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On January 08 2016 06:10 The Shining wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 05:57 NocturneMage wrote:On January 08 2016 05:29 The Shining wrote:
The vote count looks bad btw. Votes just piled on Slam. Obviously I'll look like shit if he flips scum for saying this but is this really a bus? I guess I just feel weird because all my scum reads are voting Slam and 3 of my town reads aren't voting yet. I would like to start a train on Ritoky or Palmar, the question is, who else is willing to think things through and also book their ticket? Hmm. Can you answer my question about the similarities between here and Dark Tournament? It doesn't seem like many ppl are here. Palm is afking the lynch because he has a conference today apparently. Why is he scum? Your points aren't bad against ritoky either but deciding if they actually make him scum is difficult. I've been asking myself why he wasn't shot if he had a gun, tbh. No one was really scumming him until you came in, iirc.
Well like I said, I picked up on it from his tone, the way he changes his reads mainly and there was a parallel between that and fullmetal so I just mainly read his filter several times until I tripped up on the reads list and saw his reads. I was told his trolling was NAI, whatever. To be honest, I think this being my first large game I've spent 90% of my time on this game reading the damn material and 10% actually posting. It's annoying but it is what it is. IDK.
In his last response to me, summarising in a few sentences it boils down to him not being straightforward with Damdred or now, myself.
He's using WIFOM to defend himself when (part of) my argument is that he deferred to the Holyflare reads at daybreak, and he's saying that my case is based on at night, yeah part of that is, but the critical parts are during the day so that's how he's twisting things right now.
Why didn't he just tell Damdred then "in spite of my reads and holyflare reads, I shot an unreadable."
That is a straightforward statement taking responsibility for what you did, that is pretty town indicative.
Why did he say at that point that he relied on his reads and Holyflare reads and then deferred to Holyflare based on one post when in reality Holyflare made continuous posts in the night.
Why did it have to take me casing him to answer that now.
In that instance he shifted the responsibility and conveniently, HF had been NKed. That is mafia indicative.
there is a difference.
I think another fact you have to consider is looking at what Slam is flipping and aligning that (and the GB flip) to a lesser extent with what mafia need to do. But I argued before that when a mafia flip saves another player he's likely mafia, and you had that on top of how Slam had been playing long before that cycle.
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On January 08 2016 06:20 The Shining wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 06:10 NocturneMage wrote:On January 08 2016 06:02 The Shining wrote:On January 08 2016 05:39 ObiWanShinobi wrote:On January 08 2016 05:29 The Shining wrote:
The vote count looks bad btw. Votes just piled on Slam. Obviously I'll look like shit if he flips scum for saying this but is this really a bus? I guess I just feel weird because all my scum reads are voting Slam and 3 of my town reads aren't voting yet. It doesn't matter if slam isn't doing anything. I mean, I guess. It does bring a little credit to the theory of him being a scum PR and that's why scum would bus GB over him but Idk. Did we really have two scum up for lynxh last phase? If he was a scum pr, why would he not be trying in any capacity whatsoever?Meh I guess it could point in the direction of scum and he just doesn't wanna give anything away. I have a mechanical explanation for this. Because it depends on the PR. Look at the blues we have then (cop, JK), both investigative roles. Guess what was lynched then? The vanilla scum. What was disposable at the time? Vanilla and vig. Now? Cop is gone. What is expendable now? GF, Vig. I would be willing to put money down that Alakaslam is either the GF or the Vig, and not the two remaining roles needed for them. This is just classic mafia strategy, take out the investigatives before they are found out. If I'm not mistaken, the vig shot on n1 & n2, which was why there were more NKs. Why would they need the vig alive for n3? Only 2 ppl were nkd yesterday. And although this does make sense, even though the cop is gone, why would scum not want the GF to live? Once the gf flips, the probable green checks go from 75% to confirmed town.
