Shin Megami Tensei: The Devil Inside Mafia
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GlowingBear
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Carnival is over | ||
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Pre game excuse: I'm busy as fucking hell | ||
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On February 12 2016 04:30 justanothertownie wrote: Then be responsible and don't play. Noone benefits from you playing when you don't have the time. But I love those people | ||
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Fiiiiiiiiiine /out | ||
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On February 12 2016 09:04 rsoultin wrote: you should /in and ignore jat <3 /in | ||
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On February 12 2016 09:12 Damdred wrote: Please do not turn the post game into a bm fight. We have enough of that running rampant on tl as it is. GB if you wish to play and can make my arbitrary activity requirement of a fee posts a day that have some small amount of effort and want to play you should. There are several people who can read you well in game regardless of activity so whatever you wish to do I'm fine with. I'll do that then, Damdy. Thank you | ||
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On February 12 2016 09:22 justanothertownie wrote: Where did you guys see anyone fight? :p What I wrote to Gb was just meant as advice because I know from experience that if you join a game you do not have time for and still care about it it will only lead to problems. Ingame and out of the game. Rsoultin should know that too btw. If GB thinks he can manage it - sure, go for it. He can of course also just ignore me. I love you JAT. You're the voice of reason. I'll just have to follow my heart | ||
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On February 16 2016 04:54 Shapelog wrote: Asi asi for me. Might be or might not. (idk i randomly decided to speak Spanish ) You'll have fun with rsoultin | ||
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On February 16 2016 04:54 Shapelog wrote: Asi asi for me. Might be or might not. (idk i randomly decided to speak Spanish ) But you probably saw "Brazil" in my profile and it reminded you of buenos aires, so you decided to speak Spanish | ||
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Vote: The Shining Druuuuuuuunk | ||
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And sorry guys. For some reason the first thing I do when I drink is to pick my phone and drunk post in TL Mafia | ||
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On February 16 2016 06:04 sicklucker wrote: Dear diary Today I woke up exited to play a game of mafia! Then I looked at the playerlist .. and I was how do you say it. Scared of spam and having alot to read. I also had alot of anxiety about jat calling me names i'm a very fragile emotional person. I hope gb has time because last game he was useless and now I here hes not going have much time again. Automatically scumreading SL for this opening I'm reading the game now for today I have time. | ||
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On February 16 2016 08:51 Trfel wrote: Hm, I'll bite. Eden is mafia because he's been present and seemingly interested, but has avoided talking about any of the things that have been happening. Eden has focused on setup speculation. This isn't inherently scummy, it's largely useless, which can come from either alignment. However, Eden seemed very interested in getting people to interact with him about his setup talk, instead of asking people about reads or commenting on things in the thread. This post directly shows Eden's desire to talk with people about the setup: + Show Spoiler + On February 16 2016 08:18 Eden1892 wrote: "I don't pay attention to the world ending. It has ended for me many times, and began again in the morning." Let's get to it. Any particular objections to millers claiming? In contrast, see his one read this game: + Show Spoiler + On February 16 2016 08:24 Eden1892 wrote: Also, for posterity's sake as much as anything else (how long can this streak last???)... Early guess that rsoultin is town off of tone of post. I put a lot less stock in this than I would have last year, since there's been plenty of time for her to emulate her posting style as mafia, and I recall her starting to do so anyway before I went on sabbatical. But for the moment I still consider it reason to give a cautious town read. Eden doesn't invite discussion, he doesn't even provide his reasons or basic framework for his read. He also weakens the force of his read significantly by providing doubts, resulting in a weak conclusion as well. Eden's disconnect from the thread and lack of interest in alignments says that Eden is mafia. I disagree entirely. Actually, my analysis is the opposite: the setup speculation felt off but his read on Rsoultin felt pretty much sincere. If he isn't null, he is most likely town than mafia for it. | ||
