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Newbie Student Mafia XIX - Page 19

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Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
January 27 2016 06:57 GMT
#361
On January 27 2016 15:54 Onegu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2016 15:53 Shapelog wrote:
On January 27 2016 15:50 Onegu wrote:
On January 27 2016 15:47 Shapelog wrote:
Also for heavens sakes Town! Shapelog talks to talk. Blue! Shapelog talks to Talk. so Scum! Shapelog prob. talks to Talk (I think).

They All Talk to Talk



Self meta is meta. Bad Newbie. Bad

Is this your new training program?



Yes are you brainwashed yet?

How the fuck am i suppose to know.
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
January 27 2016 06:58 GMT
#362
That is like asking the blind person the lead the group.
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
January 27 2016 06:59 GMT
#363
Even the magic 8 ball won't tell me
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
Eden1892
Profile Joined March 2014
United States5866 Posts
January 27 2016 06:59 GMT
#364
On January 27 2016 11:01 nooniansoong wrote:
pepperminttea has a zero percent chance of people male imo

"neither does eden tbh" - kush 2014
“I like to see myself as the swim instructor that trows kids in the pool shouting at them they should try to not drink too much water.” - Koshi
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
January 27 2016 07:01 GMT
#365
Great Now i have to stay up to see this "Eden"
I am so going to fail the parts of the left side of the brain quiz tomorrow.
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
January 27 2016 07:06 GMT
#366
So JesusIncate is the only person who hasn't posted at all right or am i getting brainwashed?
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8001 Posts
January 27 2016 07:11 GMT
#367
Welcome to the thread Eden
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
Eden1892
Profile Joined March 2014
United States5866 Posts
January 27 2016 07:11 GMT
#368
I skimmed the early stuff. It's a bit late and I don't really feel like reading the thread in a lot of depth right now, but I got a few early reads worth sharing.


- Shapelog is obviously town, and the first thing I want to do when I get the motivation to read this game in detail (which will be tomorrow, hold me to this and don't let me be lazy) is to read the sequence of people scumreading him early while it was the "in" read to give, because I'm almost positive scum were involved in that.

If I actually have to explain this (and if you need it explained, that's okay; newbie game and all), Shapelog's posting was very spontaneous and "error-prone" in the right way. As Onegu put it, "talking about someone's meta before they even post" is in fact a poor use of a townie's time, because you don't need to call attention to the idea that you have a way to read somebody based on meta. Just make the read in either direction when the trigger behavior you're waiting on manifests itself (or doesn't manifest itself when it should).

But a post like that is never going to come from mafia. Mafia players don't think to themselves: "You know, I should post that I have a meta read on kush before he says anything. That will make me look more townie and advance my agenda." Because it doesn't. It's empty words.

An excited townie, however, who is trying to get discussion started and generate meaningful data for themselves and other players to read, might be overeager and start talking about this tell before it manifests, because it's meaningful to them (even if it doesn't do anything yet). And if you read the rest of Shapelog's posts, eagerness and excitement are pretty reasonable descriptors of his emotional state as he plays.

So we can either assume that Shapelog is a bad noob scum player, who also doesn't have anybody on his team to tell him that his early posting isn't doing anything to help, and who also doesn't have a scum coach telling him the same thing... or we can just assume that he is an eager townie, as his posts read.


- Onegu is my current top suspect for a few okay-ish reasons:

1. Not recognizing Shapelog as obvious town. He talks about Shapelog's posts being weird, his posting direction as not helping town, blabla... ignores all the evidence pointing to the conclusion I just gave you from only skimming the thread, but then avoids giving a concrete read on Shapelog when the action is all centered on Shapelog during that sequence I mentioned at the beginning of this post (p13-14 I think is the right section, where Pepperminttea posted). I expect better from "tryhard Onegu" since I genuinely view the Shapelog read as trivially simple for an experienced player to make.