(btw not ignoring your Palmar/Dark Tournament questions)
what I am trying to say here is that they wouldn't need the vig alive. that they are protecting the roles they need going forward. and that Slam (gameplay aside) is not someone they need going forward, ergo, he's the gf or vig.
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well you're in the tunnel on me again (happened before); annoying. i have said what i did, if you don't like it you're wrong.
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On January 08 2016 06:32 NocturneMage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 06:20 The Shining wrote:On January 08 2016 06:10 NocturneMage wrote:On January 08 2016 06:02 The Shining wrote:On January 08 2016 05:39 ObiWanShinobi wrote:On January 08 2016 05:29 The Shining wrote:
The vote count looks bad btw. Votes just piled on Slam. Obviously I'll look like shit if he flips scum for saying this but is this really a bus? I guess I just feel weird because all my scum reads are voting Slam and 3 of my town reads aren't voting yet. It doesn't matter if slam isn't doing anything. I mean, I guess. It does bring a little credit to the theory of him being a scum PR and that's why scum would bus GB over him but Idk. Did we really have two scum up for lynxh last phase? If he was a scum pr, why would he not be trying in any capacity whatsoever?Meh I guess it could point in the direction of scum and he just doesn't wanna give anything away. I have a mechanical explanation for this. Because it depends on the PR. Look at the blues we have then (cop, JK), both investigative roles. Guess what was lynched then? The vanilla scum. What was disposable at the time? Vanilla and vig. Now? Cop is gone. What is expendable now? GF, Vig. I would be willing to put money down that Alakaslam is either the GF or the Vig, and not the two remaining roles needed for them. This is just classic mafia strategy, take out the investigatives before they are found out. If I'm not mistaken, the vig shot on n1 & n2, which was why there were more NKs. Why would they need the vig alive for n3? Only 2 ppl were nkd yesterday. And although this does make sense, even though the cop is gone, why would scum not want the GF to live? Once the gf flips, the probable green checks go from 75% to confirmed town. (btw not ignoring your Palmar/Dark Tournament questions) what I am trying to say here is that they wouldn't need the vig alive. that they are protecting the roles they need going forward. and that Slam (gameplay aside) is not someone they need going forward, ergo, he's the gf or vig.
So you seem convinced both Slam and ritoky are scum then. Why not take the Slam lynch if he's scum instead of trying to shenanny onto ritoky?
And your theory only makes sense if Slam is GF. If he was vig and already used his two shots, there would have been no reason to vote onto GB over him since they're both essentially mafia vanilla at that point. And GB arguably did more than slam before he fell off.
Palmar was one of the main cases on the GB wagon, too. Are you thinking he bussed him then?
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i think when you tunneled me last time and i was town that you were town as well, so i can see this coming from town.
i am actually sketched out by damdred the most from this and may actually start rethinking my procedurally confirmed read on him and 1gu as a result. he is kinda leaving his options open on me when i think he should know i am always town. which could be him posturing to side with me or ML me depending on thread sentiment....like he should be REALLY certain i am town at this point.
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"i can see this coming from town" -> i still think you're a lot less likely than others but you're not dunk scum.
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On January 08 2016 06:17 ritoky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 05:52 NocturneMage wrote:On January 08 2016 05:20 ritoky wrote:everything i typed during the night phase i had the gun was wifom. everything. your entire case is from that night phase. ritoky, why was it wifom, that makes no sense? On January 03 2016 11:08 ritoky wrote:
point a:
the plan is to spend a lot of the night trying to sound like i am shooting damdred or onegu so that if either is mafia i am likely roleblocked which confirms to me there is at least 1 between them. if i am not roleblocked it reveals mafia didn't care and both are likely town. it yielded tons of information giving me basically 2 confirmed towns so i think the play was overall fine, especially since the 2 confirmed towns are ML candidates for doing some dumb fake claim stuff.
point b:
damdred: "you never listen to me even though you can read me well"
ritoky: "yup"
point c:
i snap claimed as vigi (within the first day/night cycle) too. i claim with a gun, i think it is superior in 90% of cases.