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On February 16 2016 08:59 Trfel wrote: I guess I should have left this with my above post, but to make my read a bit more clear, this is the post that makes me think that Palmar is town. It's not just that he's irrationally confident that Breshke is town, even without sharing reasons. As mafia, Palmar doesn't push things this way, he just doesn't. It's not a very direct method for scum to go "this guy is scum, this guy is scum, no I'm not going to tell you why but he's definitely scum". For Palmar to go out of his normal playstyle in an indirect manner like this, and then go farther to add that I (Trfel) might be mafia, I'm almost certain it's not in Palmar's mafia mindset. It's such an indirect approach for mafia to take with minimal gain, since it doesn't at all line up mislynches. Anyway, I hope that makes a little sense, I'm bad at explaining stuff. It makes sense, although I don't believe this is strong enough to guarantee a firm town read. Palmar is a competent player and completely capable of shape shifting his meta. But still, yes, it indicates Palmar is probably town. And I think the way you are approaching the game is also townie | ||
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On February 16 2016 09:13 sicklucker wrote: because on a somewhat pointless day one if I suspect someone as being mafia and not a powerole I will target them always. I dont even have to be too sure its just always the safe play You're mafia. ##Vote: sicklucker | ||
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On February 18 2016 01:17 nooniansoong wrote: @GB did you read all of SL's filter or are you just going to stop there because you're 100% on him being scum already? I'm catching up. I saw that post and adding his earlier posts to it I felt he was scum. I'm at page 10 now. I took a break for lunch. But I will catch up entirely until deadline | ||
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On February 16 2016 12:03 Eden1892 wrote: I got halfway through responding to that but decided this whole thing is stupid and pedantic. Not that you are. The conversation is just not doing anything helpful for either of us or (presumably) anybody else. I also feel like I'm being unduly backhanded and snide and would like to stop doing that. Suffice to say that I value trying to 'break' setups however possible, which is why I talk about setups all the time at the beginning of games. I don't think inviting millers to claim is actually going to win the game all by itself, but it's a small advantage that breaks our way, and enough of those piling up matters. I also chime in with reads whenever I have something meaningful, and given enough time, I find meaningful things. You know that and I know you know that, so I'm going to ask you to trust that this will happen again this game. Maybe we should talk about what you found interesting that I didn't. I was kinda interested in that but let my pettiness take over for a bit. I know you talked about those guys already and I could look it up in your filter, but humor me as to what you find interesting in those people you listed? I'm convinced Eden is town | ||
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On February 17 2016 01:45 nooniansoong wrote: Just because your name is boldified in red doesn't mean I think you're scum. Enlighten me what you meant here, kush. This doesn't make sense at all | ||
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On February 17 2016 08:12 Palmar wrote: It's unfortunate that I don't want to post right now. I bet that's not very helpful of me. I hate that you're doing this and I can see you doing it as Mafia | ||
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I'm on page 21 and I'll keep catching up later but I need a break. Can someone summarise what's going on right now for me? | ||
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On February 18 2016 04:00 Trfel wrote: We're basically lynching between Shapelog and sicklucker and maybe Palmar. Not much happening. Shapelog is in the lead, I suggest you take a look at him. My vote is on Sicklucker, but can you direct me to the reasoning of why Shapelog and Palmar are Mafia? I really didn't see anything alignmrent indicative during my read-through | ||
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On February 18 2016 04:10 Shapelog wrote: Can I Explain it? Yes Although I'll take it with a grain of salt | ||
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On February 18 2016 04:13 sicklucker wrote: Gb you realize you have a 100% record of scum reading me in games esp early right? like its not even funny at this point. you do it as mafia too which is annoiyng That's not true, latest games I've been accurately reading you as town because you looked townie. You don't here, at least until I've stopped catching up. And it seems I'm not the only one to think that here. | ||
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On February 18 2016 04:15 Trfel wrote: The reasoning for Palmar being mafia is that his reads are lazy and he's being bad. I think that this reasoning is a bit poor, to say the least. Shapelog is mafia because he hasn't had a push or direction to his play until he became the leading wagon. Only at this point did he show an actual interest in scumreads, and he seems to be flailing wildly instead of actually figuring out who is scum. I don't think Shapelog is the lynch for today. I've seen him droppig some genuine insights that showed fair amount of effort behind it. He could be Mafia but there are far better lynches today | ||
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On February 18 2016 04:25 sicklucker wrote: No no you havent. not even close. even in the pyp game where i was townread by 20/22 players you poped in randomly and said why is no one lynching sicklucker? came one game where you thought i was town. one I didn't even play PYP properly The game where I, Marv and you last played together | ||
