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Nah i'm not. I'm just glad that someone else sees that you've been overwhelmingly town so far, and I have drawn similar conclusions.
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On January 27 2016 16:36 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 16:11 Eden1892 wrote:
I skimmed the early stuff. It's a bit late and I don't really feel like reading the thread in a lot of depth right now, but I got a few early reads worth sharing.
- Shapelog is obviously town, and the first thing I want to do when I get the motivation to read this game in detail (which will be tomorrow, hold me to this and don't let me be lazy) is to read the sequence of people scumreading him early while it was the "in" read to give, because I'm almost positive scum were involved in that.
If I actually have to explain this (and if you need it explained, that's okay; newbie game and all), Shapelog's posting was very spontaneous and "error-prone" in the right way. As Onegu put it, "talking about someone's meta before they even post" is in fact a poor use of a townie's time, because you don't need to call attention to the idea that you have a way to read somebody based on meta. Just make the read in either direction when the trigger behavior you're waiting on manifests itself (or doesn't manifest itself when it should).
But a post like that is never going to come from mafia. Mafia players don't think to themselves: "You know, I should post that I have a meta read on kush before he says anything. That will make me look more townie and advance my agenda." Because it doesn't. It's empty words.
An excited townie, however, who is trying to get discussion started and generate meaningful data for themselves and other players to read, might be overeager and start talking about this tell before it manifests, because it's meaningful to them (even if it doesn't do anything yet). And if you read the rest of Shapelog's posts, eagerness and excitement are pretty reasonable descriptors of his emotional state as he plays.
So we can either assume that Shapelog is a bad noob scum player, who also doesn't have anybody on his team to tell him that his early posting isn't doing anything to help, and who also doesn't have a scum coach telling him the same thing... or we can just assume that he is an eager townie, as his posts read.
- Onegu is my current top suspect for a few okay-ish reasons:
1. Not recognizing Shapelog as obvious town. He talks about Shapelog's posts being weird, his posting direction as not helping town, blabla... ignores all the evidence pointing to the conclusion I just gave you from only skimming the thread, but then avoids giving a concrete read on Shapelog when the action is all centered on Shapelog during that sequence I mentioned at the beginning of this post (p13-14 I think is the right section, where Pepperminttea posted). I expect better from "tryhard Onegu" since I genuinely view the Shapelog read as trivially simple for an experienced player to make.
2. Unusually rigid policies for what is okay to use/discuss. This one's a little convoluted, but hopefully I'll make it clear. At several points during Onegu's interaction with Shapelog, there's these posts that basically say "You're doing X thing. X thing is A Bad Thing. Don't do X thing." Referring to some aspects of scumhunting that are variably useful: metagame reading (sometimes great, sometimes bad), setup spec discussion (same), self-meta (granted, this one is pretty bad always). And he's not wrong when he says them. Shapelog's attempted use of metagame reading of kush was not very productive, and setup spec posting is pretty bad in this setup (which I'll explain in a bit). And there's even a conflating motivator here -- Onegu is an experienced player in a newbie game, so you could argue he feels an impetus to steer the newbies toward more "proper" scumhunting avenues.
But the lack of explanation bothers me a lot, especially given that the things he discusses are variably useful and not clearly always bad. Like he says to stop posting about blues, because it only helps mafia. In this case, it's true: since the mafia know the whole setup, the only thing that can really come from the town discussing the setup is blues accidentally slipping up and making clear that they have extra knowledge of the game state (and thus outing blues to mafia). (Mafia can slip in the same way, but it's hard for townies to distinguish whether the slip is blue or red in nature, and besides, mafia tend to be much more careful about their known information; so it's rare for mafia to slip and much more common for blues to do it, making it bad for town.)
^^ See how easy that explanation was? 3-4 lines. But Onegu doesn't even do that, he just says "this is bad don't do it." It belies the "Onegu is trying to help the newbies get better" explanation, since you would expect an explanation for why something is bad if you're trying to get better by having people tell you something is bad.
As such it reads less like "Onegu trying to help the townies" and more like "Onegu trying to jam up potentially useful (from the standpoint of getting town reads) discussion under the guise of being helpful to newbies."