point d:
yes i am frustrated that the jk is not protecting obvious town. aren't you? oh wait, you didn't find those people obvious town. my bad, how's the holyflare push going?
anyways i should have shot slam, and that's on me. it's not like i clearly stated multiple times that i was wifoming all night to try and place mafia under the illusion i was shooting between gu and damdred. you're entitled to your opinion though. it's just wrong. why did i shoot moosy over slam? hf made a list of 3 that i liked and you quoted so clearly you saw it, i chose from the list. if slam flips mafia after gb i look like shit and an idiot and that's on me. but tbh i don't tend to look like shit and an idiot as mafia i would rather shoot my partner and look amazing like i did to palmar once before. this all stems from omgus since i poe'd you, which makes me laugh and probably just makes you mafia. That's selective reasoning at best. (1) First my case was not just the night, it was also based on your response to Damdred at the daypost. Your response to him at daybreak was to shift responsibility to Holyflare by saying you trusted his reads after considering your own. Since you don't like my formatting in the actual case, let's bring the operative quotes to the front. On January 03 2016 08:11 ritoky wrote:
because i read you town, and i figured if 1 of you and onegu is mafia or both are mafia, then i am getting roleblocked and i know it. if both of you are town they are gonna let my bullet through so i started working on other people to shoot. and between myself and hf i arrived at moosy and slam. i sent about 9 pms to the mods....i really wish i had shot slam now. Damdred wanted you to listen to him but it's not you disregarding him that makes you mafia. That part doesn't even address my question. What makes you mafia is that you disregarded your own reads and stated you trusted Holyflare AFTER saying between myself and HF I arrived at Moosy and Slam. THIS WAS DONE AFTER THE DAYPOST so using WIFOM to defend yourself/discussing Onegu and Damdred is actually irrelevant. Relevant quote. On January 03 2016 08:15 ritoky wrote:
because i was realllllly sure hf was town and i had a lot of faith that he isn't this wrong as town so i trusted his reads the most (2) People can wifom the shot as either alignment. I covered that in the previous point so moving on, sorry, that does not make you any more town. (3) You are stating that you chose from a list of 3 Holyflare put out. On January 08 2016 05:20 ritoky wrote:
why did i shoot moosy over slam? hf made a list of 3 that i liked and you quoted so clearly you saw it, i chose from the list. if slam flips mafia after gb i look like shit and an idiot and that's on me. but tbh i don't tend to look like shit and an idiot as mafia i would rather shoot my partner and look amazing like i did to palmar once before. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. On January 02 2016 08:09 Holyflare wrote:On January 02 2016 08:09 GlowingBear wrote:
Onegu should be shot tonight. Then we decide about Damdred. No you shoot damdred and lynch onegu. On January 02 2016 09:01 Holyflare wrote:On January 02 2016 09:00 ritoky wrote:
tbh i am mad....that might be because the ibuprofen didn't kill the headache or cuz of this mess; but stop with the woe is me shit if you're town; i gotta figure out this pile of mess in 23 hours. They're both probably town there's nothing to work out. Shoot slam please. On January 02 2016 11:21 Holyflare wrote:
Slam/GB/Moosy are all good shot targets On January 02 2016 11:47 Holyflare wrote:On January 02 2016 11:45 Holyflare wrote:Game is easy: Sl/trfel/palmar (red checked by koshi or kush depending)/kush (just look at this post below if he's not cop) +1 On December 30 2015 21:16 nooniansoong wrote:
I'm taking tt being red pretty hard. Second game in a row i too easily towned him.
Bf...I'm conflicted. His logic is so weird. Too weird to be scum maybe?