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On February 18 2016 04:25 Breshke wrote: I never said they were BS i said i don't see how people were voting you without saying those posts were BS. Did TT's vote come before or after you made that post where you quoted three of your own? I understand GB because he probably hasn't read it. Honestly thought more people were voting you this is weird coming from you since you normally would just not care since you dont like D1 right? Wait did SL claim? | ||
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Ok, and what are your reada? | ||
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On February 18 2016 04:44 nooniansoong wrote: @GB I'm sorry. You deserve a real answer from me. I don't like to do this day 1, even if it's only for my own benefit but here goes. People I am the most suspicious of currently: 2) Shapelog 3)Ticktock 5) Breshke 8) The Shining 9) mdergScott31337 10) Eden1892 12GlowingBear What's your auspicions on Shapelog? Kush my problem here is that you looked very noncommittal, and I remember you having very firm reads since you came back to TLMafia. Your like of engagement looks suspicious to me. | ||
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Answer me. It's important. | ||
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+ claiming "blue" is so easy for Mafia because they are protected against CC's if they do so | ||
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On February 18 2016 05:12 nooniansoong wrote: the one where i vote people who are unreadable. but your recent activity doesn't make me think you are town either. What's wrong with it? | ||
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THEY WHY AREN'T WE LYNCHING SL??? | ||
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On February 18 2016 05:42 Breshke wrote: GB i promise you just leave this to D2. I know what your problem is but it is better to leave it to D2 Meh.... Okay Vote Kush with me then | ||
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I have a pact with him in which I don't lynch him day ones | ||
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On February 18 2016 05:48 sicklucker wrote: can we make this pact after this game? i really hate you right now If you flip town in this game I promise I'll never lynch you day ones | ||
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[b]##Vote: noon[/b\ | ||
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VOTE KUSH | ||
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VOTE KUSH | ||
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On February 18 2016 05:57 Trfel wrote: But why are you calling him scum is the question? I don't really know why he's scum. I just did. | ||
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On February 18 2016 05:54 GlowingBear wrote: Well I'm voting Kush because between Kush and Palmar I sincerely prefer to see dying the guy who admits have a null read on EVERY SINGLE PLAYER and is lynching a townie for a BAD POLICY LYNCH without giving a single FUCK to the Votecount AT EOD [b]##Vote: noon[/b\ | ||
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On February 18 2016 06:07 rsoultin wrote: more to the point, why does gb townread palmar and vote noon there? I didn't townread Palmar, I was ok with the Palmar lynch but I preferred kush's lynch way better. Suddenly everyone piled on Palmar and it felt it was Mafia driven at that moment. | ||
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On February 18 2016 06:14 sicklucker wrote: so instead of being the hammer and deciding the lynch all by yourself you decide to start a 6th wagon on kush with 0% chance of it happening. Ya ok bud you guys gotta get better at playing deadlines 0% chance? He almost got lynched, SL. What are you talking about? | ||
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Anyway, SL, as I said, I wasn't going to lynch scott on day1 and I really didn't hammer him because I thought I could genuinely lynch Kush. | ||
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On February 18 2016 06:27 nooniansoong wrote: People respect Palmar way too much.. GB can I help you with anything? You actually can't, Kush. You've voted me for a policy lynch that doesn't make sense IMO ("I'm killing GB because GB is unreadable") and you could say that because of my early inactivity, but when I came back you decided you should lynch me anyways because my reason to scum read SL was bullshit (you failed to explain why that was bullshit). You don't think that what you're doing is suspicious? Not giving a single read at all and deciding to vote people using the excuse of a policy lynch, then when asked about people you think could be Mafia you bring a list of people you're suspicious but can't say why they are suspicious? You really can't see why I think you're mafia? | ||
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On February 18 2016 06:42 rsoultin wrote: between GB/shining right now their behavior just doesn't line up with how they voted i think i'm inclined to more or less believe you unless i have a reason to think otherwise bresh/trfel have been and likely always will be town for me unless eden's play has greatly changed i don't see him being scum here, either scott/tumble are kinda up in the air for me (;o; i really don't want tumble to be scum...it would be nice to be right on him) and i'd like them to answer questions yeah i need to reread tho Why am I Mafia again? | ||