2. Unusually rigid policies for what is okay to use/discuss. This one's a little convoluted, but hopefully I'll make it clear. At several points during Onegu's interaction with Shapelog, there's these posts that basically say "You're doing X thing. X thing is A Bad Thing. Don't do X thing." Referring to some aspects of scumhunting that are variably useful: metagame reading (sometimes great, sometimes bad), setup spec discussion (same), self-meta (granted, this one is pretty bad always). And he's not wrong when he says them. Shapelog's attempted use of metagame reading of kush was not very productive, and setup spec posting is pretty bad in this setup (which I'll explain in a bit). And there's even a conflating motivator here -- Onegu is an experienced player in a newbie game, so you could argue he feels an impetus to steer the newbies toward more "proper" scumhunting avenues.

But the lack of explanation bothers me a lot, especially given that the things he discusses are variably useful and not clearly always bad. Like he says to stop posting about blues, because it only helps mafia. In this case, it's true: since the mafia know the whole setup, the only thing that can really come from the town discussing the setup is blues accidentally slipping up and making clear that they have extra knowledge of the game state (and thus outing blues to mafia). (Mafia can slip in the same way, but it's hard for townies to distinguish whether the slip is blue or red in nature, and besides, mafia tend to be much more careful about their known information; so it's rare for mafia to slip and much more common for blues to do it, making it bad for town.)

^^ See how easy that explanation was? 3-4 lines. But Onegu doesn't even do that, he just says "this is bad don't do it." It belies the "Onegu is trying to help the newbies get better" explanation, since you would expect an explanation for why something is bad if you're trying to get better by having people tell you something is bad.

As such it reads less like "Onegu trying to help the townies" and more like "Onegu trying to jam up potentially useful (from the standpoint of getting town reads) discussion under the guise of being helpful to newbies."


- kush already seems several orders of magnitude more invested than he was in Unoriginal, where he was mafia. And he made the point I did about Shapelog, and made it first, while people were trying to twist it into a scummy thing for Shapelog to be eager and talking a lot. Early TR for him.


- darthfoley seems much more relaxed and spontaneous than he was in Unoriginal, where he was mafia. He also had a couple of salient points he made that I've forgotten and don't care to look up right now. Early TR here as well.




TL;DR:
- Shapelog solid town
- kush, darth early tr's
- Onegu scummy
- There's probably a mafia among the "Shapelog is scummy" crowd from p13-14
“I like to see myself as the swim instructor that trows kids in the pool shouting at them they should try to not drink too much water.” - Koshi
Eden1892
Profile Joined March 2014
United States5866 Posts
January 27 2016 07:12 GMT
#369
On January 27 2016 16:11 darthfoley wrote:
Welcome to the thread Eden

Hello!

I won't be here too much longer for tonight. But it'd be impolite not to say hi!
“I like to see myself as the swim instructor that trows kids in the pool shouting at them they should try to not drink too much water.” - Koshi
Eden1892
Profile Joined March 2014
United States5866 Posts
January 27 2016 07:18 GMT
#370
Oh yeah setup.

(editor's note: this post turned out not to be very helpful, but I'm leaving it for posterity, so the reason why we won't need to discuss setup much this game is clearly spelled out for anyone with questions about it)

Mafia know the whole setup. This means that they will know if we have a doctor or not. Weird nightkills can possibly be explained by medic dodging. Note that this is only useful in the event of a role claim and probably isn't very useful then.

If you're a power role, be careful about setup discussion, and ideally say nothing at all. You have extra info about the game state and that may lead you to say something you "shouldn't" know (if you were VT). Obviously counterclaim if you have to do that, but in general, you're probably better off just not talking about it.

In point of fact, talking about the setup at all is not very useful. The mafia likely won't do anything too stupid with their fakeclaims (if they even fakeclaim) and they know what they have to play around, and it's not like we can make use of any implications from scum behavior (medic dodging), since the mafia are unlikely to make a demonstrably false fakeclaim.

I don't mind that people were trying to glean info out of it before; I think it's probably a townie thing to do. But there's nothing useful in setup speculation this go-round, so I strongly advise against it.
“I like to see myself as the swim instructor that trows kids in the pool shouting at them they should try to not drink too much water.” - Koshi
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8001 Posts
January 27 2016 07:22 GMT
#371
Eden, i've been trying to make exactly the point you just made about Shapelog. The scum Kush meta read thing just makes no sense. I also liked Kush's interaction with Pepperminttea. He is playing a lot more substantively this game imo.