Here's some self meta for you guys that suspect me. If I were scum there's no way I would have read this whole game. Basically i like your list Forgot slam he's mafia. Holyflare DID NOT JUST make a list of 3 and this is where you are distorting the facts. He STATED MULTIPLE TIMES OVER THE COURSE OF THE NIGHT what his preferences were. Clearly you chose to make the shortlist your focus, and that's called selective reasoning. If you trusted his reads so much why weren't you paying attention to all the information he provided?this all stems from omgus since i poe'd you, which makes me laugh and probably just makes you mafia. Finally OMGUS comes from both alignments and characterising it as exclusively mafia actually makes you mafia. you read it, but you didn't comprehend it i think you interpreted it as "i wifomed the shot" not "i wifomed all my posts to make it appear i was shooting where i wasn't". you should read it again or maybe you're just constructing a narrative because you're in a shit spot, i don't really know. so let's try and rephrase this for you but you're gonna find largely the same answer. that read post you're on about? that's not my reads that night.it's a fabircation that's wifom outside of the top block made purely to indicate at the bottom that i think there's a mafia between gu and damdred to imply i am shooting there. again a lot of this is already in my filter, you just selectively dodged around it, none of this is new information. in regards to hf and my reads, hf gave a list of 3 that i took to heart. you can say he exclaimed a preference all you want, hf told me to shoot quite a few people since i announced i had a gun (i can cherrypick other posts of him telling me to shoot other people as well including your slot). i took that list and narrowed it to 2, because gb was posting shit and i figured i can actually get a read on that. between slam and moosy there's not really any separation tbh. slam had done 1 of 3 town tells i have on him but usually does all 3 as town, i told moosy i was going to shoot him and he had a shit reaction. i chose the guy with the shit reaction and was wrong. the omgus calling me mafia probably just makes you mafia because i have a lot of town reads and you're not one of them. you're also cherrypicking pretty heavily to form a narrative that has already been talked about and contort it into a way that makes me look bad.
You're the one in the hot seat, not me. You need to survive, not me. I'll gladly sacrifice myself to the gods 
And like I said before WIFOM is completely irrelevant to my argument so you bringing it up again isn't helping you (resolve this) in the least.
And I'm not cherrypicking. I literally combed his filter, and took every post he had. You are the one that did the cherry picking to fit your response as to why you shot Moosy
Additionally Holyflare told you to shoot Alakaslam. Twice.
Final statement of your response.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
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On phone fínt know if ill be home Veftré the lynch
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On phone don't know if I'll be home before the lynch
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On January 08 2016 06:39 ritoky wrote:
i think when you tunneled me last time and i was town that you were town as well, so i can see this coming from town.
i am actually sketched out by damdred the most from this and may actually start rethinking my procedurally confirmed read on him and 1gu as a result. he is kinda leaving his options open on me when i think he should know i am always town. which could be him posturing to side with me or ML me depending on thread sentiment....like he should be REALLY certain i am town at this point.
If you're sketched about damdred, what does that do to your TR of me? Since the basis of it is because Damdred said so. Would that mean he has tmi? Or scum buddies? Or are you just being paranoid?
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Idk why you wouldn't take it as a compliment for your scum game ritoky.
Like really though I'm not lynching you today and I have to think through all posibilities.
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On January 08 2016 06:46 The Shining wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 06:39 ritoky wrote:
i think when you tunneled me last time and i was town that you were town as well, so i can see this coming from town.
i am actually sketched out by damdred the most from this and may actually start rethinking my procedurally confirmed read on him and 1gu as a result. he is kinda leaving his options open on me when i think he should know i am always town. which could be him posturing to side with me or ML me depending on thread sentiment....like he should be REALLY certain i am town at this point. If you're sketched about damdred, what does that do to your TR of me? Since the basis of it is because Damdred said so. Would that mean he has tmi? Or scum buddies? Or are you just being paranoid?
dunno yet, still thinking about it tbh....like if i am just wrong on my read and mafia would take a risk like that, and who would do that.....because i really believe damdred should be at a point on day 3 where he understands i can't be mafia ever, and he should know why.