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On February 18 2016 06:41 nooniansoong wrote: And FURTHER, GB, you have played only 2 games with my since my hiatus. In one of them you were scum. And I refused to give reads at all earlygame. I actually remember you commenting stuff in those two games. Especially the newbie one, you were very contributive.. You were more insightful. And you aren't here. Because you are not commenting stuff. I rarely saw you counterargumenting anything in the thread. Why would you hold your reads, Kush? About SL, can you point out what made you think he was town? Because I can't understand, especially when you just said earlier everyone was null | ||
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On February 18 2016 06:49 rsoultin wrote: the bs about not townreading palmar when you're saying it's a mafia-pushed lynch, and then throwing your vote away I wasn't townreading Palmar, then suddenly his wagon piled on and I thought could be Mafia driven, so I tried to lynch Kush I really don't know how to explain. Like, I thought he was an okay lynch but at the same time his wagon gaining torque felt off? | ||
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Anyway I gotta go now but I will dive you later. | ||
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On February 18 2016 06:56 nooniansoong wrote: @GB I don't liek to share my reads because they are very weak and changing all the time until they become more solidified around d2 usually. Let's see how your d2 will unfold then | ||
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On February 18 2016 06:57 rsoultin wrote: tch yeah i think it just comes down to whether or not i believe that you feel strongly enough about the palmar wagon to ALL CAPS yet still don't feel strongly enough to vote the counterwagon sidelining all this and getting something to eat I didn't want to save Palmar by caps locking people out of it. I wanted to lynch Kush. Getting people off palmar and into Kush felt reasonable to me | ||
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On February 18 2016 06:59 nooniansoong wrote: you didn't even read all of my short filter yet you are screaming for me to get CFD lynched. That's ridic. I don't have to read filters to form reads, kush. If I read the game I've read all players' filters. | ||
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On February 18 2016 07:01 Trfel wrote: I'm fine with GB being mafia. I'm not | ||
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On February 18 2016 07:04 Shapelog wrote: GB talk to me, In a | ||
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On February 19 2016 08:16 The Shining wrote: ##Vote: Glowingbear Why are you voting confirmed town? | ||
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On February 19 2016 08:20 The Shining wrote: Confirmed scum* Un-cc'd vigi isn't confirmed scum. | ||
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On February 19 2016 08:54 nooniansoong wrote: if you don't town yourself by activity i'm going to want to lynch you gb You want to lynch me for every wrong reason since day1 kush Activity was never a tell from me, I don't understand why you're pulling this excuse to try and lynch me | ||
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On February 20 2016 16:08 Tictock wrote: Well... WTF have you done for town GB? Like it can't seriously be a surprise to you that people scumread for doing jack all for 2 days, but draw some pictures and fake claim. Same goes for Tumble. You guys come in and make useless posts >.< What have YOU done for town more than I did? Posting paint drawings in the night doesn't necessarily mean I have done less than you did in this game just because you can be more active than I am. Today is Saturday and I'll have time this afternoon to do stuff But for starters, some clarification: Shining if I claim vigi and get shot at night and flip VT, we can confirm the real vigi day3, thus, reducing the PoE list for lynching mafia. That was my plan. Truffle, my push on Kush isn't illogical. He had 0 reads at EOD and tried to lynch me for a policy lynch that is "GB is unreadable". It is so, so easy, as Mafia, to hide oneself behind this argument to justify a lynch. I will read his filter later to form my read with more basis, but that was my reason to suspect him. Rsoultin flipped her read on me for no fucking reason also. I'll also take a look at her filter, but she might be scum for that. Whenever she has a read on me, it is precise. It's not her fashion, as town, to do such thing like that. | ||
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On February 21 2016 00:55 Trfel wrote: GlowingBear is mafia because he's not freaking out and he's STILL not doing anything, just reacting. Glad to finally be back at a computer so I can vote for him. On February 20 2016 21:46 nooniansoong wrote: There's the hallmark scum gb fake anger I'd love to counter argue this, but it seems I'm Mafia for not getting angry and getting angry at the same time | ||
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On February 21 2016 01:02 Trfel wrote: GlowingBear, who should I vote for if not you, and why? Rsoultin. Her flip on me doesn't make sense at all | ||
