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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 01:33 Xatalos wrote:
If gumshoe is scum in this game, I'll happily give the win to him. I think he's been the most helpful player for town in the game overall. If such a player is scum, then town deserves to lose...
Well, I think gum is town so I'm glad for anyone to not vote him, but this kind of logic is shit. You lynch in a way that gives us the best chance to win, not because of some moral judgment about who "deserves" to win. I didn't push Onegu because his shit play meant he "deserves" to lose if he's town or if he's scum, I pushed him because he was likely to flip scum. By the same notion, I don't care whether gumshoe deserves to win or lose: we shouldn't lynch him anyways. Why? Because he is town. I think that he was instrumental in the 1G lynch yesterday (though if both wagons were scum as I suspect it doesn't matter) and all game has been laying down solid analysis. He has been unafraid to interact with players, make posts and cases, and comment on other people's posts and cases. Overall he plays like a guy with nothing to hide and I really can't see why people think he's scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 01:36 Chromatically wrote:
Guys, think about this:
IF GB is town:
The mafia are three out of {me, Vivax, Hopeless}. No question.
If you believe otherwise (that at least one mafia was bussing), then you have to find a person on the Onegu wagon that couldn't have switched to secure the GB lynch.
gumshoe wrote a justification for voting GB, he could have kept his vote there.
BH was posting a lot about being worried about the lynch, he could have easily switched at the last second and people would be like "Oh BH, you silly goose! You and your shenannies!"
ritoky switched for basically no reason and hammered scum, he 100% could have just kept his vote on GB with perfect justification.
Xatalos was saying that he might be okay with lynching GB earlier in the day and he's been scumreading GB too, he could have switched.
The mafia team is EITHER GB + someone else OR {me/Vivax/Hopeless}. To believe otherwise, you have to think that scum willingly avoided, for basically no reason, lynching a town and saving Onegu, which would have put us into 4-3 LYLO.
BTW coupled with my D2 VCA I think we can pretty safely say that a GB/H1 team fits the vidence we have here.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 01:51 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2015 01:49 Xatalos wrote:Well does hopeless, Vivax, gumshoe sound any better  oh dear god 0_0
oh lordy
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 02:11 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2015 02:08 Xatalos wrote:
Btw I still have a lingering feeling that ritoky could be scum, but all the voting etc. evidence seems to point otherwise... Meh. There are enough pretty clear / reasonable townies here that everything should work out fine. Dont worry about it, youll be dead soon enough : D don't see scum letting you through to lylo / : your way too green for your own good.
Scum has what, 3 nks assuming the longest setup? If one of GB/H1 is town, and we lynch both, we go to 2-1 LYLO Pretty sure the people killed are gonna be you, me and xat unless scum is pants-on-head retarded
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 03:18 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2015 03:15 Blazinghand wrote:On October 31 2015 02:11 gumshoe wrote:On October 31 2015 02:08 Xatalos wrote:
Btw I still have a lingering feeling that ritoky could be scum, but all the voting etc. evidence seems to point otherwise... Meh. There are enough pretty clear / reasonable townies here that everything should work out fine. Dont worry about it, youll be dead soon enough : D don't see scum letting you through to lylo / : your way too green for your own good. Scum has what, 3 nks assuming the longest setup? If one of GB/H1 is town, and we lynch both, we go to 2-1 LYLO Pretty sure the people killed are gonna be you, me and xat unless scum is pants-on-head retarded im not gonna die / : vivax and gb (one of which are scum) are dumping tons of effort into scum reading me. I doubt theyll waste it with a shot (unless they go for super duper omega wifom) more likely they'll kill chrom or ritoky ( mymonies on chrom) course they could pull another rayn / : but yeah, pretty sure I'm sticking around.
Hmmm yeah damn this jubpush on you decreases my life expectancy, doesn't it. hah. It's good news though if scum leaves us alive since we're a good bloc of townies trying to figure out the game.