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[QUOTE]On January 08 2016 06:38 The Shining wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 08 2016 06:32 NocturneMage wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 08 2016 06:20 The Shining wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 08 2016 06:10 NocturneMage wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 08 2016 06:02 The Shining wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 08 2016 05:39 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 08 2016 05:29 The Shining wrote:
The vote count looks bad btw. Votes just piled on Slam. Obviously I'll look like shit if he flips scum for saying this but is this really a bus? I guess I just feel weird because all my scum reads are voting Slam and 3 of my town reads aren't voting yet.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter if slam isn't doing anything.[/QUOTE]
I mean, I guess. It does bring a little credit to the theory of him being a scum PR and that's why scum would bus GB over him but Idk. Did we really have two scum up for lynxh last phase? If he was a scum pr, why would he not be trying in any capacity whatsoever?
Meh I guess it could point in the direction of scum and he just doesn't wanna give anything away.[/QUOTE]
I have a mechanical explanation for this.
Because it depends on the PR. Look at the blues we have then (cop, JK), both investigative roles. Guess what was lynched then? The vanilla scum. What was disposable at the time? Vanilla and vig.
Now? Cop is gone. What is expendable now? GF, Vig.
I would be willing to put money down that Alakaslam is either the GF or the Vig, and not the two remaining roles needed for them.
This is just classic mafia strategy, take out the investigatives before they are found out. [/QUOTE]
If I'm not mistaken, the vig shot on n1 & n2, which was why there were more NKs. Why would they need the vig alive for n3? Only 2 ppl were nkd yesterday.
And although this does make sense, even though the cop is gone, why would scum not want the GF to live? Once the gf flips, the probable green checks go from 75% to confirmed town.[/QUOTE]
(btw not ignoring your Palmar/Dark Tournament questions)
what I am trying to say here is that they wouldn't need the vig alive. that they are protecting the roles they need going forward. and that Slam (gameplay aside) is not someone they need going forward, ergo, he's the gf or vig. [/QUOTE]
So you seem convinced both Slam and ritoky are scum then. Why not take the Slam lynch if he's scum instead of trying to shenanny onto ritoky?
From a gameplay perspective, look at the resistance being met between pushing the two and who is doing what right now. There's zero resistance to the Slam lynch. ritoky is back in here trying to backtrack on what he did day 3. There's a sense of urgency and survival.
[quote]And your theory only makes sense if Slam is GF. If he was vig and already used his two shots, there would have been no reason to vote onto GB over him since they're both essentially mafia vanilla at that point. And GB arguably did more than slam before he fell off.
Palmar was one of the main cases on the GB wagon, too. Are you thinking he bussed him then? [/QUOTE]
Absolutely.
Palmar is mafia for early gameplay, with which not one, not two, but FOUR people called him out on, all for whom were dead after the first two nights, and it was how I felt confirmed, after reading his filter back and forth the first two cycles. I realise people say nightkills are WIFOM, I, anyone, can rubbish an argument on one person on one night. Four players in two nights? One of whom had a load of scumreads on him too (Vivax). Ehhhhh, something's going on and it shouldn't be ignored.
Additionally there were three individuals, two of whom are dead now that accused Palmar of distorting their gameplay/meta/etc and I tried to point that out either night 2 or day 3. ExO had a back and forth with him and I think ExO is town and Palmar's responses were clearly trying to get underneath him instead of breaking the issues down/meeting in the middle etc.
Additionally Artanis (and one other person???) mentioned he can talk his way out of a lynch. And I'm quite confident now that's exactly what he did.
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click preview before you post, it helps
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o wow, i never voted. i thought i did that like 2 days ago?