- kush already seems several orders of magnitude more invested than he was in Unoriginal, where he was mafia. And he made the point I did about Shapelog, and made it first, while people were trying to twist it into a scummy thing for Shapelog to be eager and talking a lot. Early TR for him.
- darthfoley seems much more relaxed and spontaneous than he was in Unoriginal, where he was mafia. He also had a couple of salient points he made that I've forgotten and don't care to look up right now. Early TR here as well.
TL;DR:
- Shapelog solid town
- kush, darth early tr's
- Onegu scummy
- There's probably a mafia among the "Shapelog is scummy" crowd from p13-14 1. Why does this make me scummy. I am better than you and can make next level reads you cannot. And the fact that you want to call him basically confirmed town at this point is so fucking random. 2. Why is this AI at all. Ill give you a hint it isnt. Why the fuck do I have to be the one to explain things. If they want to take my word for something without putting critical thinking into things thats on them not me. Me just saying things makes them have to think if what I am saying is correct or not. Im not here to hold their hands. I am here to tell them they are newbies. And then find scum. You are going on about me saying things then you go and feel the need to then explain what I already said is correct? Then scum read me for not being helpful enough?
Boring.
Please let me know when you're ready to drop the tough guy charade and play mafia.
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Oh FYI, I haven't read through Onegu's filter so I don't know about Eden's scum read yet.
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Reading me at all is not random. Sure calling me confirmed town does raises sus. (flashbacks to my Tinfoil with Rikotry) for me. But I honestly can see anything wrong with it other than wording. It is almost 3 am though.
But considering how you just kinda OMGUS Eden reasons for that post is sus. as well.
I mean i can understand where he is coming from. He is seeking to know Why you think i am null after so much debate with my alignment. Does that make you scum to me? No. To him, Yes. Please don't degrade into the onegu who doesn't do cases.
But i mean you basically just snapped at him for even remotely calling you scum. This in turn, makes me believe you are scum. so i am defiantly going to your filter 1st
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On January 27 2016 16:41 Eden1892 wrote:
##VOTE: Onegu
Goodnight.
Damm Onegu you scared away the wild Eden.
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On January 27 2016 16:46 Shapelog wrote:Damm Onegu you scared away the wild Eden.
Good he is being bad right now.
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On January 27 2016 16:45 Shapelog wrote:
Reading me at all is not random. Sure calling me confirmed town does raises sus. (flashbacks to my Tinfoil with Rikotry) for me. But I honestly can see anything wrong with it other than wording. It is almost 3 am though.
But considering how you just kinda OMGUS Eden reasons for that post is sus. as well.
I mean i can understand where he is coming from. He is seeking to know Why you think i am null after so much debate with my alignment. Does that make you scum to me? No. To him, Yes. Please don't degrade into the onegu who doesn't do cases.
But i mean you basically just snapped at him for even remotely calling you scum. This in turn, makes me believe you are scum. so i am defiantly going to your filter 1st
I havent made a read on him yet except bad
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On January 27 2016 16:36 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 16:11 Eden1892 wrote:
I skimmed the early stuff. It's a bit late and I don't really feel like reading the thread in a lot of depth right now, but I got a few early reads worth sharing.
- Shapelog is obviously town, and the first thing I want to do when I get the motivation to read this game in detail (which will be tomorrow, hold me to this and don't let me be lazy) is to read the sequence of people scumreading him early while it was the "in" read to give, because I'm almost positive scum were involved in that.
If I actually have to explain this (and if you need it explained, that's okay; newbie game and all), Shapelog's posting was very spontaneous and "error-prone" in the right way. As Onegu put it, "talking about someone's meta before they even post" is in fact a poor use of a townie's time, because you don't need to call attention to the idea that you have a way to read somebody based on meta. Just make the read in either direction when the trigger behavior you're waiting on manifests itself (or doesn't manifest itself when it should).
But a post like that is never going to come from mafia. Mafia players don't think to themselves: "You know, I should post that I have a meta read on kush before he says anything. That will make me look more townie and advance my agenda." Because it doesn't. It's empty words.
An excited townie, however, who is trying to get discussion started and generate meaningful data for themselves and other players to read, might be overeager and start talking about this tell before it manifests, because it's meaningful to them (even if it doesn't do anything yet). And if you read the rest of Shapelog's posts, eagerness and excitement are pretty reasonable descriptors of his emotional state as he plays.