I'm gonna sit down with VCA and speculate for a bit on GB/H1. Anything else you want me to look at or on your mind?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 03:28 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2015 03:25 Chromatically wrote:On October 31 2015 03:17 GlowingBear wrote:On October 31 2015 01:45 Chromatically wrote:On October 31 2015 00:28 GlowingBear wrote:On October 30 2015 22:11 Chromatically wrote:
Here's something I just thought of:
You're GB and you're town. You KNOW 100% that the wagons were mafia-town, and the vote went through 5-4. Here are the votes against you:
Onegu (confirmed mafia)
Chromatically (your townread who's been pushing you)
Vivax (your #1 scumread all game)
Hopeless (complete lurker you've been calling scum all game)
So... a Vivax-Hopeless team should be pretty obvious from a town GB perspective, right? Instead, GB is assuming that Onegu was a complete bus from both mafia (who didn't hammer GB for some reason?), when he logically should see that all the scummiest people in the game (from his perspective) were piled on his wagon (who he should know is town). Yeah. And me bussing Onegu since day1, however, is completely okay. This doesn't even have anything to do with what I said! THERE IS NO LOGIC TO GB FLIPPING HIS READS LIKE THIS OUT OF NOWHERE. GB has not been bussing Onegu. He's been throwing suspicion on Onegu and saying he's mafia, but never once has he pushed Onegu to be lynched with any kind of force. He votes yamato over Onegu D2 without pushing Onegu and then switches to rayn? If you were mafia and your team was Onegu/Hopeless, would you really not throw suspicion on them?Here's the kind of stuff he's been saying: On October 23 2015 11:59 GlowingBear wrote:
Onegu (I can never read him and I hated that he said he would sheep me - gives me deja vu from last game where he was mafia against me - him being more invested in this game is usually a bad sign)
On October 26 2015 08:15 GlowingBear wrote:
I am very suspicious of Onegu. I will always think he is a good lynch.
On October 24 2015 03:08 GlowingBear wrote:
I've said I could lynch Onegu. Yamato is the type of guy that gets afk as both alignments and if he is mafia time can easily tell. On October 26 2015 09:59 GlowingBear wrote:
I'm voting yamato atm but I prefer an onegu lynch better There is absolutely nothing in here that makes a GB-Onegu team unlikely at all. I would argue that the suspicion without pushing it at all makes it more likely. Dude this is exactly why I'm calling gumshoe mafia but he is and I'm not because I ACTUALLY VOTED ONEGU and he only voted when his vote wouldn't take me out of majority. ROFL you people... Are you actually arguing that voting Onegu when he's the other wagon to you makes you town? Absolutely. Especially when I was wanting to lynch him since day1. I could just try to kill Vivax instead. Why would I 100% bus Onegu?
Why WOULDN'T you 100% bus Onegu? And when push came to shove didn't vote him until he was the only other wagon? Even when you threw away your vote D2, you threw it away on rayn, not on Onegu. You talk a big talk about lynching Onegu but... well, you never voted him, and never tried to REALLY get things going on him, until he was literally the only other wagon.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497022-mini-mafia-the-vanilla-experience-voting-thread?user=glowingbear
where are your Onegu votes, if you've been on him? It's a nice attempt at a bus I guess
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 03:31 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2015 03:27 Chromatically wrote:
And I don't think those posts I quoted of you talking about Onegu had you "putting him on the chopping block" at all. Chrome, those posts are me saying I didn't want to mislynxh confirmed townies to try and lynch confirmed scum. Are you SERIOUSLY saying I repeatedly said "let's lynch Onegu", "I prefer lynching Onegu", risking having people saying "ok he is bad let's lynch him" over simply letting confirmed townies be mislynched???
I mean, yes? And if he did get lynched, it's not like Onegu was carrying your team with his amazing thread presence anyways
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 03:40 GlowingBear wrote:
You guys are also saying that Onegu, when he can't back, voted on the third scum member of your #dreamteam, saw he was getting lynched anyway then voted me and begged ritiky to vote me instead of just rolling over and dying. Just because, you know, he wanted to survive over his scum partner.
