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Message Blazinghand if you request a ban please ^_^
Also when the game you're sitting out is over! |
The way i analyse bavaria drama:
I call Koshi good town>Palmar ridicules this statement>Koshi gets upset and wants to leave because how he gets sort of unfair treatment frequently.
Palmars reaction had nothing to do with game, so did Koshi's they are warning wothy to me.
How that differs from me, SL and haze calling eachother bad/idiot variants for like 2 hours straight is that stays within the confines of town argument and is part of the game.
Second drama blows down to these:
On July 08 2016 23:55 Koshi wrote:
VE/RB/Kush
Kush is almost lock mafia for me. TMI and really bad lists. I remember him making lists as mafia. Long time ago though. But there is no fire in him at all.
VE is discussed. I literally can only say bad things about him that would hurt his feelings if he is town and actually trying to solve this game so w.e.
RB. Started with superstrong reads but that was probably TMI mixed with overcompensating trying to pretend he was helping town. Fell down flat to the floor with horrific replies to Shape and others. Came back strong right before EoD. Fell down flat to the floor after EoD. Didn't get up yet.
1 mafia is hiding. I don't know who.
On July 09 2016 02:37 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 02:26 Skynx wrote:
Yeah I see, i said earlier I'm happy to leave SL to lylo. Just pointing out that his actions fits the actual context of the mentioned scumteam.
My lynches today are RB/haze. Would only lynch kush if town is not willing on those two. Why do you think VE is a better lynch than those 3?
Also Damdy, Palmar and DCW post some thoughts ty xoxo much love. For me it is RB/Kush that are most likely mafia atm. VE third due to PoE. Like I said. Reading VE is impossible due to him always being horrible. But this time. He was reallllyyyy horrible on his analysis. prplhz made imo 3 townie posts so far. AND if sl isn't mafia prplhz played really odd around EoD, basically trying to save sicklucker. But that doesn't net him too much cred because he was solo voting on VE so that was super anti town anyway.
Only thing that is extensive here is the bolded statement. Rest is Koshi stating VE being town is impossible because he's being scummy with his posts.
Now I dunno about past Koshi dramas but the right path is just to never mention them again and just take a fresh start.
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On July 09 2016 13:45 nnn_thekushmountains wrote:
bh doesn't get payed enough for this shit
Kush knows what's up
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On July 09 2016 10:49 Seeker wrote:
We received a mod report in this thread. Please PM me what is going on so I can make a decision.
Wtf guys?!
Stop reporting stuff on TL mafia unless it is blatantly racist/comparable to that and not a joke. You are hurting everyone here with this bullshit.
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my self imposed hiatus from the date of my ban ending is pretty much over
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i dont see the Koshi bolded thing @ the top of this page as excessive. When you are a veteran of this forum, you invite that kind of criticism. People have different perspectives, and this is a place to express that, however negative. Meta DOES have a place in mafia.
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On July 10 2016 05:14 Bill Murray wrote:
my self imposed hiatus from the date of my ban ending is pretty much over
![[image loading]](http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/91/915ed27777024ba40053adb028c7b2ad7b4f5ae8fcb11b1d3b8b0b49a854358c.jpg)
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BM truly is a good dude. He just breaks game after game after game and I wish he didn't. It's one of the most perplexing problems I've ever seen, because he's genuinely not an asshole, he really is a good guy. He just keeps getting mad and fucking people over in the process.
No idea what his banlist status is but if he's clear I'm glad he's back.
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honestly I dont think this game was very bm, besides from ve...
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palmar what was your issue day 1? mod related? game was hardly bm up to that point
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On July 10 2016 11:58 sicklucker wrote:
palmar what was your issue day 1? mod related? game was hardly bm up to that point
It was an overreaction by me, I'm sorry.
I also have a problem and I'm not sure how, or if, to express it correctly.
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you're perfect just the way you are, Palmar <3
+ Show Spoiler +watching the euro final and wondering how much more interesting it would be if Iceland and Wales had made it through
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On July 09 2016 07:25 LightningStrike wrote:
Okay HTS isn't here but I think I can speak for her as I am the Cohost for the game:
1-2 games ban for VE for posting his role pm with the Scum QT in it, Idk what is the standard for that offense.
Idk if HTS wants to request a banlist action against Koshi atm but I will contact her about it ASAP.
My 2 cents, 1-2 games isn't enough regardless if VE is coming back or not. 1-2 games is fine if he just stopped posting and got mod-killed.
Also doesn't matter if he meant to post the link to the QT or not. He did. He ruined a game. He made a game 100% stop because of his actions. People get pissed, I get pissed. People get themselves modkilled. This isn't that.
5 game to a semi perm is what I think he should get. Posting your PM to ruin a game is so bad, it's so much worse than what Koshi has been doing to hosts.
And I understand VE, I understand him getting pissed and quiting. But you can't ruin a game because of it.
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On July 11 2016 10:23 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 07:25 LightningStrike wrote:
Okay HTS isn't here but I think I can speak for her as I am the Cohost for the game:
1-2 games ban for VE for posting his role pm with the Scum QT in it, Idk what is the standard for that offense.