So we can either assume that Shapelog is a bad noob scum player, who also doesn't have anybody on his team to tell him that his early posting isn't doing anything to help, and who also doesn't have a scum coach telling him the same thing... or we can just assume that he is an eager townie, as his posts read.
- Onegu is my current top suspect for a few okay-ish reasons:
1. Not recognizing Shapelog as obvious town. He talks about Shapelog's posts being weird, his posting direction as not helping town, blabla... ignores all the evidence pointing to the conclusion I just gave you from only skimming the thread, but then avoids giving a concrete read on Shapelog when the action is all centered on Shapelog during that sequence I mentioned at the beginning of this post (p13-14 I think is the right section, where Pepperminttea posted). I expect better from "tryhard Onegu" since I genuinely view the Shapelog read as trivially simple for an experienced player to make.
2. Unusually rigid policies for what is okay to use/discuss. This one's a little convoluted, but hopefully I'll make it clear. At several points during Onegu's interaction with Shapelog, there's these posts that basically say "You're doing X thing. X thing is A Bad Thing. Don't do X thing." Referring to some aspects of scumhunting that are variably useful: metagame reading (sometimes great, sometimes bad), setup spec discussion (same), self-meta (granted, this one is pretty bad always). And he's not wrong when he says them. Shapelog's attempted use of metagame reading of kush was not very productive, and setup spec posting is pretty bad in this setup (which I'll explain in a bit). And there's even a conflating motivator here -- Onegu is an experienced player in a newbie game, so you could argue he feels an impetus to steer the newbies toward more "proper" scumhunting avenues.
But the lack of explanation bothers me a lot, especially given that the things he discusses are variably useful and not clearly always bad. Like he says to stop posting about blues, because it only helps mafia. In this case, it's true: since the mafia know the whole setup, the only thing that can really come from the town discussing the setup is blues accidentally slipping up and making clear that they have extra knowledge of the game state (and thus outing blues to mafia). (Mafia can slip in the same way, but it's hard for townies to distinguish whether the slip is blue or red in nature, and besides, mafia tend to be much more careful about their known information; so it's rare for mafia to slip and much more common for blues to do it, making it bad for town.)
^^ See how easy that explanation was? 3-4 lines. But Onegu doesn't even do that, he just says "this is bad don't do it." It belies the "Onegu is trying to help the newbies get better" explanation, since you would expect an explanation for why something is bad if you're trying to get better by having people tell you something is bad.
As such it reads less like "Onegu trying to help the townies" and more like "Onegu trying to jam up potentially useful (from the standpoint of getting town reads) discussion under the guise of being helpful to newbies."
- kush already seems several orders of magnitude more invested than he was in Unoriginal, where he was mafia. And he made the point I did about Shapelog, and made it first, while people were trying to twist it into a scummy thing for Shapelog to be eager and talking a lot. Early TR for him.
- darthfoley seems much more relaxed and spontaneous than he was in Unoriginal, where he was mafia. He also had a couple of salient points he made that I've forgotten and don't care to look up right now. Early TR here as well.
TL;DR:
- Shapelog solid town
- kush, darth early tr's
- Onegu scummy
- There's probably a mafia among the "Shapelog is scummy" crowd from p13-14 1. Why does this make me scummy. I am better than you and can make next level reads you cannot. And the fact that you want to call him basically confirmed town at this point is so fucking random. 2. Why is this AI at all. Ill give you a hint it isnt. Why the fuck do I have to be the one to explain things. If they want to take my word for something without putting critical thinking into things thats on them not me. Me just saying things makes them have to think if what I am saying is correct or not. Im not here to hold their hands. I am here to tell them they are newbies. And then find scum.
You are going on about me saying things then you go and feel the need to then explain what I already said is correct? Then scum read me for not being helpful enough?
Eh to me it sounds OMGUS. Might just be me though. Like it is mainly the part where you basically swear at him for shit.
Prob. a Tone thing. Bad Vet, Bad.
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On January 27 2016 16:38 darthfoley wrote:
Nah i'm not. I'm just glad that someone else sees that you've been overwhelmingly town so far, and I have drawn similar conclusions.
