EPTNewbie Mini Mafia LXI - Page 89
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Silverarte
115 Posts
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Eden1892
United States5866 Posts
On February 26 2015 09:42 rsoultin wrote: vote analysis for mafia  )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) | ||
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LoneMeow
Finland1396 Posts
On February 26 2015 09:49 Trfel wrote: I kept looking at The Shining's case on jarjarbinks, I read it at least three times. But I just didn't see most of the points. A case tells a lot more about the player who makes it than whoever it is made on. On February 26 2015 09:58 rsoultin wrote: the later stuff with all the embedded links @.@ not gonna open 30 links in a post. it reads more fluidly but it's a bitch to verify Just to emphasize this, embedded links are terrible. Quote if you want to refer to something someone said so I don't have to open 30 tabs and swap between them while reading the case. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
On February 26 2015 09:15 marvellosity wrote: mafia tough game trfel, you're gonna be wrong a lot, even when you're really good (and tbh you're pretty good already) This is true. Being right is the hardest skill to learn in mafia. It is also one of the least valuable skills on it's own. I hate it when people put so much stock into being wrong or right. It doesn't even matter. There are a ton of other skills in mafia that are both much easier to learn, and much more valuable for someone learning the game. I was right on JJB, it didn't do me much good. Being right is completely useless in mafia and is no saving grace for people when they make mistakes. You see, this discussion here: While tounge-in-cheek, it's completely backwards. Trfel is the one who should be accepting zlefin's apology, not the other way around. Sure, Trfel was wrong. Who cares! If zlefin and I had managed to put ourselves in a position similar to Trfel's, where we couldn't be lynched easily, then the game would have been auto-win for town. Because the only player that could be reasonably lynched was the mafia. On February 26 2015 09:02 zlefin wrote: I was right! that's the most important part to me, so I call that a win. This kind of thinking is how you never improve at mafia. I don't mind that, there are players who play for goals other than to actually improve at the game, but it's true. And it's not exactly an achievement to be right when there are only two options, one of which both the confirmed recently flipped townires townread, and the other one they both scumread. zlefin and Trfel were both wrong on my lynch, and Trfel was wrong on the final day. I think both of these, really, really don't matter. I think this because it's not easily fixable. There is no way you can go to someone and tell him. "Here, if you do x and y, you will be more right". zlefin did, however, make an atrocious mistake when he refused to play the game the day I got lynched. He refused to engage in playing the game and consider the possibility he may be wrong, thus not only being partly responsible for lynching me that day (remember, if he had been wrong at that point, we'd have won, because shining and I were trying to kill JJB). The good news is that, this is a mistake that is very, very easily fixable. All zlefin has to do is next time when presented with an obvious lynch, is to say "well, we got this obvious lynch, so how about I use the time to review and interact, just in case I'm wrong". Notice how unlike the "be more right", this is something that can be easily fixed. I want to make sure you guys understand I'm not flaming at all. I did exactly the same thing in one of my early games of mafia. I sheeped a bunch of dead townies and lynched the "town consensus" instead of looking at the situation critically and threw a game when it would have been easy to figure out that something was up if I had spent the time working on it. As for Trfel, I couldn't find you ever looking at it this way, but you had to have thought somewhere "why me? Why was shining shot and I was left alive? I'm universally townread, so what's the problem here?". It's important to review things in lylo, and for the most part mafia do the logical things. They shoot townies who are right. Obviously, unlike the point I made with zlefin, this is a much harder thing to fix. You went with your gut over the analysis by shining and I from the day before, and that's okay. I know that you will learn from this, and your methodology wasn't wrong, it was simply incomplete and thus your conclusion was wrong, which is always going to be a problem as long as you play mafia. If it wasn't, the game wouldn't be any fun, would it? I also want to commend you on the job you did making yourself unlynchable. That was very good, and is both a very good skill to master and much easier to apply consistently than being right. Don't beat yourself up over this game, everyone is wrong once in a while. Shining did an excellent job on reevaluating a situation. Not only did he take a situation that at face value looked like an automatic lynch, spend the time to reevaluate and tried to actively work to solve the game, he actually reached the correct conclusion too, which is of course just fantastic. He played the day very, very well, the only knock on him is that he was right, but did not manage to convince either Trfel or zlefin to follow him. But the fact that he didn't manage to was of course only partly on him, and partly on the others, and partly on me for not being townier than I was. Everyone can always improve. Shining also became such a threat to the mafia that JJB decided to shoot him in the night, it's always a good thing to be shot as a townie. It means the mafia for some reason does not want to deal with you. Anyway, it was fun, again, I'm sorry for not being able to move the wagon off me, all I had to do was convince either zlefin or Trfel and we'd have won the game. I feel like I didn't have the time to find my angle to convincing them, and maybe I spent too much time scumhunting instead of just defending myself. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