I also think that there was Shapelog mafia pile on, and I'm suspicious of a couple people. I'm interested to see your analysis re p13-14 when you get a chance tomorrow
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8001 Posts
January 27 2016 07:26 GMT
#372
Yea I really like these posts from Eden.

He's probably my strongest TR so far.
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
January 27 2016 07:27 GMT
#373
Hello Eden, Nice to meet you and i will hold you to your promise of activity .

About Onegu, I need to really go and read his filter tbh. From there I can see his train of thought better. I would do it now but it is 2:23 am where i live and I am not going to give half asleep reads.

I agree with your Tr on Deathfy. I missed Kush's point that you talked about but I look tomorrow when i go though the filters.
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
January 27 2016 07:29 GMT
#374
On January 27 2016 16:26 darthfoley wrote:
Yea I really like these posts from Eden.

He's probably my strongest TR so far.

Personally I would like to see a bit more posts before I throw a TR on him.
The fact you just TR off of two posts kinda alarms me a little bit.
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8001 Posts
January 27 2016 07:32 GMT
#375
It's not just two posts. This reminds me very much of the Eden I just played with, who was very good the whole game.

It was a bit of an exaggeration, but I strongly believe quality > quantity. Idc how long your filter is if it's all shit. Eden is a very good town and I think his logic is quite sound in those posts
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8001 Posts
January 27 2016 07:34 GMT
#376
and there are multiple parts of each post. Obviously want to see what he says after a more thorough analysis tomorrow
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
January 27 2016 07:34 GMT
#377
Like sure his above posts are good. But they are 2 posts. And one of them is about set up (which thank you btw Eden for taking the time to explain) I don't think that warrants a strong TR.
Idk you have played with Eden b/4. But to me it sounds like your trying to buddy/pocket him.
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
Onegu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States9695 Posts
January 27 2016 07:36 GMT
#378
On January 27 2016 16:11 Eden1892 wrote:
I skimmed the early stuff. It's a bit late and I don't really feel like reading the thread in a lot of depth right now, but I got a few early reads worth sharing.


- Shapelog is obviously town, and the first thing I want to do when I get the motivation to read this game in detail (which will be tomorrow, hold me to this and don't let me be lazy) is to read the sequence of people scumreading him early while it was the "in" read to give, because I'm almost positive scum were involved in that.

If I actually have to explain this (and if you need it explained, that's okay; newbie game and all), Shapelog's posting was very spontaneous and "error-prone" in the right way. As Onegu put it, "talking about someone's meta before they even post" is in fact a poor use of a townie's time, because you don't need to call attention to the idea that you have a way to read somebody based on meta. Just make the read in either direction when the trigger behavior you're waiting on manifests itself (or doesn't manifest itself when it should).

But a post like that is never going to come from mafia. Mafia players don't think to themselves: "You know, I should post that I have a meta read on kush before he says anything. That will make me look more townie and advance my agenda." Because it doesn't. It's empty words.

An excited townie, however, who is trying to get discussion started and generate meaningful data for themselves and other players to read, might be overeager and start talking about this tell before it manifests, because it's meaningful to them (even if it doesn't do anything yet). And if you read the rest of Shapelog's posts, eagerness and excitement are pretty reasonable descriptors of his emotional state as he plays.

So we can either assume that Shapelog is a bad noob scum player, who also doesn't have anybody on his team to tell him that his early posting isn't doing anything to help, and who also doesn't have a scum coach telling him the same thing... or we can just assume that he is an eager townie, as his posts read.


- Onegu is my current top suspect for a few okay-ish reasons:

1. Not recognizing Shapelog as obvious town. He talks about Shapelog's posts being weird, his posting direction as not helping town, blabla... ignores all the evidence pointing to the conclusion I just gave you from only skimming the thread, but then avoids giving a concrete read on Shapelog when the action is all centered on Shapelog during that sequence I mentioned at the beginning of this post (p13-14 I think is the right section, where Pepperminttea posted). I expect better from "tryhard Onegu" since I genuinely view the Shapelog read as trivially simple for an experienced player to make.