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On January 08 2016 06:38 The Shining wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 06:32 NocturneMage wrote:On January 08 2016 06:20 The Shining wrote:On January 08 2016 06:10 NocturneMage wrote:On January 08 2016 06:02 The Shining wrote:On January 08 2016 05:39 ObiWanShinobi wrote:On January 08 2016 05:29 The Shining wrote:
The vote count looks bad btw. Votes just piled on Slam. Obviously I'll look like shit if he flips scum for saying this but is this really a bus? I guess I just feel weird because all my scum reads are voting Slam and 3 of my town reads aren't voting yet. It doesn't matter if slam isn't doing anything. I mean, I guess. It does bring a little credit to the theory of him being a scum PR and that's why scum would bus GB over him but Idk. Did we really have two scum up for lynxh last phase? If he was a scum pr, why would he not be trying in any capacity whatsoever?Meh I guess it could point in the direction of scum and he just doesn't wanna give anything away. I have a mechanical explanation for this. Because it depends on the PR. Look at the blues we have then (cop, JK), both investigative roles. Guess what was lynched then? The vanilla scum. What was disposable at the time? Vanilla and vig. Now? Cop is gone. What is expendable now? GF, Vig. I would be willing to put money down that Alakaslam is either the GF or the Vig, and not the two remaining roles needed for them. This is just classic mafia strategy, take out the investigatives before they are found out. If I'm not mistaken, the vig shot on n1 & n2, which was why there were more NKs. Why would they need the vig alive for n3? Only 2 ppl were nkd yesterday. And although this does make sense, even though the cop is gone, why would scum not want the GF to live? Once the gf flips, the probable green checks go from 75% to confirmed town. (btw not ignoring your Palmar/Dark Tournament questions) what I am trying to say here is that they wouldn't need the vig alive. that they are protecting the roles they need going forward. and that Slam (gameplay aside) is not someone they need going forward, ergo, he's the gf or vig. So you seem convinced both Slam and ritoky are scum then. Why not take the Slam lynch if he's scum instead of trying to shenanny onto ritoky?
From a gameplay perspective, look at the resistance being met between pushing the two and who is doing what right now. There's zero resistance to the Slam lynch. ritoky is back in here trying to backtrack on what he did day 3. There's a sense of urgency and survival.
And your theory only makes sense if Slam is GF. If he was vig and already used his two shots, there would have been no reason to vote onto GB over him since they're both essentially mafia vanilla at that point. And GB arguably did more than slam before he fell off.
Palmar was one of the main cases on the GB wagon, too. Are you thinking he bussed him then?
Absolutely.
Palmar is mafia for early gameplay, with which not one, not two, but FOUR people called him out on, all for whom were dead after the first two nights, and it was how I felt confirmed, after reading his filter back and forth the first two cycles. If I were to use a contrasting point, let's take Dark Tournament where Palmar used a real ragged way - the sexy filter method - to figure out who was mafia and placed the vote on mafia. He moved the game forward using a basic argument on minimal amount of time even though he did not lead the lynch.
I realise people say nightkills are WIFOM, I, anyone, can rubbish an argument on one person on one night. Four players in two nights? One of whom had several scumreads on him too IIRC (Vivax). Ehhhhh, something's going on and it shouldn't be ignored. And I don't know why people are ignoring it.
Additionally there were three individuals, two of whom are dead now that accused Palmar of distorting their gameplay/meta/etc and I tried to point that out either night 2 or day 3. ExO had a back and forth with him and I think ExO is town and Palmar's responses were clearly trying to get underneath him instead of breaking the issues down/meeting in the middle etc.
Additionally Artanis (and one other person???) mentioned he can talk his way out of a lynch. And I'm quite confident now that's exactly what he did last cycle.
Also there is a sense of urgency/survival in his posts and he got the townreads he needed to survive.
Even ignoring roles/mechanics, there's massive difference in the reactions from both wagons.
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Vote Count - Day 4
Alakaslam (9): Onegu, Palmar, nooniansoong, Exo_, ObiWanShinobi, ObviousOne, NocturneMage, ritoky, Damdred
ExO_ (1): Alakaslam
ObviousOne (0): ObiWanShinobi
Not Voting (2): Coagulation, The Shining
At this time, Alakaslam is slated to be lynched.
Day 4 ends in on Thursday, Jan 07 11:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00).
The voting thread is here.
Only votes there will be counted.
Reminder that voting is mandatory
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EPT