Sigh
Onegu was hilariously ineffective, and suspiciously kept his vote OFF of you until he was sure it wouldn't make a difference. seems straightforwards to me
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 04:37 gumshoe wrote:You mean the same Bh you've been crumbing all game? Show nested quote +BH hunting the epeen from Onegu lynch while saying GB claimed scum.
priceless. Show nested quote +BH what do you think of what rayn said about you, I think you never talked about it.
That you just flail around lynches without wanting one, basically. Show nested quote +Obviously he agrees with rayn on Xata and hopeless.
Disagrees on GB and BH.
Interestingly GB is on his lynch and so is BH, people he isn't scumreading and who were in rayn's case.
Not sure actually if rayn was still thinking of Xata being scum before he died.
He's kinda ignoring two guys who want to lynch him and who rayn scumread? Then I'd like to know his own reasoning for the reads. This ones a jewel Show nested quote +Wtf are you doing wasting your vote BH? Hopeless isnt even that awful compared to his usual standard. Show nested quote +BH convinced me a little to pick someone else than GB; but if he keeps not playing and pushing stupid arguments on me I'll have a hard time letting that slide. Show nested quote +BH where is your contribution in finding out who is mafia in all that?
I do admit that I was hasty in reading it as you suggesting a hopeless lynch.
But that means you didn't suggest anything, you told Onegu how to play the game. Show nested quote +Scum is among yamato/rayn/GB/Onegu/BH. Contributing to this game means finding out who the two townies are. Show nested quote +BH dropped off the town list, he has entered the circle of crap now and it's D2 so he can quit the act now. I'll, take a closer look at him after posting this.
this ones just ironic given our current spot Show nested quote +(then BH comes in and is BFF with GB no questions asked but whatever, that's a thing apart), Show nested quote +Yeah actually my lynch-bh-meter is rising continuously every hour that passes that he isn't posting while everyone is bashing their heads in.
wow I didn't even notice this. that's amazing, Vivax has been gearing up to push me. hilarious
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Day 1 Alakaslam (8): raynpelikoneet, marvellosity, Hopeless1der, yamato77, Chromatically, Vivax, gumshoe, Blazinghand raynpelikoneet (3): Alakaslam, GlowingBear, OneguOnegu (2): ritoky, Xatalos
Day 2 yamato77 (4): gumshoe, Xatalos, Hopeless1der, Vivax, GlowingBear (3): Chromatically, ritoky, Blazinghand raynpelikoneet (1): GlowingBear Xatalos (1): raynpelikoneetHopeless1der (1): Onegu
Day 3 Onegu (5): Xatalos, Blazinghand, GlowingBear, gumshoe, ritoky GlowingBear (4): Vivax, Chromatically, Hopeless1der, Onegu
So, again, looking at Day 2 it seems fairly clear to me that GB is scum or scum passed up an attempt to hammer him.
Taking a look at Hopeless1, also, I think a H1 GB team makes a lot of sense here. H1 kept the lynch off GB.
H1 imo is the other scum besides GB based on his really lackluster performance on Onegu. H makes a null comment on Onegu (link) during D1 then during D2 votes yam with another null comment on Onegu (link).
H1 votes GB over Onegu but doesn't really explain anything about his reads on either of them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25026630
In general this situation fits "H1 trying to look vaguely active on the Onegu and GB issue but not actually doing anything." Sadly, there's not really anything BESIDES VCA and this super tiny case that can be pinned on H1 because he's barely playing the game. Looking at what he's done, though, I feel like he'd look much worse if he was playing more, you know? So even though he's a lurker I think H1 is scum.
Going a bit more in-depth on GB and H1, I think there's actually a really interesting set of things that happens with Onegu here. Onegu basically keeps his vote off of GB the entire game, including the critical Day 2 when GB is on the block. What's interesting is Onegu is effectively doing a soft scumread on GB during this time:
On October 26 2015 23:16 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 23:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 26 2015 23:11 Onegu wrote:On October 26 2015 23:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 26 2015 23:03 Onegu wrote:
So BH says I am scum because I come into the thread before I sleep to make a post. A post about something I have been thinking about. Then he brings something up. I say ok yeah maybe you are right we can discuss it before I vote him. Then I go to sleep because it is 2am local time.