2. Unusually rigid policies for what is okay to use/discuss. This one's a little convoluted, but hopefully I'll make it clear. At several points during Onegu's interaction with Shapelog, there's these posts that basically say "You're doing X thing. X thing is A Bad Thing. Don't do X thing." Referring to some aspects of scumhunting that are variably useful: metagame reading (sometimes great, sometimes bad), setup spec discussion (same), self-meta (granted, this one is pretty bad always). And he's not wrong when he says them. Shapelog's attempted use of metagame reading of kush was not very productive, and setup spec posting is pretty bad in this setup (which I'll explain in a bit). And there's even a conflating motivator here -- Onegu is an experienced player in a newbie game, so you could argue he feels an impetus to steer the newbies toward more "proper" scumhunting avenues.

But the lack of explanation bothers me a lot, especially given that the things he discusses are variably useful and not clearly always bad. Like he says to stop posting about blues, because it only helps mafia. In this case, it's true: since the mafia know the whole setup, the only thing that can really come from the town discussing the setup is blues accidentally slipping up and making clear that they have extra knowledge of the game state (and thus outing blues to mafia). (Mafia can slip in the same way, but it's hard for townies to distinguish whether the slip is blue or red in nature, and besides, mafia tend to be much more careful about their known information; so it's rare for mafia to slip and much more common for blues to do it, making it bad for town.)

^^ See how easy that explanation was? 3-4 lines. But Onegu doesn't even do that, he just says "this is bad don't do it." It belies the "Onegu is trying to help the newbies get better" explanation, since you would expect an explanation for why something is bad if you're trying to get better by having people tell you something is bad.

As such it reads less like "Onegu trying to help the townies" and more like "Onegu trying to jam up potentially useful (from the standpoint of getting town reads) discussion under the guise of being helpful to newbies."


- kush already seems several orders of magnitude more invested than he was in Unoriginal, where he was mafia. And he made the point I did about Shapelog, and made it first, while people were trying to twist it into a scummy thing for Shapelog to be eager and talking a lot. Early TR for him.


- darthfoley seems much more relaxed and spontaneous than he was in Unoriginal, where he was mafia. He also had a couple of salient points he made that I've forgotten and don't care to look up right now. Early TR here as well.




TL;DR:
- Shapelog solid town
- kush, darth early tr's
- Onegu scummy
- There's probably a mafia among the "Shapelog is scummy" crowd from p13-14



1. Why does this make me scummy. I am better than you and can make next level reads you cannot. And the fact that you want to call him basically confirmed town at this point is so fucking random.

2. Why is this AI at all. Ill give you a hint it isnt. Why the fuck do I have to be the one to explain things. If they want to take my word for something without putting critical thinking into things thats on them not me. Me just saying things makes them have to think if what I am saying is correct or not. Im not here to hold their hands. I am here to tell them they are newbies. And then find scum.

You are going on about me saying things then you go and feel the need to then explain what I already said is correct? Then scum read me for not being helpful enough?
Try TL Mafia!!!
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5184 Posts
January 27 2016 07:36 GMT
#379
On January 27 2016 16:32 darthfoley wrote:
It's not just two posts. This reminds me very much of the Eden I just played with, who was very good the whole game.

It was a bit of an exaggeration, but I strongly believe quality > quantity. Idc how long your filter is if it's all shit. Eden is a very good town and I think his logic is quite sound in those posts

Oh yeah without a doubt the logic in those posts are great. Idk maybe it just boils down to a personal opinion.
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
Onegu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States9695 Posts
January 27 2016 07:37 GMT
#380
On January 27 2016 16:36 Shapelog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2016 16:32 darthfoley wrote:
It's not just two posts. This reminds me very much of the Eden I just played with, who was very good the whole game.

It was a bit of an exaggeration, but I strongly believe quality > quantity. Idc how long your filter is if it's all shit. Eden is a very good town and I think his logic is quite sound in those posts

Oh yeah without a doubt the logic in those posts are great. Idk maybe it just boils down to a personal opinion.



No they arent great at all.
Try TL Mafia!!!
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