware of your Stutters case and I have had him in my scum list for about as long as you have. That doesn't mean Scott isn't the better vote today. In part I think it will be more illuminating on associations, which can't be said for Stutters.
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On October 02 2016 06:58 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2016 06:50 Jealous wrote:On October 02 2016 06:41 Tictock wrote:On October 02 2016 06:35 Jealous wrote:
Both cases have pretty big holes imo, and both Scott and a stutters are doing a decent job of playing town coming towards eod. Overall, I'd have to say the case on Scott is marginally stronger, and I'm surprised Calix is defending him like this. Maybe Calix thinks her trains are always best trains, which I can empathize with. Anyway, I'm voting for what I see not what I presume. I am quite disappointed with this... Can you at least elaborate on what the holes in the cases where, and why Scott is stronger in your mind? Both are reliant on single posts here and there with a lot of what feels like meta/tone read in between. In Scott's case it's the questionable posts relevant to DYH, in Stutters' it's the fact that he was hard town read by a noob scum who is prone to make dumb errors. I find it weird that TT made the case then backed off, too. @Calix: I'm well aware of your Stutters case and I have had him in my scum list for about as long as you have. That doesn't mean Scott isn't the better vote today. In part I think it will be more illuminating on associations, which can't be said for Stutters. Stutters has been discussed by many players so I disagree on your last point. That's a gross simplification of the cases against Stutters. Do you still scum-read Stutters or has your read changed? Who are your current scum-reads anyway? Is there a better case that you want us to focus on? I'm not sure where you stand given recent events.
I feel like Stutters has been almost universally scum read plus his filter is short af due to afk. Hs associations are not as strong.
I still don't like Stutters but I am starting to think he is just bad!town and not bad=scum. Yet to be seen and I am still okay with him being lynched in principle.
Scum team is one of Scott/Skynx/Xata and potentially betweem Stutters and someone else.
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I am starting to lose faith in this town and it's leadership.
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Last Will:
Hard Town Reads: ptmc, Daneler, Calix.
At least one scum between these: Scott, Skynx, Xata.
My opinion is if Calix doesn't die tonight, there should be a heavy look at her. I could see a world where she is scum hiding under conftown. I hold no such suspicions of ptmc, but Daneler is a possibility also.
Sorry for not being around as much as I'd like, really busy time of the year for people in my profession/position academically.
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Nice
Tictock, I didn't include you in any list because I am kinda on the fence about you. On the one hand, I feel you're townie largely due to tone/us having similar ideas, but I can't put you in the conftown group with ptmc/daneler/Calix.
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On October 03 2016 07:13 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2016 07:07 Jealous wrote:Nice Tictock, I didn't include you in any list because I am kinda on the fence about you. On the one hand, I feel you're townie largely due to tone/us having similar ideas, but I can't put you in the conftown group with ptmc/daneler/Calix. Ok, so who do you think we should lynch today and why? Also why are you more certain about Dane than me?
We have to resolve the Scott/Xata/Skynx situation first. I'd have to look at their filters again to see which one seems most scummy, but if memory serves it's Xata. I think resolving this triangle will point us to the second scum, at least.
Dane had some really good posts in D2. I will have a lot more time tomorrow to give specific reads that I've been promising. Sorry about that. Just got home today after being away for 2 days and not having a laptop cable.
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On October 04 2016 05:29 Calix wrote:In general, I think I was way too focused on 'looking townie' with my posting and thus I didn't do enough pushing of mafia objectives. Thus I'm concluding that I played terribly. I'll take tips from anyone
Yea, I kinda alluded to this in my coach QT:
"Xata seems null at best to me, Stutters is MIA and formerly scummy, Scott is still pretty firmly town to me. I'm honestly more suspicious of the people who are "firmly" town like Calix and Rels because I feel like they knew they had cancer in their body and amputated it when it was too late (when Luna fucked up) and are still riding off of that + their first good impressions. It's damn hard to find what's scummy about them, it's more the sense of them playing too perfect or too town and being too trusted that's got me paranoid. "
Once Rels was out, I was starting to strongly suspect you, but didn't have enough traction. Today was going to be the day that I try to make a case on you - I had set aside the next 3 hours for this, I come back, and it's over ):
GG everyone, sorry for being MIA and weak so much of the game, IRL is OP. Maybe when life calms down a bit I shall return.
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Finished reading the scum QT, funny how my not doing much of anything helped town a fair amount. Might be a solid strategy for the future when I roll VT.
Or maybe scum was just too paranoid and second-guessing.
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EPT