And BH know that I just peace out as both alignments. Moreso as town so that should be NAI to him. Would lynch BH.
Out of the 2 wagons right now I could lynch either of them. Would lean more to Yamato as he looked really townie day one but then did nothing n1 and d2. This matches up to his scum meta as just fucking off and doing nothing. And I know he wasnt working because I was playing Dota with him. Onegu this is a really shitty post btw... Why? because you are claiming you know 100% yamato is lying about his irl-stuff (which most likely makes him mafia) but your post suggests you want to lynch BH over him. Where does yamato say anything about his irl stuff in this game. I dont think he said he was working and I know for sure he said he was playing CSGO. And I would lynch BH and Hopeless over yamato because yamatos day 1 did look really townie. I was talking about the 2 current wagons GB and Yamato and my thoughts on that wagon.
Pay attention to what Onegu is doing here, when we're deciding between Yam and GB. We're about 8 hours out and Onegu is saying that both GB and yam are good wagons, right? Remember he was "RNGsheepping" GB previously and graduated his read to null on GB after townreading him once it became clear there were scumreads coming out of the woodwork on GB. It's hard to say how much Onegu was actually reading the thread, but here's a decent explanation for what happened:
GB has been bussing his teammates, 1G and H1, all game. But it's been a really soft bus, one with no votes, just occasional noises so if they flip he can go back and say "see! I was right all along, and therefore clearly town. it's good I was here to convince you kids". As he's trying to do now with 1G (even though, and i'll note, 1G/Gb/H1 has clearly been the best lynch-into group for like 96 hours).
Then GB starts to come under pressure. As the Yam wagon appraoches, people start considering hte GB wagon. Onegu and H1 realize that GB can't as easily be their "hidden scum" (not without help) and can't blandly scumread him, so Onegu decides to change to a nullread. But then it's important that his vote be on Yam to save GB, or, failing that, that OTHER people vote Yam (which is what he goes with). So what does he do?
On October 26 2015 23:03 Onegu wrote:
So BH says I am scum because I come into the thread before I sleep to make a post. A post about something I have been thinking about. Then he brings something up. I say ok yeah maybe you are right we can discuss it before I vote him. Then I go to sleep because it is 2am local time.
And BH know that I just peace out as both alignments. Moreso as town so that should be NAI to him. Would lynch BH.
Out of the 2 wagons right now I could lynch either of them. Would lean more to Yamato as he looked really townie day one but then did nothing n1 and d2. This matches up to his scum meta as just fucking off and doing nothing. And I know he wasnt working because I was playing Dota with him.
Well, as much as raynpelikoneet was an enormous pain, he's a sharp guy. He called out Onegu for this:
On October 26 2015 23:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 23:11 Onegu wrote:On October 26 2015 23:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:On October 26 2015 23:03 Onegu wrote:
So BH says I am scum because I come into the thread before I sleep to make a post. A post about something I have been thinking about. Then he brings something up. I say ok yeah maybe you are right we can discuss it before I vote him. Then I go to sleep because it is 2am local time.
And BH know that I just peace out as both alignments. Moreso as town so that should be NAI to him. Would lynch BH.
Out of the 2 wagons right now I could lynch either of them. Would lean more to Yamato as he looked really townie day one but then did nothing n1 and d2. This matches up to his scum meta as just fucking off and doing nothing. And I know he wasnt working because I was playing Dota with him. Onegu this is a really shitty post btw... Why? because you are claiming you know 100% yamato is lying about his irl-stuff (which most likely makes him mafia) but your post suggests you want to lynch BH over him.
So to be clear, what's going on here isn't some kind of conspiracy by Onegu but more just him flailing around and being scum, as we know. But he wants to be like "yamato is playing dota instead of playing, and isn't working". When he says "out of the two wagons", he's talking about the GB and Yam wagons. So he graduates GB to a nullread like yamato, but needs a reason to lynch Yamato. At the same time, he wants to reduce my thread presence by calling me scum. He tries to do all of this in one go, and rayn picks up that something is wrong.