Idk if HTS wants to request a banlist action against Koshi atm but I will contact her about it ASAP. My 2 cents, 1-2 games isn't enough regardless if VE is coming back or not. 1-2 games is fine if he just stopped posting and got mod-killed. Also doesn't matter if he meant to post the link to the QT or not. He did. He ruined a game. He made a game 100% stop because of his actions. People get pissed, I get pissed. People get themselves modkilled. This isn't that. 5 game to a semi perm is what I think he should get. Posting your PM to ruin a game is so bad, it's so much worse than what Koshi has been doing to hosts. And I understand VE, I understand him getting pissed and quiting. But you can't ruin a game because of it.
This is entirely correct.
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I am in the process of writing up a massive ban list post. Re: VE, I want the penalty on the heavier side because he's ruined a game. I have not dealt with outright game breakers before, given that Bill Murray got 3+ for SOTW, I will write in 3+ and I will let the cards fall where they may. However others have been dealt with, let the same happen here.
To me intentional vs unintentional is irrelevant, because he ruined the game not least for the remaining scummers who wanted an honest go. You can also argue that by flipping himself, he'd also via association read made it that much harder for his teammates, but this happened and such it is.
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(Note: This is in progress. I was held unavailable all weekend but have managed to be in touch with Blazinghand.)
[M][N] Bavarian Nightkills ban list actions as follows, on continuation from my cohost:
On July 09 2016 07:25 LightningStrike wrote:
Okay HTS isn't here but I think I can speak for her as I am the Cohost for the game:
1-2 games ban for VE for posting his role pm with the Scum QT in it, Idk what is the standard for that offense.
Idk if HTS wants to request a banlist action against Koshi atm but I will contact her about it ASAP.
(1) VisceraEyes - I was AFK at the time this went down, but this post (will have) resulted in a modkill for posting his Role PM with the Mafia QT. I think this is self-explanatory.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/510753-bavarian-nightkills?page=48#953
He broke a game, intentionally or not is irrelevant. It ruined the game for others, it ruined the game for his teammates who were having at it, and even his own flip intentionally not least would have made it harder for them.
Using precedence for Bill Murray in SOTW 2, as he got 3+ games (edit: to semiperm) from what he did there, I will ask for 3 games to semiperm, and let the chips fall where they may.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24908435
(2) Palmar and prplhz - names were brought up in the post-game, these were unofficial/pre-warnings, so absolutely positively no action for them.
+ Show Spoiler [editorial re: pre-warnings] +I also understand several players from post-game comments were unfamilar with pre-warnings or disagree with them. If that's the case, I think we should start a separate discussion on them - I have seen several mods - namely geript, BH, Artanis, etc - make use of pre-warnings where you get close to the line, but don't quite cross it. Given the number of people who have used pre-warnings - hell, even I've been prewarned myself, so that should tell you something - I don't think I'll be the last person to make use of such an action so, just saying. Also in reference to comments about interference, I also worded all PMs where the action focused on the player himself and not whom they were discussing, so that effect should have been minimal to nonexistent.
(3) Koshi - Part 1
I'm going to break this down into two parts. Let's start with the warning. Koshi received a warning for the following:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/510753-bavarian-nightkills?page=11#220
Koshi clearly overreacts to Palmar's laughing "he's a good town" comment made by Skynx. The problem is, if you look at context, Palmar wasn't flaming Koshi's skill - using that as a comparison to the "braindead monkey" comments Koshi himself brought up as an example - looking deeper into the indexed comments you will see that Palmar legitimately thought Koshi was mafia based on tone (flipside: Palmar as potential mafia can choose to push Koshi on tone as a poor read, getting under people's skin as mafia has been done before without going too far) and he was laughing at anyone calling Koshi town, full stop. Not at Koshi directly.
Either way, regardless of alignment, Palmar did not insult Koshi's skill, and regardless of interpretation, Koshi completely overreacted to the comment. If you read his filter, it should be obvious why. These two comments were pushes on Koshi that directly preceded the "I'm not buying his fake tone" - hardly an insult at all, just connecting his tone to him being mafia.
On July 05 2016 07:18 Palmar wrote:
Koshi is mafia 100%
On July 05 2016 19:35 Palmar wrote:
Koshi is 100% mafia I'm never unvoting.
Now if Koshi can't handle Palmar calling him mafia for tone, that's entirely on him.
However, if he had honestly thought Palmar was flaming, the correct thing to do would have been to PM the mods. Instead, he does what he did and proceeded to PM me asking to replace out. In thread, Koshi also additionally mentioned replacements and replacing out as a statement, which had it gone though (and I'd never have allowed it for that reason, ever) it'd have been a bannable offence.
The reaction - along with asking to modkill Palmar in subsequent posts completely justified the warning.
On July 06 2016 01:19 Koshi wrote:
Well I asked to be replaced or that Palmar gets replaced.
On July 06 2016 03:38 Koshi wrote:
hmm. Replacing is indeed pretty stupid. Modkill it is.