Because usually at the end, the dye is cast, and you have an idea what's going to happen. In my first newbie, it was 3-1 during the night - me, strongandbig, HiroPro, one other townie. Me/other townie wanted to lynch HiroPro. strongandbig and HiroPro wanted to lynch me. Other townie died during the night. I made the argument to strongandbig that I would never shoot othertownie during the night, because it leaves me in the situation where 2 players want to kill me. I admitted that I could have killed that dude just to make that argument, but even with that argument it would *still* have been easier for me to just shoot strongandbig and go for the "mislynch" on HiroPro final day. And right at the death, strongandbig accepted my argument (correctly). It's the same here. Jarjar *could* shoot Trfel and hope to wifom or whatever Shining on the final day. But there's a very low guarantee of success here, and actually it's more likely that zlefin votes obvmafia from his PoV (jarjar) and Shining continues to believe in his case and kills jarjar. You can also flip it around. Trfel is kinda unsure who he wants to lynch, Shining is pretty set on jarjar. So let's say zlefin is actually mafia. Who does he kill? Trfel who is constantly going back and reanalysing? Or Shining who is pretty set on mislynching jarjar? Again here, it's more likely zlefin would kill Trfel to have Shining around to secure the mislynch on jarjar. So if jarjar is mafia, he kills the guy who wants to kill him - Shining If zlefin is mafia, he kills the unsure guy and leaves the guy gunning for the mislynch - he kills Trfel. So the final NK strongly implicates jarjar. In-game, it's very hard to accept it's damning evidence on its own, because wifom, because players make mistakes, but it should push you in that direction. Then on top of that, what I mentioned about jarjar's tone/posts being toned down from his usual towngame. "I don't use meta" (Trfel) - ok, but you could, and it might have helped you. Like NK analysis, it's just one more tool in your bag. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
Overall very very fun game, I learned a lot and was impressed with a lot of people's play. I am also 100% cosigning everything Palmar said lol. GG 10/10 would newbtown again | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On March 02 2015 09:46 zlefin wrote: I should add that I consider palmar extremely and unacceptably rude, and unless he apologizes I'd never be willing to play in a game with him. Insults like that (the one he got warned for) should be strictly forbidden and banned for. This insult? D'awwww. You should also avoid robik, rayn, geript... Honestly just avoid all the vets. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
On March 02 2015 09:51 Fecalfeast wrote: This insult? D'awwww. You should also avoid robik, rayn, geript... Honestly just avoid all the vets. QFT. I have read a rayn game, played with Geript, not sure on Robik but I'll trust FF here. Sorry you were offended by it. I've learned that things can get heated here, especially when townies have a scum read and are actively trying to solve the game. Just gotta try to have thick skin. And avoid all the vets lol. | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
Heck, my name is rsoultin...rsoul...arsehole and probably once a game with Holyflare he just randomly remembers that and starts lolling about it for no reason xP Not gonna say it's pleasant but it was just a comment in a game ^^ and not what Palmar thinks about you as a person I'm sure. Half the time when you see people cursing at and insulting each other around here it's in play lol | ||
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
On March 02 2015 09:46 zlefin wrote: I should add that I consider palmar extremely and unacceptably rude, and unless he apologizes I'd never be willing to play in a game with him. Insults like that (the one he got warned for) should be strictly forbidden and banned for. As a mafia player you should be able to tell if someone really tries to insult you or not (maybe Palmars choice of word was not the best but he was absolutely right in this instance even though you might not want to hear it). If you are this easily offended you will have problems playing this game in the future. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
On March 02 2015 12:17 The Shining wrote: QFT. I have read a rayn game, played with Geript, not sure on Robik but I'll trust FF here. Sorry you were offended by it. I've learned that things can get heated here, especially when townies have a scum read and are actively trying to solve the game. Just gotta try to have thick skin. And avoid all the vets lol. This is probably the best advice, most others have beat me to it. The major takeaway though is that things will get heated and whilst there are honestly 1-2 that will go off the deep end, most people might still say things what they normally wouldn't say IRL - this is a game, and everyone's trying to win. That's really it. There are certain individuals that I have observed or played with and they just don't take well to being called scum, whether they are actually scum or not (usually worse if they are town obv). The remarks you see - it's not personal, and when the game ends, people are pretty relaxed with each other. Palmar as an individual trolls quite a bit and you wouldn't know this until he either explained it to you (which he did in my first game with him) or you played multiple games with him. It takes time to adjust to some of the personalities around here. | ||
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justanothertownie
16316 Posts
On March 02 2015 21:23 Koshi wrote: Was he being an asshole? Yes. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
On March 02 2015 22:02 Half the Sky wrote: There are certain individuals that I have observed or played with and they just don't take well to being called scum, whether they are actually scum or not (usually worse if they are town obv). It is only natural to not take it well if you are being called scum because of: 1) you are mafia -- in which case you must bullshit your way through the good/bad argument(s) against you 2) you are town -- in which case you must make your way through the bad argument(s) against you and even make something out of it/them, not to even mention trying to convince the rest of the people why you are right and they are wrong | ||
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