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On February 21 2016 01:13 Trfel wrote: Scott31337: Wow, I was really busy and I nearly got lynched. I need to do a ton of work now so that scum doesn't come and get me! [not voting 5 hours to deadline next day] GlowingBear: How does everyone think that I'm scum? Just because I was posting MS Paint pictures doesn't mean I haven't been contributing! Look, I think these people are scum! [still not voting] I do prefer lynching GlowingBear over scott31337, because scott31337 can be hard to read and his play might just be a result of lack of activity. Maybe. Doubtful. But I'm far more confident in GlowingBear being mafia, because of how he isn't pushing anything and is very strongly playing to survive. Truffle, my question is WHY people think I'm Mafia and not HOW people think I'm Mafia. I can understand being suspicious of me because I'm not doing much, but I can't understand what I DID that makes me certain Mafia as you say I am. All I see is broken meta. There are even two people saying that I'm Mafia for complete opposite reasons. One said I've faked anger and one said I'm not freaking out, therefore I'm Mafia. I sincerely don't know how to deal with this | ||
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On February 20 2016 06:17 rsoultin wrote: gb prob is scum but not for the claim #awesomestsoul Why am I scum for? | ||
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On February 21 2016 01:39 rsoultin wrote: you're mafia cause in addition to not being around for anything, you aren't being reactive or making plays like a town!bear even when you are here you're mafia cause you spend hours trolling without putting any effort in, either by reading up or by trying to get reads on people currently present and if you're not mafia it's 100% your fault that you're prob getting lynched today. why do people think you're mafia? lol >< plz What kind of plays do town bear does? You see, there is NOTHING in those reads of yours that is actually a Mafia trait. Just... broken meta, which has being proved that doesn't work on me. Instead, you're fucking scum reading me accordingly to thread sentiment after have being townreading me the whole game. My play hasn't changed since day1. Why scumreading me now? | ||
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On February 21 2016 02:17 rsoultin wrote: lol >< you can't have it both ways i'm either great at reading you or i'm not, so which is it, gb? and i'm talking about the type of plays that you pulled in drams, and in himalayas. conoces? you know, the ones that actually achieved something? Exactly, you're good at reading me, so this shift of your reads is so bad that can't come from a town Rsoultin. Well I've fake claimed vigi because I thought it could help town if it worked. I don't get why this is so scummy to the rest of you | ||
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On February 21 2016 02:18 Shapelog wrote: I remember vividly (I might be wrong) GB that you were very helpful (or more helpful) in the newbie we played until I replaced out. I also remember scum reading the shit out of you that game. In fact, have I ever actually full blown town read you ever? I am sad because I am racist to you i guess. I'm sorry I'm not as helpful as I was at that game but I'm trying to do what I can. Yes I've been wasting time night1 with the paint drawings but I was just trying to have fun, which is the purpose for why I play Mafia In the other hand, I've been pointing out stuff that standa out to my eyes. The most important thing, to me, was kush's policy lynch which felt extremely off. And I've pointed that out. And I'm still doing this. So im not sure how I haven't being playibg at all | ||
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I think Truffle is townie although his push on me is weird I think Tictock is townie for the way he is engaging the game. Shapelog is town. Shining is town. I don't know about Breshke, he sounds townish but he doesn't look very engaged to the thread. Sometimes he comes, comment things and disappears. I thought Kush was Mafia but I'm not sure anymore after reading his filter. He seems very engaged in finding scum especially on how he faces Tictock, so he might be town after all. I think Tumblewood could be Mafia out of PoE. Not really strong reasons against him because nothing stands out from his filter but his images, that can be easily done to get towncred. He has done nothing with those "lots of information" after he posted them, and some of them are distorted interpretation of what people say in thread. I think Rsoultin is Mafia because she can read me well and her flip on me doesn't make sense and is very opportunistic considering she is following thread sentiment. I have no idea about scott but I also don't understand his scum read on me which also feels very opportunistic considering I'm his counter wagon and he hasn't commented a single post from my filter | ||
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On February 21 2016 02:33 nooniansoong wrote: You have no deep thoughts about the game. You just show up pre eod with your simpistic omgus. Mad because people are voting you? Looks like fake anger to me. I'm not mad because people are voting me. I'm starting to get annoyed because people are scum reading me for no reasons or for reasons that doesn't make me Mafia. And I fail to understand it. Why aren't you voting Tictock? | ||
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On February 21 2016 02:27 Shapelog wrote: To me, the fake claim on Vig is meh. Town does not beneficent since I screwed up, and either will now get RBed into hell or very likely NKed..... So you would never actually take a bullet till N3. It also could cause the real Vig to CC, which causes it to fail. Scum does not beneficent because it will get CCed by the vig eventually. You might get A ML, but your trading 1v1 (or i guess 1 and a half?/ for 1 if your a mafia PR.) Really GB, I just want something from you. Something other than the angles at EoD to go, "yeah that guy is town" I do not have that. Maybe you get roleblocked and I die? It could happen. Then the real vigi could claim day3. It would be a very good play because you would have 2 confirmed towbies day3. I didn't put much thought on it to be honest. It just crossed my mind and I did it | ||