On July 06 2016 03:44 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2016 03:44 Skynx wrote:On July 06 2016 03:38 Koshi wrote:
hmm. Replacing is indeed pretty stupid. Modkill it is. Man don't do dis fuck the haterz just play oh. I meant modkill Palmar. lol
It takes him 3 posts in the span of 2 hours for him to cool down over this, only after he's called out by other players, does he do so.
Now to the second part of Koshi - that is regarding overall BM. Not just in one post, but overall. This is my opinion.
There were several posts where Koshi called people's arguments trash or criticised play (i.e. Sicklucker's tracker claim). I re-read Koshi's filter individually and in context to the thread, this to me is valid, I would never warn for this. You are insulting the argument, not the person. For comparison's sake, I recall geript in a BH-run newbie way back when using the F word umpteen times to describe how terrible an argument was, but not once did he insult the player. Because of the excessive swearing though, BH informed me to pre-warn him for the swearing with an acknowledgement that he was not insulting the player, but yes, the swearing was excessive.
Post 919 - Koshi puts down VE's meta. Read it over and over again. Is it blistering? Yes. Is it warnable? He connects VE's mafia-siding - true or not - to an ineffective or "horrible" meta. He does call him horrible, but it's not outright flaming, it addresses gameplay.
828 is slightly worse though - it's a direct insult - "trashtownies who don't have a clue"
The post that has the most direct insult I am seeing here:
On July 08 2016 23:55 Koshi wrote:
VE/RB/Kush
Kush is almost lock mafia for me. TMI and really bad lists. I remember him making lists as mafia. Long time ago though. But there is no fire in him at all.
VE is discussed. I literally can only say bad things about him that would hurt his feelings if he is town and actually trying to solve this game so w.e.
RB. Started with superstrong reads but that was probably TMI mixed with overcompensating trying to pretend he was helping town. Fell down flat to the floor with horrific replies to Shape and others. Came back strong right before EoD. Fell down flat to the floor after EoD. Didn't get up yet.
1 mafia is hiding. I don't know who.
The problem I have with this? Like you pushed his lynch, you made your case as to why you should lynch him based on a meta you cannot discern or read (post 919) plus arguments you made on his gameplay. Why was this (bolded) even necessary? This is probably the one post (926) that crosses the line for personal insult territory.
(I was AFK at the time you'd made this post so no I didn't and couldn't rule on it then.)
The post where he says VE is horrible, his analysis is horrible, again, borderline but he's still connecting it to gameplay. Ever other blistering post, even the ones where he pushed sicklucker - again connected to play, and either called play, posts, analysis, etc, all poor, and not necessarily the players.
I read all of Koshi's posts and excepting I can say he was blistering, he was condescending towards townies after the lynch d1, but that is stuff you don't warn for. Post 926, I'd definitely say he crossed that line, especially when you read for context. 919 is borderline, he calls him horrible, and then a sentence later on analysis.
Edit #2: Koshi should receive a general post-game warning, in accordance with the same ruling I made on LS in Himalayas for similar behaviour.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/427933-tl-mafia-ban-list-20?page=129#2563
That said, VE still overreacted by a country mile, no question.
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I'm off, but I'll be back.
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The "laughing post" by palmar was very obviously meant to ridicule koshis skill. I have no idea how you can read it any other way.
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Honestly it was a light jab by Palmar that I took in good fun, I don't think koshi attitude towards Ve is bannable I do think it's a history of bm between the two that is at play here.
As for the replacement in thread and talking of modkill I think it does affect the game because it's something that we look for town koshi to do. Maybe you can call it a manipulation but I personally don't think you should talk about it in game in that way.
I'd be fine with a warning
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I kinda feel bad for bh though cause when he hits koshi with a warning will be ww3-19 in here.
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I'm gone for the next two hours but I'll say this much in response.
On July 12 2016 00:52 justanothertownie wrote:
The "laughing post" by palmar was very obviously meant to ridicule koshis skill. I have no idea how you can read it any other way.
Not if you read for context. In any case, let's say Palmar was actually ridiculing Koshi's skill. If Palmar was mafia and wanted to get underneath a town Koshi's skin, disruption is a legit way of doing that short of outright flaming or personal attacks with zero relation to the game. Laughing at Skynx about Koshi's skill is still on a different level from outright flaming and shitfighting the target especially after explaining to the thread "I'm not buying the fake tone". That comment came after him voting Koshi and saying he's mafia twice over.
Even in this game, Koshi did the same thing with VE in later posts and criticised his meta but used those same points to highlight why he was the best lynch. Zero issue because he connected the opinion of gameplay to why VE was scum.
Regardless of how you interpret Palmar's posts, what Koshi did in response was a problem no matter what. You don't talk about replacements in thread, and further asking in thread for a Palmar modkill was certainly not the way to go.
The rest of Koshi's posts save the 919/926 posts I cited earlier would be fine, every statement, whilst harsh, he tied to meta play or to a point as to why VE was mafia. (The same applied for sicklucker after the tracker claim as well.) 919 is borderline and only because he follows with the next sentence up on meta play. 926 is the one that crosses the line.
Regardless, the questionable posts by Koshi are not quite there for a ban. On precedent alone, most people that have been banned for behaviour modkills have been worse.
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EPT