But the important thing here is how crappy the reasoning in this entire post is. Like, Onegu REALLY is struggling to find some justification to lynch yam over gb. If they're both town, would Onegu really care about this? of course not. So he starts faking justifiction. One of the things about being scum is, it's hard to fake a thought process. Something that looks super duper obvious scummy to town (pretending to be afk when you're not, or outrigh tlying), well, if you're scum, you ahve to FAKE finding things scummy, so any time you try to do these thought processes, they don't make sense.
Onegu calls YAm scum, but he vastly undersells how convinced he is by this. Obviously, this is one of the many things that led to Onegu being caught. But we're leaving something else out here. Why is Onegu trying to paint Yam in a bad light? At the end of the day, Onegu ends up on H1, effectively opting out of the discourse and not like doing anything. As scum, he could have JUST done that and come out looking better. Instead, he goes to the mat, so to speak, saying he was video gaming with Yam and Yam wasn't playing Mafia when he could have been. This seems like a huge unnecessary risk to... well, to save GB. To make Yam get lynched over GB. Like, there's no reason for Onegu to do ANYTHING there if it's "GB is town, Yam is town, town is lynching between them"
Instead, Onegu appears as some of that strange resistance that crops up every time GB is on the chopping block.
Last final thoughts:
So I really really think GB/H1 for the last two scum. I've made it very clear in several filters why this is the case.
Gumshoe, and to a lesser extent Xat, have been working their butts off and are definitely town. Don't listen to Vivax' lies
Ritoky is most likely town, unless GB is scum.
Chromatically has put a modest effort into actually playing the game, and has had the right emotions at the right time. probably town for this.
Vivax's strange actions and the fact that he's been building up a scumread on me and has recently revealed a "hesistant scumreaD" of Gumshoe http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/496215-mini-mafia-the-kinda-vanilla-experience?page=164#3278
makes me think Vivax is less likely to be town.
In summary:
Lynch GB, H1, and if one of them is somehow town, Vivax, in that order or rough order.
Don't lynch Gumshoe. Really. Don't.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
"don't listen to Vivax' lies" should be "don't listen to GB's lies" but who knows!
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Huh. I was guessing gumshoe, but maybe scum think they've got a chance of lynching him. IT's not happening, though.
##vote: glowingbear
H1 is also acceptable to me today.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 07:56 ritoky wrote:Show nested quote +Day 1 Alakaslam (8): raynpelikoneet, marvellosity, Hopeless1der, yamato77, Chromatically, Vivax, gumshoe, Blazinghand raynpelikoneet (3): Alakaslam, GlowingBear, OneguOnegu (2): ritoky, Xatalos Show nested quote +Day 2 yamato77 (4): gumshoe, Xatalos, Hopeless1der, Vivax, GlowingBear (3): Chromatically, ritoky, Blazinghand raynpelikoneet (1): GlowingBear Xatalos (1): raynpelikoneetHopeless1der (1): Onegu Show nested quote +Day 3 Onegu (5): Xatalos, Blazinghand, GlowingBear, gumshoe, ritokyGlowingBear (4): Vivax, Chromatically, Hopeless1der, Onegu putting this here for me to do stuff with later. first impressions: i am sexy, vivax and hopeless have voted together every vote, chroma/vivax/hopeless have never voted on conf mafia, no hipster mafia day 1
I see you've also taken the liberty of coloring yourself in green there 
On October 31 2015 08:13 Chromatically wrote:
modest effort BH? I'm offended
also I'm totally okay with either GB or Hopeless, slight preference for GB but I don't think there's any real reason for that other than "information" and he's more likely to wiggle out of it later
historically: he is a wiggler. But if we lynch H1 today I'm sure we're lynching GB tomorrow. It's slightly frustrating to almost-lynch him so many times without getting it done... but he's on almost everyone's lynch
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 10:19 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2015 08:32 GlowingBear wrote:
I don't thibk hopeless is mafia... gb stahp, just stahp please T_T hopeless would have just voted for onegu yesterday if he was town, why did he vote for you if not to save his buddy?
