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Okay, I'm now 100% convinced that SW is the final mafia.
Looking at the evolution of his reads, it's totally bogus. He solo votes on NHM N1. He then town reads TJH for putting Sulfurs second on his scum list, but as discussed, that's actually a massively scummy thing to do. The crucial part, next, is that he does this massive big long post on Ghandi, presumably in order to make sure that town stays on the GE wagon. He doesn't say ANYTHING else about TJH at all. But then, with literally no explanation, he moves TJH down into his 'scum' category, despite TJH having said basically nothing between SW's first read of him as town and then.
I couldn't have solved this game without the following people:
HTS - so glad I was town with you. I think if you had rolled scum, it would have been GG.
n00b - I won't eff with you I promise
Grokken - Bro, you did a nice job as cop, checking exactly the right people and trying to help town without making yourself a target for NK. Props. I'm very impressed. You've got a bright future here.
TT - Buddy, what can I say. I'm sorry about the things I said yesterday. You were the first one on the SW wagon, and without you this wouldn't have been possible.
TL;DR If I can see this far, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants.
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Finally, what's the over/under on the number of posts in the mafia QT. I'm going to say 15.
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… Lol.
Lol.
If anyone actually needs me to explain why that thread re-entry is 100% mafia, then I will. But I think you're all smart enough to figure it out for yourselves.
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Your answer wasn't sufficient. You said that you had answered it. I assume you're talking about the post where you kick around the argument that TJH was actually seriously scummy for what he posted re Sulfurus, but you hardly reached a conclusion. It reads to me, with the knowledge we have now, that you were caught trying to back your mafia buddy and didn't want to bus him but also wanted to distance yourself from him.
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On July 18 2015 19:45 silentwarrior wrote:
Oh, wow. A lot happened while I was gone. First, really disappointed that you guys actually believed TJH. You didn't find it convenient that the guy who is set to be lynched with the most votes by far is dt and has red check on next likely lynch? And he dosen't claim until it is evident that he will be lynched? Still can't believe you guys did that.
Btw, thx grokken for claiming to save me.
Okay, I just can't restrain myself from making this post, because it's such a gimme:
1. This post is a total distortion of what happened. Nobody straight up believed TJH's claim. Lots of people (TT, for example) said that the claim was bullshit straight off. HOWEVER, if you don't have the necessary counter-claims, the correct play from town is to lynch the red check 100%. If the red check is off, you then lynch the false-cop. But you always lynch the target first, because then you don't run the risk of accidentally lynching your cop.
2. Nowhere in this post does SW express any actual claim to town. He berates town for believing TJH's claim, and he says thanks to Grokken, but he doesn't actually try and move the agenda forward or even hint that he might be town.
3. He's riled. Mafia get riled when they are close to being caught. They just can't help it. I've seen it time and time again, in real life mafia and in forum mafia.
4. Specifically, this is the first time that we've seen SW post this directly. Everything else has been pretty bland, but this has real fire to it.
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PS you can all call me James "Foolishness" Jones from now on. Boom.
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Lastly, I'm going on holiday in about an hour or so. I should have phone reception down there, but if I have any long periods of inactivity, it's because I'm on a boat or in a bar or something :-)
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I mean, it probably doesn't need to be said again, but I might as well:
I don't think anyone came out and said they straight up believed TJH's claim. Lots of people displayed skepticism. N00b said that he wouldn't have moved his vote anyway. HOWEVER, as I explained above, good town players should absolutely move their votes onto the cop claimer's red check, as you get the same amount of information as you would if you lynched the cop, but without running the risk of actually lynching the cop. The situation obviously then changes if you get a counter-claim. Here we have a very believable counter-claim coming from Grokken, who plenty of people have been reading as town.
Also, everyone is going to move to TJH if they haven't already - we know that HTS is offline and she'll switch 100% when she gets back. So there was no need for you to be angry at all. The fact that you are/were is a massive scum tell, in my opinion.
Please don't take this personally - I know that Mafia is a game of lying. Next time maybe you'll roll town, and you can put everything you've learned from being Mafia this game towards being a good town next game.
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One thing about being town that I have learned is that it's not enough to have amazing judgement, you also need to get everyone else to vote for your scum reads. Sometimes it's enough to make a strong case, but in my view it's more persuasive when you demonstrate utter conviction. Mafia don't want to do that, because it leaves them in a pickle if they need to go a different way later on.
I'm convinced that I've now nailed the scum team (well, HTS was first on TJH and TT was first on you). So I need everyone to follow me. And hopefully my posting the way I have will show people just how sure I am.
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Also for the post game cred.
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On July 18 2015 22:11 Grokken wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 20:07 Fidei86 wrote:
PS you can all call me James "Foolishness" Jones from now on. Boom. I have no idea if you're serious, but if you are, these are probably the most stacked teams ever.
<3
The fact that you would even entertain the fact that I might be Foolishness is a massive compliment.
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I haven't rolled Mafia yet. I'm kind of concerned that if/when I do it will be blindingly obvious to HTS and others.
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On July 18 2015 22:51 Grokken wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 22:39 Fidei86 wrote:On July 18 2015 22:11 Grokken wrote:On July 18 2015 20:07 Fidei86 wrote:
PS you can all call me James "Foolishness" Jones from now on. Boom. I have no idea if you're serious, but if you are, these are probably the most stacked teams ever. <3 The fact that you would even entertain the fact that I might be Foolishness is a massive compliment. You're welcome, I guess. I've never played with Foolishness though, I just heard he was good at mafia. Also english is not my first language and i misinterpreted what you said. I was kind of confused at first and thought you were a smurf account or something. But then I realized you were just using his name cause he is good at mafia. Kinda like calling yourself James "Dendi" Jones to say you're good at dota 
I play 4 position support. They call me James "Aui" Jones in Dota circles.