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On February 21 2016 02:53 Trfel wrote: If something doesn't make sense from scum or town, it generally means that they messed up, regardless of alignment. And I feel that scum is more careful and less original, therefore they mess up less. But given GlowingBear's play as a whole, and this being one single thing, I think I still want to lynch GlowingBear. It kinda sucks because of the pre-game excuse, but meh Your interpretation of my overall ganeplay is that I e been doing nothing and not being reactive, which certainly isn't true. The only times I was active and not truly engaging stuff was night1 when I started to post drawings. Whenever I came back day1 or day2, I've been trying my best to get my points across in a very straight forward fashion. | ||
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Who is then? | ||
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On February 21 2016 03:10 rsoultin wrote: if i think there's any way in hell you're not mafia here i'll lynch scott ^^ if there's one thing i'm confident of, though, gb, it's that you'll make it pretty obvious you're town if you actually are town So if I'm not mafia and scott is, who is with him? I'm not mafia, dear, and I have no idea what you're expecting from me. I think you could be town after that post of yours, so at least try to work with me under the possibility I'm not scum. | ||
GlowingBear
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GlowingBear
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On February 21 2016 04:58 Shapelog wrote: I suggest if you do not want to make a last ditch effort to save yourself, to make Yugioh/magic cards of the players in this game. Or MS comics. But on a real note, I hate that we basically have 2 afkers (scott, and Tumble) that is getting a pass today b/c GB lynch has more traction. What is worse is that we can not lynch both of them if GB is town. A course we can not look at the fact that votes piled up on him, b/c 9 out 10 times if he is scum his team is bussing. I am not defending GB, He should be. But still there is something unsettling about this lynch. I might be getting cold feet though. What effort do you expect me to do? 100 push-ups? I can't force reads or insights I don't have. I've already said everything I think about this game. But everything I do gets a ton shitty suspicions that isnt even the truth. I'd rather not care because if I do I'll get worked up and nothing will happen because no matter the countless times I've said people are scum reading me for reasons that doesn't make me scum or that doesn't stand for the truth (I'm not doing stuff, I'm not contributing), NOBODY went back to double check their suspicions. | ||
GlowingBear
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GlowingBear
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On March 01 2016 06:06 Damdred wrote: It was really to bad that the games last blue didn't play the last phase really. Or didn't claim after gb claimed i'll post the qts now. To be fair, he is probably facing problems. I know Breshke wouldn't quit the game over nothing. I hope everything is alright | ||
GlowingBear
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On March 01 2016 06:15 rsoultin wrote: ye, tis true he'd have made me break my no fake claim rule in that case lol >< Probably not the best option since you would make only him and yourself up to the lynch. Probably better to cast suspicions on his claim and still consider someone else | ||
GlowingBear
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Still leading the scum win rate | ||
GlowingBear
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On March 01 2016 08:29 justanothertownie wrote: Rsoultin alive in LYLO and not doing shit. That's not suspicious at all :p She did enough | ||
GlowingBear
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On March 01 2016 08:34 justanothertownie wrote: Yes, obviously. But way less than she would have as town. I can't fault anyone for lynching Breshke though. I don't think there was much more she could do as town in that situation? Her main lynch is getting lynched and completely AFK. The only thing she could do more would be questioning other ayers again and again, but I'm not sure if there was much more to ask them. Btw I think trfel, Shapelog, Kush and even Breshke before AFKing played pretty well. This was actually a pretty close game, and if trfel had more time he would find rsoultin I believe | ||
GlowingBear
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On March 01 2016 11:23 sicklucker wrote: tbh i had a hard blue read on breske he was very obvious with the "sl is not blue but we can talk about that tormrrow when i cc him and throw the game" Considering there were three blues out there, I'm sure that wasn't his plan | ||
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On March 03 2016 13:04 rsoultin wrote: lol it wasn't ^^ gb was drunk with his drama friends...he's always hitting on the Fixed. More accurate now | ||
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