PRO TIP:
gb/h1/1gu scumteam
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 10:23 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2015 10:19 gumshoe wrote:On October 31 2015 08:32 GlowingBear wrote:
I don't thibk hopeless is mafia... gb stahp, just stahp please T_T hopeless would have just voted for onegu yesterday if he was town, why did he vote for you if not to save his buddy? PRO TIP: gb/h1/1gu scumteam
oh, actually, that doesn't explain it now that I think about it. H1 could reasonably vote either of them if he and gb are scum together. there might even be a reason to vote onegu since onegu was probably getting lynched no matter what, so get some cred.... hmmm
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 31 2015 11:08 Chromatically wrote:
I think the lynch was looking like a GB lynch at that point right? ritoky said he was on GB and gumshoe was on GB at that point too so the votes looked like they were going to be 6-3 in favor of GB. Makes sense if it's a GB Hopeless team for Hopeless to pop in and vote on the mafia that seems like he's going to flip.
ah... so he'd get some cred, and cause he's generally lurking confuse reads on him? An interesting thought. not that this changes my general idea of how we should play the next two days
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On November 01 2015 02:44 Hopeless1der wrote:
Be honest, is there really a possibility that at I could convince everyone that I was town?
not... really?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
You don't have to give up though, yeah you're gonna die but the game's not over. In a hypothetical world where you're town, you should leave behind some reads or something. It's not like you're gonna listen to me but I feel obligated to say that.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On November 01 2015 17:26 Chromatically wrote:
Do you prefer GB to Hopeless today, Vivax? Or don't care?
His vote is currently on H1, but from the sounds of it he's about to move it.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
GB (3): BH, H1, Vivax
H1 (1):Chrom
Not Voting (3): Gumshoe, ritoky, GB
Gumshoe and GB are gonna vote H1 by the looks of things (though Gumshoe has a good chance of being convinced by Chrom's case IMO
Based on ritoky's post analyzing GB he wants to maybe lay off GB today and vote H1 first. he doesn't post hard conclusions but htese are the two most recent of his posts on our wagons:
On October 31 2015 07:46 ritoky wrote:
not really sure what to make of that. wifom tells me suggests a GB/x team otherwise i am confirmed town and should be instantly shot because all other cases i am conf. brain tells me that whoever is making kills needs lessons from me on how to win as mafia....
i kinda wanna lynch GB first just cuz i am greedy and if he is town then i am full confirmed 4 lyfe instead of 99.999999999999999% confirmed like i already am. and if he is mafia then i lynch mafia and have a perfect voting record which means despite my actual play i am actually the best ever. win-win for me. but i seem to remember someone having some reason why hopeless was better first? what was it?
On October 31 2015 07:56 ritoky wrote:Show nested quote +Day 1 Alakaslam (8): raynpelikoneet, marvellosity, Hopeless1der, yamato77, Chromatically, Vivax, gumshoe, Blazinghand raynpelikoneet (3): Alakaslam, GlowingBear, OneguOnegu (2): ritoky, Xatalos Show nested quote +Day 2 yamato77 (4): gumshoe, Xatalos, Hopeless1der, Vivax, GlowingBear (3): Chromatically, ritoky, Blazinghand raynpelikoneet (1): GlowingBear Xatalos (1): raynpelikoneetHopeless1der (1): Onegu Show nested quote +Day 3 Onegu (5): Xatalos, Blazinghand, GlowingBear, gumshoe, ritokyGlowingBear (4): Vivax, Chromatically, Hopeless1der, Onegu putting this here for me to do stuff with later. first impressions: i am sexy, vivax and hopeless have voted together every vote, chroma/vivax/hopeless have never voted on conf mafia, no hipster mafia day 1
I'd be interested to hear what ritoky has to say now, before end of day. ritoky: please fill us in.
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EPT