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I dunno. Mafia may have held it? That doesn't make sense though - they might as well put it on HTS again if they were scared of confirming someone town? But if they were going to hold it, it would also make sense for the Mafia to claim they were roleblocked. I looked at the rules again and I'm pretty sure that the target does get notified.
It's a mystery.
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EOD is at midnight for me while I'm en France. Shenanigans seem unlikely this evening, but I'll do my best to stay up anyway.
As Scott would say, don't worry boys, this wagon is hitting Mafia for sure!
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@TT It's late and I've been drinking, so I'll respond substantively tomorrow. For now, I'll just say that it's a great compliment that you think I'd be able to play scum this well after three games ever :-)
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Okay so I'm probably sober enough to deal with this. Plus I've nothing else to do until the flip as my family have all gone to bed.
I went back through the D1 filter and I've pulled together the following links with annotations that document the history of the Sulfurus lynch:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=11#211 - me on page 11 saying that Moosy was a fine lynch but that is rather lynch a lurker
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=13#255 -n00b on Sulfurus on page 13
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=13#257 - my response on page 13 ("I'm down with that")
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=14#279 - my post on page 14 just after Sulfurus' incriminating post but before HTS started the wagon saying I was going to vote for Moosy but preferred to lynch a lurker
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=15#283 - HTS' case on Sulfurus
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=15#290 - me 36 minutes later agreeing with HTS (and I put my vote on then)
I was happy to lynch Moosy because his play was ridiculous, but I'd clearly expressed a preference for lynching lurkers before n00b's case on Sulfurus, which was the first one I could find in the thread when I looked back just now. I didn't immediately move onto Sulfurus because not even n00b had, and he didn't really rally people to vote, I read his post more as "this is weird I want to draw attention to this". As soon as HTS made a case to lynch, and voted, I was more than down to follow. Yea, there was totally an element of sheep to what I did. I can't really argue with that. But I think that the sheep was consistent with the sentiment I had expressed before this started ("lynch all lurkers").
As to my D2 inactivity, the honest truth is that it was a combination of factors. Firstly, I was at work a lot (I'm a lawyer in London, and when I get home sometimes I just play dota and go to bed, rather than digesting the thread. Second, I was pretty sure Ghandi was Mafia (I think I got that wagon going, which I feel awful about) and so I was sort of phoning it in. Third, I was moderating a game of Mafia that my friends were playing over Whatsapp, which sucked up most of my non-work and non-Dota time.
Re my read on TJH, I recall that HTS made a post after eod 1 about TJH. At that stage I hadn't really paid much attention to TjH (I even town read him for his attack on Grokken). However, I remember thinking that his response to my questions about whether or not he was NHM's boyfriend were really weird, so I said I agreed with her and wanted to hear more. After that, though, I got tunnelled on Ghandi. By the time eod2 came around HTS and n00b, as well as lots of others, had made very compelling arguments on TJH. I probably should have typed up my seven point list, but I was still in the office and it was like 11pm and most of the arguments had already been made, so I just stuck the best and newest one I had in.
Re SW, I totally admit my read on him has been all over the place. From memory, I first pinged him for his horrible thread entry, then u town read him for his contributions, then you scum read him and I thought that what you'd said made sense, then I thought that maybe WP and SW were a team because they'd played so similarly, then I saw SW's response to the claim-counter claim bit and was convinced he was the final Mafia. I still am.
Those are my thoughts. Basically, for me to be scum, I would have had to realise that Sulfurus was going to get called out early AND that he was going to lurk and then breadcrumb moving off Moosy early, then jump second onto the wagon at a time when there were only two other people leaning on Sulf (KSC moved on to the auld wagon with the same little explanation that I did - is "I'm down"). But one thing that strikes me is that why would scum TJH, who, at that stage, was totally active, not bus as well? TJH stayed on Moosy and is about to pay the price. I hope that, if I were scum, I'd at least give my other scum buddy the same amazing insight I had and give him the chance to come with me. If you don't, you have to think that on Day 1 I basically decided that I was going to have to win the game all by myself. I'm just not that kind of person, honestly.
Hopefully this wasn't too rambling.
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I hope that TT and I don't become the new Holyflare and Rsoultin. And if we're going there, can I trade so I get Tina and TT gets Holyflare? :-)
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On July 19 2015 03:15 Tictock wrote:Oh I forgot I was gonna make a point in my case on Fidei about this... Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 22:07 Fidei86 wrote:Also, I think this is probably worth saying - if there is a medic, they should 100% try and save HTS this evening. She is probably the most town-read person (maybe along side me), but given that she just nailed Sulfurus in one post, I definitely think she's towns biggest asset right now. She's definitely smarter than me, anyway  It's not much, and again kinda WIFOM. This was Fidei's only suggested night action N1, if he wanted to make a suggestion why single out a Medic save? Think about that from a town and scum mindset...
I mean, you're right. That's all I suggested. And I did it because I really really wanted HTS to stay in the game. I might be biased because I really like HTS and playing with her as town has been a pleasure, but I thought she had the best chance of solving the game.
I also did say that I didn't think people should be suggesting cop checks N1. I'm not certain that my arguments were right, and I'd like to hear your thoughts (mostly so if I roll cop in the future, I'll have a better sense of what I should be doing).
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EON2 hype people. Anyone else here to witness the flip?
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EPT