Eh, fine, I can't really prove it. But you are going on my watch/filter dive list.
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So for those who care, Onegu's responses are terrible because:
1. He literally responds to my claim that Shapelog is an easy town read with "I'm better than you and capable of making next-level reads you can't make," while not having a read on Shapelog either way. He attempts to leverage some kind of perceived skill advantage to shoot down my opinion, but he gives no meaningful comment on whether he actually disagrees with the opinion or not (calling it "so fucking random" isn't meaningful). It's another angle Onegu appears to want to use to shut down various lines of discussion, but when he doesn't even seem to have a line of discussion he wants to pursue, what good is that for anybody?
2. He essentially says here that he isn't shutting down various lines of discussion to help guide newbies. He just wants to call people bad and then find scum.
If you're an astute reader -- indeed, a reader at all -- you will notice that Onegu has only satisfied the "call people bad" half of that. No scum reads -- barely anything that would be considered a read at all.
Where you at Onegu? If you're being such a try hard scum killer this game why is it that all I see from you is shouting newbies down and no reads?
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Well it is 3 am,
See you in 3-5 hours chaps.
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Look right now even. He has nothing to say except to call people bad. He's in the thread while real, meaningful reads are being given, and he's pointedly not doing anything constructive. And we're supposed to believe this is tryhard town Onegu? Please.
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On January 27 2016 16:59 Eden1892 wrote:
So for those who care, Onegu's responses are terrible because:
1. He literally responds to my claim that Shapelog is an easy town read with "I'm better than you and capable of making next-level reads you can't make," while not having a read on Shapelog either way. He attempts to leverage some kind of perceived skill advantage to shoot down my opinion, but he gives no meaningful comment on whether he actually disagrees with the opinion or not (calling it "so fucking random" isn't meaningful). It's another angle Onegu appears to want to use to shut down various lines of discussion, but when he doesn't even seem to have a line of discussion he wants to pursue, what good is that for anybody?
2. He essentially says here that he isn't shutting down various lines of discussion to help guide newbies. He just wants to call people bad and then find scum.
If you're an astute reader -- indeed, a reader at all -- you will notice that Onegu has only satisfied the "call people bad" half of that. No scum reads -- barely anything that would be considered a read at all.
Where you at Onegu? If you're being such a try hard scum killer this game why is it that all I see from you is shouting newbies down and no reads?
I have reads. Tumbleweed and Tea are mafia reads. Mexican and kush are town reads. Rest are in null catagory.
And yes when people are being bad I will tell them they are bad. I am not going to give shape a town read. My next level read is that he is completely null doing scummy things.
And yes when people are being bad I will tell them. Then I will find scum.
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On January 27 2016 17:01 Eden1892 wrote:
Look right now even. He has nothing to say except to call people bad. He's in the thread while real, meaningful reads are being given, and he's pointedly not doing anything constructive. And we're supposed to believe this is tryhard town Onegu? Please.
You are being bad
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Oh and trfel looks scummy to me also.
You obviously didnt actually read my large stream of thoughts post.
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On January 27 2016 17:01 Eden1892 wrote:
Look right now even. He has nothing to say except to call people bad. He's in the thread while real, meaningful reads are being given, and he's pointedly not doing anything constructive. And we're supposed to believe this is tryhard town Onegu? Please.
Eh i let you guys duel. It is 3 am. I am done.
For shapelog in da future:
Catch up
Filter Drive:
Onegu
Deathfy
Kush
TW - I want to vist that scum case on me again.
Low active people.
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I am starting to fully understand the townie reads on Shapelog. Good reasoning and critical thinking @Eden1892
Onegu has seemed slightly scummy, and he's definitely not a cooperative player.
There's still something sketchy about PepperMintTea in my mind though.
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Ok I'll grant that you do say Trfel is scummy without much ambiguity near the end of the train of thought post. It's hard to count that for much when you apparently forgot that read in your response to me though.
And you named mex and tea reads just now but said nothing to that effect in the post. If anything you implied mex was scum. Your comments on tea and tumbleweed weren't clearly indicative of any opinion.
Do you care to explain these discrepancies?
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EPT
